7 ms·

I'm not an anti-vaxxer but vaccine passports treat me like I am (anaphylactic)

32 points by gentleman11 5y ago

azinman2 5y ago
Being allergic doesn’t negate the lack of the second shot and what it means for viral spread and risk to others. These things aren’t being done for individuals as much as the collective. In such a group, a tiny percentage of people will lose out who want the vaccine but are unable to get it. Her inability to see the larger picture doesn’t make this “unfair” as she suggests, but rather, unlucky.
- dfee 5y ago
  At least we can call it what it is: utilitarianism. Now we don’t need to rehash every debate on the subject, but instead recognize the arguments for and against it.
- alexmcc81 5y ago
  I think you're the one missing the larger picture. One of the main selling points of mass vaccination is herd immunity to protect those that are unvaccinated - including babies and cancer patients.
  - sjburt 5y ago
    When (or if) herd immunity is reached (measured by rate of community spread), they can drop the need for vaccine passports. The passports are just there in the meantime while infection rates are high.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    When a third of the population is refusing to get the vaccine because they "self-educated" on Youtube and there's no mandate at all for kids to get it, then you can't ever have herd immunity.
    - mikem170 5y ago
      Yes you can. Most of those refusing the vaccine will eventually catch this and have natural immunity.
      - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
        No you can't. Not without vaccinating kids.
        s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Kids can't acquire natural immunity? I haven't read that
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - azinman2 5y ago
        We’re seeing that people can get reinfected, so it’s unlikely natural immunity will protect you from Covid any more than the flu or a cold. I personally know of someone who got it last year, then got vaccinated, and then got it again and almost was hospitalized. This is a tricky one.
        tzs 5y ago
        > We’re seeing that people can get reinfected, so it’s unlikely natural immunity will protect you from Covid any more than the flu or a cold. If COVID immunity ends up working like cold immunity that would be fine. About 20% of colds are caused by coronaviruses that caused deadly pandemics when they first appeared in humans. As with COVID these tended to cause much more serious illness in non-immune adults than in non-immune children. Now we all get them as non-immune children, and although that does not confer upon us immunity from reinfection it does confer protection against serious illness.
        MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  - sapientiae3 5y ago
    It was a good selling point, only now it seems that vaccinations don’t prevent the spread as much as previously thought, especially the variants such as Delta variant. So it seem there won’t be any herd immunity anytime soon. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/picture-shifting-vaccines-transmission-re-shaping-learn-live/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-diseas...
  - nradov 5y ago
    Unfortunately the Delta variant is sufficiently contagious that there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect the unvaccinated. I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but vaccinated people can still spread the virus. Eventually almost everyone will be exposed. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
- TechBro8615 5y ago
  This argument would make a lot more sense if the vaccinated weren’t spreading the virus.
  - azinman2 5y ago
    But if you’re spreading it only to other vaccinated people, then they’re less likely to get it in the first place. So it still does slow the spread.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  I am fully vaccinated and will not use any pass and forego business that demands it. I think the request for such a pass is unscientific and political hogwash to stay polite.
giuliomagnifico 5y ago
Wait. Here in Italy, if a guy can’t have the vaccine due to his health status, he/she can just go to his personal doctor and ask for an exemption. Then he will have a paper that is the same as the EU green pass but without have done the vaccine. What’s wrong with Canada? Why they don’t make something similar?
- OJFord 5y ago
  I assume Canada has the same, but she's (it is she, the article makes that clear as well as answering your question) eligible for the second dose just as she was for the first, so she wouldn't get the exemption. Just has a reasonable reason not to want it, and not to be treated poorly for making that decision.
  - coryrc 5y ago
    It's not a reasonable reason.
- sjburt 5y ago
  They have something similar, but in her province the list of allowed exemptions is much stricter[1]. If you have an allergic reaction to one vaccine, they require a second dose using a difference vaccine. The author is unwilling to attempt that. The problem the government is trying to avoid is doctors who will give out exemptions too broadly. There is a balance to be struck and BC took a harder line. 1. https://twitter.com/DrBirinderSingh/status/1438319165174018048 https://twitter.com/DrBirinderSingh/status/14383191651740180...
  - Wowfunhappy 5y ago
    > If you have an allergic reaction to one vaccine, they require a second dose using a difference vaccine. Can the second dose be one of the non-mRNA vaccines? If so, and she’s never had an allergic reaction to any other vaccination, that doesn’t strike me as entirely unreasonable. Especially if the alternative is just that she can’t go to a restaurant or the gym (e.g., she won’t loose her job).
  - 5y ago
OJFord 5y ago
Simple fix would be to only require a single dose for a passport? I can't think of an 'illegitimate' reason that somebody would be willing to take one dose but refuse another; so we could just charitably assume anyone with at one dose either had another too or a good reason not to?
- mikem170 5y ago
  Some of the vaccines, like the Johnson & Johnson, are single dose. It's possible that the mRNA vaccines at a single dose are better.
  - OJFord 5y ago
    Sure. Isn't that just even more reason to give passports (if you must at all) for ≥1 dose (that don't detail how many)? Just keep it simple, they don't need to care which vaccine, the guidelines on it (at the time it was given / now!) etc.
Teslazar 5y ago
Perhaps the title of this article should be "I had an allergic reaction to my 1st shot and am unwilling to have a 2nd shot of any COVID-19 vaccine". In BC, you don't need to use the same vaccine for each shot to be considered fully vaccinated. This person is expected to switch to a different COVID-19 vaccine for her second shot. In the article if you look at the Twitter post shown, it shows a "Valid contraindications and deferrals to COVID-19 vaccination" which states the following: "The following are NOT contraindications to COVID-19 vaccination: History of an anaphylactic reaction to a previous dose of mRNA or adenovirus vector vaccine. Such individuals may receive their 2nd dose using vaccine of the different type. History of an anaphylactic reaction to any component of one type of vaccine. Such individuals may receive vaccine of the different type."
- calyth2018 5y ago
  AFAIK the availability of AZ has been winding down in BC. There's another solution. Given the anaphylaxis, she could just be medically exempt. It's the same thing as why the nurse asks if one's allergic to eggs for the flu shot. Those who can take the shot, should, not only for themselves, but for those who might not be able to (e.g. allergic reaction), or those whose body did not take full effect from the shot.
gentleman11 5y ago
Yeah, this definitely deserved to be flagged. All those people who are basically on house arrest because of sloppy rules aren’t worth talking about /s

