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Congratulations, Mini, you made the stupidest turn signals ever
- petee 5y agoI think the Ford/GM thing of using the brake lights also as the turn signal is far more dangerous -- when the brakes are on, a turn signal just turns the single light off. In traffic stopping quickly, and you can only see one light, you have a fraction of a second to determine if the car is stopping or changing lanes. I see this in traffic all the time, and nearly been hit by cars that look like they are braking but actually changing lanes. Why are separate light colors not mandated?
- u801e 5y ago> Why are separate light colors not mandated? They are mandated in any country that uses UNECE regulations for vehicle lighting. In the US and Canada, red turn signals are allowed as a cost saving measure. That's why you can see high end luxury cars with LED tail lamp clusters that have red rear turn signals in the US.
- marcosdumay 5y ago> That’s probably too far. I don’t really think these are actually hurting anyone. It's a car. Any stupid thing one does in a car hurts people.
- omarqureshi 5y agoSince the mini is a BMW and BMW drivers are notorious for never using turn signals, this should not be an issue, right?
- Bud 5y agoThe MINI is actually not a BMW, although it is true that it is made by BMW. Nor are MINI drivers really very much like BMW drivers, in fact I'd say that overall as a population, they are quite different. (I had a MINI from 2002-2020. Put about 300k miles on it.)
- flyingfences 5y agoMY2013+ Minis are built on the BMW ULK1 platform.
- kmonsen 5y agoThat’s the BMW X1 and x2 right? I feel the “correct” answer is that the X1/2 is actually minis not a proper BMW since they are built on the “mini” platform and are front wheel driven.
- flyingfences 5y agoUKL is 1er, 2er, X1, X2, and a few Minis.
- speedgoose 5y agoThe electric Mini (Mini Cooper SE) is very much a worse but cheaper BMW i3 too.
- icedchai 5y agoThe Mini and BMW dealers near me are, indeed, separate. They are right next door to each other, and appear to share employees and a repair facility. Strange isn't it?
- xyzzy21 5y agoThe Mini and BMW dealers near me are the same and use the same service shop.
- CRConrad 5y agoSounds like they're indeed not separate, just different doors into the same actual business.
- icedchai 5y agoCorrect! That was actually the point of my message. (I realize sarcasm doesn't often translate well into text.)
- Finnucane 5y agoNo one in Boston will ever see one, so whatevs.
- jameshart 5y ago“The British are turning!”
- pfortuny 5y agoBut you know, they look so “British”! That is a true mental clusterfuck.
- input_sh 5y agoBut like they wouldn't be any less British if they pointed the other way.
- masklinn 5y agoIt would not match the Union Jack pattern.
- NullPrefix 5y agoUnion Jack with COUNTRYMAN printed inbetween it's two halves isn't Union Jack either.
- jowsie 5y agoThe really stupid thing is we have these exact same design of lights on the UK delivered Mini's, however it's just the center horizontal bar that flashes orange.
- kube-system 5y agoAs I understand, US regulations have stricter requirements on the required light surface area. Presumably this design decision was an attempt to meet those requirements. Audi models in the US also light their taillights in addition to the scrolling bar they have in the EU.
- WelcomeShorty 5y agoHmm, I would not be distracted by this. There are so many different indicators in Europe (we have laxer rule than the US on blinkers) that the "direction" or whatever does not phase me at all.
- woutr_be 5y agoI have seen all kind of indicators while driving in Europe, and they all share the same basic thing; a flashing light indicating in which direction the car will be turning. Suddenly seeing a flashing arrow pointing the other way instantly confused me, and I had no idea which way the car would be turning. This is just plain stupid.
- spzb 5y agoI saw a flashing indicator light not an arrow until it was pointed out to me.
- nemetroid 5y agoThe turn signals in this article would be illegal in the EU.
- WelcomeShorty 5y agoNot to be that guy, but you got any source for this?
- MerelyMortal 5y ago> Mini has not heard any concerns from customers regarding the rear turn indicators I wouldn't expect them to: they cannot see their own turn signal lights while driving. If they happen to be behind another Mini, they already know about it and it may not throw them off-guard like others who aren't familiar with it.
- ThePadawan 5y agoI do hope that all it takes is a few customers in a showroom asking the salesman "does it come without those stupid fucking indicators?"
- sircastor 5y agoFWIW, the answer to that question is yes. We bought a Mini a few years back and the Union Jack indicators were an upgrade (not a cheap one as I recall)
- ThePadawan 5y agoCool! I was trying to find out if they blinked in the weird arrow pattern by configuring one online, but it's impossible to tell (they're not shown blinking). Kinda surprising that they're not keen on selling potential customers on the upgrade.
- massysett 5y agoOh, I had no idea it’s supposed to be a Union Jack, though it makes sense after you said it. All it looked like to me was the designer intentionally doing something unbelievably stupid for no reason at all. I guess having a really dumb reason is slightly better.
- thaumasiotes 5y agoIt's very weird as a union jack - there is no central vertical bar.
- danity 5y agoLighten up, have a little fun. embrace quirks. Not everything needs to be generic and cleansed of all personality.
- VortexDream 5y agoAh, yes. Form over function, the driving principle for many insane UX "improvements" over the past 20 years. Personality is great. It's not more important than clarity or other related concerns though.
- Toutouxc 5y agoI would love to embrace quirks in all areas of life EXCEPT the safety aspect of heavy machinery.
- Bud 5y agoSame. I drove a MINI for 18 years partly because they are so quirky and that's enjoyable, but this is simply the wrong kind of thing to indulge quirkiness in. Turn signals need to function well as turn signals. That's vitally important. You can't fuck with that by making the signal actively and hilariously misleading. It's just not ok.
- woutr_be 5y agoI doubt anyone would’ve called it stupid when the arrows pointed in the direction the car would be driving. There’s zero common sense in reversing them.
