21 ms·

The crazy thing here is that it’s not so hard to hit the standard set of “pro” ports — USB-C x 4 (new standard blabla) USB-A x 2 SD x 1 HDMI x 1 Phone/Mic

by biztos 5y ago

The crazy thing here is that it’s not so hard to hit the standard set of “pro” ports — USB-C x 4 (new standard blabla) USB-A x 2 SD x 1 HDMI x 1 Phone/Mic I applaud the modular approach but Apple’s donglevision was the pure distillation of user-hostility between the Bean-Counter in Chief and the SVP, Thin Stuff. And all the industrial sheep who followed them. May we all recover…

wonnage 5y ago
Apple did one good thing, which is make every USB-C port have the same capabilities (charging, thunderbolt). Windows laptops, especially once you get down into the budget section, are absolutely atrocious at this, you have to read little lightning symbols and can only charge from a special port...
- chaostheory 5y ago
  I thought they didn’t do that? Has this changed for MacBooks recently?
  - tristor 5y ago
    It's always been that way on Macbooks. It's also simplified with USB 4, which means the newest Macbooks just support everything under Thunderbolt / USB 4 on every port. Older Macbooks may have had some Display Port shenanigans because of differences between DP 1.2 and DP 1.4 and whether it was over Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1, but all modes were basically supported. Any port on any Macbook with USB-C can be used as the charging port, which is a big deal all on its own compared to most non-Macbook laptops that use USB-C charging.
    - chaostheory 5y ago
      You're right. I guess I was confused by the differences before re-reading it again https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/587669/Are+all+USB+C+ports+equal https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/587669/Are+all+USB+C+por...
    - KptMarchewa 5y ago
      Then it overheats like hell if you connect it from the wrong side.
- kllrnohj 5y ago
  Which came at the cost of just having fewer ports. 2 USB-C ports is a joke even if they are both thunderbolt 3 capable. One is taken by charging if you don't have a thunderbolt dock with power delivery, leaving you with effectively a single port.
moonchrome 5y ago
No ethernet ? WiFi is nice and all but when I get a docker-compose project that decides to pull down the internet I really love the fact that I'm on a gigabit network.
- chrisseaton 5y ago
  This is where it goes wrong. Everyone thinks their particular favourite port is a 'pro' essential, and we end up with Homer-cars with a thousand ports. Just use USB-C. Almost everything can go through USB-C.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    But not everything can go through the USB-C cable you have on hand. That's the annoying bit with USB-C. We may have (almost) standardized on a single plug/socket shape, but we didn't escape the essential complexity - the fact that one type of connection cannot handle all the use cases we'd like it to. We just pushed that complexity into cables. Instead of having to deal with separate data, network and graphics ports, users now have to deal with potentially separate data, network, graphics and charging cables. I'm not convinced this is an improvement, because USB-C cables are a bottom-feeder market that will not hesitate to outright scam the buyer. At this point I'm not sure it's an improvement. I feel like the optimum point would be a small amount of standards targeting mutually incompatible applications. That, or forcing some specification requirements on USB-C, and standardize some capability labels.
    - infogulch 5y ago
      I hope that this is what USB4 will bring, since iiuc, USB4 is basically the IF's name for Thunderbolt-4-capable USB-C. This was enabled by Intel contributing the TB4 spec to the committee, in a shockingly benevolent move that I guess may have been the greatest internal political feat Intel staff pulled off in the last decade. Edit: Oh and presumably the ports on the Framework are USB4, they just can't say that yet because the certification is still in the works.
      - 5y ago
floatingatoll 5y ago
Insulting all Apple users by calling them "industrial sheep" may put you into conflict with having your views given reasonable consideration, not to mention the site guidelines. It's not generally okay here to call people names for disagreeing with your views.
- bwship 5y ago
  I think he might have been referring to manufactures trying to copy Apple's trendsetting lead, not the users of Apple devices.
- Stupulous 5y ago
  I'm not positive, but I think they were talking about Apple's competitors rather than their users. Samsung, for example, dropped the aux port for dongles soon after Apple.
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  I misread, based on replies. Thanks for pointing out another interpretation, all. Apologies.
  - necovek 5y ago
    I don't see how your original comment does not apply if it's targetted to a different group. Even if it's companies, they are "companies of people". Seems a bit disingenuous.
    - floatingatoll 5y ago
