16 ms·

The ownership and future of Mullvad VPN

536 points by JoachimS 5y ago

legrande 5y ago
> Mullvad VPN is here to stay, and we are not interested in ever selling it Yeah we don't want another Kape Technologies acquisition[0]. Kape already own Cyberghost, PrivateInternetAccess and Zenmate. If they bought Mullvad, I would immediately stop using Mullvad since Kape is Israeli and could possibly be tapped by Mossad (I keep an open mind about that however). [0] https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/kape-technologies-buys-expressvpn-as-part-of-a-936-million-deal/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/kape-technol...
- pgrote 5y ago
  Kape also just bought Expressvpn. https://www.expressvpn.com/blog/expressvpn-joining-kape/ https://www.expressvpn.com/blog/expressvpn-joining-kape/ It was a bummer to see the news.
  - MentatOnMelange 5y ago
    Wow, I had no idea. I was a longtime PIA user, guess its time to switch again. My only issue with Mullvad is netflix blocks them (potential irony there).
    - RealStickman_ 5y ago
      Some servers used to work for me last time I tried. (It has been a while though)
    - yonig 5y ago
      HBO as well
  - aorth 5y ago
    Ah wow, and ExpressVPN was also recently in the news because their CIO was one of three former U.S. intelligence operatives who "illegally helped the United Arab Emirates hack people". https://twitter.com/josephmenn/status/1437885720169836544 https://twitter.com/josephmenn/status/1437885720169836544
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > don't want another Kape Technologies acquisition Purely for schadenfreude, do we have any evidence the volume of leavers was meaningful?
  - crowbahr 5y ago
    They definitely don't post about it. I closed my account with PIA right after the sellout was announced. I received several emails with form letters about Kape actually being really dedicated to privacy and you can totally trust them buying PIA. Made me think that they took a noticeable hit.
  - MentatOnMelange 5y ago
    They began offering much more generous deals on PIA after the aquisition, so I'm guessing enough people left for it to affect their bottom line.
- deadalus 5y ago
  Mullvad is located in Sweden(14 eyes, xkeyscore).
  - samsari 5y ago
    SÄPO is not the Mossad
    - sodality2 5y ago
      SÄPO would comply with fourteen eyes directives, no? Is that not what 14 eyes membership implies?
      - mike_d 5y ago
        No, that isn't what membership implies. It is a cooperation and data sharing agreement, it doesn't unify countries intelligence agencies across borders. For example GE makes engines for Boeing airplanes. They may have a cooperative agreement and mutual non-disclosure agreements that allow engineers and designers to share engine attachment and airframe details freely, but that doesn't mean GE employees have access to information on the radio headsets.
    - jeltz 5y ago
      I do not think it is SÄPO you need to worry about, it is FRA who does most spying.
- Kiro 5y ago
  I believe the whole reason for this post is because Kape just bought ExpressVPN.
- sneak 5y ago
  You should assume your VPN provider is tapped regardless of who owns it or what jurisdiction it is in. The fiber runs right out of the building. You use a VPN to obscure your client IP from websites and app backends, not government mass surveillance.
- xvector 5y ago
  I don't know why you'd give an Israeli tech firm the benefit of the doubt. The country's tech industry is literally surveillance. Kape is not just "possibly" a surveillance operation, it 100% definitely is.
rgrmrts 5y ago
I’ve been a Mullvad user for a while now and it’s a really great service. Good speeds, good apps for mobile and desktop, and the flexibility to use wireguard yourself if needed. I stopped using privateinternetaccess when their ownership stuff became really sketchy. I’d highly recommend Mullvad to anyone else looking for a good VPN provider. Side note, Mozilla VPN uses Mullvad’s network under the hood.
- shapefrog 5y ago
  I googled to see if they are one of the vpn's that avertise agressively, apparently if I am not using <insert vpn> I am going to have cybercriminals litterally reach from under my desk and inappropriately touch me. They seem to be one that doesnt have an affiliate programme, so they go to the top of my trust ranking.
  - hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
