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I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardwar
by strix_varius 5y ago
I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardware interfaces.
So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically "recessed dongles").
I couldn't lose them / forget them. They wouldn't take up space in my bag while I'm traveling. I could "set and forget" them to perfectly match whatever desktop / docking setup I'm using. In five years when my wireless VR system uses some as-yet-unknown hardware interface, I can swap a single component out to support it. Seems like brilliant design to me.
- EduardoBautista 5y agoI don't understand how this meme about "dongles" still exists. You know how I avoided using dongles? I just used USB-C cables. And for the very few things that don't have a detachable cable, I use a micro USB-C adapter. It's been several years since the release of the USB-C only MacBook Pros, this shouldn't be an issue if you put in a minimal amount of effort.
- BiteCode_dev 5y agoHN bubble at work, right here. Some of my clients still have projectors with... vga ports. Then you need ethernet and hdmi of course, regularly in the corporate world or at your friends house. So yeah, dongle it is. USB-C dongle for sure, but still dongle.
- EduardoBautista 5y agoThere are cables for USB-C to VGA and HDMI, no dongle required. Ethernet, OK, I will give you that.
- BiteCode_dev 5y agoI don't see how putting a cable in my backpack is going to be better than a dongle, and I'm certainly not going to a client for the first time then complain they don't have the right cable. Not to mention the dongle supports several ports. But you know what is better than either ? The framework laptop solution of letting me configure the port I want before going to my client.
- deserted 5y agoAre you going to ask in advance "what type of plug should my laptop have to connect to your monitor" or bring a pocket full of ports?
- morganvachon 5y agoI would argue that a USB-C to VGA or HDMI cable is just a longer dongle. What if you take your USB-C-only laptop to a remote office to do a presentation, but your six foot USB-C to HDMI cable isn't long enough to reach the port because the projector is mounted in the ceiling and has a standard HDMI cable routed to the lectern? I'd much rather have the Framework with a HDMI port on the device than struggle with a common situation like that.
- jsjohnst 5y ago> What if you take your USB-C-only laptop to a remote office to do a presentation, but your six foot USB-C to HDMI cable isn't long enough to reach the port because the projector is mounted in the ceiling and has a standard HDMI cable routed to the lectern? I personally really like the idea of what Framework is doing and wish more laptops followed suit, but that is a trivially solved problem you identified: https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Connector-Extender-Chromecast-PlayStation/dp/B00A30FELW/ https://www.amazon.com/UGREEN-Connector-Extender-Chromecast-...
- morganvachon 5y agoOf course it's trivially solved...with a dongle for your dongle! Or you could avoid dongle-ception by using a modular laptop like the Framework, or even a standard laptop with an HDMI port; even current-gen models from Dell, Lenovo, and HP still have it as an option especially on business-oriented machines. It all comes down to what your everyday requirements and tolerances allow for. But again, the "dongle" argument is moot and not really a reason to either consider or avoid the Framework, for me at least. It's more about the device being open and repairable, and arguments about dongles are just attempts to justify one's current USB-C only device.
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- jsjohnst 5y ago> It all comes down to what your everyday requirements and tolerances allow for Agree completely. For me, Apple's USB-C only ports isn't an issue as everything I use plugs in via one or two TB3 cables (depending on personal vs work laptop) and daisy chains from the monitor or a TB3 dock so no dongles needed at all, but I still appreciate the design choice Framework made and think it's a good strategy.
- Ekaros 5y agoUSB-C to VGA? How is that not a dongle? Those protocols are in no way compatible...
- z3t4 5y agoTheoretically you could emulate the signal with software/drivers given that USB-C has 24 pins. But there's actually display standards/signals built into USB-C so you "just have to" convert the digital signal to analog for VGA, but then it's no longer a stupid cable and more like a dongle.
- EduardoBautista 5y agohttps://www.amazon.com/Plugable-MacBook-Supports-Resolutions-1920x1080/dp/B072DX5Z5S https://www.amazon.com/Plugable-MacBook-Supports-Resolutions... I don't understand how one USB-C to VGA cable is more inconvenient?
- Zachsa999 5y agoNever have I seen a greater push against good design. The laptop ship with USBc if you didn't pick that up. YOU CAN USE YOUR USBC TO VGA CABLE IF YOU WANT. Or, if you don't want, you can grab A VGA module out of your drawer you store all your retired dongles in, slide it into your laptop, and there you have it.
- EduardoBautista 5y agoThis is not about using a module vs a cable. My comments refer to using a cable instead of a dongle. People make it seem as though using a dongle is the ONLY way to, for example, connect your MacBook Pro to a TV when you could just use a cable for it.
