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Good, though in practice it's not the charger the problem, I use the same USB plug everywhere, it's Apple and their cable. Right now I always need with me a mic

Good, though in practice it's not the charger the problem, I use the same USB plug everywhere, it's Apple and their cable. Right now I always need with me a micro USB cable, an USB-C one, and Lightning, because Apple thinks different™. What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones?

mschuster91 5y ago
> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? People having a lot of legacy MFi stuff. Car docks and stereo systems in particular are expensive to replace.
- foepys 5y ago
  They didn't see this as a problem when they introduced lightning and USB-C on their macBooks and high-end iPads, though. Instead you were supposed to buy more future electronic waste in form of dongles.
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    I think the iPad pro etc lives in a different category. They're all high end devices that are bought by people who either like tech, or use it for work. People who want the latest everything, and are happy to change things like cables to make it happen. The iPhone at this point is just a phone. I suspect most people own them because their good tools for everyday life. Based on an observation of my parents, their friends, and parents of my partner, I would say that most of them don't give a rat-arse about the port on the bottom. They just want the phone to work with the cables they already have. For many of these people an iPhone and iPad Air will be the only computers they own. I appreciate that my point is a little undermined by the new iPad Air, but I suspect that iPhone will go to wireless only charging, something the iPad can't do, and Apple don't want to go through two transitions in less than 5 years.
  - mschuster91 5y ago
    USB-C to USB-A dongles were and are cheap, and USB-C/TB on MacBooks enabled one-cable docking solutions for the first time on the MBP platform so people actually welcomed that.
  - ksec 5y ago
    >They didn't see this as a problem when they introduced lightning Apple now ship more lightning cable in a single year than all the 30 Pin exist in the ecosystem combined. The scale is just different.
  - theranger 5y ago
    And this is not a problem for MacBooks and iPads. Nobody docks them in a cradle or to a car phone stand.
- Reason077 5y ago
  Most car docks I’ve seen had a swappable base plate to accommodate either lightning or USB C. Now days of course, they’re all moving to wireless charging anyway.
  - janlaureys 5y ago
    My car has two wireless charge pads and it's honestly one of the best features.
- smashah 5y ago
  This concern does not translate well to anybody wanting to switch platforms. This level of sunk cost fallacy would not fly as an excuse for any other technology, let alone on HN.
- hexa22 5y ago
  I have never seen a lightning dock ever. Docks seemed to die after the 30 pin was discontinued. Every car I have seen now uses Bluetooth and has a usb A port for cables.
deepsun 5y ago
$29? https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD819AM/A/lightning-to-usb-cable-2-m https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD819AM/A/lightning-to-us...
jve 5y ago
You can get away with 1 cable actually :) That's what I do. Be it car, home - it is convenient to have any port available. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001490533074.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001490533074.html
- zo1 5y ago
  Is that the exact one you've ordered from them before? Is it reliable, can fast charge, etc? I've found usb cables such a huge hit and miss, even buying from "reputable" places, as they just re-sell cheap chinese knockoffs that don't work.
  - sbuk 5y ago
    I have quite a few branded ones from companies giving them away at conferences. They work well enough.
  - jve 5y ago
    I have another thst doesnt support data or quickcharge. But does charge devices so OK for me. A basic one. Actually stumbled on this right now and if I ever need another one, will give this a go.
  - ThatPlayer 5y ago
    I haven't tried that cable, but I've had a good experience with that shop (Baseus). Unlike Amazon, Aliexpress doesn't comingle listings, so generally I shop by seller I have good experiences with, or just popular ones as they list the number of times an item has been purchased.
avianlyric 5y ago
Probably they think they can make the jump to a completely wireless phone before any USB-C mandates come in. Apple's timing with the lighting port wasn't great, with it arriving just before USB-C, and I imagine they're very reluctant to change the port on their phones because people already have lightning cables everywhere. Personally I would love to see USB-C on my iPhone, but I look at my parents, and having the port change for them would be a pain in the arse. All their cables are lightning cables, they don't have any USB-C devices, and ofcourse, all of their cables are the ones that came in the box. I suspect a significant portion of Apple's customers fall into that category.
- amelius 5y ago
  > Probably they think they can make the jump to a completely wireless phone before any USB-C mandates come in. What is the efficiency of wireless charging?
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    I'm not advocating for wireless charging, I'm simply answering the question posed.
  - iSnow 5y ago
    Not great, but better than I personally expected: "Inductive charging is not as efficient as direct charging [...] An analysis of energy use found that charging a Pixel 4 from 0 to 100 percent on a classic cable used 14.26 Wh (watt-hours), while doing so with a wireless charger took 21.01 Wh, a 47 percent increase. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_charging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_charging Of course problems like heating up the battery and the huge amount of power needed if everyone does it remain.
    - avianlyric 5y ago
      I did some maths (which maybe some should double check), but for an iPhone with a 12 wh battery. Doing a complete charge cycle everyday would consume an extra 5.6kwh over a year! Far more than I expected.
josefx 5y ago
> Good, though in practice it's not the charger the problem, I use the same USB plug everywhere This isn't the first time the EU mentioned those plans, the current situation is basically the phone manufacturers regulating themselves to avoid an explicit regulation by the EU. > it's Apple and their cable. Of course there is always that one greedy asshole ruining it for everyone else. > What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? They probably considered Lightning to be superior but couldn't make it the industry standard without loosing their ability to charge absurd amounts of licensing fees for it.
- gswdh 5y ago
  The only vaguely reasonable argument I’ve heard for lightning is waterproofness.