    They're also NYT Wirecutter's top pick, in large part because of their strong stance on privacy, publicly-available 3rd-party security audit and ability to pay anonymously. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-vpn-service/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-vpn-service/
    - basch 5y ago
      and privacyguides.org (formerly privacytools.io) https://www.privacyguides.org/providers/vpn/ https://www.privacyguides.org/providers/vpn/
  - y4mi 5y ago
    You can even pay for their service by mailing physical cash to their office! I've been on a subscription for ages now. Haven't really cared about that amount of anonymity so I'm just using a Paypal for payment though
    - rchaud 5y ago
      Protonmail/ProtonVPN allows cash payments by snail mail as well.
jpetrucc 5y ago
I love Mullvad, I've been a happy user of theirs for many years!
mbesto 5y ago
"we are not interested in ever selling it." I know very little about Mullvad specifically, but my general presumption when an organization says this, it means the opposite. Everyone has a price.
- daniel-cussen 5y ago
  In economic theory, yes, everyone has a price.
  - vibrio 5y ago
    That price isn’t always denominated in money. There are people that value altruism or other motivations.
  - JoachimS 5y ago
    That is why it isn't a scientific theory. It is an assumption.
- chmod775 5y ago
  > Everyone has a price. No. You really can't buy some people. Either because they already have more money than they know how to use, or because they have, you know, principles.
  - shawnz 5y ago
    Money can be used to better realize your principles. It's sort of like the trolley problem. What if you were being offered so much money that you felt you could achieve a greater net good with it than without?
    - chmod775 5y ago
      > What if you were being offered so much money that you felt you could achieve a greater net good with it than without? "The ends don't justify the means" is also a principle. And it's a good one. 'Many a great evil has been done in the name of good' etc. If someone won't kill their grandma for one billion dollars, they probably won't do it for 10 billion either.
hikerclimber1 5y ago
Everything is subjective. Especially laws. That’s why people should revolt against their government.
Scarbutt 5y ago
We keep no activity logs. Your IP address is replaced by one of ours, ensuring that your device's activity and location are not linked to you. Where have we seen this before... ;) Surely if requested by their government they will keep logs for any specific customer, just like it happen with protonmail.
- Nextgrid 5y ago
  I don't get the business model of a VPN. You're willingly becoming a magnet for scum, crime, piracy and malware, with maybe 1% of legitimate users. Surely the support costs of dealing with all the constant abuse reports would outweigh the fee they are charging, not to mention the costs of running the infrastructure (if they're used for piracy they'd need quite a bit of bandwidth)? Even if you are legally in the clear, it doesn't strike me as a business someone wants to get involved in unless there are alternative objectives they don't disclose.
  - ziddoap 5y ago
    >with maybe 1% of legitimate users I'm interested to know where you sourced that number? There are plenty of legitimate use cases for a VPN. While I agree there is definitely users with subpar intentions, I highly doubt 99% of people subscribing to a VPN are doing it because they are 'scum'.
    - danachow 5y ago
      I mean his comment is the illustrative argument for why VPNs exist. Basically in a world where a Westerner (a historically relatively more liberal bunch) categorizes 99% of everything they don’t agree with as scum, copyright infringement, or worse - that’s all the motivation you need for safe, reliable communication infrastructure.
  - oefrha 5y ago
    > Surely the support costs of dealing with all the constant abuse reports would outweigh the fee they are charging Employing /dev/null to handle abuse reports is usually pretty cheap.
_joel 5y ago
I've been using Mullvad with Wireguard for some time now, it's been pretty rock solid apart from occasions where one host will get saturated but a quick switch to another in the region and it's never been a big issue (you get that will all providers I suppose).
ziddoap 5y ago
I've been a long-time user of Mullvad, and can only say good things. No usernames, cash payments, published audits by reputable companies, handy FAQ/guide section, sleek application, split-tunelling, etc. In the mess that is VPN products, it's refreshing to see Mullvad stick to its original goals.
OJFord 5y ago
Oof, that's a scary way to title such a harmless/reassuring article!
