8 ms·

How to Live in Airbnbs for the Price of an Apartment Lease

88 points by ofou 5y ago

pharmakom 5y ago
Always interesting to Read how people life this way. personally I can't be bothered with the hassle of moving several times per year... and biggest of all, I like my own bed!
- chii 5y ago
  i don't see where they might store their clothes and other such items, unless they are living out of a suit-case (which, to be fair, might be quite a good minimalist kind of life)
  - sweetheart 5y ago
    I started living out of airbnb’s a year ago, and simply downgraded all my stuff into a giant checked back, a carry on, and a backpack. Everything else is either gone, or packed in my car, which is in storage. Turns out all I really need at this point in my life is clothes, my laptops (personal and work), and a handful of miscellaneous items.
    - jsonne 5y ago
      Yeah we're doing the same actually and between myself, my wife, and our kid we've got it done to three checked bags and 2 backpacks. It's freeing in a way to get rid of most of that stuff honestly.
  - chubot 5y ago
    Yeah I've actually been doing this since March -- not entirely by choice, but I view it as a growing experience. And I'm itching to settle down because of this problem. It doesn't fit every lifestyle. The first issue is that I play guitar and percussion, and that's non-negotiable (I've played every day for decades). So that's already more than you can take on a plane. I bought duplicates on the east and west coast and use storage spaces; it's still an issue. I also bike which is non-negotiable -- I'll be listless and unhappy otherwise. Other things I like having, but can live without for a few months, but maybe not a year: real speakers (I dislike bluetooth/laptop speakers), a single kettlebell for exercise (there are gyms but it seems wasteful if that's all I need), rice cooker and toaster oven (eating out for every meal is invariably bad for your health IMO). This is not a lot of stuff, and it delivers tremendous value, but it's heavy and bulky compared to a suitcase. I'll also mention that working on laptops for long periods is pretty bad for your posture (maybe people in their 20's won't notice YET), and it helps to have more than that. I don't consider this a particularly elaborate lifestyle, but it's already way more than you can take on a plane, and it's actually even more than you can easily take to a Lyft to move across town, etc. So I got to live in 8 different places in the Bay Area and NYC, which has been fun, but it's been a hassle in some important ways. I did pare down my stuff drastically month over month, especially after flying to the east coast. But at the end of the day it would compromise my lifestyle way too much to live like this permanently. I'm surprised that so many people can live out of a suitcase permanently! I've done 7-8 months of major adaptation and I don't think it's for me.
madaxe_again 5y ago
I find it interesting that the author only looks at Airbnb as a source of housing, but it seemingly doesn’t occur to them that it’s also a way to flip their liability (their house) into an asset. I moved to an inexpensive property in another country, and put my home on Airbnb. It yields far more than 7% - more like 20%, and is comfortably enough to live on, as I bought the cheap home here outright.
- seanhunter 5y ago
  That seems a much better plan than the author's, because if things go wrong you still have the original asset to fall back on (you can move back into your house if the bottom falls out of the airbnb thing and you can't live on it any more).
  - chii 5y ago
    you might need to be near your house that you let out as an AirBnB rental, so that you can take care of stuff for it (or pay for some sort of management in lieu). If your cheap housing is far away from your asset, that will have a cost associated with managing the airbnb rental that you need to account for (either with time, or payment).
    - madaxe_again 5y ago
      The management cost is well, well within the margin, and I run a two night minimum to ensure it doesn’t eat the nightly rate. Another advantage is that many countries offer tax incentives to rent furnished holiday lets - in the U.K., for instance, your mortgage interest and utility bills become allowable expenses, offsettable against income from the property.
- wheybags 5y ago
  They could also just offer their house as a traditional rental, with much the same effect.
  - madaxe_again 5y ago
michaelt 5y ago
> I invest the $450k at 7% (I could get private loans at 10% or some syndication deals at higher than 7%, but let’s be conservative.) Are there that many 7% investments that are safe enough to gamble your savings and the roof over your head on?
- xwdv 5y ago
  In this economy? Yes. The S&P 500 alone is up 20% this year.
  - seanhunter 5y ago
    If you invest in the S&P total return and take out 7% per year your capital will dwindle pretty quickly. The annualised total return on the S&P since 2000 has been 3.31% https://www.buyupside.com/alphavantagelive/stockreturncalccomputeavmonthavusesp.php?start_month=09&start_year=2000&end_month=09&end_year=2021&submit=Calculate+Returns https://www.buyupside.com/alphavantagelive/stockreturncalcco...
    - xfhgjxcfgh 5y ago
      The oughts were a particularly bad decade for stocks, one of three in the past century. It isn't fair to choose a test period where stocks under-performed 50% of the time. A portfolio that includes some gold would have performed well enough during the 70s and 00s (gold wasn't a commodity in the same sense in the 30s).
      - qwytw 5y ago
        Still you can't really expect a constant 7% return. Looking at S&P 500 since 1990 there haven't been that many years when growth was between -10% and +10%: 2018: -6.24% 2016: 9.54% 2015: -0.73% 2011: 0.00% 2007: 3.53% 2005: 3.00% 2004: 8.99% 1994: -1.54% 1993: 7.06% 1992: 7.06% 1990: -6.56% in all other years it was double digit in either direction (of course it more often increased than fell). So it's still a huge gamble, if you start this at the beginning of recession and/or need to eat into your capital it won't end great.
seanhunter 5y ago
Anyone who is building a plan like this needs to seriously consider whether 7% is yield realistic in the long term. I would contend that for that yield you are taking some risk which in this plan you can't afford. A very commonly quoted "safe" yield assumption is 4%. Yes you can earn more, but in many cases for more yield you are taking more risk. For example the author mentions private loans and syndications, which carry a significant risk of loss of capital. Since they are planning to live on the proceeds of that capital, a loss would be a big problem, because your retirement income may not be easy to supplement (lots of older people find they can't work or can't easily get a job).
- texasbigdata 5y ago