- danpalmer 5y ago
  > They probably considered Lightning to be superior but couldn't make it the industry standard without loosing their ability to charge absurd amounts of licensing fees for it. I don't think it's this. Lightning was superior to micro-USB, but it's certainly not superior to USB-C. I think the problem is that everyone remembers the transition from the 30 pin dock connector to Lightning. Apple has a huge reputation for just changing their cables all the time. This is largely unwarranted. For the portable devices they had 30-pin for ~10 years, then lightning for ~10 years, and it looks like it's on its way out soon. I think 10 years is a fairly reasonable time to keep ecosystems the same. People don't have 10 year old cables and chargers around. This reputation is pervasive though. I think they're holding off until they can drop the cable entirely in 1-2 years.
  - MagnumOpus 5y ago
    > People don't have 10 year old cables and chargers around. Yes they do, why wouldn't they? I have mini/micro USB chargers and cables that are older, same for USB A/B cables, same for network cables. Only cables that get tossed are Apple lightning cables because they are crap quality and fray within 2-3 years, and other non-standard crap (pre-2010 proprietary phone/camera chargers like 30-pin and the like)
maeln 5y ago
> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? I can think of 3 reasons: 1. A lightning port is slightly smaller than USB-c, so it enable Apple to keep their phone slimmer than the competition in theory. 2. Apple loves to be in control of everything. With lightning, they could make a switch to a "lightning 2.O" cable / port whenever they so pleased. With USB-C they would be restricted by the USB-IF. 3. They can sell more cable and licensing fees this way. With USB-C, everyone will be able to buy a better and cheaper cable than the Apple ones, and Apple won't receive even a cent from them.
- bbarnett 5y ago
  Apple is a little bit like Oracle, in that, they think the world thinks as they do. EG, employees are a bit zealous. So I suggest 4. They think lightning may become a real standard, everyone will adopt it, with licensing fees.
  - kergonath 5y ago
    This argument does not make any sense , it's not even standard across all the iPads. They haven't done anything to make it a standard.
- croon 5y ago
  Where reason 2 and 3 are specifically why I understand why any regulatory body would do something about it. Reason 1 I can kind of understand (if valid).
- eptcyka 5y ago
  I think most iPhones on offer are a fair bit thicker than their Android counterparts. Specifically, most Google Pixel and Samsung Galaxy phones are smaller than all but the Mini iPhones.
  - hocuspocus 5y ago
    Also, Apple's own USB-C equipped iPads are slimmer than any of their phones.
mrsuprawsm 5y ago
The lightning connector is a more physically robust one than USB-C. The male lightning connector is a single flat piece; the female connector is a hole with the contacts on the top + bottom of the port. Compare to USB-C, which has an exposed "tab" in the middle of the female connector, and the male connector has a matching "hole" in the middle. This makes USB-C more vulnerable to e.g. dust collecting, and damage of the exposed tab. Unlike lightning, which can collect dust in the female port, but it's easily cleaned out using a paperclip or SIM card removal tool.
- hungryforcodes 5y ago
  We don't really know that -- USB-C hasn't been out long enough. I can tell you that for durability I hate lightning, because it always seems to have connection problems after a while and the plug itself seems overly complex for what it does. I can't recall ever having any such connection problems with micro USB or USB A for example. In general it's easy to see also that the lightning connector itself is far more exposed to the environment than any of the USB connectors which are largely enclosed.
  - jonplackett 5y ago
    This is weird. My experience has always been the opposite. I’ve broken lots of usb-c cables with the metal bit coming loose. Lightening hardly ever. Any connection problems are usually pocket lint in the hole and fixed with a paper clip.
    - ksec 5y ago
      Same here, I have had lots of broken Lightning Cables, but never the connector. While I have had lots of USB-C connector issues.
      - southerntofu 5y ago
        Sounds like both tech could be improved?
  - 5y ago
kozlowsqi 5y ago
I have like 3 lightning cables, apple deprecating lightning would account to me throwing these cables away and buying usb-c. I suppose other apple users would have to do the same. Not to mention other lightning accessories, headphones and such. Lightning is still included on airpods (pro and max). Furthermore, usb-c is younger than lightning. And lightning was arguably superior to previous usbs (more durable). So while unification sounds nice, net gain would be actually close to nothing, it would be a change for the sake of change, and would probably annoy as much people as it would please.
- InsomniacL 5y ago
  > I have like 3 lightning cables, apple deprecating lightning would account to me throwing these cables away I'm sure that's the same argument every phone manufacture made before the EU legislated it and Apple found their loophole. An adapter to fit on the end of the lightening could alleviate that problem until people have switched.
  - Scoundreller 5y ago
    I use old cables to tie up and support tomato plants… it’s a big bundle…
- shrikant 5y ago
  Keep the cables, and buy Lightning-to-USB-C dongles that will inevitably show up in the market?
  - wwtrv 5y ago
    How is that any better than just buying a new cable?
    - shrikant 5y ago
      Saves on the e-waste caused by throwing away the old cables...
- 5y ago
IvanK_net 5y ago
I think by a "charger", the EU means everything needed to charge a device, i.e. including the cables. Which means, that the charging ports should be identical on all devices sold in the EU.
amelius 5y ago
Can't we have protocol-agnostic cables? I mean, we use hundreds of different protocols over-the-air, so why can't we do the same with cables?
- harvie 5y ago
  3.5mm headphone jack with hole drilled in midle carrying optical fiber would handle all use cases i can imagine. From delivering power, charging phones to connecting several 8K monitors. multiple protocols can use separate wavelengths of light, all at once in single fiber. Hundreds of gigabits are possible, maybe more, depending on the length. While still being able to connect wired headphones.
  - amelius 5y ago
    Yes, and superimpose signals on the power connection, I suppose. The only problem I see with this is that fiber optic cables are physically less robust (you can't bend them as much).
    - londons_explore 5y ago