- williamdclt 5y agoHonestly I'd be fine with blinkers being anything, make them emojis for all I care, _except_ arrows pointing the wrong direction. The quirkiness isn't the problem at all here
- knolan 5y agoFlashing the red brake light is a North American thing. Over in Europe you would have a dedicated amber light and I expect there is a different light than the Union Jack which would be reserved for combined rear and brake lights only. I’ve seen a mini with these lights recently here in Ireland and I’d expect the driver may find their car burnt out sooner rather than later.
- vinay427 5y ago> Flashing the red brake light is a North American thing Nowadays, the brake light is rarely used. It's usually a different part of the taillight cluster which may be red or amber, and most manufacturers (especially European ones, ironically) sometimes choose to use a red one for NA markets. The complaint here isn't that the brake lights are being used, but that the turn signal is designed like this.
- knolan 5y agoI agree, it’s a baffling decision. I had a brief look to see if I could see the European implementation but I’ve not found anything yet. Edit: here is an example: https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0272/7303/5875/products/1_086e8c91-1cc1-49a6-8092-cfa81a2f0536_1024x1024.jpg?v=1589059456 https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0272/7303/5875/products/1_...
- masklinn 5y ago> It's usually a different part of the taillight cluster which may be red or amber, Which remains one of the issues, even if it's not technically a brake light. In Europe red turning signs are not legal. But I can see how the same turn signal in amber would help very little, as you'd still have a very clear, very bright arrow pointing the wrong way entirely.
- Hamuko 5y agoI find it crazy that Americans allow turn signals to use the same red lights as brakes considering how many different safety rules they have. Like how all cars have to have amber reflectors on the front bumpers, which almost all European cars have to add almost as an afterthought [1], or how the door lock pins can't be flush with the door (at least I assume this is regulation since I never see non-flush door lock pins in European cars). And now the most recent one is the mandatory backup cameras, and I don't think I know any other country in the world where those are mandated by law. [1] https://live.staticflickr.com/4623/39623465442_7519e01f0b_o.jpg https://live.staticflickr.com/4623/39623465442_7519e01f0b_o....
- malyk 5y agoSo the left turn signal is an arrow pointing to the right? And the right turn signal is an arrow pointing to the left? How does that pass, well, anything at all without someone saying “that might not be the best idea”!
- chrisseaton 5y agoHow could anyone be confused? They’re on the side the car is turning - like every other turn signal you’ve seen in your entire life.
- input_sh 5y agoThey're shaped like arrows pointing the opposite way, and we've had arrows for directions long before we had turn signals. If I ever see one of those in the street you bet I'll be confused for a split second. Being confused even for a split second is not a great thing when you're driving a two ton vehicle.
- shreddit 5y agoLet’s talk again in the dark and something like 100m away
- atty 5y agoIf I were behind that I would not be perpetually confused. But I’d sure as hell have a split second of confusion, and generally we try to avoid those sorts of situations when driving.
- chriswait 5y agoThe article talks about this: "Now, I think the vast majority of drivers will understand what’s going on and treat them as normal blinking turn indicators, but these indicators hurt your brain, at least a little bit" I think you are interpreting "confused" as "I can't tell which way the car is turning", while everyone else is talking about "This UX forces me to use my brain when I shouldn't have to".
- 5y ago
- allenu 5y agoI laughed out loud as soon as I saw the gif of the turn signal. This is an unintentional Stroop test in a place where you need to have absolute clarity.
- dzonga 5y agosomeone sat down, designed those tail-lights. and got all the subordinates to nod, in agreement. then they later went to their husband / wife and little kids with a smug on their face like they did a good job.
- jdavis703 5y agoDo you know this for a fact? Because it could’ve been some executive told the designer to make a Union Jack blinker. And the designer dutifully did their job, even though they thought it was stupid.
- Invictus0 5y agoJalopnik articles are always so bloated, they would be better off as just a Twitter page.
- ashtonkem 5y agoI don’t often say this: someone should be fired for this. That is a shockingly bad choice that might endanger your customers lives.
- sschueller 5y agoJust like the capacitive touch turn signal buttons on the new Tesla yet for what ever reason that's OK...
- cjbenedikt 5y agoMy humble take: it's actually not meant to be an arrow - although it does indeed look like one - but the part of the embedded Union Jack that lights up.
- Jtsummers 5y agoI mean, that’s not a humble take, that’s what the article is about. That the use of the Union Jack has had the side effect of making the lights into arrows, but on the wrong side (when seen as arrows, which is a natural interpretation). Not that they were intended to be arrows.
- exabrial 5y agoThe turn signals on new Kias that are 11" off the ground on the lowest part of the bumper are ridiculously hard to spot and after fall below the line of vision.
- siva7 5y agoFirst time i seriously thought someone pretty high in the chain should get fired over a design
- codeduck 5y agoHow hard is it to go: oh, the left hand side indicator is blinking. It's possible they might turn left. It's common bloody sense. This is honestly manufactured outrage.
- shotta 5y agoWhat if it’s dark outside. Is that a motorcycle? I can’t tell. I guess that motorcycle is turning left.
- codeduck 5y agoIf you're following close enough that this is an issue then you are driving too close for the conditions.
- loloquwowndueo 5y agoIf it’s dark, both rear red lights will be on. It could be motorcycles, if they are really close together but that sounds unlikely.
- codeduck 5y agoEven in the event of failed lights, the clusters have reflective sections that will illuminate in response to your own lights.
- shotta 5y agoWhat I failed to articulate (I can’t get my brain to boot this morning) is that a decent amount of motorcycles use arrows as their turn indicators. When I see a blinking arrow at night, I assume it’s a bike.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- loloquwowndueo 5y agoJust be careful, as you can see from this article it might not be the case. Better to be on the lookout and don’t assume things :)
- CountSessine 5y agoThis reminds me of the colour word test, where you have to say what colour a word is but the word itself is the name of a different colour. The cognitive conflict behind this is called the Stroop Effect and I wonder if this isn’t being inflicted on drivers behind these minis. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroop_effect https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroop_effect
- booleandilemma 5y agoWas I the only one who googled whether taillight-themed nightclubs are a thing?