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- White_Wolf 5y agoFor this exact reason I carry a projector(with a mira/chromecast dongle in my car whenever I have to train engineers at our partners offices).
- TheOtherHobbes 5y agoAnd if you're speaking at a conference and have to use whatever is available?
- lrae 5y agoThen you'll take a dongle with you to that conference? Are you telling me you would always waste one of the 4? framework ports for Display Ouput X that you only use once a year?
- spockz 5y agoAll the conferences I’ve been to had dongles readily available. Most used hdmi. Once I had hastily arranged breakout room that had VGA for the Beamer. I think this is a non-issue?
- White_Wolf 5y agoI always carry it with me but usually they have some sort of screen casting tech around already. I do make it clear from the planning stages that they need to provide either one of 3 video inputs to their selected system (HDMI/DP/Screen casting) or they need to provide the computer that I can use to remote into my 13"(this is what they usually choose if they have older screens or projectors).
- bumbada 5y agoI carry a battery powered projector for this reason for talking with customers, providers or partners. I use standard airport suitcases for that. It just makes no sense spending lots of time trying to adapt to obsolete infrastructure for every person you visit. If necessary I even have a blackboard and color chalks in my car and get away with them. When I go to the meeting room, if I don't need to use my projector, great, but I will never use VGA, too much hassle.
- BiteCode_dev 5y agoExcept: - some conf room don't have a projector, but flat screens, a smart white boards or some remote conf setup that needs you to plug in, and/or no walls that fits the bill for projection - some conf rooms don't have a place to put for your projector and get a good picture. Their is own the ceiling. - unless you buy a very good one, some conf rooms won't have the light for your projector to be readable - it addresses only the projector problem, not ethernet, sd card, usb A, etc - a good projector is way more expensive that a few dongles, are easier to break, harder to replace if lost/broken or if you forget it at home Not to say it's a bad idea to _also_ have a projector.
- aksss 5y agoWhat projector do u use?
- lrae 5y agoHN bubble at work, right here. Framework does not even offer a VGA module, do they?
- buildbot 5y agoBut it would be easy to make one yourself! Though fitting the port itself may be a challenge...
- BiteCode_dev 5y agoYet. They are just getting started. Plus their modules have an open design.
- pavon 5y agoI'm curious as to how those work out. The modules are too short to fit a VGA, serial, or ethernet port and be flush with the laptop, but I think you could make one that extends further out and above, and would still have some benefits over a dongle.
- yourapostasy 5y ago> The modules are too short to fit a VGA, serial, or ethernet port and be flush with the laptop... I'd be fine with a pop out style port for those ports. Won't be flush while in use, but I'd happily accept that to trade off having to carry around dongles. I'd rather pack and carry a small "stick" of these modules stacked together than a bundle of dongles. I give it three months tops before someone starts selling a Pez-like "dispenser" that stores these modules. If the module bodies were designed to stick together though, that would spark joy in my inner Marie Kondo.
- realityking 5y agoWhy carry a stick of modules instead of a single dongle[1] that has every port you'd need? 1: https://www.kensington.com/p/products/device-docking-connectivity-products/laptop-docks-usb-accessories/sd1650p-usb-c-single-4k-portable-docking-station-with-100w-power-pass-through2-1/ https://www.kensington.com/p/products/device-docking-connect...
- deeblering4 5y agoHN bubble at work, right here. Some of my clients still have vt220 terminals with... serial ports. Then you need a 9600 baud modem and rj11 wire of course, regularly in the corporate world or at your friends house. So yeah, dongle it is. USB 1.1 dongle for sure, but still dongle.
- genewitch 5y agoI too also throw away perfectly good gear because of a decision apple made!
- fomine3 5y agoNot fair. Very few laptops have serial port (I came up with GPD Micro PC) and maybe zero have modem, but some laptops have VGA port. Manufacturers know that VGA is still used but serial/modem aren't.
- nl 5y ago> but some laptops have VGA port Do any (non-specialist) laptops still have VGA ports? I had a quick look on the Dell site and couldn't find any.
- fomine3 5y agoIn Japanese market, some latest models support VGA but mostly by domestic brand. Some models are made by Clevo or whatever, so possibly also available on other markets. Here's a list: https://kakaku.com/pc/note-pc/itemlist.aspx?pdf_Spec047=1 https://kakaku.com/pc/note-pc/itemlist.aspx?pdf_Spec047=1 Those are seems to available on other markets. https://www.asus.com/Laptops/For-Work/ExpertBook/ExpertBook-B1-B1500/techspec/ https://www.asus.com/Laptops/For-Work/ExpertBook/ExpertBook-... https://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/notebooks/lifebook-u7411/index.html https://www.fujitsu.com/global/products/computing/pc/noteboo...