- dylan604 5y ago
  Clickbait works both ways.
- kzrdude 5y ago
  What's scary about it? It's quite mundane/matter of fact
  - OJFord 5y ago
    That's objectively true, but it's the sort of style we so often see for 'we have sold the company to blah' or 'we are ceasing operations' etc. posts; so it's, to me anyway, 'scary' by association.
  - xvector 5y ago
    Usually such titles are used when the company has been sold
  - tomxor 5y ago
    When you are an appreciative customer, this title just feels ominous.
aborsy 5y ago
The problem is, there is no way to verify such statements.
- JoachimS 5y ago
  All of the statements or specific ones? That the owners are the one stated can be verified. The business register (a Swedish agency) is here: https://bolagsverket.se/ https://bolagsverket.se/ The registration, books etc for limited companies (aktiebolag AB) are public information. As someone else pointed out, there are also third party information sources like allabolag: https://www.allabolag.se/5592384001/mullvad-vpn-ab https://www.allabolag.se/5592384001/mullvad-vpn-ab
Arubis 5y ago
Mullvad has been at the top of my mentally-disorganized pile of VPN trust for years. However, being the best and growing in popularity will eventually be a liability, if it isn't already: the more mindshare, popularity, and traffic, the more appealing they become as a target.
IceWreck 5y ago
Hey, I know this is the original title but please rename it to be more descriptive. I saw the title , assumed the worst and then was reassured on reading the article.
- JoachimS 5y ago
  what would be a better title?
  - xvector 5y ago
    "Mullvad VPN isn't going anywhere" "We will not sell MullvadVPN"
    - potamic 5y ago
      Sounds quite clickbaity. I actually like titles the describe the subject rather than the conclusion.
      - culopatin 5y ago
        How would giving the punchline cause more bite than an undefined outcome? If that was the case you wouldn’t see titles like “you won’t believe what happens when you X” and instead you would see “nothing out of the ordinary happened when we X, save yourself 10 min”. This title is clickbait in the sense that you see it and you have to wonder “oh crap are they selling out? Let’s click and find out”. If they said “Mullvad is not selling and we tell you why” there is no bait.
        potamic 5y ago
        Because the conclusion is usually more nuanced and putting it in the title makes you start to form an opinion before reading the article.
risho 5y ago
mullvad has a long history of proving itself as being a good faith actor in the space. it's also first to step into new technology and infrastructure because they are truly interested and ideologically invested in what they are doing. they don't use accounts or collect email addresses. they accept cash in the mail no matter what you think about crypto they were probably one of if not the first companies in the world to start accepting bitcoin in 2010 and have always self hosted their infrastructure, not offloading it to bitpay or whatever other company that just funnels right into chain analysis companies. back then bitcoin was on the super fringe and the only people interested and involved in it where people that were ideologically aligned with it's vision. They started funding wireguard before it was cool and before anyone else gave a shit about wireguard. They are the backbone for mozilla's vpn. You can never REALLY be sure, but from what I can tell mullvad is the most honest and sincere vpn company in the space and I wouldn't even consider going anywhere else.
- EthOptimist 5y ago
  So the main thing risk would be if they are consistently logging things such as client IP, user agent etc.
- slg 5y ago
  >no matter what you think about crypto they were probably one of if not the first companies in the world to start accepting bitcoin in 2010 I remember spending north of 25 bitcoins on a month of Mullvad back in those days. I don't remember the exact price, but I do remember mining a single 50 bitcoin block was not enough to purchase 2 months. That is at least $1.2m a month for VPN service if we use today's prices. If they actually held on to any of the bitcoin from those days, I am guessing the company and the owners have no real financial motivation to sell.
  - rootsudo 5y ago
    ouch, and geez, and ouch. Same boat with hosting services. 100% relatable.
  - Fnoord 5y ago
wintermutestwin 5y ago