- CRConrad 5y agoProbably; I think most people got that it was a joke.
- daneel_w 5y agoHow on earth could did this pass QA...
- lttlrck 5y agoPersonally I find the Audi-style sequential lightshow signals far more stupid - and more distracting. These look odd in a static image where the reader has been primed by the title, but in real life they are flashing lights on the corner of the car. The animated GIF in the article isn’t confusing is it?
- masklinn 5y ago> The animated GIF in the article isn’t confusing is it? I would say that it, in fact, is: once you see the arrow pointing the wrong way around it becomes difficult to "unsee" it. I actually missed the issue in the video, the gif and text made the arrow "pop out", and now I can't unsee the clearly right-pointing arrow blinking at me, from a car which is certainly trying to turn left.
- christophilus 5y agoIt definitely made me double-take. At night, I could see it being a real issue. But I agree about the dumb Audi signals.
- CRConrad 5y ago> Personally I find the Audi-style sequential lightshow signals far more stupid - and more distracting. I've noticed Teslas, at least newer ones, do the same. But maybe it's less stupid and distracting when American companies do it...?
- sklargh 5y agoSimilar situation...the U.S. fire fighting community starting using European-style reflective chevrons in the 2005-2010 period. U.S. apparatus spec is governed by something called NFPA 1901 but is highly decentralized and people were mounting them upside down even though they were conforming to the (nascent) standard for rear reflective surface area. The "V" shape of upside down chevrons can pull people TOWARDS a vehicle vs. direct them away from it. Mostly fixed now but a hot mess. Incorrect: https://ambulancevisibilityblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/img_0878.jpg https://ambulancevisibilityblog.files.wordpress.com/2011/01/... Correct: https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-bright-neon-yellow-and-red-striped-pattern-on-the-back-of-a-fire-truck-176090884.html https://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-bright-neon-yellow-and-red... Just why?: https://svigraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Curbside-Rear-1024x684.jpg https://svigraphics.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Curbside-... tl;dr you can meet a safety standard and make things worse at the same time...
- LegitShady 5y ago>The "V" shape of upside down chevrons can pull people TOWARDS a vehicle vs. direct them away from it. Is there any actual evidence of this? It seems roughly the same in terms of effect and attention getting.
- CamperBob2 5y agoGotta love the warning KEEP BACK 343 FEET in the "correct" photo. Where in the world did they get 343 feet? That doesn't correspond to a round number in meters, an integer fraction of a mile, or anything else.
- CRConrad 5y ago> Just why? Just to leave a nice uncluttered center area as background for the shield. Everyone knows the sanctity of graphic design trumps puny safety regs.
- argomo 5y ago> there should be no trouble at all for a driver to understand, when seeing the full rear of the car, which direction is being indicated. This response from Mini presumes drivers have the luxury of using "system 2" logical/analytical reasoning in a hectic realtime environment where they must most rely on "system 1" intuitive reasoning. There needs to be a name for this type design fallacy, because it's not the first time I've seen it.
- thesuperbigfrog 5y ago>> when seeing the full rear of the car, I suppose the Mini designers have never driven in fog, poor lighting, storms, or at night? (When you might not see the full rear of the car) Imagine if you can only see the car's taillights and you see a blinking arrow move the opposite way it points. What would you think you saw? Or better yet, if one of the taillights is out, what would a driver behind the Mini think?
- lostlogin 5y ago> Imagine if you can only see the car's taillights and you see a blinking arrow move the opposite way it points. What would you think you saw? If conditions were that bad and you saw a ‘normal’ indicator flash it would be a 50/50 guess which way it was going. That’s better I suppose but hardly good.
- bruce343434 5y agoNow it's a 0/0 guess because you wrongly guess the arrow to point in the direction.
- sellyme 5y agoI'd say 90/10. The positioning of the light in relation to the road is usually going to be a very good heuristic. However if that light was a freaking arrow I'm going to think "oh, it must be one of those 10% of cases, it's a good thing that indicator was designed so well" shortly before I'm killed.
- 5y ago
- hardlianotion 5y agoMy wife thinks my anti-modern-mini rants are incredibly funny. But I think the car is a list of lazy mistranslations of a design classic. Thanks for adding another example to my list of mini shame.
- Gracana 5y agoI remember seeing my friend’s Isuzu Trooper 4x4 in a parking lot next to a “Mini” that dwarfed it. I don’t hate minis, but that moment made me realize what a silly brand they are.
- robg 5y agoLong history of this effect in cognitive science, have to suppress the incongruity. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eriksen_flanker_task https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eriksen_flanker_task I’m with the author, having the arrows point the right way would be cool.
- JoeAltmaier 5y agoWow what a circular response - people who buy the Mini have no problem with its stupid features. Of course they don't - they bought the car so you know that already. That Mini rep response sounds like a lame rationalization.
- gkop 5y agoYep plus > there should be no trouble at all for a driver to understand, when seeing the full rear of the car, which direction is being indicated. How do they propose to guarantee that the full rear of the car will be visible in all cases when the turn indicator is observed?
- klyrs 5y agoLike pulling out of a parallel parking spot? Don't worry, nobody uses their indicators for that anyway...
- siva7 5y agoIn Psychology there is Stroop Effect. Remember the funny game when asked to name the color of the word it takes longer and is more prone to errors when the color of the ink does not match the name of the color? I guess this design can only happen because no regulator thought that a car manufacturer could be THAT dumb. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroop_effect https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stroop_effect
- daniel_reetz 5y agoYou're right! This is a brilliant example of the Stroop Effect.