  Abstracting away your concept, any number could be too high even 4%. Assuming a build up method of risk, which is a practical/theoretical way you can categorize returns across asset classes, you start with the "risk free rate" which often could be the US short term borrowing rate. Currently it's pegged artificially at 0.25%. From there you add risk. So a municipal bond backing a school would earn a 2% "spread" or risk premium for a 2.25% return, and your "Uber but for XYZ" would be significantly higher. Rather than picking arbitrary cutoffs it's helpful to think about returns in terms of where they sit relative to GDP growth. From 1750 to 2010 the equity and certain real markets track GDP growth (not in any particular year but in inflation adjusted terms). Which makes sense conceptually since asset markets should be a exchange rate adjusted money supply expression of GDP growth conceptually. Why does this matter? Germany, for example, has negative rates. Rules of thumb absolutely break as you tangentially approach 0% base rates. 1 . https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/federal-funds-rate.aspx https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/federal-funds-... 2. https://www.bea.gov/data/gdp/gross-domestic-product https://www.bea.gov/data/gdp/gross-domestic-product
- foobar1962 5y ago
  > Anyone who is building a plan like this needs to seriously consider whether 7% is yield realistic in the long term. Funny you mention that... I was looking at my bank accounts yesterday and noticed that one of the non-transaction "saver" accounts offered 0.1% interest for deposits over $10,000 and 0% for less. (This is a major bank in Australia.)
guidedlight 5y ago
The author is assuming a low inflation economy. However the low inflation days might already be over. Annual inflation is already at 5.3%, and not forecast to go down. So that 7% is already closer to 1.7%.
- jraby3 5y ago
  Inflation is measured by a basket of items that doesn’t currently include housing. So chances are it’s significantly higher for most people.
CryptoPunk 5y ago
I hope in the future, people are able to move around the world and live in different cities for 3-4 months at a time.
- LurkingPenguin 5y ago
  The future is already here. Sneak preview: it's awesome, sort of. Traveling and living short-term in different places has many wonderful aspects, but it's not perfect. There are also many downsides/hassles. I also suspect the number of people who will want to do this for a long period of time (>1-2 years) is fairly low. Then you have to figure out where you want to live and if it's not in your home country, you have to deal with where you really want to live versus where you can get residency.
  - another_story 5y ago
    I prefer moving and living somewhere for longer periods, such as 3 to 4 years. It's long enough to learn the language and get to know the place fairly well. That 3-4 months just scratches the surface.
    - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
      Yes 3-4 months goes by a lot faster than you expect. The challenge with staying somewhere for years is that it's not trivial to obtain residency in most places.
- jabbany 5y ago
  It's gonna be extra fun when tax season comes around...
  - heavenlyblue 5y ago
    If I lived in 10 countries a year I would probably not even reach the minimum wage threshold in any of them at the same time!
etothepii 5y ago
All of this assumes there would be no tax on the yield. The big benefit of owning a house is that the coupon (living in the house) isn't taxed anywhere in the civilised world. Whereas interest payments are usually taxed at least as capital gains if not income.
- chii 5y ago
  > isn't taxed anywhere in the civilised world. Some countries do tax imputed rent, such as Belgium, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Slovenia, Spain and Switzerland. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_rent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_rent
  - darkwater 5y ago
    I'm not aware of such a tax in Spain, at least where I leave.
    - kace91 5y ago
      He might be referring to the impuesto de patrimonio, which you pay when your total net worth(including the value of your house) goes above a certain, regionally set figure.
  - the_svd_doctor 5y ago
    Belgium does that? There is a sort of property tax (cadastre I think), but it’s not very high. And rent income is tax free
    - tverbeure 5y ago
      They call it cadaster income, which, according to the Belgian ministry of finance website, is “a fictitious income that corresponds to the average yearly net income of the property to the owner.” Isn’t that pretty much the same as “imputed rent”, after subtracting costs? (I haven’t seen an Belgian tax bill in over 20 years, but I remember that estimate income to be very low indeed.)
bojangleslover 5y ago
Of course it gets better if you get more than 7%!
- wobblyasp 5y ago
  Or 15%! Or even 100%! Yes, life sure is easy when you can just throw a number at the wall.
wobblyasp 5y ago
This is just bad advice. 7% might be achievable, but it also might not be. Are you truly willing to risk everything on the hope you can live in someone else's home a couple of months of the year? Why not just do the same yourself?
jsonne 5y ago
I do this right now and have been living in airbnbs with my wife and child for over a year paying comparable rent we did in Denver. We actually got featured on the Today show for it a few months ago. AMA? Biggest thing is the multi month stay discounts. Sometimes we get 60-70% off. We're in Florence Italy right now in a great location and paid roughly $2000 for 45 days (so significantly lower than our Denver rent). Once you get packing down really the biggest pain I've found is car rentals which seem stubbornly expensive and stuck in the stone age so we prioritize places with great public transit.
- Areibman 5y ago
  How stressful is this for the family unit as a whole? I would imagine that traveling with a child is not easy, and as they enter school, there's much more pressure to just settle down in one place.
  - jsonne 5y ago
    My wife doesn't work so it helps. I would say more stressful around travel days including the day before and after but those are only every 1 to 2 months. Otherwise its fairly normal stress levels.
- stevekemp 5y ago
  I read the piece, and the moment the author mentioned booking in advance I wondered what happens if you've booked in January to lock in lower rates for July, and then they cancel at the last minute? Suddenly you'd have to pay the higher/normal cost and change your plans at short notice. It feels like that's a risky thing to live with - I've not used airbnb so often, but even booking only a few weeks ahead I've had hosts cancel with essentially zero notice so I have to assume that's a pretty common occurrence.
  - hiq 5y ago
    > I've not used airbnb so often, but even booking only a few weeks ahead I've had hosts cancel with essentially zero notice I have little experience with airbnb as well, but don't they help you find another one in this case? Maybe with discounts even?
ptero 5y ago
First, I will add another vote to "don't assume a 7% return" camp. Others already mentioned inflation, 7% average over 20 yrs vs needing 7% every year, etc. But just as much as economics, consider a requirement to move every year or every few months. People, especially as they get older, tend to like knowing they have a home where they can spend as long as they want, where they know their neighbors, etc. It might not feel like a big thing until one loses it. Personally, I would consider downsizing and if needed do occasional work for travel money. My 2c.