      fiber optics are pretty robust to bending, as long as you're happy to suffer lost light. Pretty much, if you bend it too much, your connection will slow down temporarily till you straighten it again. That seems like a fine tradeoff. Industrial fiber systems usually used fixed speed, so too much bending leads to a total failure of the connection - hence the strict bend limits on fibers.
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    I'd support this. The sockets would need some work for decent power transfer - it needs to do at least the 150 watts that USB-C can do, and preferably 150 kwatts for charging a car. For 150 watts while maintaining backwards compatibility, all that's needed is larger contact area (curved spring clips) to support 3 amps and the use of 48 volts after negotiation. For 150 kilowatts we'd be talking some cutting edge stuff, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Specifically, you'd probably need to use voltages up to 20,000 volts, 10 amps, which is going to mean you need to have mating and sealing rubber isolators on both plug and socket at least 3mm thick between poles. At these voltages, you cannot have air between the pins, so it must be a hermetic seal. You'd also need to measure leakage current and keep the cable capacitance low enough that when someone cuts through the cable with scissors the voltage can be dropped in microseconds to prevent zapping them.
xorcist 5y ago
> I use the same USB plug everywhere, That's because of EU regulation. All the big manufacturers had their own connector before that, micro-USB started to look like a common connector among the low end manufacturers. This is the next step for that regulation and has been in the cards for some time.
- lifeisstillgood 5y ago
  >>> That's because of EU regulation. I am interested in that (because the "secret history" of many market driven change often ends up being a regulator in one influential area made a good decision - the usual example being California and car pollution standards) Edit: just to say I am not commenting either way on the EU here, or on regulators in general. I am just interested if there was a clear point in USB standards process that EU intervention made a difference. If so it would be useful to know their track record in this when judging this situation.
  - fundatus 5y ago
    EU basically said to manufacturers: Find a common ground for charging cables / chargers, otherwise we will simply regulate it. So all manufacturers apart from Apple agreed to use microUSB (at the time). Apple was still part of this, but decided to simply provide an adapter to microUSB.
  - jounker 5y ago
    I Lived through it. It was not obscure. It was major tech news.
  - kalleboo 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
  - gumby 5y ago
    These regulations aren’t secret, and are usually heavily reported on — the government wants people to know it is doing things in their favor. Before the charger regulations the biggest world wide impact of EU regulations was RoHS. That’s when the EU really started to come into its own as a global player. Did you realize all those old cables you still have lying around have lead in them to make them flexible?
jonplackett 5y ago
I agree in theory that it’s good. It’s a pain having to also have a lightening cable with me. But I will say this - the lightening connector is a lot more reliable than my usb-c connector. It fits better. It falls out less. And it breaks less often - it’s not as bad as the old usb connector but it’s not as good as lightening.
nsonha 5y ago
> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning I don't know about other technical aspects but I really like the fact that Lightning male is just a solid block. It's definitely more durable than type-C
ksec 5y ago
>What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? There are currently more than 1 Billion active iPhone worldwide, even at one lightning cable per iPhone that equates to 1 billion lightning cable in use. And you have iPad and other accessories. I would not be surprise if there are more than 2 Billion Lightning cable currently in use. Seems wasteful to abandon 2 billion cables? Although I suppose Apple could stop shipping cables as well. And only include a Lightning to USB-C adopter. Not to mention lightning is a better design and higher quality cable than USB-C. Apple could mandate MFi for iPhone USB-C charging as well, but that sort of defeat the purpose of USB-C? Or even better if EU could mandate USB-C quality and standards. Say not to crappy USB-C cables. Which would be even better than forcing USB-C on devices.
baybal2 5y ago
> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? It's the $25 lightning cable, which is literally engineered to break.
tinus_hn 5y ago
I think they made commitments to manufacturers to keep Lightning around for a certain period. Regardless of standardization Lightning is already showing its age, it’s limiting charging and sync speeds.
msh 5y ago
Their existing customers will be super pissed having to change all their cables and docks, just like they where when apple went from 30 pin to Lightning.
nathias 5y ago
It's the core reasoning of Apple, it would have their own proprietary chemical elements to construct their hardware if it was possible.
planb 5y ago
Yes, they earn money from the MFI program, but there's no reason to ditch that when changing to USB-C. Remember the outrage among "normal" users when the Dock Connector was replaced by Lightning? Everyone was upset they'd have to buy new cables - even though Lightning was vastly superior. Now, there's hardy a difference in the form factor. And make no mistake - normal people don't have USB-C chargers and cables lying around.
vnlalpg 5y ago
Charging via USB is an idiotic idea that saves the manufacturers $2.27370001 and opens all USB security holes: https://mg.lol/blog/badusb-cables/ https://mg.lol/blog/badusb-cables/ But perhaps that is the intention: the government can just switch out your USB charger and then has access to everything that isn't covered by Apple cloud yet.
throw0101a 5y ago
> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? The original iPod (remember those?) 30-pint connector was around for eleven years, 2003-2014: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_connector#Mobile_devices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_connector#Mobile_devices Lightning has been around for "only" nine as of 2021, having ben released in 2012: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) An article from 2012: > As for Lightning's expected lifespan, the format is estimated to be in use for the next five to ten years, almost identical to the now-defunct 30-pin standard. * https://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/21/analyst_lightning_connector_is_longterm_investment_may_not_be_replaced_for_10_years https://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/21/analyst_lightning... Yes, it's nice that we finally have a supposedly universal plug, but we only recently got here. It may be that they simply don't think it's worth it yet to 'force' people to switch infrastructure yet. That the USB-C ecosystem is universal enough (though I'm sure them switching would push it forward).