- gryson 5y agoThe Stroop Effect is the first thing I thought as well. "Mixed signals" like this just increase cognitive load and lead to more errors.
- gtirloni 5y agoDoesn't this have to pass a government inspect? How's it even allowed?
- kube-system 5y agoGovernment regulations mostly state that it must have a certain brightness and area. It passes because it meets those requirements.
- snthd 5y agoIs there a design advantage to flashing a single brake light as a turn signal? Conforming to the international norm of amber turn signals would seem to be an obvious win?
- toast0 5y agoFlashing the brake light saves a wire or two, reduces the bulb count by two, and avoids another bulb housing. Plus it's allowed in the spec and makes your car look older and more dignified. (Remember when we had to blink our brakelights because times were tough? We're still tough!) Some pickup trucks are wired for either, and you can swap out the lenses and add a bulb to get separate signals.
- oblio 5y ago> Flashing the brake light saves a wire or two, reduces the bulb count by two, and avoids another bulb housing. So? 20 cents?
- kube-system 5y agoIt saves $3 worth of parts for the manufacturer.
- bri3d 5y agoIn the US, there's a regulation mandating the size of the lit area for the turn signal exceed a certain surface area. The European style amber signal area on most standard-sized or small cars is unlikely to comply. This (and regulations around the amount of red reflector in taillights) is the reason why most Americanized cars get terrible taillights with reused brake lights.
- wly_cdgr 5y agoAbsolutely horrid design that is going to fucking kill people. Like, so bad that it deserves to in the next edition of DoET as an example of what not to do. Whoever worked on this should be demoted and the senior person who signed off on it should be fired Also, Mini's flippant and patronizing cluelessness in response to the OP's concern is appalling. This is 2021 are companies really still thinking "no one else has complained" is a valid defense when it comes to design?
- JDeArte 5y agoCalifornia DMV motor vehicle code, in part says 25251. (a) Flashing lights are permitted on vehicles as follows: (1) To indicate an intention to turn or move to the right or left upon a roadway, turn signal lamps and turn signal exterior pilot indicator lamps and side lamps permitted under Section 25106 may be flashed on the side of a vehicle toward which the turn or movement is to be made. If you feel that the mini is in violation by failing to do it's most basic of job of indicating left or right, file a complaint with the investigations division, and this state with the largest number of car registrations can fix it by forcing a recall or blocking registrations until it it fixed by the mfg https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv-complaints-ffinv-1/ https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/dmv-complaints-ffinv-1/
- hexa22 5y agoFrom what I have seen of American cars, this one is completely compliant. The horrible part about this car is that the signals are red and that they are the same light as the rear/brake lights. Which is apparently extremely common in the US.
- spiderice 5y agoYeah that's how a lot of cars are here. It really isn't confusing at all, unlike putting any arrow that points the opposite direction that you're trying to indicate.
- weird-eye-issue 5y agoHow is it "horrible"? It's not confusing at all
- zarzavat 5y agoIf a car is braking and signalling at the same time, isn't that confusing?
- weird-eye-issue 5y agoI can't say I've ever even thought about it because it's never been a problem. I mean it's a blinking light
- gizdan 5y agoSpeaking of terrible turn signals, Technology Connections on YouTube did a very informative (though a bit ranting) video on them in the US. Worth a watch and really interesting. https://youtube.com/watch?v=O1lZ9n2bxWA https://youtube.com/watch?v=O1lZ9n2bxWA
- beardyw 5y ago> Mini has chosen the Union Jack lights to highlight Mini’s British heritage Mmm .. designed by an American, built by BMW, much much bigger, I don't think there is any of the original Mini left. I see an original on the road now and again, and they are really tiny. A new Mini could eat one for breakfast.
- stevecat 5y agoI drove a friend's (new) Mini recently and it was somehow larger than my Polo but also had less room on the inside.
- TheOtherHobbes 5y agoAnother example of Brexit Syndrome - put union jacks everywhere while saying/doing things that make everyone else in the world wonder if you've lost your mind. I wish that was just a joke.
- rawling 5y agoMinis have had this branding for a long time.
- durnygbur 5y agoI've seen the European version on roads and the UK flag symbolics was obvious to me, haven't noticed it's an arrow as well... or perhaps the EU version has separate orange light panel for blinkers? Overall it's BMW, their trademark is to be show off and obnoxious.
- mitjam 5y agoThis is a clever and effective marketing measure: it raises attention, is memorable, people talk about it and it is a statement in line with the brand.
- im3w1l 5y agoClowning around like this shouldn't pay off, and if the marketing people think it does then we need to start increasing the punishments.
- mitjam 5y agoInterestingly they had to work hard to make the design legal - because the Union Jack is asymmetrical which is not allowed for headlights. Not because the design is irritating. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4izR1worekc https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4izR1worekc
- snthd 5y agoPresumably the original amber lights are too small to be legal. Changing the LED colour is the smallest possible localisation. https://www.acarplace.com/2018/01/index/ https://www.acarplace.com/2018/01/index/ >Stylists don’t deserve all the blame. In America, the brake light and rear turn signal must each have a lit lens area of at least 50 cm2 (7¾ in2). The American regulation calls this lit lens area “EPLLA” for Effective Projected Luminous Lens Area. This minimum-size requirement doesn’t exist outside America. It’s not such a big deal on a large vehicle where there’s plenty of space for a large rear lamp, but on smaller rear lamps space is at a premium. There often isn’t room for two lamps of at least 50 cm2, so that makes a design constraint. >American regs say rear turn signals can be implemented by flashing the brake light, so the automaker needs to have only one lamp of at least 50 cm2 per side. Problem solved; the red combination brake/tail/turn lamp is legal
- LeifCarrotson 5y agoThere's plenty of room, the Mini is 56" high and 68" wide. There's space for two lights each smaller than a soda can. The stylists and sales targets have more weight than safety-minded regulators or consumers, so the stylists can veto any changes that add a color like yellow or increase the size of the lights.