jabbany 5y ago
> You can deduct some for house appreciation I mean... in some markets price on housing can do something like 10%/yr... so real estate _is_ the relatively stable investment that you can also live in... This only really makes sense if you don't have enough starting capital to enter real estate...
idiot900 5y ago
I did this for a few months when my house construction was delayed. Living out of a suitcase, even in relatively nice Airbnbs, was soul-sucking. No choice of mattress, a limited wardrobe, same-y IKEA decor everywhere. Not having a true "home base" was no fun. Wouldn't recommend it unless you really have the personality for it.
- ipqk 5y ago
  It really depends on your intent. If your intent is to just have a temporary place to live until your permanent place is ready, yeah, it's never going to feel like home and you're going to hate it. If your intent is to use your new freedom and live and explore new neighborhoods or cities, then it can be exciting.
  - rout39574 5y ago
    I won't say there's something "wrong" about someone who feels comfortable to be permanently in so rootless an existence I will suggest that they're way out on the tail of the distribution, and their experience of the lifestyle is unlikely to be a good guide for a randomly selected other human.
    - hsx 5y ago
      I’m confused by this comment. Humans were nomadic for thousands of years, you could even say we’re predisposed to it. Why shouldn’t one feel comfortable in a permanently “rootless” existence?
      - debo_ 5y ago
        I have to imagine that "nomadic in tribes" is different than "I live alone in a string of airbnbs."
      - Mikeb85 5y ago
        Humans likely weren't nomadic by choice, and most societies settled down the second they had the ability to do so. Even among nomadic groups, most ventured to and from the same places and would stay settled for large portions of the year.
readingnews 5y ago
> House sells for $450k after realtor’s fees Hrm, this person is not average. "According to Zillow, the typical value of U.S. homes is $269,039 as of January 2021, a 9.1% increase from January 2020." [1] [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/median-home-price-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/median-home...
- gamechangr 5y ago
  And clearly he/she own it entirely. I would think that most people have a mortgage and do not own their property free and clear.
Ayesh 5y ago
I've been living with my backpack for a few years now, with 3-4 month breaks in between trips. You can certainly have a bunch of new experiences and achieve a comfortable and quality life more expat-friendly places. Croatia, Serbia, Georgia, etc are slow enough to feel home, but are also affordable. South Eastern Asian countries also make a very nice experience. I suppose the issue never is the money. Of course it is cheaper to live in cheaper cities that provide good value and comforts you are looking for. However, the real cost is the lack of feeling _real_ home. I can cope with the feeling that I will eventually leave this city, and all the friendships and relationships you build will come to an end. I don't think that kind of life isn't suitable for if you can't make you mind to turn a new chapter every few months. That, and finding a good Airbnb can be very difficult, specially when you are not familiar with a city. In Ho Chi Minh City, for example, it took me nearly three months to find an apartment that would eventually suit my life, and the time in between isn't really that fun, nor inexpensive.
netfortius 5y ago
Doing exactly this, but with VRBO, which has better pricing than Airbnb, especially for 3-6 months - France - $900/month fully furnished, utilities, internet, etc. included, while equivalent unfurnished apt rental for same surface and area of the city is approx $1.2k, for 1-3 yrs rental. Even better - after the first iteration of such, some owners are willing to take the apt off VRBO, then rent direct, for longer, as they got to know whom they're dealing with.
- timo555 5y ago
  I would venture that many owners are willing to rent direct and save the airBnB fees if they can meet you in person. I've been living in Spain for the last couple of years with normal 1 year leases. This year however I didn't know if I would be able to commit to another year so I started looking for multi-month AirBnB rentals. My current 1 year lease is 920€/month (with utilities about 1000€) for a furnished 2 bedroom apartment with a great view of the beach. All of the AirBnB's I was looking at even with the ~50% monthly discount were showing around 1700€/month. I picked 3 I liked and messaged them through AirBnB that I was living in the area and I would like to check out the apartment in person but I can only afford 900€/month. All 3 replied to me with counter offers between 1100€ and 1300€. I picked the one I liked best, met it person, and we agreed on 1000€/month for a 3.5 month lease including all utilities. We signed a lease contract on the side and both avoided the fees. AirBnB is great for booking a place when you are not in the city but I think you can get much better deals if you know the local market and are able to meet the landlords face to face. TLDR: If I was going to look for a place for 3-4 months I would book the first month through AirBnB then apartment hunt in person in the target city for the remaining months at a steep discount.
ilaksh 5y ago
Well, I doubt most people on HN care about Mexico, but just in case I will tell you what I have seen as far as AirBnb prices. The first place I lived in Mexico was an AirBnb I rented for about $700 for two weeks. It had rave reviews. What I didn't realize from the pictures was that it was literally a shack in someone's driveway. A very nicely outfitted shack with a bathroom and a very secure fence and gate. But a small room. I ended up moving to a place right on the beach for about $775 per month. This was the most touristy area though. Later found an apartment for only $550. The place where I currently am is further south in Baja. Small apartment but exclusive gated community. Now it used to be an AirBnb that was renting for $70-90 per night. But AirBnb can be a pain to manage so the owner listed it with a real estate company. $500 because people are just not going to pay a lot more for a small apartment -- unless they are from the US and it's on AirBnb. So I would say, consider getting an AirBnb at first, but use it to look at the local real estate listings. Or be a good guest and get to know the host and maybe they will want to make a lease in person.
joezydeco 5y ago
"In addition, I save roughly $8k a year on housing expenses – taxes, utilities, insurance, maintenance, etc." I'm no accountant, but the lack of an expense isn't the same as cash flow. If the investment is paying 31.5k/year, that's all you have. I don't magically earn $1mm a year because I don't own a timeshare in a Gulfstream jet. Also, is this your plan once you hit advanced age? You want to be 75 years old, possibly with limited mobility, and be told your rental is expiring and you need to move? I suppose you could buy your old house back but real estate appreciation means it's now going to cost you $600,000.