      I accepted the correction from others here in accordance with a site guideline about this exact scenario: > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. I was unable to come up with a good faith and plausible interpretation; others found one that I'd missed, and thus I retracted my objection. The author apparently later confirmed their interpretation, but that was not factored into my retraction, and is not relevant to the guideline I'm trying to adhere to. To your comment about "disingenuous", I've spent most of my life being misunderstood for making perfectly logical statements that other people decided were some sort of slander instead of trying to understand in good faith given the context that I'm a nerd with social disorders. So I'd prefer to avoid being upset with someone else over a misinterpretation when I wish others would be less upset with me about them.
whatthehex 5y ago
Except charging and video, anyone needing a bag of dongles probably needs to rethink their workflow at this point. It’s electrons flowing throw a medium. 9,000 connectors does not change that. That was all foisted on us by hardware vendors hoping to create the new gold standard.
mrjin 5y ago
USB-C is much more complicated than most of us would anticipate, I would prefer to make it more specific: 2 Thunderbolt and 2 USB 3.2 gen 1. And I don't know when was the last time I used SD, let's save it for something else. And on a computer, I would prefer DP or mini-DB over HDMI.
dreamcompiler 5y ago
And after going "all USB-C, all the time" on their laptops Apple still can't figure out how to put USB-C on a phone. At some point you have to conclude Apple is fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can.
- elromulous 5y ago
  +1 Also this meme: https://youtu.be/-XSC_UG5_kU https://youtu.be/-XSC_UG5_kU
- Hackbraten 5y ago
  Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. Of course, Apple could pull it off if they really wanted. They’ve done it it with iPads. But please don’t frame it as customer trolling. We’re better than that here.
  - yellowapple 5y ago
    > Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning), but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C).
    - masklinn 5y ago
      > And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) That’s the point though is it not? Apple was just out of a connector switch, which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. They were not going to do that again within just a few years. > so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C). Historically, Android had nowhere near the accessories ecosystem of Apple. I believe that is why Apple is starting the switchover to USB-C, with the new iPad using USB-C: * the dock connector lived for about 10 years, we’re approaching the 10th year of Lightning, that’s a pretty good lifecycle for a connector * the universality of USB-C amongst Android manufacturers means there now is a large ecosystem of accessories and Apple won’t have to rebuild their ecosystem from scratch I wouldn’t be surprised if the ipad was basically a warning shot, and Apple switched the rest of their mobile devices over to USB-C with the 2022 releases.
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
Its not crazy. Its sickening.
Pet_Ant 5y ago
...and ethernet.
SergeAx 5y ago
A laptop is a computer you use on the go. I don't see how this usage pattern includes that much of external hardware to use all those ports. Smartphone, data stick - that's it. There may be a kinda-permanent place, where one using their laptop most of the time. I don't see any problem having a dock station there with all the the ports and a power routed via single USB C or Thunderbolt port. The problem is not the industry. The problem is people using laptops where they should use desktop computers. Which are, coincidentally, are modular and expandable through the roof.
- lyaa 5y ago
  Not everyone is rich enough to also buy a desktop computer or have space for it? Not to mention that the hassle of duplicating software and data files between a laptop and a desktop is too much work for anyone who does not actually like to spend time on tech.
  - SergeAx 5y ago
    If I am on a tight budget, getting a desktop instead of a laptop is a no-brainer. There are very narow field where laptop is a must, and most of this are valid for employed individuals, so the burden of providing the hardware is on employer.
rualca 5y ago
> The crazy thing here is that it’s not so hard to hit the standard set of “pro” ports — Given that the cheapest USB hub allows you to plug in half a dozen USB-A devices and SD cards, and given that frequently they are not used at all by anyone, why would it be preferable to add 3 dedicated ports instead of just using one of the four available USB-C ports? The same goes to the HDMI and phone/mic ports. In fact, nowadays you have monitors that not only support video over USB-C but also serve as USB-A hubs, which means that with a single USB-C connector you can get everything you mentioned in your example.