- cf100clunk 5y agoMINI: "Motorist In Navigational Illogic."
- u801e 5y agoThere are even worse implementations. In the US and Canada where red color rear turn signals are permitted as a cost saving measure, you will see implementations where you have to discern a blinking red light surrounded by an illuminated solid red light (when the brakes are applied).
- quantum_state 5y agoGod help the designers and engineers at Mini, Amen!
- bdamm 5y agoPhenomenal example of terrible industrial design. Now can anyone shed light on how this miserable design choice made it all the way to production? Mini has a history of this, also interesting is why people don’t just stop buying these cars entirely.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dorkwood 5y agoTo me, this sends another signal. One that says "don't work at Mini". If something like this is able to make it all the way through design, production and testing -- with no one raising a red flag along the way -- what other less visible but equally bone-headed ideas are making it into their cars?
- H8crilA 5y agoYou have a point, but it's not that clear cut. Large corporations are quite non-uniform and decision making is sometimes random. For example, remember YouTube Red? A quite boneheaded decision, yet I'm told there are many many good areas to work in at Google.
- dustintrex 5y agoYou can't really blame Google's engineering department for naming decisions made by branding/marketing. In the Mini case, though, both had to sign off on the feature, since it's implemented in hardware.
- dafoex 5y agoI think the problem lies, as usual, with america. These lamp clusters were designed in a European environment where we have brake lights and turn indicators. By the time the design was nearing production it was probably too late to cancel when they realised that some parts of this planet have the boneheaded idea that flashing the red stop light was a good idea. Mini therefore had three options: 1) Sell the global spec in the states, which they can't do because there will be at least one state who thinks its too foreign or "un american". 2) Don't sell in the states, which I guess they could do since this is a factory modification and not part of the standard spec, but now they have a lot of undesirable cars because you can no longer visually distinguish the up-specced car from the basic model. 3) Change the orange bulb for red and sell cars to the boneheaded (and dangerous) american standard of flashing the stop lights.
- breakingcups 5y ago> By the time the design was nearing production it was probably too late to cancel when they realised that some parts of this planet have the boneheaded idea that flashing the red stop light was a good idea If only designing cars is what they did for a living..
- MattRix 5y agoI’m on mobile so I don’t have ads blocked and Jalopnik is just awful to read. There’s a giant ad every sentence or two. The modern web is a disaster.
- busymom0 5y agoI find reader mode helps in such articles. I have set my hacker news app to automatically use reader mode when available.
- pokstad 5y agoIt’s free content. If it was in a plain text file with no ads Jalopnik wouldn’t get paid.
- MattRix 5y agoYes of course, I wasn’t complaining that it had ads.
- travoc 5y agoInstall AdGuard on your mobile device and the web becomes usable again.
- superkuh 5y agoI'm on desktop with remote exploits mitigated (JS disabled) and all I get is text. I'm curious as to what the actual turn signal looks like. The text definitely doesn't get across the point.
- CRConrad 5y agoYou know what the UK flag, the "Union Jack" looks like? A rectangle with a square and a diagonal cross on it: A + overlaid on an X . Mini cars have that design, split in half, as the motif of their rear lights. (Half and a bit: The center vertical bar is replicated on the inner edge of both sides.) The rest, the center horizontal cross bar from the square cross plus half the diagonal cross, makes an arrow on each side -- pointing towards the other side. Left side: ->| Right side: |<- The -> and <- bits are the brake lights / indicators, so when turning left it flashes an arrow pointing right on the left side of the car, and vice versa.
- amelius 5y agoGood example of when form over function is a bad idea. This will end up in product design textbooks.
- estaseuropano 5y agoOff topic, but NoScript blocks around 19 JS from different (tracking) sources on this jalopnik article. I will never visit this site again.
- jonplackett 5y agoI don’t even like it when they blink a light that should be permanently on instead of a real indicator. This is another level of dumb.
- rconti 5y agoI'm a taillight enthusiast, but, I must say, it never even occurred to me that these look like an arrow, even after watching the gif. It's much less awful than the Mini Clubman, which, like so many new vehicles, have decided to install brake lights and signals IN THE BUMPER. My understanding is there's an EU (?) regulation that taillights must be visible when the trunk/hatch is open; eg, for roadside emergencies where you are broken down but are getting things out of the back, your lights must still be visible. Manufacturers have designed around this by having taillights that go up with the hatch, but still have brake/signal/various lights way down in the bumper. So you'll be driving behind a vehicle, seeing its normal taillights lit up with the headlights, but when they go to brake or signal, segments 2 feet lower come on. The visibility of this 'solution' is far worse than using lights up high. Yes, we have the center-mounted high stop light, but this is a step in the wrong direction, and makes turn signals less visible than ever. Also, my standard rant, ban red turn signals. They should always and forever be amber, which gets rid of a ton of confusion due to pulsing brake lights.
- ycombinete 5y agoWhat goes into being a tail light enthusiast? I can’t wrap my head around this concept. He used the term Blinkie in the article but I thought it was a joke. Are you a blinkie?
- rconti 5y agoI have strong opinions on their function, and have spent not-insignificant money to buy/install/modify various 'correct' functionality, eg, buying lamps and switches from Europe and modifying wiring to make the 'correct' functions work (amber turn signals, rear fog lights). I'm pretty sure Blinkie is facetious.
- interestica 5y agoTurn signals that are also brake lights are just insane. Turn signals that are also hazard lights are silly too. My personal pet peeve is the use of hazard lights to show a public transit bus is stopped for passengers. They'll then switch to a turn signal to re-enter traffic. There is no discernible difference to the lights when the right/curbside indicator light is obscured by a trailing car. And failure to yield to the turn signal on buses is against the law. /I guess I'm a blinkie.