- atatatat 5y ago
  > I don't magically earn $1mm a year because I don't own a timeshare in a Gulfstream jet. But you do save the time it takes to become a CEO/celebrity/what have you, via whatever path.
briga_ 5y ago
I've been doing this for a year or so now. I gave up my apartment, and have been driving around Europe, staying in various Airbnbs. The cost is much lower than I would've paid if I stayed in Amsterdam. This is because I can stay in cheaper countries, but also because I am not paying rent when I go on a holiday, go to my family for Christmas, and so on. I am not lacking any stuff, because I can leave some clothes in the back of my car while I keep the rest in a large suitcase / backpack combination. The biggest downsides so far are: 1. Periods of loneliness. I don't mind this too much as I can just use the time to work on interesting personal projects. And I make my trips coincide with friends traveling there too, or already living there. 2. As some have stated here: your own bed is better. The biggest problem I have so far is that some airbnbs don't have proper curtains so I am wide awake at 6 am. A quality sleepmask works wonders here. 3. A lack of a proper place to work from. Often airbnbs will list a desk when in reality it's a shitty table with a bad chair. But this has been much better since COVID restrictions lifted and I have a list of good libraries to work from. The upsides are amazing, and not really worth listing because I think these should be kind of 'obvious' to you if you were to consider such a lifestyle to begin with. One thing I will note here is that there is something amazing about closing your laptop after a good stint of work and walking straight into the most beautiful nature, or an amazing local restaurant. EDIT: I get that the article is kind of pushing this as a money-saving trick to live in the same area. I think it's probably not worth it for that purpose. But if you care to do so then downsides 2/3 above may still apply.
dcdc123 5y ago
As someone who is over one year into doing exactly this…no, you can’t. Airbnb’s are insanely expensive right now and their fees are higher than ever. Availability is poor and you are lucky to even find a decent place in an area you want to stay. Add in parking and internet requirements and it gets even more difficult.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
02020202 5y ago
people in the comments talk about lacking the feeling of home, so i would pose a different take - how about owning few properties and simply cycling through them during the year. for example three homes in three different places and simply following summer to have great all year round weather. does anyone have experience with it?
lbrito 5y ago
>3,600 square foot house. >As of now, our two kids, my son-in-law, and my daughter’s four cats are in the house and it feels barely big enough. That's a huge space for just 5 people. I'm baffled that someone would find a 335 square meters house "barely enough". I went through password reset just for this.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- I_AM_A_SMURF 5y ago
  Americans are used to much bigger homes than (I presume you are) Europeans. Also in bigger homes there's a lot more "wasted" space so a 335 sq mt home is not three times as large as a 100 sq mt home, e.g. in my house there are two landings that take a huge space (comparably to EU homes) and don't really offer any living space.
- tbihl 5y ago
  I'm sympathetic; it would take a very large house to feel "big enough" if someone released four cats into it.
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    My wife would disagree but my formula is max_number_of_cats=max(number_of_adults*2, ceil(area/500ft²))
- didntknowya 5y ago
  depends on the design too. i've been in much smaller houses with more people and sometimes you can barely notice them around when you're in your own little space.
NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
The financial analysis is a little peculiar, even dangerous. The author spends effort calculating the return on the investments they could make if they sold the home, but doesn't consider that the home itself is also an asset. It also neglects the impact of tax policy. The investment returns made would be taxable from the first dollar, but the first $250K ($500K if married filing jointly) of capital gains on a home are not taxable. It might be that the author is really doubtful about the prospects for the real estate market but it seems like that's an important assumption to document for this analysis. The author also makes a significant error in conflating the average long-run returns on an investment with a safe draw-down rate. If, over a 20 year horizon (for example), you plan on withdrawing 7% of the initial investment annually against a 100% stock portfolio, you have a 50% chance that your investment is going to be completely gone before that point. This is because of the volatility of stock returns and, in particular, the risk of substantial losses early in the investment period. N.B. none of the above is financial advice, YMMV, consult a registered investment advisor etc. etc.
vmception 5y ago
Ignoring the rent vs own part of the article, and just looking at the title: This is one of the best uses of AirBnB currently! It circumvents or avoids most local prohibitions against short term stays (airbnbs) because these are long term stays over 30 days. Its one of the best options for having a furnished place already. If you aren't budget constrained its a great way to mix things up. By that I mean maybe you are still renting at a homebase elsewhere without even bothering with subletting, or maybe you do home improvement things in your airbnb such as getting a fan or pillows or dining sets that you are going to leave there, but improve your life while you are there. This isn't stuff you have to be rich for (by US standards), but it is something you have to be in a fairly privileged place for financially, so that's nice. And honestly, didn't these last few years teach you all not to delay satisfaction, don't worry about the most optimal financial situations if you in fact can financially accept the consequences. Doing something like that for a few months or even most of a year doesn't impact your ability to save up for a house or get yourself stuck in a mortgage for an additional thirty years, I mean that's many of you all's plan right? So just live a little and do whatever you want.
appleflaxen 5y ago
What about the cameras in the units placed by skeezy landlords? If they tell you there is a surveillance camera /anywhere/, it's not even illegal for them to hide more cameras in the unit.
- foogazi 5y ago
  > What about the cameras in the units placed by skeezy landlords? What about them? With that idea there could be cameras everywhere: hotels, bathrooms, your phone can spy on you, etc