Since it comes up often on here, these are the reasons why I use a VPN provider: 1. my threat model is not my government. It seems that the TLAs have thoroughly pwned our privacy for a long time now. (please note that I am in no way advocating for this mass surveillance, but I don't see that I have much choice in the matter) 2. My threat model includes my ISP. I am forced to use a scummy ISP who would openly steal my data if I let them. Same with my mobile provider. 3. My threat model includes the data thieves who have obvious business models built around selling my stolen data to the highest bidder. 4. My threat model includes black hats and script kiddies. 5. Do I trust my VPN provider? Eh. A little. For now. The thing is, I trust them more than #s 2,3,4 above. What other choice do I have?
- EveYoung 5y ago
  How does a VPN help with #3 and #4? Once your data is with a service provider, it doesn't really matter how it got there.
- SmellTheGlove 5y ago
  2. is mine, and I really should get a VPN. I'm not interesting in the least, but I have no doubt xfinity is profiling user data and selling to advertisers.
tpmx 5y ago
FYI: Since they're a Swedish AB/aktiebolag their financial numbers are publicly available: https://www.allabolag.se/5567839807/amagicom-ab https://www.allabolag.se/5567839807/amagicom-ab Surprisingly humble numbers. 2020 revenue was ~$2M.
- Kiro 5y ago
  According to their annual report (which you can download for free from hitta.se) they transferred Mullvad to the subsidiary Mullvad VPN AB in 2020, which had a revenue of $4M: https://www.allabolag.se/5592384001/mullvad-vpn-ab https://www.allabolag.se/5592384001/mullvad-vpn-ab
  - tpmx 5y ago
    Good catch. 2021 revenue will probably be quite a bit more, then.
- scns 5y ago
  Well, i'd assume that only a smaller part of the computer using part of humanity knows what a VPN is. Since they are offering a service out of ideolical reasons, with competitors that advertise agressively, a low revenue/profit is totally fine with me. Enough to keep the lights on and build reserves. Citizens of rich countries can be contended with what they have, which is a lot if you look at the other 90% of humanity. Even if, you are "poor" by your counties standard can still feel rich, content and happy.
fnord77 5y ago
is there any advantage to using the mozilla vpn layer or just using mullvad directly?
- NabiDev 5y ago
  technically the same but for anonymity, u should buy directly.
fabianhjr 5y ago
> [..] is consistent, long-term, and value-based ownership [..] this disqualifies taking outside investment, either through venture capital or going public. They should switch to a cooperative co-owned by workers and customers then. It the easiest legal-entity way of ensuring that continuity. (Coops cannot "take outside investment" nor "go public"; Mullvad would be owned by stakeholders rather than shareholders)
- wintermutestwin 5y ago
  I wonder if they have the Benefit Corporation designation in Sweden?
  - JoachimS 5y ago
    Yes, in Sweden you have a number of legal constructs to use. You can organize a company as a cooperation. It is not a specific legal form of business, but a version of a normal limited company. It is used for non-profit businesses, for example a day care. You can also form a business association - which is fairly common for non-profit organizations. Typically house owners that share a road, have a small pier for their boats etc. Finally you can create a foundation. The foundation has no owners or members, but has a board. It is typically used to manage wealth, often for charity purposes (which I think matches the term used in the U.S.). The most famous foundation in Sweden is probably IKEA[0]. (INAL etc. And [0] yes, I know that the IKEA HQ is in Switzerland, with foundation operations in Holland IRRC. But it was founded in Sweden - and we get mixed up with Switzerland all the time anyway so... ;-)
DavideNL 5y ago
I tried them a few years ago on my iPhone and had issues with connectivity when using it as “always on” VPN. Often lost internet access (i think mostly when ‘switching’ between 3G and Wifi.) So i left them, for ProtonVpn, which has been working great. Does anyone use Mullvad on their mobile, has stability of the connection improved? (speed is not my first priority.) EDIT: why downvotes (without leaving a comment…) ?
- nsomaru 5y ago
  With openvpn on iOS and mullvad, they don’t clear your session immediately when you disconnect so it’s easy to eat up all your “devices” and then be stuck without VPN (“too many device”) until their cache clears. Anyone have a solution for always on mobile VPN using mullvad?
  - RealStickman_ 5y ago