misnome 5y ago
> because Apple thinks different™. This is a little unfair, when Apple has been more consistent in keeping the same ports and cables, and moved to generic USB-chargers long before it was standard for anyone else? USB-C wasn't even finalised until 2014; I can't remember how common USB-C was on phones before that, but Apple was using lightning for _years_ before that. What's the e-Waste consequence of changing and forcing everyone to buy new chargers, adapters, cables when they next buy a new device? Suddenly all the cables and chargers you've been using for ten years are useless.
- 542354234235 5y ago
  >USB-C wasn't even finalised until 2014; I can't remember how common USB-C was on phones before that, but Apple was using lightning for _years_ before that. Everyone else was using micro USB for years before usb-C. So for years, every phone cable except Apple could also be used to charge your headphones, Kindle, Tablet, etc. It isn’t just phones we are talking about. When pretty much all devices are on one standard, and Apple refuses, that is where the e waste comes from. All my micro usb cables are still useful for random older products around the house. All my USB C cables are useful for random newer products around the house. My lightning cable is useful for exactly one item around my house ever at any given time. I have zero other uses for it. People don’t need to go out and buy new chargers and cables because they already have them for their other devices. That’s the whole point of interoperability.
  - acdha 5y ago
    > Everyone else was using micro USB for years before usb-C. So for years, every phone cable except Apple could also be used to charge your headphones, Kindle, Tablet, etc. There were multiple other connectors in use (the 4 most common were Mini-USB A, Mini-USB B, Micro-USB A and Micro-USB B but that's not exclusive) — I still have a few of them because that “every phone cable” nirvana was never true at any point prior to USB-C. microUSB's fragility also meant that most people ended up buying many cheap replacement cables so from an e-waste perspective I'd be hesitant to say that was an advantage over the lifetime of the device. microUSB also had many limitations — not just the inconvenience of being handed and easily broken in normal usage but also core features like not being able to supply enough power: many non-Apple tablets used proprietary cables because otherwise it would have taken hours longer to charge. USB C came out years after Apple shipped Lightning and unsurprisingly is a lot more competitive — it's not like the industry didn't learn from the problems with earlier USB standards and I think that it makes sense for Apple to switch now.
thefz 5y ago
> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? Profit. What was the reason for abandoning FireWire?
roenxi 5y ago
It is reasonable to believe Apple builds a better phone. While I can't speak for the mass of Apple customers, it seems unlikely that they secretly want the European Commission to design their phones. This is a bad decision, because: 1. The European Commission doesn't have the time or resources to make consistently good decisions about phone design. It is a minor miracle that Apple managed to gather enough talented people together in one spot to give us the iPhone. The EU can't replicate that level of ability (observe the quite remarkable failure of EU phone manufacturers). 2. If (when, really) technology improves, progress will be slowed. 3. Heaven help us if we need a bureaucratic response to protect indifferent customers from nonuniform chargers. There are actual problems in the world they could be focusing on.
taylodl 5y ago
Simple. They changed from the 30 pin adaptor to Lightning 9 years ago. People complained to the high heavens about it. I recall Apple promising they would keep the new Lightning adaptor for at least 10 years. Guess what? When the new iPhones are released next year it will have been 10 years. The EU is probably aware of this situation and simply want to ensure Apple doesn't try to come up with some other solution. I don't think they needed to do that since Apple has already adopted USB-C on their iPads. Bottom line? My prediction is next year's iPhone is going to have USB-C.
- rblatz 5y ago
  I came to the same conclusion. There is so much hand wringing on the internet about it, and most of these people don't remember the 30 pin to lightning transition. Specifically people don't remember what a huge upgrade lightning was over 30 pin or even the USB standard at the time. The people also talk about huge profits apple is making on charging cables, which just doesn't make sense if you take even a cursory glance at the price of lightning cables on Amazon. I saw numerous multi packs of cables selling for ~$2.25 for a 6ft+ cables. Apple has already signaled the direction they are going with charging standards, and it's USB-C. They are just waiting for the supported lifetime of the lightning cable to be over.
VLM 5y ago
Seems like most USB-C cables and chargers on the market are fake. And as per "the market for lemons" the fake $2 chargers that can't output full power without smoking or have zero isolation from power line or refuse to use X/Y safety rated capacitors will push the good more expensive chargers off the market. The "Real World" is a lot more like "DiodeGoneWild"'s autopsies of power supplies than most people think. Its odd, really, just how much more often USB-C hardware catches fire than Lightning hardware. Submarine patents and the like can't appear on products you invented for yourself. Admittedly kinda far fetched in the case of USB-C. Then again look at historical madness like USB to RS232 adapter knock off chips and drivers written to brick knock off hardware. Nobody wants the wild west experience of USB-C where nothing is reliable or trustworthy. The user experience is just likely to be better with lightning.
- p1necone 5y ago
  There's nothing stopping you from only buying first party Apple USB-C cables.
908B64B197 5y ago
> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? The benefits don't outweigh the inconveniences of switching. There's a mature ecosystem around Lightning for third party accessories. And at 50% market share, their cables are pretty ubiquitous. [0] And they added Lightning charging to other products they ship (Apple Pencil, Mouse, Keyboard, Remote...). Right now, I don't think USB-C, especially with the smart cables that might or might not support every features, is an improvement over Lightning. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...
8ytecoder 5y ago
I buy something like this with all three in the same cable https://www.amazon.com/ASICEN-Retractable-Lightning-Charging-Blackberry/dp/B074CW4QTQ/ https://www.amazon.com/ASICEN-Retractable-Lightning-Charging...