32 points by gentleman11 5y ago

Being allergic doesn’t negate the lack of the second shot and what it means for viral spread and risk to others. These things aren’t being done for individuals as much as the collective. In such a group, a tiny percentage of people will lose out who want the vaccine but are unable to get it. Her inability to see the larger picture doesn’t make this “unfair” as she suggests, but rather, unlucky.

dfee 5y ago
At least we can call it what it is: utilitarianism. Now we don’t need to rehash every debate on the subject, but instead recognize the arguments for and against it.
alexmcc81 5y ago
I think you're the one missing the larger picture. One of the main selling points of mass vaccination is herd immunity to protect those that are unvaccinated - including babies and cancer patients.
- sjburt 5y ago
  When (or if) herd immunity is reached (measured by rate of community spread), they can drop the need for vaccine passports. The passports are just there in the meantime while infection rates are high.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  When a third of the population is refusing to get the vaccine because they "self-educated" on Youtube and there's no mandate at all for kids to get it, then you can't ever have herd immunity.
  - mikem170 5y ago
    Yes you can. Most of those refusing the vaccine will eventually catch this and have natural immunity.
    - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
      No you can't. Not without vaccinating kids.
      - s1artibartfast 5y ago
        Kids can't acquire natural immunity? I haven't read that
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
    - azinman2 5y ago
      We’re seeing that people can get reinfected, so it’s unlikely natural immunity will protect you from Covid any more than the flu or a cold. I personally know of someone who got it last year, then got vaccinated, and then got it again and almost was hospitalized. This is a tricky one.
      - tzs 5y ago
        > We’re seeing that people can get reinfected, so it’s unlikely natural immunity will protect you from Covid any more than the flu or a cold. If COVID immunity ends up working like cold immunity that would be fine. About 20% of colds are caused by coronaviruses that caused deadly pandemics when they first appeared in humans. As with COVID these tended to cause much more serious illness in non-immune adults than in non-immune children. Now we all get them as non-immune children, and although that does not confer upon us immunity from reinfection it does confer protection against serious illness.
      - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
- sapientiae3 5y ago
  It was a good selling point, only now it seems that vaccinations don’t prevent the spread as much as previously thought, especially the variants such as Delta variant. So it seem there won’t be any herd immunity anytime soon. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-disease/picture-shifting-vaccines-transmission-re-shaping-learn-live/ https://www.telegraph.co.uk/global-health/science-and-diseas...
- nradov 5y ago
  Unfortunately the Delta variant is sufficiently contagious that there will be no significant herd immunity effect to protect the unvaccinated. I encourage everyone to get vaccinated if they can, but vaccinated people can still spread the virus. Eventually almost everyone will be exposed. https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immunity-not-possible-astrazeneca-developer-2021-8?r=US&IR=T https://www.businessinsider.com/delta-variant-made-herd-immu...
TechBro8615 5y ago
This argument would make a lot more sense if the vaccinated weren’t spreading the virus.
- azinman2 5y ago
  But if you’re spreading it only to other vaccinated people, then they’re less likely to get it in the first place. So it still does slow the spread.
raxxorrax 5y ago
I am fully vaccinated and will not use any pass and forego business that demands it. I think the request for such a pass is unscientific and political hogwash to stay polite.