    If you can, maybe try wireguard? I have not had any issues with that on my devices roaming between different networks. I don't use their app though, but the actual Wireguard config files.
- betwixthewires 5y ago
  I'm not using and apple device, but I use them with wireguard on mobile. Works fine for me. I'm pretty sure the mobile WiFi handover is handled in your phone firmware and not by the VPN app, I would guess that's got to do with apple software but I could be wrong.
  - DavideNL 5y ago
    I also use WireGuard with ProtonVpn on iPhone, which works fine.
NabiDev 5y ago
imo still better than any other providers. the only thing bugging me is they should accept payment in xmr(which is untraceable). there is an alternative (ivpn.net) which is a little more expensive and accept in xmr but i've never tested out.
photochemsyn 5y ago
"Mullvad's vision is to make censorship and mass surveillance impractical." I'm pretty convinced that the only way to do this is through enforceable legal restrictions, not through technology. This is because those with deep pockets (nation-states and multinational corporations) will always have the technological edge over any average user. In addition, any operating business has to operate under the laws of the host country, see what happened with Lavabits and its refusal to hand over email encryption keys in 2013: "The court ordered Levison to be fined $5,000 a day beginning 6 August until he handed over electronic copies of the keys. Two days later Levison handed over the keys hours after he shuttered Lavabit." The only way to stop nation-states and multinationals from spying on everyone and everything is to make it illegal for them to do so, and to enforce those laws with meaningful punishments.
- andrey_utkin 5y ago
  This sounds naive. Part of a problem is that people with legislation-changing privileges are on the other side of the conflict. If privacy-seeking people don't have a practical leverage for a negotiation, they can't sustain the legislation and enforcement tilted in their favour. For example, the USSR was meant to be a very liberal and democratic state. At the very beginning, soldiers elected their officers! How long ago have you voted for your favorite manager to manage you at work? But given the "network effects" of the armed and aggressive party organization, the power was quickly centralized and pretty soon lowly individuals' needs and lives were worth nothing.
  - photochemsyn 5y ago
    Well, there was no Bill of Rights in the Soviet Union... or China... or Saudi Arabia. And that Bill of Rights provides a legal basis for opposition to an American government that clearly envies Chinese and Saudi state control systems. Now my point is simply that technology has not allowed repressed people in Saudi Arabia or China to defeat or evade state surveillance technology, has it? Now, I have no doubt the US government would love to have that kind of power - and the only thing stopping it from reaching out and taking that power is the legal system. Of course, blatant violation of the legal system by the state is possible. So is violent armed resistance and civil war. But, I think a government that tried to toss the Bill of Rights would be a government with no legitimacy. See Declaration of Independence.
Trias11 5y ago
On a side note - I think lots of popular, easy to use VPN services with good reviews are actually owned or fully controlled by 3-letter agencies or by group of "eyes". IMHO better pick lesser-known, obscure service for higher safety. If you care of course.
kiryin 5y ago
Privateinternetaccess was the first VPN service I ever purchased, out of necessity when the internet piracy scene first began showing signs of the predatory mess it is today. They happened to sponsor/fund some things in my sphere of interest and were relatively reputable between my circle of acquaintances. But I am sure if you've been paying attention, you know how that ended. Since then I have been a customer of Mullvad's and honestly, no affiliation, they're on another level entirely. Being able to pay in cash and have an account with zero information attached to it brings a peace of mind, even though it's totally unnecessary, at least in my humble use case. Being able to use wireguard directly with no weird app in between fits my needs perfectly as well, goodbye borderline-unsupported custom OpenVPN configurations. This is how an online "service" business should be run imo. My only fear is that they'll meet the same end as PIA at some point, or get themselves into trouble with data-hungry law enforcement.
- peddling-brink 5y ago