mschuster91 5y ago

> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? People having a lot of legacy MFi stuff. Car docks and stereo systems in particular are expensive to replace.

foepys 5y ago
They didn't see this as a problem when they introduced lightning and USB-C on their macBooks and high-end iPads, though. Instead you were supposed to buy more future electronic waste in form of dongles.
- avianlyric 5y ago
  I think the iPad pro etc lives in a different category. They're all high end devices that are bought by people who either like tech, or use it for work. People who want the latest everything, and are happy to change things like cables to make it happen. The iPhone at this point is just a phone. I suspect most people own them because their good tools for everyday life. Based on an observation of my parents, their friends, and parents of my partner, I would say that most of them don't give a rat-arse about the port on the bottom. They just want the phone to work with the cables they already have. For many of these people an iPhone and iPad Air will be the only computers they own. I appreciate that my point is a little undermined by the new iPad Air, but I suspect that iPhone will go to wireless only charging, something the iPad can't do, and Apple don't want to go through two transitions in less than 5 years.
- mschuster91 5y ago
  USB-C to USB-A dongles were and are cheap, and USB-C/TB on MacBooks enabled one-cable docking solutions for the first time on the MBP platform so people actually welcomed that.
- ksec 5y ago
  >They didn't see this as a problem when they introduced lightning Apple now ship more lightning cable in a single year than all the 30 Pin exist in the ecosystem combined. The scale is just different.
- theranger 5y ago
  And this is not a problem for MacBooks and iPads. Nobody docks them in a cradle or to a car phone stand.
Reason077 5y ago
Most car docks I’ve seen had a swappable base plate to accommodate either lightning or USB C. Now days of course, they’re all moving to wireless charging anyway.
- janlaureys 5y ago
  My car has two wireless charge pads and it's honestly one of the best features.
smashah 5y ago
This concern does not translate well to anybody wanting to switch platforms. This level of sunk cost fallacy would not fly as an excuse for any other technology, let alone on HN.
hexa22 5y ago
I have never seen a lightning dock ever. Docks seemed to die after the 30 pin was discontinued. Every car I have seen now uses Bluetooth and has a usb A port for cables.

deepsun 5y ago

$29? https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD819AM/A/lightning-to-usb-cable-2-m https://www.apple.com/shop/product/MD819AM/A/lightning-to-us...

jve 5y ago

You can get away with 1 cable actually :) That's what I do. Be it car, home - it is convenient to have any port available. https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001490533074.html https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005001490533074.html

zo1 5y ago
Is that the exact one you've ordered from them before? Is it reliable, can fast charge, etc? I've found usb cables such a huge hit and miss, even buying from "reputable" places, as they just re-sell cheap chinese knockoffs that don't work.
- sbuk 5y ago
  I have quite a few branded ones from companies giving them away at conferences. They work well enough.
- jve 5y ago
  I have another thst doesnt support data or quickcharge. But does charge devices so OK for me. A basic one. Actually stumbled on this right now and if I ever need another one, will give this a go.
- ThatPlayer 5y ago
  I haven't tried that cable, but I've had a good experience with that shop (Baseus). Unlike Amazon, Aliexpress doesn't comingle listings, so generally I shop by seller I have good experiences with, or just popular ones as they list the number of times an item has been purchased.

avianlyric 5y ago

Probably they think they can make the jump to a completely wireless phone before any USB-C mandates come in. Apple's timing with the lighting port wasn't great, with it arriving just before USB-C, and I imagine they're very reluctant to change the port on their phones because people already have lightning cables everywhere. Personally I would love to see USB-C on my iPhone, but I look at my parents, and having the port change for them would be a pain in the arse. All their cables are lightning cables, they don't have any USB-C devices, and ofcourse, all of their cables are the ones that came in the box. I suspect a significant portion of Apple's customers fall into that category.

amelius 5y ago
> Probably they think they can make the jump to a completely wireless phone before any USB-C mandates come in. What is the efficiency of wireless charging?
- avianlyric 5y ago
  I'm not advocating for wireless charging, I'm simply answering the question posed.
- iSnow 5y ago
  Not great, but better than I personally expected: "Inductive charging is not as efficient as direct charging [...] An analysis of energy use found that charging a Pixel 4 from 0 to 100 percent on a classic cable used 14.26 Wh (watt-hours), while doing so with a wireless charger took 21.01 Wh, a 47 percent increase. " https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_charging https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inductive_charging Of course problems like heating up the battery and the huge amount of power needed if everyone does it remain.
  - avianlyric 5y ago
    I did some maths (which maybe some should double check), but for an iPhone with a 12 wh battery. Doing a complete charge cycle everyday would consume an extra 5.6kwh over a year! Far more than I expected.

josefx 5y ago

> Good, though in practice it's not the charger the problem, I use the same USB plug everywhere This isn't the first time the EU mentioned those plans, the current situation is basically the phone manufacturers regulating themselves to avoid an explicit regulation by the EU. > it's Apple and their cable. Of course there is always that one greedy asshole ruining it for everyone else. > What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? They probably considered Lightning to be superior but couldn't make it the industry standard without loosing their ability to charge absurd amounts of licensing fees for it.