- wenc 5y agoAmusing to see this on HN. I saw one of these Minis on the road the other day for the first time and I admit I got confused for two seconds. But then again I’m used to Chicago drivers who signal left when they want to turn right and vice versa — it’s a thing here. When I realized that the Mini’s turn signal was one half of the Union Jack I laughed because the design language reminded me of Austin Powers and perhaps it was meant to be intentionally funny and tacky by being jingoistic.
- mthoms 5y agoMini’s statement only highlights the absurdity (emphasis mine): >With regard to the turn indicator light pattern, there should be no trouble at all for a driver to understand, when seeing the full rear of the car, which direction is being indicated So what about when you can only see half of the car? Like when it’s changing lanes or pulling out of a parking spot? You know, like those times when a signal is MOST useful? Absolute idiocy.
- philsnow 5y agoor when the back of the car is covered in snow or a million other reasons
- WaitWaitWha 5y agoOr at night, in the dark, unlit two-lane roads of most of Europe?
- wirthjason 5y agoAt night both tail lamps are lit.
- ashtonkem 5y agoIf they’re working, and if there isn’t something obstructing their view, like another vehicle or fog. Generally it’s best to design vehicle signaling with an assumption that situations are not ideal, just in case.
- giardini 5y agoResult: night-time accidents, especially in fog. Drivers will see a single flashing taillight arrow and make incorrect assumptions. Very severe and fatal collisions and consequential lawsuits will ensue. Cooper will pay, pay, pay. They will issue recalls and beg for leniency. But there is no doubt they f*cked this design. If one of the two tail lights and/or a brake light(s) is/are out then the situation will only be worse. I'd short Cooper stock were I an investor. This will cost them a pretty penny. Gawd, I can't imagine what a self-driving car would see when it is following a Mini down a foggy British roadway. Perhaps someone could model it?
- scrose 5y agoThis will suck primarily for cyclists and motorcyclists approaching intersections. Most of the time they won’t be directly behind a vehicle and will instead be off to the left or right and may only see a single side before overtaking a driver.
- hellbannedguy 5y agoI don't care about the turn signals. The mechanical problems are another story. I have never met a satisfied Mini owner after 70k.
- ChuckMcM 5y agoIt would be fun to pull datasets of collision data based on this version of mini and earlier versions to see if there is a statistical increase in damage to cars while that are currently in a move that used a turn signal.
- rayiner 5y agoHow did those make it into production?!
- CamperBob2 5y agoNobody cared enough to say something. When that happens in the aircraft industry, there are consequences, but the car business is different, I guess.
- CRConrad 5y agoThe Pinto sends its regards.
- tiernano 5y agoI always liked the look of the new mini, and the electric one looks interesting, but then i seen the tail lights... Yea, British Heritage, whatever... IM IRISH... feck off... at least give the option of proper ones... BMW also own Rolls Royce... they dont do stupid things like this with them...
- pomian 5y agoLooking at the images from article It's obvious. They put the led's, into the lenses, on the wrong side. Someone had a great idea, with the arrows. But by the time it got into production, the insides were reversed. Maybe a drawing was mirror imaged, maybe the layout at the factory was upside down? D6one simple little thing.
- davewritescode 5y agoI’d agree with you but they’ve had union jacks in the headlights forever in this exact configuration. The only difference this time is they’ve tweaked what parts of the Union Jack is lit which makes it look more like an arrow. It’s not a good headlight design but it’s certainly not the worst either. There’s a zillion examples of really shitty tail light design on American cars in particular. This is a pretty clickbait article and I usually like Jalopnik.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- Freak_NL 5y agoThe article's text goes on to explain that this is because taken together the tail lights look like a Union Jack.
- anotherboffin 5y agoSlightly off topic, but FWIW the website is also a mess. You’re allowed to read one sentence at a time as they’re interspersed with ads, autoplaying videos and sign-up forms.
- sporkland 5y agoAs a regular bike commuter, and a person that used to want to buy a mini. I've found mini drivers to be some of the most aggressive, most impatient on the road. I assume it's because they are acting out some Le mans fantasy to my detriment.
- CRConrad 5y agoMonte Carlo, not Le Mans. The Mini was big in rallying, not touring car racing.
- seandoe 5y agoAre there no regulatory agencies that review new car designs? Like if a car is to be imported into country X, besides meeting all established regulations (emissions, safety, etc), there isn't anybody who gives it even a once over? This will undoubtedly cause an accident at some point. It'd be interesting to know how a design like this made it from whoever's idea all the way to production.
- PaulHoule 5y agoOn my drawing board I've conceived an LED matrix sign to go in the back window of my car. That could do a good job of turn signals, warnings for tailgaters, etc. I think putting up a message like "I support my local police department" might lead me to getting stopped. One trouble I see is that the view out the back would be partially obscured, Probably the light strips would spaced such that 50% or so of light could get through, but if the strips were lit up either by themselves or something else contrast would be impaired. It would probably be OK with a rear-view camera but I wouldn't want to argue about that with the cops. So for now I'll stick with a single LED strip mounted on the side that can replace my car's image with a McLaren F1 if somebody looks at it at just the right time in the right way.
- mdavis6890 5y agoThe main issue here is that, much like 4000w HID headlights, they only irritate others, not the owner/purchaser of the vehicle, who may not even be aware of what their rear turn indicators look like, or that there is anything wrong with them.
- macintux 5y agoOr like the dashes that light at night even when your headlights aren’t but your DRLs are, so you are completely unaware you have no taillights and it’s very difficult to discover otherwise.
- Johnny555 5y agoI just checked our new 2022 Mini SE EV, and fortunately, it doesn't have this design. The turn signal is more like a T rotated 90 degrees with the vertical bar towards the inside of the car. But I do wish it had amber turn signals, I don't know why the USA doesn't make that the standard since it removes all ambiguity with the brake light.