giuliomagnifico 5y ago

Wait. Here in Italy, if a guy can’t have the vaccine due to his health status, he/she can just go to his personal doctor and ask for an exemption. Then he will have a paper that is the same as the EU green pass but without have done the vaccine. What’s wrong with Canada? Why they don’t make something similar?

OJFord 5y ago
I assume Canada has the same, but she's (it is she, the article makes that clear as well as answering your question) eligible for the second dose just as she was for the first, so she wouldn't get the exemption. Just has a reasonable reason not to want it, and not to be treated poorly for making that decision.
- coryrc 5y ago
  It's not a reasonable reason.
sjburt 5y ago
They have something similar, but in her province the list of allowed exemptions is much stricter[1]. If you have an allergic reaction to one vaccine, they require a second dose using a difference vaccine. The author is unwilling to attempt that. The problem the government is trying to avoid is doctors who will give out exemptions too broadly. There is a balance to be struck and BC took a harder line. 1. https://twitter.com/DrBirinderSingh/status/1438319165174018048 https://twitter.com/DrBirinderSingh/status/14383191651740180...
- Wowfunhappy 5y ago
  > If you have an allergic reaction to one vaccine, they require a second dose using a difference vaccine. Can the second dose be one of the non-mRNA vaccines? If so, and she’s never had an allergic reaction to any other vaccination, that doesn’t strike me as entirely unreasonable. Especially if the alternative is just that she can’t go to a restaurant or the gym (e.g., she won’t loose her job).
- 5y ago

OJFord 5y ago

Simple fix would be to only require a single dose for a passport? I can't think of an 'illegitimate' reason that somebody would be willing to take one dose but refuse another; so we could just charitably assume anyone with at one dose either had another too or a good reason not to?

mikem170 5y ago
Some of the vaccines, like the Johnson & Johnson, are single dose. It's possible that the mRNA vaccines at a single dose are better.
- OJFord 5y ago
  Sure. Isn't that just even more reason to give passports (if you must at all) for ≥1 dose (that don't detail how many)? Just keep it simple, they don't need to care which vaccine, the guidelines on it (at the time it was given / now!) etc.

Teslazar 5y ago

Perhaps the title of this article should be "I had an allergic reaction to my 1st shot and am unwilling to have a 2nd shot of any COVID-19 vaccine". In BC, you don't need to use the same vaccine for each shot to be considered fully vaccinated. This person is expected to switch to a different COVID-19 vaccine for her second shot. In the article if you look at the Twitter post shown, it shows a "Valid contraindications and deferrals to COVID-19 vaccination" which states the following: "The following are NOT contraindications to COVID-19 vaccination: History of an anaphylactic reaction to a previous dose of mRNA or adenovirus vector vaccine. Such individuals may receive their 2nd dose using vaccine of the different type. History of an anaphylactic reaction to any component of one type of vaccine. Such individuals may receive vaccine of the different type."

calyth2018 5y ago
AFAIK the availability of AZ has been winding down in BC. There's another solution. Given the anaphylaxis, she could just be medically exempt. It's the same thing as why the nurse asks if one's allergic to eggs for the flu shot. Those who can take the shot, should, not only for themselves, but for those who might not be able to (e.g. allergic reaction), or those whose body did not take full effect from the shot.

gentleman11 5y ago

Yeah, this definitely deserved to be flagged. All those people who are basically on house arrest because of sloppy rules aren’t worth talking about /s