- gertrunde 5y agoThese days I suspect that something like a toughbook might be the only option for those sort of ports - although that GPD Micro PC does look quite fun. Even 10-15 years ago, proper serial ports were becoming extremely rare, but there are times when you need a proper one. Around that time we resorted to pc card/express card serial ports for occasions when USB to serial isn't good enough, although they were relatively expensive (3-4 times more than a USB serial dongle). (The use case in that scenario was field engineers connecting to a very wide variety of odd equipment, like fire alarm panels and door entry systems, that sort of thing - USB dongles were massively inconsistent and unreliable - different dongles would be compatible/incompatible with different kit, was a right mess). Obviously, these days, express card slots are also quite rare. (The alternative is hauling out my old IBM T22, which I think maybe came with Win98... mostly still works apart from the battery).
- dnautics 5y agoethernet and serial dongles are a requirement for emergency maintenance inside of datacenters. But of course not many people on hn spend time in datacenters anymare...
- kllrnohj 5y agoIt's also needed for just making sure your internet is setup properly at home. Nobody cares about your speed test over wifi, but ISP's sometimes care if you can't get anywhere close to the rated speeds over Ethernet. And of course that setup still requires Ethernet. Can't setup a wifi ap over wifi.
- ryan_lane 5y agoThese should be part of the crash cart...
- gertrunde 5y agoWow. You must be going places with some seriously luxury crash carts ;) I'm normally happy if the power cable for the screen is still there...
- dionian 5y agoIf they continued to support USB-A natively then the industry would be even slower to pick up USB-C
- jazzyjackson 5y agoI have yet to see a USB-C thumb drive in the wild.
- somehnguy 5y agoI have one, it’s USBC on one end & regular USB on the other, just flips around in the protective sheath to whatever one you need. It’s also super fast, though I’ve never spent much for high end thumb drives to compare to. I got it at Target. Love how easy it makes going between my USBC only MBP and other random computers.
- nottorp 5y agoI got a Kingston MicroDuo. Both USB-C and USB-A and it's small enough that i keep it in my wallet with the coins.
- cylinder714 5y agoBest Buy has Sandisk units.
- aksss 5y agoSanDisk dual drive is fantastic. Gets a bit hot, but it’s awesomely useful to have both plugs on the same drive.
- sequoia 5y agoIn 2019 my new employer sent me a new MacBook pro. I couldn’t connect it to my home office monitors which had vga and dvi ports, so I asked for dongles. Rather than try to sort out the cable confusion, they simply shipped me brand new monitors (which I wasn’t asking for). I also needed dongles to attach my keyboard and mouse, dongles for same were provided by IT. My point: Dongles are still an issue, not everyone throws out their displays/keyboard/mouse every time apple comes out with some new version. My 2010 dell displays still work just fine, and it would be great if I could plug them straight into my laptop.
- turtlebits 5y agoWhile I'm not a big fan of dongles, they make them slim enough to just leave them attached to the device. I've had one attached to my mouse for 2 years now and it doesn't add much bulk. My Samsung phone came with one so small that you can't even tell is there (other than the extra width for the USB-A part).
- andrepd 5y agoWhy on earth would you remove ports for "thinness" just to have a cable flopping around?
- richardfey 5y agoBecause the designers are not forced to use their prototype for 500 hours before signing it off, that's why!
- Grustaf 5y agoBecause 100% of people can enjoy the thinness 100% of the time, and only 5% of people need VGA for about 20% of their time.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- girvo 5y agoYou're being downvoted which seems a bit weird, but I agree at least for myself. I went USB-C only in my house, and it's been pretty excellent, up until my new job gave me a Windows laptop that has exactly one USB-C port and requires Mini-DisplayPort 1.4 for its display output.
- arecurrence 5y agoI don't understand the logic. When the original usb-c MBP came out I spent $30 on Monoprice for usb-c to whatever cables and never looked back. I even still have many of those cables 3 laptops later. People would actually comment about dongle gate in Meetups and I'd show them my usb-c to micro-usb cable... ...oh the look of shock in their eyes... "You mean... you never bought a dongle?". The concept of a cable with usb-c at one end and anything else at the other was completely foreign.
- obedm 5y agoWell... This is an idea I never had lol.
- thereddaikon 5y agowhat if I......want more than one usb port?
- lotsofpulp 5y agoI have never used these, but these came up in my searches: https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderbolt-hub https://eshop.macsales.com/shop/owc-thunderbolt-hub https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-4-element-hub/ https://www.caldigit.com/thunderbolt-4-element-hub/
- secabeen 5y agoI have this one, it's inexpensive, and works well: https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Upgraded-Delivery-Pixelbook-A83460A2/dp/B07ZVKTP53/ https://www.amazon.com/Anker-Upgraded-Delivery-Pixelbook-A83...