  I haven't been paying attention. How did that end? EDIT: Oh, Kape purchased them. I assume that's it.
mdb333 5y ago
Curious what was the impetus for this statement? Rumors about selling out or something else?
- mdb333 5y ago
  NM... presume it's due to the news re: ExpressVPN --> Kape
hnrj95 5y ago
mullvad is absolutely excellent. they’ve definitely stuck to their guns, too
the_duke 5y ago
I haven't seen anyone question why they would write such a blog post in the first place. This might suggest that they have a potential buyer who is aggressively trying to convince them to sell. This could be Mozilla, considering their recent partnership. But more likely either a competitor that doesn't want to see them grow too much, or someone who really wants to get their hands on the data. Like a three letter agency shell company or hacker group.
- jzymbaluk 5y ago
  This was my question: why write this in the first place, since this is basically an announcement of no change. Makes sense that someone is trying to acquire them, especially given how crazy the VPN space has gotten and considering the mozilla deal
- random_78979 5y ago
  To me it seems to be an answer to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28552731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28552731 https://alternativeto.net/news/2021/9/kape-technologies-buys-expressvpn-for-936-million/ https://alternativeto.net/news/2021/9/kape-technologies-buys...
  - the_duke 5y ago
    An attempt to capture customers leaving ExpressVPN makes sense.
sva_ 5y ago
I'm really glad that Mullvad is taking this stance after the recent sale of ExpressVPN. I wonder (hope for them) that they kept the bitcoin they've been getting by some people, including me, when bitcoin was around 1-2 euro each. If so, they must have 'fuck you money' now anyways.
nbzso 5y ago
Honestly, in the moment in which using VPN is outlawed for "whatever <insert societal manufactured consent> reason" I am shutting the Internet down and moving into the woods. Mullvad VPN is the first thing that I setup on every Internet connected device that I own.
aleppe7766 5y ago
A striking difference from the former intelligence official led competitor.
maeln 5y ago
While I applaud Mullvad intention and business model, I wonder how long they will be able to operate this way. Their company is Swedish and therefore must respect Swedish and EU laws. It would be very easy to end up in a ProtonMail/VPN situation. I don't know if Sweden has laws that allow police/judge to order to log one's customer data, but I would be surprised if they don't or at least will have in the future, by their own legislation or EU's.
masterof0 5y ago
I love mullvad too. I don't use it for two reasons: 1- I can't watch Netflix when I'm connected. 2- Does not work reliably in China. Express VPN does work for me, although it is probably not very secure. If they fix those issues, I will switch without a doubt.
- ailun 5y ago
  Same - I would switch immediately if it worked well in China. Express VPN used to work, but after weeks of outages I switched to Astrill.
luke2m 5y ago
Down?
endgame 5y ago
That title made me expect an "incredible journey" post. I'm very glad that it wasn't.
SkyMarshal 5y ago
I assume this is a response to Kape Technologies buying ExpressVPN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28552731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28552731
gumby 5y ago
I use commercial VPN only watching films from other countries. One thing about ExpressVPN is they were good it moving exit points to stay ahead of most of the streaming companies. Does this application matter to mullvad? It's a lot of work to stay ahead of. (I have a separate VPN for when I'm in a public place and it terminates at a machine I own. For movies, I don't care if my traffic is spied on)
seanw444 5y ago
I was shown Mullvad by a YouTuber I respect (Mental Outlaw) and I can't think of a better VPN service. Not only that, but they might just have the most respectable payment model. No accounts. Crypto allowed. Or just plain mailed cash. These guys are excellent.
hcduytWW 5y ago
Thanks to wizardharry(@)programmer(.)net who made it possible for me to see to the truth myself, he helped me hacked into the military system and hear all that has been said about me, never knew that evil has been going on and my life was in danger, i would have been a dead lady by now if not for wizard Harry, i owe my life to him and that's why i will always keep referring him to others, the best way to reach Wizard Harry is to WhatsApp him via +18078086168.