88 points by ofou 5y ago

Always interesting to Read how people life this way. personally I can't be bothered with the hassle of moving several times per year... and biggest of all, I like my own bed!

chii 5y ago
i don't see where they might store their clothes and other such items, unless they are living out of a suit-case (which, to be fair, might be quite a good minimalist kind of life)
- sweetheart 5y ago
  I started living out of airbnb’s a year ago, and simply downgraded all my stuff into a giant checked back, a carry on, and a backpack. Everything else is either gone, or packed in my car, which is in storage. Turns out all I really need at this point in my life is clothes, my laptops (personal and work), and a handful of miscellaneous items.
  - jsonne 5y ago
    Yeah we're doing the same actually and between myself, my wife, and our kid we've got it done to three checked bags and 2 backpacks. It's freeing in a way to get rid of most of that stuff honestly.
- chubot 5y ago
  Yeah I've actually been doing this since March -- not entirely by choice, but I view it as a growing experience. And I'm itching to settle down because of this problem. It doesn't fit every lifestyle. The first issue is that I play guitar and percussion, and that's non-negotiable (I've played every day for decades). So that's already more than you can take on a plane. I bought duplicates on the east and west coast and use storage spaces; it's still an issue. I also bike which is non-negotiable -- I'll be listless and unhappy otherwise. Other things I like having, but can live without for a few months, but maybe not a year: real speakers (I dislike bluetooth/laptop speakers), a single kettlebell for exercise (there are gyms but it seems wasteful if that's all I need), rice cooker and toaster oven (eating out for every meal is invariably bad for your health IMO). This is not a lot of stuff, and it delivers tremendous value, but it's heavy and bulky compared to a suitcase. I'll also mention that working on laptops for long periods is pretty bad for your posture (maybe people in their 20's won't notice YET), and it helps to have more than that. I don't consider this a particularly elaborate lifestyle, but it's already way more than you can take on a plane, and it's actually even more than you can easily take to a Lyft to move across town, etc. So I got to live in 8 different places in the Bay Area and NYC, which has been fun, but it's been a hassle in some important ways. I did pare down my stuff drastically month over month, especially after flying to the east coast. But at the end of the day it would compromise my lifestyle way too much to live like this permanently. I'm surprised that so many people can live out of a suitcase permanently! I've done 7-8 months of major adaptation and I don't think it's for me.

madaxe_again 5y ago

I find it interesting that the author only looks at Airbnb as a source of housing, but it seemingly doesn’t occur to them that it’s also a way to flip their liability (their house) into an asset. I moved to an inexpensive property in another country, and put my home on Airbnb. It yields far more than 7% - more like 20%, and is comfortably enough to live on, as I bought the cheap home here outright.

seanhunter 5y ago
That seems a much better plan than the author's, because if things go wrong you still have the original asset to fall back on (you can move back into your house if the bottom falls out of the airbnb thing and you can't live on it any more).
- chii 5y ago
  you might need to be near your house that you let out as an AirBnB rental, so that you can take care of stuff for it (or pay for some sort of management in lieu). If your cheap housing is far away from your asset, that will have a cost associated with managing the airbnb rental that you need to account for (either with time, or payment).
  - madaxe_again 5y ago
    The management cost is well, well within the margin, and I run a two night minimum to ensure it doesn’t eat the nightly rate. Another advantage is that many countries offer tax incentives to rent furnished holiday lets - in the U.K., for instance, your mortgage interest and utility bills become allowable expenses, offsettable against income from the property.
wheybags 5y ago
They could also just offer their house as a traditional rental, with much the same effect.
- madaxe_again 5y ago

michaelt 5y ago

> I invest the $450k at 7% (I could get private loans at 10% or some syndication deals at higher than 7%, but let’s be conservative.) Are there that many 7% investments that are safe enough to gamble your savings and the roof over your head on?

xwdv 5y ago
In this economy? Yes. The S&P 500 alone is up 20% this year.
- seanhunter 5y ago
  If you invest in the S&P total return and take out 7% per year your capital will dwindle pretty quickly. The annualised total return on the S&P since 2000 has been 3.31% https://www.buyupside.com/alphavantagelive/stockreturncalccomputeavmonthavusesp.php?start_month=09&start_year=2000&end_month=09&end_year=2021&submit=Calculate+Returns https://www.buyupside.com/alphavantagelive/stockreturncalcco...
  - xfhgjxcfgh 5y ago
    The oughts were a particularly bad decade for stocks, one of three in the past century. It isn't fair to choose a test period where stocks under-performed 50% of the time. A portfolio that includes some gold would have performed well enough during the 70s and 00s (gold wasn't a commodity in the same sense in the 30s).
    - qwytw 5y ago
      Still you can't really expect a constant 7% return. Looking at S&P 500 since 1990 there haven't been that many years when growth was between -10% and +10%: 2018: -6.24% 2016: 9.54% 2015: -0.73% 2011: 0.00% 2007: 3.53% 2005: 3.00% 2004: 8.99% 1994: -1.54% 1993: 7.06% 1992: 7.06% 1990: -6.56% in all other years it was double digit in either direction (of course it more often increased than fell). So it's still a huge gamble, if you start this at the beginning of recession and/or need to eat into your capital it won't end great.

seanhunter 5y ago

Anyone who is building a plan like this needs to seriously consider whether 7% is yield realistic in the long term. I would contend that for that yield you are taking some risk which in this plan you can't afford. A very commonly quoted "safe" yield assumption is 4%. Yes you can earn more, but in many cases for more yield you are taking more risk. For example the author mentions private loans and syndications, which carry a significant risk of loss of capital. Since they are planning to live on the proceeds of that capital, a loss would be a big problem, because your retirement income may not be easy to supplement (lots of older people find they can't work or can't easily get a job).