gswdh 5y ago
The only vaguely reasonable argument I’ve heard for lightning is waterproofness.
danpalmer 5y ago
> They probably considered Lightning to be superior but couldn't make it the industry standard without loosing their ability to charge absurd amounts of licensing fees for it. I don't think it's this. Lightning was superior to micro-USB, but it's certainly not superior to USB-C. I think the problem is that everyone remembers the transition from the 30 pin dock connector to Lightning. Apple has a huge reputation for just changing their cables all the time. This is largely unwarranted. For the portable devices they had 30-pin for ~10 years, then lightning for ~10 years, and it looks like it's on its way out soon. I think 10 years is a fairly reasonable time to keep ecosystems the same. People don't have 10 year old cables and chargers around. This reputation is pervasive though. I think they're holding off until they can drop the cable entirely in 1-2 years.
- MagnumOpus 5y ago
  > People don't have 10 year old cables and chargers around. Yes they do, why wouldn't they? I have mini/micro USB chargers and cables that are older, same for USB A/B cables, same for network cables. Only cables that get tossed are Apple lightning cables because they are crap quality and fray within 2-3 years, and other non-standard crap (pre-2010 proprietary phone/camera chargers like 30-pin and the like)

maeln 5y ago

> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? I can think of 3 reasons: 1. A lightning port is slightly smaller than USB-c, so it enable Apple to keep their phone slimmer than the competition in theory. 2. Apple loves to be in control of everything. With lightning, they could make a switch to a "lightning 2.O" cable / port whenever they so pleased. With USB-C they would be restricted by the USB-IF. 3. They can sell more cable and licensing fees this way. With USB-C, everyone will be able to buy a better and cheaper cable than the Apple ones, and Apple won't receive even a cent from them.

bbarnett 5y ago
Apple is a little bit like Oracle, in that, they think the world thinks as they do. EG, employees are a bit zealous. So I suggest 4. They think lightning may become a real standard, everyone will adopt it, with licensing fees.
- kergonath 5y ago
  This argument does not make any sense , it's not even standard across all the iPads. They haven't done anything to make it a standard.
croon 5y ago
Where reason 2 and 3 are specifically why I understand why any regulatory body would do something about it. Reason 1 I can kind of understand (if valid).
eptcyka 5y ago
I think most iPhones on offer are a fair bit thicker than their Android counterparts. Specifically, most Google Pixel and Samsung Galaxy phones are smaller than all but the Mini iPhones.
- hocuspocus 5y ago
  Also, Apple's own USB-C equipped iPads are slimmer than any of their phones.

mrsuprawsm 5y ago

The lightning connector is a more physically robust one than USB-C. The male lightning connector is a single flat piece; the female connector is a hole with the contacts on the top + bottom of the port. Compare to USB-C, which has an exposed "tab" in the middle of the female connector, and the male connector has a matching "hole" in the middle. This makes USB-C more vulnerable to e.g. dust collecting, and damage of the exposed tab. Unlike lightning, which can collect dust in the female port, but it's easily cleaned out using a paperclip or SIM card removal tool.

hungryforcodes 5y ago
We don't really know that -- USB-C hasn't been out long enough. I can tell you that for durability I hate lightning, because it always seems to have connection problems after a while and the plug itself seems overly complex for what it does. I can't recall ever having any such connection problems with micro USB or USB A for example. In general it's easy to see also that the lightning connector itself is far more exposed to the environment than any of the USB connectors which are largely enclosed.
- jonplackett 5y ago
  This is weird. My experience has always been the opposite. I’ve broken lots of usb-c cables with the metal bit coming loose. Lightening hardly ever. Any connection problems are usually pocket lint in the hole and fixed with a paper clip.
  - ksec 5y ago
    Same here, I have had lots of broken Lightning Cables, but never the connector. While I have had lots of USB-C connector issues.
    - southerntofu 5y ago
      Sounds like both tech could be improved?
- 5y ago

kozlowsqi 5y ago

I have like 3 lightning cables, apple deprecating lightning would account to me throwing these cables away and buying usb-c. I suppose other apple users would have to do the same. Not to mention other lightning accessories, headphones and such. Lightning is still included on airpods (pro and max). Furthermore, usb-c is younger than lightning. And lightning was arguably superior to previous usbs (more durable). So while unification sounds nice, net gain would be actually close to nothing, it would be a change for the sake of change, and would probably annoy as much people as it would please.

InsomniacL 5y ago
> I have like 3 lightning cables, apple deprecating lightning would account to me throwing these cables away I'm sure that's the same argument every phone manufacture made before the EU legislated it and Apple found their loophole. An adapter to fit on the end of the lightening could alleviate that problem until people have switched.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  I use old cables to tie up and support tomato plants… it’s a big bundle…
shrikant 5y ago
Keep the cables, and buy Lightning-to-USB-C dongles that will inevitably show up in the market?
- wwtrv 5y ago
  How is that any better than just buying a new cable?
  - shrikant 5y ago
    Saves on the e-waste caused by throwing away the old cables...
5y ago

IvanK_net 5y ago

I think by a "charger", the EU means everything needed to charge a device, i.e. including the cables. Which means, that the charging ports should be identical on all devices sold in the EU.

amelius 5y ago

Can't we have protocol-agnostic cables? I mean, we use hundreds of different protocols over-the-air, so why can't we do the same with cables?