536 points by JoachimS 5y ago

> Mullvad VPN is here to stay, and we are not interested in ever selling it Yeah we don't want another Kape Technologies acquisition[0]. Kape already own Cyberghost, PrivateInternetAccess and Zenmate. If they bought Mullvad, I would immediately stop using Mullvad since Kape is Israeli and could possibly be tapped by Mossad (I keep an open mind about that however). [0] https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/kape-technologies-buys-expressvpn-as-part-of-a-936-million-deal/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/kape-technol...

pgrote 5y ago
Kape also just bought Expressvpn. https://www.expressvpn.com/blog/expressvpn-joining-kape/ https://www.expressvpn.com/blog/expressvpn-joining-kape/ It was a bummer to see the news.
- MentatOnMelange 5y ago
  Wow, I had no idea. I was a longtime PIA user, guess its time to switch again. My only issue with Mullvad is netflix blocks them (potential irony there).
  - RealStickman_ 5y ago
    Some servers used to work for me last time I tried. (It has been a while though)
  - yonig 5y ago
    HBO as well
- aorth 5y ago
  Ah wow, and ExpressVPN was also recently in the news because their CIO was one of three former U.S. intelligence operatives who "illegally helped the United Arab Emirates hack people". https://twitter.com/josephmenn/status/1437885720169836544 https://twitter.com/josephmenn/status/1437885720169836544
JumpCrisscross 5y ago
> don't want another Kape Technologies acquisition Purely for schadenfreude, do we have any evidence the volume of leavers was meaningful?
- crowbahr 5y ago
  They definitely don't post about it. I closed my account with PIA right after the sellout was announced. I received several emails with form letters about Kape actually being really dedicated to privacy and you can totally trust them buying PIA. Made me think that they took a noticeable hit.
- MentatOnMelange 5y ago
  They began offering much more generous deals on PIA after the aquisition, so I'm guessing enough people left for it to affect their bottom line.
deadalus 5y ago
Mullvad is located in Sweden(14 eyes, xkeyscore).
- samsari 5y ago
  SÄPO is not the Mossad
  - sodality2 5y ago
    SÄPO would comply with fourteen eyes directives, no? Is that not what 14 eyes membership implies?
    - mike_d 5y ago
      No, that isn't what membership implies. It is a cooperation and data sharing agreement, it doesn't unify countries intelligence agencies across borders. For example GE makes engines for Boeing airplanes. They may have a cooperative agreement and mutual non-disclosure agreements that allow engineers and designers to share engine attachment and airframe details freely, but that doesn't mean GE employees have access to information on the radio headsets.
  - jeltz 5y ago
    I do not think it is SÄPO you need to worry about, it is FRA who does most spying.
Kiro 5y ago
I believe the whole reason for this post is because Kape just bought ExpressVPN.
sneak 5y ago
You should assume your VPN provider is tapped regardless of who owns it or what jurisdiction it is in. The fiber runs right out of the building. You use a VPN to obscure your client IP from websites and app backends, not government mass surveillance.
xvector 5y ago
I don't know why you'd give an Israeli tech firm the benefit of the doubt. The country's tech industry is literally surveillance. Kape is not just "possibly" a surveillance operation, it 100% definitely is.

rgrmrts 5y ago

I’ve been a Mullvad user for a while now and it’s a really great service. Good speeds, good apps for mobile and desktop, and the flexibility to use wireguard yourself if needed. I stopped using privateinternetaccess when their ownership stuff became really sketchy. I’d highly recommend Mullvad to anyone else looking for a good VPN provider. Side note, Mozilla VPN uses Mullvad’s network under the hood.

shapefrog 5y ago
I googled to see if they are one of the vpn's that avertise agressively, apparently if I am not using <insert vpn> I am going to have cybercriminals litterally reach from under my desk and inappropriately touch me. They seem to be one that doesnt have an affiliate programme, so they go to the top of my trust ranking.
- hoppyhoppy2 5y ago
  They're also NYT Wirecutter's top pick, in large part because of their strong stance on privacy, publicly-available 3rd-party security audit and ability to pay anonymously. https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-vpn-service/ https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/reviews/best-vpn-service/
  - basch 5y ago
    and privacyguides.org (formerly privacytools.io) https://www.privacyguides.org/providers/vpn/ https://www.privacyguides.org/providers/vpn/
- y4mi 5y ago
  You can even pay for their service by mailing physical cash to their office! I've been on a subscription for ages now. Haven't really cared about that amount of anonymity so I'm just using a Paypal for payment though
  - rchaud 5y ago
    Protonmail/ProtonVPN allows cash payments by snail mail as well.