by biztos 5y ago

wonnage 5y ago

Apple did one good thing, which is make every USB-C port have the same capabilities (charging, thunderbolt). Windows laptops, especially once you get down into the budget section, are absolutely atrocious at this, you have to read little lightning symbols and can only charge from a special port...

chaostheory 5y ago
I thought they didn’t do that? Has this changed for MacBooks recently?
- tristor 5y ago
  It's always been that way on Macbooks. It's also simplified with USB 4, which means the newest Macbooks just support everything under Thunderbolt / USB 4 on every port. Older Macbooks may have had some Display Port shenanigans because of differences between DP 1.2 and DP 1.4 and whether it was over Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1, but all modes were basically supported. Any port on any Macbook with USB-C can be used as the charging port, which is a big deal all on its own compared to most non-Macbook laptops that use USB-C charging.
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    You're right. I guess I was confused by the differences before re-reading it again https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/587669/Are+all+USB+C+ports+equal https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/587669/Are+all+USB+C+por...
  - KptMarchewa 5y ago
    Then it overheats like hell if you connect it from the wrong side.
kllrnohj 5y ago
Which came at the cost of just having fewer ports. 2 USB-C ports is a joke even if they are both thunderbolt 3 capable. One is taken by charging if you don't have a thunderbolt dock with power delivery, leaving you with effectively a single port.

moonchrome 5y ago

No ethernet ? WiFi is nice and all but when I get a docker-compose project that decides to pull down the internet I really love the fact that I'm on a gigabit network.

chrisseaton 5y ago
This is where it goes wrong. Everyone thinks their particular favourite port is a 'pro' essential, and we end up with Homer-cars with a thousand ports. Just use USB-C. Almost everything can go through USB-C.
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  But not everything can go through the USB-C cable you have on hand. That's the annoying bit with USB-C. We may have (almost) standardized on a single plug/socket shape, but we didn't escape the essential complexity - the fact that one type of connection cannot handle all the use cases we'd like it to. We just pushed that complexity into cables. Instead of having to deal with separate data, network and graphics ports, users now have to deal with potentially separate data, network, graphics and charging cables. I'm not convinced this is an improvement, because USB-C cables are a bottom-feeder market that will not hesitate to outright scam the buyer. At this point I'm not sure it's an improvement. I feel like the optimum point would be a small amount of standards targeting mutually incompatible applications. That, or forcing some specification requirements on USB-C, and standardize some capability labels.
  - infogulch 5y ago
    I hope that this is what USB4 will bring, since iiuc, USB4 is basically the IF's name for Thunderbolt-4-capable USB-C. This was enabled by Intel contributing the TB4 spec to the committee, in a shockingly benevolent move that I guess may have been the greatest internal political feat Intel staff pulled off in the last decade. Edit: Oh and presumably the ports on the Framework are USB4, they just can't say that yet because the certification is still in the works.
    - 5y ago

floatingatoll 5y ago

Insulting all Apple users by calling them "industrial sheep" may put you into conflict with having your views given reasonable consideration, not to mention the site guidelines. It's not generally okay here to call people names for disagreeing with your views.

bwship 5y ago
I think he might have been referring to manufactures trying to copy Apple's trendsetting lead, not the users of Apple devices.
Stupulous 5y ago
I'm not positive, but I think they were talking about Apple's competitors rather than their users. Samsung, for example, dropped the aux port for dongles soon after Apple.
floatingatoll 5y ago
I misread, based on replies. Thanks for pointing out another interpretation, all. Apologies.
- necovek 5y ago
  I don't see how your original comment does not apply if it's targetted to a different group. Even if it's companies, they are "companies of people". Seems a bit disingenuous.
  - floatingatoll 5y ago
    I accepted the correction from others here in accordance with a site guideline about this exact scenario: > Please respond to the strongest plausible interpretation of what someone says, not a weaker one that's easier to criticize. Assume good faith. I was unable to come up with a good faith and plausible interpretation; others found one that I'd missed, and thus I retracted my objection. The author apparently later confirmed their interpretation, but that was not factored into my retraction, and is not relevant to the guideline I'm trying to adhere to. To your comment about "disingenuous", I've spent most of my life being misunderstood for making perfectly logical statements that other people decided were some sort of slander instead of trying to understand in good faith given the context that I'm a nerd with social disorders. So I'd prefer to avoid being upset with someone else over a misinterpretation when I wish others would be less upset with me about them.