- oblio 5y agoMy guess? Inertia, cheapness and laziness. Inertia = it's always been this way. Cheapness = it would cost manufacturers a few cents more to retool/find new suppliers. Laziness = it (kinda) works, why touch it? This might be the Holy Trinity of Mediocrity, it's everywhere.
- mkhpalm 5y agoMy wife cares very little about cars but was pointed these tail lights out to me just yesterday. She said something like "those are stupid, why would somebody buy tail lights like that?" thinking they were aftermarket.
- SkeuomorphicBee 5y agoHow is this legal? In what country is this car sold? I don't think it would be considered road legal where I live.
- mlang23 5y agoI am not a car person, so I wouldnt know, nor have any intuition for it. But are "taillight themed bars" really a think? This sounds so weird.
- gcanyon 5y agoThere are so many use cases where this could cause confusion, and actually risk an accident. I thought when I read the headline that I had a reasonable idea how bad it would be, but it was so much worse.
- SergeAx 5y agoI beleive a term "stupid" is more suitable for drivers who may think that blinking on the right side of the car may indicate a left turn because of the LED pattern.
- kwhitefoot 5y agoThat is really stupid. But it is probably confined to the US where stop lights are used as turn indicators. It looks like a misguided attempt to remind people of the Union flag. Edit: Oops, didn't read all the article; that is exactly what they were doing.
- paperoli 5y agoI drive everyday in an area with lots of minis with these indicator lights and have never had a problem with them, I think they look great.
- samjewell 5y agoPerhaps we should invest some of these energies thinking about getting on our bicycles instead
- titzer 5y agoJust drive upside down.
- caenorst 5y agoTo whomever is saying that "only position of the light matter" I invite you to try playing a car simulation game where all the arrows are inverted. Arrows are so well used (especially in the driving context) that the way we react to them is down to subconscious reflex. Imagine that the light is replaced by and neon written ("RIGHT" on the left side, and "LEFT" on the right side) This is stupid and just plain dangerous.
- jerzyt 5y agoDouble down on stupidity. Nope, we're not gonna fix it. We'll insist that we're right and you're an idiot. I hope that a big consumer country, like US, bans this idiocy.
- adolph 5y agoThe Mini turn signals are close but not quite as annoying as GM’s “reverse” light on when vehicle unlocked. https://www.motor1.com/news/233379/gm-reverse-lights-annoying/ https://www.motor1.com/news/233379/gm-reverse-lights-annoyin...
- FridayoLeary 5y agoIt's cute if it's just mini who does such things (union jack taillights), but it gets tiresome when every single marque feels the need to splatter design elements all over the place in the name of product differentiation. Even the super expensive ones. Like anyone cares less.
- mattbee 5y agoThe headline & picture made me laugh because I've seen these for years in the UK and never seen them as arrows. Actually looking at these lights as sold in the UK, they have a vertical bar on the inside, so it's not quite as "arrowy" - e.g. https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/P90289429_highRes_mini-led-rear-lights.jpg https://cdn.bmwblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/07/P90289429... I'm not sure what the motivation is for the redesign, it does look less Union Jack-like.
- CRConrad 5y agoBut that looks like a Euro-spec light, which is not the issue here.
- globular-toast 5y agoI've been noticing a steady regression in the effectiveness of signals on cars which seems to be caused by a pursuit of aesthetic quality over function. The lights used to be designed such that they were large illuminated surfaces (using a Fresnel lens). Now they are increasingly composed of thin lines which just don't work as well. They also seem to be highly directional. The other day I could tell a car was about to turn not because I could see the indicator flashing but because I could see that one of the daytime running lights was off, and I happen to know that happens when indicators are on. They were completely useless. The brightness of the lights is getting ridiculous too. Some brake lights are blinding which is awful if you're sitting behind someone who doesn't know how to use the handbrake. Half the cars on the road seem like they are constantly using high beam lights on the front now. I've even flashed oncoming cars before, only to be flashed back as they weren't even using high beams. It's making driving at night really unbearable.
- alkonaut 5y agoApart from the US (where paper checks still circulate and I assume fax machines are everywhere) are there other places where blinking the red tail light is an acceptable indicator signal? What’s wrong with just mandating indicator ligts? Every car manufacturer can make them - because obviously they are required elsewhere - so why go through the trouble and cost of manufacturing a worse solution as well?
- fimdomeio 5y agoBut what was the problem that Mini was trying to solve here? Did they thought that turn signals has they currently exist pose any kind of perception problem?
- fctorial 5y agoThis should be illegal because it's going to cause accidents. Someone behind one of these cars is going to get distracted and crash.
- brunoborges 5y agoWhy can't the US simply require auto makers to use a damn yellow light for turn signals? This is common in almost every country. Yet in the US (and Canada, btw), we get the stupid Red color for break and turn signals. Such annoyance.
- nimbius 5y agoMini has always struck me as a gimmick on wheels. In the US The cars sole purpose is an ego stroke for insufferable anglophiles... the kind who refer to every bar as a pub and flog the premier league like some sort of religious talisman. Its built in mexico, owned by BMW and speaking as someone who makes a living working on cars, is a piece of garbage in ways only BMW could aspire to achieve. Agonizing turbo locations, self destructing interference engines that exist to skirt the warranty claims department, and a transmission configuration that makes a lada look positively formula one by comparison. And now finally the Union jack themes come to bite them in the ass. Save your money and buy a Mazda CX crossover.
- regnull 5y ago> Its built in mexico ??? MINI’s manufacturing home is in Oxford, England, on the same site where cars have been produced for over 100 years. In addition to Plant Oxford, some MINI vehicles are assembled at the VDL NedCar plant in the city of Born in the Netherlands, and at the Magna Steyr facility in Graz, Austria. https://www.miniusa.com/footer-navigation/faq/faq-slide-8.html https://www.miniusa.com/footer-navigation/faq/faq-slide-8.ht...