texasbigdata 5y ago
Abstracting away your concept, any number could be too high even 4%. Assuming a build up method of risk, which is a practical/theoretical way you can categorize returns across asset classes, you start with the "risk free rate" which often could be the US short term borrowing rate. Currently it's pegged artificially at 0.25%. From there you add risk. So a municipal bond backing a school would earn a 2% "spread" or risk premium for a 2.25% return, and your "Uber but for XYZ" would be significantly higher. Rather than picking arbitrary cutoffs it's helpful to think about returns in terms of where they sit relative to GDP growth. From 1750 to 2010 the equity and certain real markets track GDP growth (not in any particular year but in inflation adjusted terms). Which makes sense conceptually since asset markets should be a exchange rate adjusted money supply expression of GDP growth conceptually. Why does this matter? Germany, for example, has negative rates. Rules of thumb absolutely break as you tangentially approach 0% base rates. 1 . https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/federal-funds-rate.aspx https://www.bankrate.com/rates/interest-rates/federal-funds-... 2. https://www.bea.gov/data/gdp/gross-domestic-product https://www.bea.gov/data/gdp/gross-domestic-product
foobar1962 5y ago
> Anyone who is building a plan like this needs to seriously consider whether 7% is yield realistic in the long term. Funny you mention that... I was looking at my bank accounts yesterday and noticed that one of the non-transaction "saver" accounts offered 0.1% interest for deposits over $10,000 and 0% for less. (This is a major bank in Australia.)

guidedlight 5y ago

The author is assuming a low inflation economy. However the low inflation days might already be over. Annual inflation is already at 5.3%, and not forecast to go down. So that 7% is already closer to 1.7%.

jraby3 5y ago
Inflation is measured by a basket of items that doesn’t currently include housing. So chances are it’s significantly higher for most people.

CryptoPunk 5y ago

I hope in the future, people are able to move around the world and live in different cities for 3-4 months at a time.

LurkingPenguin 5y ago
The future is already here. Sneak preview: it's awesome, sort of. Traveling and living short-term in different places has many wonderful aspects, but it's not perfect. There are also many downsides/hassles. I also suspect the number of people who will want to do this for a long period of time (>1-2 years) is fairly low. Then you have to figure out where you want to live and if it's not in your home country, you have to deal with where you really want to live versus where you can get residency.
- another_story 5y ago
  I prefer moving and living somewhere for longer periods, such as 3 to 4 years. It's long enough to learn the language and get to know the place fairly well. That 3-4 months just scratches the surface.
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    Yes 3-4 months goes by a lot faster than you expect. The challenge with staying somewhere for years is that it's not trivial to obtain residency in most places.
jabbany 5y ago
It's gonna be extra fun when tax season comes around...
- heavenlyblue 5y ago
  If I lived in 10 countries a year I would probably not even reach the minimum wage threshold in any of them at the same time!

etothepii 5y ago

All of this assumes there would be no tax on the yield. The big benefit of owning a house is that the coupon (living in the house) isn't taxed anywhere in the civilised world. Whereas interest payments are usually taxed at least as capital gains if not income.

chii 5y ago
> isn't taxed anywhere in the civilised world. Some countries do tax imputed rent, such as Belgium, Iceland, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Slovenia, Spain and Switzerland. see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_rent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imputed_rent
- darkwater 5y ago
  I'm not aware of such a tax in Spain, at least where I leave.
  - kace91 5y ago
    He might be referring to the impuesto de patrimonio, which you pay when your total net worth(including the value of your house) goes above a certain, regionally set figure.
- the_svd_doctor 5y ago
  Belgium does that? There is a sort of property tax (cadastre I think), but it’s not very high. And rent income is tax free
  - tverbeure 5y ago
    They call it cadaster income, which, according to the Belgian ministry of finance website, is “a fictitious income that corresponds to the average yearly net income of the property to the owner.” Isn’t that pretty much the same as “imputed rent”, after subtracting costs? (I haven’t seen an Belgian tax bill in over 20 years, but I remember that estimate income to be very low indeed.)

bojangleslover 5y ago

Of course it gets better if you get more than 7%!

wobblyasp 5y ago
Or 15%! Or even 100%! Yes, life sure is easy when you can just throw a number at the wall.

wobblyasp 5y ago

This is just bad advice. 7% might be achievable, but it also might not be. Are you truly willing to risk everything on the hope you can live in someone else's home a couple of months of the year? Why not just do the same yourself?

jsonne 5y ago

I do this right now and have been living in airbnbs with my wife and child for over a year paying comparable rent we did in Denver. We actually got featured on the Today show for it a few months ago. AMA? Biggest thing is the multi month stay discounts. Sometimes we get 60-70% off. We're in Florence Italy right now in a great location and paid roughly $2000 for 45 days (so significantly lower than our Denver rent). Once you get packing down really the biggest pain I've found is car rentals which seem stubbornly expensive and stuck in the stone age so we prioritize places with great public transit.

Areibman 5y ago
How stressful is this for the family unit as a whole? I would imagine that traveling with a child is not easy, and as they enter school, there's much more pressure to just settle down in one place.
- jsonne 5y ago
  My wife doesn't work so it helps. I would say more stressful around travel days including the day before and after but those are only every 1 to 2 months. Otherwise its fairly normal stress levels.
stevekemp 5y ago
I read the piece, and the moment the author mentioned booking in advance I wondered what happens if you've booked in January to lock in lower rates for July, and then they cancel at the last minute? Suddenly you'd have to pay the higher/normal cost and change your plans at short notice. It feels like that's a risky thing to live with - I've not used airbnb so often, but even booking only a few weeks ahead I've had hosts cancel with essentially zero notice so I have to assume that's a pretty common occurrence.
- hiq 5y ago
  > I've not used airbnb so often, but even booking only a few weeks ahead I've had hosts cancel with essentially zero notice I have little experience with airbnb as well, but don't they help you find another one in this case? Maybe with discounts even?