harvie 5y ago
3.5mm headphone jack with hole drilled in midle carrying optical fiber would handle all use cases i can imagine. From delivering power, charging phones to connecting several 8K monitors. multiple protocols can use separate wavelengths of light, all at once in single fiber. Hundreds of gigabits are possible, maybe more, depending on the length. While still being able to connect wired headphones.
- amelius 5y ago
  Yes, and superimpose signals on the power connection, I suppose. The only problem I see with this is that fiber optic cables are physically less robust (you can't bend them as much).
  - londons_explore 5y ago
    fiber optics are pretty robust to bending, as long as you're happy to suffer lost light. Pretty much, if you bend it too much, your connection will slow down temporarily till you straighten it again. That seems like a fine tradeoff. Industrial fiber systems usually used fixed speed, so too much bending leads to a total failure of the connection - hence the strict bend limits on fibers.
- londons_explore 5y ago
  I'd support this. The sockets would need some work for decent power transfer - it needs to do at least the 150 watts that USB-C can do, and preferably 150 kwatts for charging a car. For 150 watts while maintaining backwards compatibility, all that's needed is larger contact area (curved spring clips) to support 3 amps and the use of 48 volts after negotiation. For 150 kilowatts we'd be talking some cutting edge stuff, but not beyond the realms of possibility. Specifically, you'd probably need to use voltages up to 20,000 volts, 10 amps, which is going to mean you need to have mating and sealing rubber isolators on both plug and socket at least 3mm thick between poles. At these voltages, you cannot have air between the pins, so it must be a hermetic seal. You'd also need to measure leakage current and keep the cable capacitance low enough that when someone cuts through the cable with scissors the voltage can be dropped in microseconds to prevent zapping them.

xorcist 5y ago

> I use the same USB plug everywhere, That's because of EU regulation. All the big manufacturers had their own connector before that, micro-USB started to look like a common connector among the low end manufacturers. This is the next step for that regulation and has been in the cards for some time.

lifeisstillgood 5y ago
>>> That's because of EU regulation. I am interested in that (because the "secret history" of many market driven change often ends up being a regulator in one influential area made a good decision - the usual example being California and car pollution standards) Edit: just to say I am not commenting either way on the EU here, or on regulators in general. I am just interested if there was a clear point in USB standards process that EU intervention made a difference. If so it would be useful to know their track record in this when judging this situation.
- fundatus 5y ago
  EU basically said to manufacturers: Find a common ground for charging cables / chargers, otherwise we will simply regulate it. So all manufacturers apart from Apple agreed to use microUSB (at the time). Apple was still part of this, but decided to simply provide an adapter to microUSB.
- jounker 5y ago
  I Lived through it. It was not obscure. It was major tech news.
- kalleboo 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_external_power_supply
- gumby 5y ago
  These regulations aren’t secret, and are usually heavily reported on — the government wants people to know it is doing things in their favor. Before the charger regulations the biggest world wide impact of EU regulations was RoHS. That’s when the EU really started to come into its own as a global player. Did you realize all those old cables you still have lying around have lead in them to make them flexible?

jonplackett 5y ago

I agree in theory that it’s good. It’s a pain having to also have a lightening cable with me. But I will say this - the lightening connector is a lot more reliable than my usb-c connector. It fits better. It falls out less. And it breaks less often - it’s not as bad as the old usb connector but it’s not as good as lightening.

nsonha 5y ago

> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning I don't know about other technical aspects but I really like the fact that Lightning male is just a solid block. It's definitely more durable than type-C

ksec 5y ago

>What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? There are currently more than 1 Billion active iPhone worldwide, even at one lightning cable per iPhone that equates to 1 billion lightning cable in use. And you have iPad and other accessories. I would not be surprise if there are more than 2 Billion Lightning cable currently in use. Seems wasteful to abandon 2 billion cables? Although I suppose Apple could stop shipping cables as well. And only include a Lightning to USB-C adopter. Not to mention lightning is a better design and higher quality cable than USB-C. Apple could mandate MFi for iPhone USB-C charging as well, but that sort of defeat the purpose of USB-C? Or even better if EU could mandate USB-C quality and standards. Say not to crappy USB-C cables. Which would be even better than forcing USB-C on devices.

baybal2 5y ago

> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? It's the $25 lightning cable, which is literally engineered to break.

tinus_hn 5y ago

I think they made commitments to manufacturers to keep Lightning around for a certain period. Regardless of standardization Lightning is already showing its age, it’s limiting charging and sync speeds.

msh 5y ago

Their existing customers will be super pissed having to change all their cables and docks, just like they where when apple went from 30 pin to Lightning.

nathias 5y ago

It's the core reasoning of Apple, it would have their own proprietary chemical elements to construct their hardware if it was possible.

planb 5y ago

Yes, they earn money from the MFI program, but there's no reason to ditch that when changing to USB-C. Remember the outrage among "normal" users when the Dock Connector was replaced by Lightning? Everyone was upset they'd have to buy new cables - even though Lightning was vastly superior. Now, there's hardy a difference in the form factor. And make no mistake - normal people don't have USB-C chargers and cables lying around.

vnlalpg 5y ago

Charging via USB is an idiotic idea that saves the manufacturers $2.27370001 and opens all USB security holes: https://mg.lol/blog/badusb-cables/ https://mg.lol/blog/badusb-cables/ But perhaps that is the intention: the government can just switch out your USB charger and then has access to everything that isn't covered by Apple cloud yet.

throw0101a 5y ago

> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? The original iPod (remember those?) 30-pint connector was around for eleven years, 2003-2014: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_connector#Mobile_devices https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dock_connector#Mobile_devices Lightning has been around for "only" nine as of 2021, having ben released in 2012: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightning_(connector) An article from 2012: > As for Lightning's expected lifespan, the format is estimated to be in use for the next five to ten years, almost identical to the now-defunct 30-pin standard. * https://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/21/analyst_lightning_connector_is_longterm_investment_may_not_be_replaced_for_10_years https://appleinsider.com/articles/12/09/21/analyst_lightning... Yes, it's nice that we finally have a supposedly universal plug, but we only recently got here. It may be that they simply don't think it's worth it yet to 'force' people to switch infrastructure yet. That the USB-C ecosystem is universal enough (though I'm sure them switching would push it forward).

misnome 5y ago

> because Apple thinks different™. This is a little unfair, when Apple has been more consistent in keeping the same ports and cables, and moved to generic USB-chargers long before it was standard for anyone else? USB-C wasn't even finalised until 2014; I can't remember how common USB-C was on phones before that, but Apple was using lightning for _years_ before that. What's the e-Waste consequence of changing and forcing everyone to buy new chargers, adapters, cables when they next buy a new device? Suddenly all the cables and chargers you've been using for ten years are useless.