- WalterBright 5y agoReminds me of official aviation-speak where "takeoff power" means firewall the throttle, for things like taking off. Until one day the copilot heard it as "take off power" and chopped the throttle, resulting in a crash. Military aviation had to learn that the hard way, too. These sort of mistakes seem stupidly obvious, but it's only when you see it. For example, on Windows 95 the "turn off" button was infamously labeled "Start".
- CRConrad 5y ago> For example, on Windows 95 the "turn off" button was infamously labeled "Start". Windows 95 to Windows 7, IIRC. But, in fairness, it did do a lot of stuff besides turn off, among them to start applications.
- krick 5y agoI don't find it surprising some designer thought it was cool. And too everybody, calling this "idiotic" (the journalist included — well, especially him): I'm sure you are making decisions as idiotic as this in your professional work once in a while, and even manage to think that they were good. It's normal. I am surprised, though, if this car passed certification. If there's no rule that makes it possible to forbid driving this, there should be. There shouldn't be much room left for guesswork to decide if it's dangerous or not, tired people behind the wheel do all kinds of stupid shit, you shouldn't push them further.
- dunco 5y agoLenovo have committed a similar crime with their camera shutter design that includes the red dot from the thinkpad logo, totally ignoring that a red dot/light in the context of a camera has been used to indicate a recording state for a long time. Lenovo's Camera is in the off/disabled/shuttered position when the red dot is visible. Although of little consequence in reality, the idea that some exec thought this would help the brand blows my mind. It definitely detracts from Lenovo's image in my mind and indicates that they care more about advertising to me than good design.
- userbinator 5y agototally ignoring that a red dot/light in the context of a camera has been used to indicate a recording state for a long time That's a separate recording light, not a red dot right in front of the lens. Lenovo's Camera is in the off/disabled/shuttered position when the red dot is visible. I've never found this confusing, and in fact the red dot covering the lens makes it more obvious that the shutter is deployed.
- dunco 5y agoThe red dot is quite bright, in a well lit area I don't know if I could distinguish it from a dim LED. On my carbon X1, there is an infrared camera or sensor right next to it, so in my case I actually have the IRlens and the dot adjacent to one another as you might expect on a recording device. I wouldn't go so far as to say I was confused by it, just thought to myself "huh, that's kind of silly"
- mNovak 5y agoThe gif at the top of the article seems plausibly understandable, but seeing it in context in the video further down, having a blinking right facing arrow and a solid illuminated left facing arrow, I really had no idea which direction was being indicated and could only infer based on the road lines. I don't think I'm substantially dumber than average, but asked my wife, without any context, "which way is this car turning?" -- She also got it wrong. Seems like a bad idea.
- breck 5y agoI just saw one of these last week in Honolulu and indeed came closer than average to rear ending it.
- lifeplusplus 5y agoWhile on surface it sounds dumb but this is how 99% companies operate. Nobody is interested, rewarded, or even allowed to question this status quo. If you point out nonsense you'd be first ignored, then told good point but not priority, then told not your problem, and then be managed out of the way. Everyone in entire command chain wants to do minimum, and only have praises for superiors. They want to see things work like 1 2 3... And you opposing is you making them look bad and make them work more. They are trying to maximize local maximum which is getting promotion by completing projects which doesn't align with what's best for the company.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoEveryone in here seems to be making the assumption that people will see the arrow and honor it as an arrow instead of subconsciously just seeing tail light and acting accordingly. Driving is so second nature to the overwhelming majority of drivers that they won't even see the arrow. If this arrow was orange and 4ft tall like the arrows used to control traffic flow you might have a case.
- fungiblecog 5y agoImagine if the Mini designers were put in charge of traffic lights...
- 2143 5y agoI'm from Asia, but I have visited USA and Europe. In Asia and Europe, turn signals are orange blinkers at the rear. They are distinct from the red brake lights which are a whole different element. In USA, it's the brake lights that blink when you turn on the turn signal! And it blinks in red! There's no orange. Who decided that was a great idea?! The first time I was in USA, this red element started blinking in the car in front of me, and for a moment I was confused. - I didn't even realise turning was his intention. - When I did realise turning is his intention, I thought the owner of that particular car modified his tail lights, because he thought it was cool. Eventually I realized the brake lights blink for all newish cars. Also, for new European cars (like, BMWs and Audis in particular), the orange blinkers that we get in Asia/Europe actually look pretty cool, with some sweeping orange LEDs designs in some cases. Too bad America misses out on that.
- techzerd 5y agoAn indicator with an arrow pointing in the opposite direction of the indicated turn leaving the viewer to decipher the direction of the turn based on the location of the indicator. Flawless design
- galkk 5y agoAnother example: front turn signal on new Toyota Sienna https://youtu.be/_gPr7a6iZQ0?t=1153 https://youtu.be/_gPr7a6iZQ0?t=1153
- Ntrails 5y agoI am not sure I buy into the idea there is a problem here. The light is on the right side of the car. The light is flashing. Ergo the car is turning right. If it were turning left (as per the "arrow" direction) then the light would also need to be on the left hand side, and I would have to be imagining a whole car exists to the right of it. Which means either: - I cannot move into where said phantom car is, ie where the real car is going - upon observation of the lack of car it is obvious that the turn signal is to the right I have seen a few of these, and I haven't suffered a moment of confusion because I am not looking for arrows to indicate direction. Indeed I have never seen an arrow light indicating direction of turn! It is simply a point in reference to the position of the vehicle. Side note - this is why hazard lights suck. If you can only see one side of the car they're indistinguishable from an indicator and a source of regular confusion in the real world (for me, at least)