whatthehex 5y ago

Except charging and video, anyone needing a bag of dongles probably needs to rethink their workflow at this point. It’s electrons flowing throw a medium. 9,000 connectors does not change that. That was all foisted on us by hardware vendors hoping to create the new gold standard.

mrjin 5y ago

USB-C is much more complicated than most of us would anticipate, I would prefer to make it more specific: 2 Thunderbolt and 2 USB 3.2 gen 1. And I don't know when was the last time I used SD, let's save it for something else. And on a computer, I would prefer DP or mini-DB over HDMI.

dreamcompiler 5y ago

And after going "all USB-C, all the time" on their laptops Apple still can't figure out how to put USB-C on a phone. At some point you have to conclude Apple is fucking with us all on purpose, just because they can.

elromulous 5y ago
+1 Also this meme: https://youtu.be/-XSC_UG5_kU https://youtu.be/-XSC_UG5_kU
Hackbraten 5y ago
Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. Of course, Apple could pull it off if they really wanted. They’ve done it it with iPads. But please don’t frame it as customer trolling. We’re better than that here.
- yellowapple 5y ago
  > Changing a connector is not trivial if you have hundreds of millions of customers and a massive ecosystem of third-party vendors, each with their own roadmap. And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning), but so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C).
  - masklinn 5y ago
    > And yet not only has Apple already done exactly that for iPhones (specifically: migrating from the iPod connector to Lightning) That’s the point though is it not? Apple was just out of a connector switch, which required users to throw out all their old accessories and get new ones. They were not going to do that again within just a few years. > so has virtually every Android vendor done exactly that for Android devices (specifically: migrating from USB micro-B to USB C). Historically, Android had nowhere near the accessories ecosystem of Apple. I believe that is why Apple is starting the switchover to USB-C, with the new iPad using USB-C: * the dock connector lived for about 10 years, we’re approaching the 10th year of Lightning, that’s a pretty good lifecycle for a connector * the universality of USB-C amongst Android manufacturers means there now is a large ecosystem of accessories and Apple won’t have to rebuild their ecosystem from scratch I wouldn’t be surprised if the ipad was basically a warning shot, and Apple switched the rest of their mobile devices over to USB-C with the 2022 releases.

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

Its not crazy. Its sickening.

Pet_Ant 5y ago

...and ethernet.

SergeAx 5y ago

A laptop is a computer you use on the go. I don't see how this usage pattern includes that much of external hardware to use all those ports. Smartphone, data stick - that's it. There may be a kinda-permanent place, where one using their laptop most of the time. I don't see any problem having a dock station there with all the the ports and a power routed via single USB C or Thunderbolt port. The problem is not the industry. The problem is people using laptops where they should use desktop computers. Which are, coincidentally, are modular and expandable through the roof.

lyaa 5y ago
Not everyone is rich enough to also buy a desktop computer or have space for it? Not to mention that the hassle of duplicating software and data files between a laptop and a desktop is too much work for anyone who does not actually like to spend time on tech.
- SergeAx 5y ago
  If I am on a tight budget, getting a desktop instead of a laptop is a no-brainer. There are very narow field where laptop is a must, and most of this are valid for employed individuals, so the burden of providing the hardware is on employer.

rualca 5y ago

> The crazy thing here is that it’s not so hard to hit the standard set of “pro” ports — Given that the cheapest USB hub allows you to plug in half a dozen USB-A devices and SD cards, and given that frequently they are not used at all by anyone, why would it be preferable to add 3 dedicated ports instead of just using one of the four available USB-C ports? The same goes to the HDMI and phone/mic ports. In fact, nowadays you have monitors that not only support video over USB-C but also serve as USB-A hubs, which means that with a single USB-C connector you can get everything you mentioned in your example.