- teawrecks 5y agoBut toting around a dongle is exactly the problem we're trying to solve.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
- biztos 5y agoThe crazy thing here is that it’s not so hard to hit the standard set of “pro” ports — USB-C x 4 (new standard blabla) USB-A x 2 SD x 1 HDMI x 1 Phone/Mic I applaud the modular approach but Apple’s donglevision was the pure distillation of user-hostility between the Bean-Counter in Chief and the SVP, Thin Stuff. And all the industrial sheep who followed them. May we all recover…
- wonnage 5y agoApple did one good thing, which is make every USB-C port have the same capabilities (charging, thunderbolt). Windows laptops, especially once you get down into the budget section, are absolutely atrocious at this, you have to read little lightning symbols and can only charge from a special port...
- chaostheory 5y agoI thought they didn’t do that? Has this changed for MacBooks recently?
- tristor 5y agoIt's always been that way on Macbooks. It's also simplified with USB 4, which means the newest Macbooks just support everything under Thunderbolt / USB 4 on every port. Older Macbooks may have had some Display Port shenanigans because of differences between DP 1.2 and DP 1.4 and whether it was over Thunderbolt 3 or USB 3.1, but all modes were basically supported. Any port on any Macbook with USB-C can be used as the charging port, which is a big deal all on its own compared to most non-Macbook laptops that use USB-C charging.
- chaostheory 5y agoYou're right. I guess I was confused by the differences before re-reading it again https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/587669/Are+all+USB+C+ports+equal https://www.ifixit.com/Answers/View/587669/Are+all+USB+C+por...
- 5y ago
- foxpurple 5y agoI don’t see a problem with them. The majority of users never need one and even when I use them I usually use them infrequently. I often leave them on the ends of cables. My display port cable has a usb c dongle left on it so it’s like it’s natively usb C anyway. Sure, if you do some weird stuff or have an extreme use case, I can see why you would want more built in ports, but for the majority of users, they only plug in the charging cable and maybe video out.
- Grustaf 5y ago1. Most people don't need to use any dongles at all 2. Most people that do need them, only need them for connecting to their own stuff, so they can just keep the dongle attached to the peripheral And also, if you want to be able to switch out your recessed dongles, you will need to keep track of them in your bag.
- skocznymroczny 5y agoWell, not everyone wants to carry a brick. Sure, Thinkpads are great because they have each port ever invented, but I still prefer a thin laptop (if you have USB-A or Ethernet ports you can't have a thin laptop) with the option of using a dongle once a month if I need it.
- ants_a 5y agoThere are plenty of thin laptops with USB-A ports. Thinkpad X1 is both thinner than a macbook and has two USB-A ports. And there are laptops just 2mm thicker than a Macbook Air that have ethernet via some clever mechanical engineering.
- rualca 5y ago> I find it hilarious that we spend multiple thousands of dollars on sleek, elegant hardware and then hook up chunky plastic dongles to overcome their bad hardware interfaces. I don't understand how anyone can come up with that conclusion. I mean, your "cheap plastic dongles" jab is actually a testament to the extent of how superb it's interoperability is. I mean, you're for some reason complaining that we are free to even plug in "cheap plastic dongles" to a high-end device when in reality this means that we can even plug in the cheapest "plastic dongles" and expect it to work. How is this a bad thing? Back to the "cheap plastic dongles" complain, I do use one from time to time, and the reason is quite simple: I had USB-A devices which I use for years but I also have a couple of laptops which only pack USB-C ports. Should I throw away perfectly good hardware just because a random guy on the internet dislikes cheap plastic dongles? Should I base my purchasing decisions on whether a laptop supports legacy ports? Or should I just spend $10 on a dongle intended to be used occasionally and stop worrying about inane details? Those who prefer spending their time on relevant things don't even realize that complaining about the proper etiquete of pairing peripherals with computers is a reason for anyone to waste their time. Why do you?
- strix_varius 5y agoThe point of the original comment seems to have gone right over your head. > So I love the idea of these ports (agreed, they're basically "recessed dongles"). It's juxtaposing two types of dongles: the common, cheap, plastic ones, and the sleek, integrated ones from Framework's laptop, in order to show that Framework's aligns better with the design ethos of the device itself. > Should I throw away perfectly good hardware just because a random guy on the internet dislikes cheap plastic dongles? Should I base my purchasing decisions on whether a laptop supports legacy ports? Again, you're missing the point. Both of these types of dongles will support your USB-A devices without you throwing anything away in your pique. One will just look good, feel good, and integrate with the machine you're using, while the other won't.
- dionian 5y agoI am glad Apple is pushing for USB-C, otherwise we'd still have so many devices coming out with USB-A