ptero 5y ago

First, I will add another vote to "don't assume a 7% return" camp. Others already mentioned inflation, 7% average over 20 yrs vs needing 7% every year, etc. But just as much as economics, consider a requirement to move every year or every few months. People, especially as they get older, tend to like knowing they have a home where they can spend as long as they want, where they know their neighbors, etc. It might not feel like a big thing until one loses it. Personally, I would consider downsizing and if needed do occasional work for travel money. My 2c.

jabbany 5y ago

> You can deduct some for house appreciation I mean... in some markets price on housing can do something like 10%/yr... so real estate _is_ the relatively stable investment that you can also live in... This only really makes sense if you don't have enough starting capital to enter real estate...

idiot900 5y ago

I did this for a few months when my house construction was delayed. Living out of a suitcase, even in relatively nice Airbnbs, was soul-sucking. No choice of mattress, a limited wardrobe, same-y IKEA decor everywhere. Not having a true "home base" was no fun. Wouldn't recommend it unless you really have the personality for it.

ipqk 5y ago
It really depends on your intent. If your intent is to just have a temporary place to live until your permanent place is ready, yeah, it's never going to feel like home and you're going to hate it. If your intent is to use your new freedom and live and explore new neighborhoods or cities, then it can be exciting.
- rout39574 5y ago
  I won't say there's something "wrong" about someone who feels comfortable to be permanently in so rootless an existence I will suggest that they're way out on the tail of the distribution, and their experience of the lifestyle is unlikely to be a good guide for a randomly selected other human.
  - hsx 5y ago
    I’m confused by this comment. Humans were nomadic for thousands of years, you could even say we’re predisposed to it. Why shouldn’t one feel comfortable in a permanently “rootless” existence?
    - debo_ 5y ago
      I have to imagine that "nomadic in tribes" is different than "I live alone in a string of airbnbs."
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      Humans likely weren't nomadic by choice, and most societies settled down the second they had the ability to do so. Even among nomadic groups, most ventured to and from the same places and would stay settled for large portions of the year.

readingnews 5y ago

> House sells for $450k after realtor’s fees Hrm, this person is not average. "According to Zillow, the typical value of U.S. homes is $269,039 as of January 2021, a 9.1% increase from January 2020." [1] [1] https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/median-home-price-by-state https://worldpopulationreview.com/state-rankings/median-home...

gamechangr 5y ago
And clearly he/she own it entirely. I would think that most people have a mortgage and do not own their property free and clear.

Ayesh 5y ago

I've been living with my backpack for a few years now, with 3-4 month breaks in between trips. You can certainly have a bunch of new experiences and achieve a comfortable and quality life more expat-friendly places. Croatia, Serbia, Georgia, etc are slow enough to feel home, but are also affordable. South Eastern Asian countries also make a very nice experience. I suppose the issue never is the money. Of course it is cheaper to live in cheaper cities that provide good value and comforts you are looking for. However, the real cost is the lack of feeling _real_ home. I can cope with the feeling that I will eventually leave this city, and all the friendships and relationships you build will come to an end. I don't think that kind of life isn't suitable for if you can't make you mind to turn a new chapter every few months. That, and finding a good Airbnb can be very difficult, specially when you are not familiar with a city. In Ho Chi Minh City, for example, it took me nearly three months to find an apartment that would eventually suit my life, and the time in between isn't really that fun, nor inexpensive.

netfortius 5y ago

Doing exactly this, but with VRBO, which has better pricing than Airbnb, especially for 3-6 months - France - $900/month fully furnished, utilities, internet, etc. included, while equivalent unfurnished apt rental for same surface and area of the city is approx $1.2k, for 1-3 yrs rental. Even better - after the first iteration of such, some owners are willing to take the apt off VRBO, then rent direct, for longer, as they got to know whom they're dealing with.

timo555 5y ago
I would venture that many owners are willing to rent direct and save the airBnB fees if they can meet you in person. I've been living in Spain for the last couple of years with normal 1 year leases. This year however I didn't know if I would be able to commit to another year so I started looking for multi-month AirBnB rentals. My current 1 year lease is 920€/month (with utilities about 1000€) for a furnished 2 bedroom apartment with a great view of the beach. All of the AirBnB's I was looking at even with the ~50% monthly discount were showing around 1700€/month. I picked 3 I liked and messaged them through AirBnB that I was living in the area and I would like to check out the apartment in person but I can only afford 900€/month. All 3 replied to me with counter offers between 1100€ and 1300€. I picked the one I liked best, met it person, and we agreed on 1000€/month for a 3.5 month lease including all utilities. We signed a lease contract on the side and both avoided the fees. AirBnB is great for booking a place when you are not in the city but I think you can get much better deals if you know the local market and are able to meet the landlords face to face. TLDR: If I was going to look for a place for 3-4 months I would book the first month through AirBnB then apartment hunt in person in the target city for the remaining months at a steep discount.

ilaksh 5y ago

Well, I doubt most people on HN care about Mexico, but just in case I will tell you what I have seen as far as AirBnb prices. The first place I lived in Mexico was an AirBnb I rented for about $700 for two weeks. It had rave reviews. What I didn't realize from the pictures was that it was literally a shack in someone's driveway. A very nicely outfitted shack with a bathroom and a very secure fence and gate. But a small room. I ended up moving to a place right on the beach for about $775 per month. This was the most touristy area though. Later found an apartment for only $550. The place where I currently am is further south in Baja. Small apartment but exclusive gated community. Now it used to be an AirBnb that was renting for $70-90 per night. But AirBnb can be a pain to manage so the owner listed it with a real estate company. $500 because people are just not going to pay a lot more for a small apartment -- unless they are from the US and it's on AirBnb. So I would say, consider getting an AirBnb at first, but use it to look at the local real estate listings. Or be a good guest and get to know the host and maybe they will want to make a lease in person.