542354234235 5y ago
>USB-C wasn't even finalised until 2014; I can't remember how common USB-C was on phones before that, but Apple was using lightning for _years_ before that. Everyone else was using micro USB for years before usb-C. So for years, every phone cable except Apple could also be used to charge your headphones, Kindle, Tablet, etc. It isn’t just phones we are talking about. When pretty much all devices are on one standard, and Apple refuses, that is where the e waste comes from. All my micro usb cables are still useful for random older products around the house. All my USB C cables are useful for random newer products around the house. My lightning cable is useful for exactly one item around my house ever at any given time. I have zero other uses for it. People don’t need to go out and buy new chargers and cables because they already have them for their other devices. That’s the whole point of interoperability.
- acdha 5y ago
  > Everyone else was using micro USB for years before usb-C. So for years, every phone cable except Apple could also be used to charge your headphones, Kindle, Tablet, etc. There were multiple other connectors in use (the 4 most common were Mini-USB A, Mini-USB B, Micro-USB A and Micro-USB B but that's not exclusive) — I still have a few of them because that “every phone cable” nirvana was never true at any point prior to USB-C. microUSB's fragility also meant that most people ended up buying many cheap replacement cables so from an e-waste perspective I'd be hesitant to say that was an advantage over the lifetime of the device. microUSB also had many limitations — not just the inconvenience of being handed and easily broken in normal usage but also core features like not being able to supply enough power: many non-Apple tablets used proprietary cables because otherwise it would have taken hours longer to charge. USB C came out years after Apple shipped Lightning and unsurprisingly is a lot more competitive — it's not like the industry didn't learn from the problems with earlier USB standards and I think that it makes sense for Apple to switch now.

thefz 5y ago

> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? Profit. What was the reason for abandoning FireWire?

roenxi 5y ago

It is reasonable to believe Apple builds a better phone. While I can't speak for the mass of Apple customers, it seems unlikely that they secretly want the European Commission to design their phones. This is a bad decision, because: 1. The European Commission doesn't have the time or resources to make consistently good decisions about phone design. It is a minor miracle that Apple managed to gather enough talented people together in one spot to give us the iPhone. The EU can't replicate that level of ability (observe the quite remarkable failure of EU phone manufacturers). 2. If (when, really) technology improves, progress will be slowed. 3. Heaven help us if we need a bureaucratic response to protect indifferent customers from nonuniform chargers. There are actual problems in the world they could be focusing on.

taylodl 5y ago

Simple. They changed from the 30 pin adaptor to Lightning 9 years ago. People complained to the high heavens about it. I recall Apple promising they would keep the new Lightning adaptor for at least 10 years. Guess what? When the new iPhones are released next year it will have been 10 years. The EU is probably aware of this situation and simply want to ensure Apple doesn't try to come up with some other solution. I don't think they needed to do that since Apple has already adopted USB-C on their iPads. Bottom line? My prediction is next year's iPhone is going to have USB-C.

rblatz 5y ago
I came to the same conclusion. There is so much hand wringing on the internet about it, and most of these people don't remember the 30 pin to lightning transition. Specifically people don't remember what a huge upgrade lightning was over 30 pin or even the USB standard at the time. The people also talk about huge profits apple is making on charging cables, which just doesn't make sense if you take even a cursory glance at the price of lightning cables on Amazon. I saw numerous multi packs of cables selling for ~$2.25 for a 6ft+ cables. Apple has already signaled the direction they are going with charging standards, and it's USB-C. They are just waiting for the supported lifetime of the lightning cable to be over.

VLM 5y ago

Seems like most USB-C cables and chargers on the market are fake. And as per "the market for lemons" the fake $2 chargers that can't output full power without smoking or have zero isolation from power line or refuse to use X/Y safety rated capacitors will push the good more expensive chargers off the market. The "Real World" is a lot more like "DiodeGoneWild"'s autopsies of power supplies than most people think. Its odd, really, just how much more often USB-C hardware catches fire than Lightning hardware. Submarine patents and the like can't appear on products you invented for yourself. Admittedly kinda far fetched in the case of USB-C. Then again look at historical madness like USB to RS232 adapter knock off chips and drivers written to brick knock off hardware. Nobody wants the wild west experience of USB-C where nothing is reliable or trustworthy. The user experience is just likely to be better with lightning.

p1necone 5y ago
There's nothing stopping you from only buying first party Apple USB-C cables.

908B64B197 5y ago

> What's Apple reasoning for not abandoning Lightning for USB-C on their phones? The benefits don't outweigh the inconveniences of switching. There's a mature ecosystem around Lightning for third party accessories. And at 50% market share, their cables are pretty ubiquitous. [0] And they added Lightning charging to other products they ship (Apple Pencil, Mouse, Keyboard, Remote...). Right now, I don't think USB-C, especially with the smart cables that might or might not support every features, is an improvement over Lightning. [0] https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held-by-smartphone-platforms-in-the-united-states/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/266572/market-share-held...

8ytecoder 5y ago

I buy something like this with all three in the same cable https://www.amazon.com/ASICEN-Retractable-Lightning-Charging-Blackberry/dp/B074CW4QTQ/ https://www.amazon.com/ASICEN-Retractable-Lightning-Charging...