joezydeco 5y ago

"In addition, I save roughly $8k a year on housing expenses – taxes, utilities, insurance, maintenance, etc." I'm no accountant, but the lack of an expense isn't the same as cash flow. If the investment is paying 31.5k/year, that's all you have. I don't magically earn $1mm a year because I don't own a timeshare in a Gulfstream jet. Also, is this your plan once you hit advanced age? You want to be 75 years old, possibly with limited mobility, and be told your rental is expiring and you need to move? I suppose you could buy your old house back but real estate appreciation means it's now going to cost you $600,000.

atatatat 5y ago
> I don't magically earn $1mm a year because I don't own a timeshare in a Gulfstream jet. But you do save the time it takes to become a CEO/celebrity/what have you, via whatever path.

briga_ 5y ago

I've been doing this for a year or so now. I gave up my apartment, and have been driving around Europe, staying in various Airbnbs. The cost is much lower than I would've paid if I stayed in Amsterdam. This is because I can stay in cheaper countries, but also because I am not paying rent when I go on a holiday, go to my family for Christmas, and so on. I am not lacking any stuff, because I can leave some clothes in the back of my car while I keep the rest in a large suitcase / backpack combination. The biggest downsides so far are: 1. Periods of loneliness. I don't mind this too much as I can just use the time to work on interesting personal projects. And I make my trips coincide with friends traveling there too, or already living there. 2. As some have stated here: your own bed is better. The biggest problem I have so far is that some airbnbs don't have proper curtains so I am wide awake at 6 am. A quality sleepmask works wonders here. 3. A lack of a proper place to work from. Often airbnbs will list a desk when in reality it's a shitty table with a bad chair. But this has been much better since COVID restrictions lifted and I have a list of good libraries to work from. The upsides are amazing, and not really worth listing because I think these should be kind of 'obvious' to you if you were to consider such a lifestyle to begin with. One thing I will note here is that there is something amazing about closing your laptop after a good stint of work and walking straight into the most beautiful nature, or an amazing local restaurant. EDIT: I get that the article is kind of pushing this as a money-saving trick to live in the same area. I think it's probably not worth it for that purpose. But if you care to do so then downsides 2/3 above may still apply.

dcdc123 5y ago

As someone who is over one year into doing exactly this…no, you can’t. Airbnb’s are insanely expensive right now and their fees are higher than ever. Availability is poor and you are lucky to even find a decent place in an area you want to stay. Add in parking and internet requirements and it gets even more difficult.

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02020202 5y ago

people in the comments talk about lacking the feeling of home, so i would pose a different take - how about owning few properties and simply cycling through them during the year. for example three homes in three different places and simply following summer to have great all year round weather. does anyone have experience with it?

lbrito 5y ago

>3,600 square foot house. >As of now, our two kids, my son-in-law, and my daughter’s four cats are in the house and it feels barely big enough. That's a huge space for just 5 people. I'm baffled that someone would find a 335 square meters house "barely enough". I went through password reset just for this.

deleted 5y ago
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I_AM_A_SMURF 5y ago
Americans are used to much bigger homes than (I presume you are) Europeans. Also in bigger homes there's a lot more "wasted" space so a 335 sq mt home is not three times as large as a 100 sq mt home, e.g. in my house there are two landings that take a huge space (comparably to EU homes) and don't really offer any living space.
tbihl 5y ago
I'm sympathetic; it would take a very large house to feel "big enough" if someone released four cats into it.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  My wife would disagree but my formula is max_number_of_cats=max(number_of_adults*2, ceil(area/500ft²))
didntknowya 5y ago
depends on the design too. i've been in much smaller houses with more people and sometimes you can barely notice them around when you're in your own little space.

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago

The financial analysis is a little peculiar, even dangerous. The author spends effort calculating the return on the investments they could make if they sold the home, but doesn't consider that the home itself is also an asset. It also neglects the impact of tax policy. The investment returns made would be taxable from the first dollar, but the first $250K ($500K if married filing jointly) of capital gains on a home are not taxable. It might be that the author is really doubtful about the prospects for the real estate market but it seems like that's an important assumption to document for this analysis. The author also makes a significant error in conflating the average long-run returns on an investment with a safe draw-down rate. If, over a 20 year horizon (for example), you plan on withdrawing 7% of the initial investment annually against a 100% stock portfolio, you have a 50% chance that your investment is going to be completely gone before that point. This is because of the volatility of stock returns and, in particular, the risk of substantial losses early in the investment period. N.B. none of the above is financial advice, YMMV, consult a registered investment advisor etc. etc.

vmception 5y ago

Ignoring the rent vs own part of the article, and just looking at the title: This is one of the best uses of AirBnB currently! It circumvents or avoids most local prohibitions against short term stays (airbnbs) because these are long term stays over 30 days. Its one of the best options for having a furnished place already. If you aren't budget constrained its a great way to mix things up. By that I mean maybe you are still renting at a homebase elsewhere without even bothering with subletting, or maybe you do home improvement things in your airbnb such as getting a fan or pillows or dining sets that you are going to leave there, but improve your life while you are there. This isn't stuff you have to be rich for (by US standards), but it is something you have to be in a fairly privileged place for financially, so that's nice. And honestly, didn't these last few years teach you all not to delay satisfaction, don't worry about the most optimal financial situations if you in fact can financially accept the consequences. Doing something like that for a few months or even most of a year doesn't impact your ability to save up for a house or get yourself stuck in a mortgage for an additional thirty years, I mean that's many of you all's plan right? So just live a little and do whatever you want.

appleflaxen 5y ago

What about the cameras in the units placed by skeezy landlords? If they tell you there is a surveillance camera /anywhere/, it's not even illegal for them to hide more cameras in the unit.

foogazi 5y ago
> What about the cameras in the units placed by skeezy landlords? What about them? With that idea there could be cameras everywhere: hotels, bathrooms, your phone can spy on you, etc