jpetrucc 5y ago

I love Mullvad, I've been a happy user of theirs for many years!

mbesto 5y ago

"we are not interested in ever selling it." I know very little about Mullvad specifically, but my general presumption when an organization says this, it means the opposite. Everyone has a price.

daniel-cussen 5y ago
In economic theory, yes, everyone has a price.
- vibrio 5y ago
  That price isn’t always denominated in money. There are people that value altruism or other motivations.
- JoachimS 5y ago
  That is why it isn't a scientific theory. It is an assumption.
chmod775 5y ago
> Everyone has a price. No. You really can't buy some people. Either because they already have more money than they know how to use, or because they have, you know, principles.
- shawnz 5y ago
  Money can be used to better realize your principles. It's sort of like the trolley problem. What if you were being offered so much money that you felt you could achieve a greater net good with it than without?
  - chmod775 5y ago
    > What if you were being offered so much money that you felt you could achieve a greater net good with it than without? "The ends don't justify the means" is also a principle. And it's a good one. 'Many a great evil has been done in the name of good' etc. If someone won't kill their grandma for one billion dollars, they probably won't do it for 10 billion either.

hikerclimber1 5y ago

Everything is subjective. Especially laws. That’s why people should revolt against their government.

Scarbutt 5y ago

We keep no activity logs. Your IP address is replaced by one of ours, ensuring that your device's activity and location are not linked to you. Where have we seen this before... ;) Surely if requested by their government they will keep logs for any specific customer, just like it happen with protonmail.

Nextgrid 5y ago
I don't get the business model of a VPN. You're willingly becoming a magnet for scum, crime, piracy and malware, with maybe 1% of legitimate users. Surely the support costs of dealing with all the constant abuse reports would outweigh the fee they are charging, not to mention the costs of running the infrastructure (if they're used for piracy they'd need quite a bit of bandwidth)? Even if you are legally in the clear, it doesn't strike me as a business someone wants to get involved in unless there are alternative objectives they don't disclose.
- ziddoap 5y ago
  >with maybe 1% of legitimate users I'm interested to know where you sourced that number? There are plenty of legitimate use cases for a VPN. While I agree there is definitely users with subpar intentions, I highly doubt 99% of people subscribing to a VPN are doing it because they are 'scum'.
  - danachow 5y ago
    I mean his comment is the illustrative argument for why VPNs exist. Basically in a world where a Westerner (a historically relatively more liberal bunch) categorizes 99% of everything they don’t agree with as scum, copyright infringement, or worse - that’s all the motivation you need for safe, reliable communication infrastructure.
- oefrha 5y ago
  > Surely the support costs of dealing with all the constant abuse reports would outweigh the fee they are charging Employing /dev/null to handle abuse reports is usually pretty cheap.

_joel 5y ago

I've been using Mullvad with Wireguard for some time now, it's been pretty rock solid apart from occasions where one host will get saturated but a quick switch to another in the region and it's never been a big issue (you get that will all providers I suppose).

ziddoap 5y ago

I've been a long-time user of Mullvad, and can only say good things. No usernames, cash payments, published audits by reputable companies, handy FAQ/guide section, sleek application, split-tunelling, etc. In the mess that is VPN products, it's refreshing to see Mullvad stick to its original goals.

OJFord 5y ago

Oof, that's a scary way to title such a harmless/reassuring article!

dylan604 5y ago
Clickbait works both ways.
kzrdude 5y ago
What's scary about it? It's quite mundane/matter of fact
- OJFord 5y ago
  That's objectively true, but it's the sort of style we so often see for 'we have sold the company to blah' or 'we are ceasing operations' etc. posts; so it's, to me anyway, 'scary' by association.
- xvector 5y ago
  Usually such titles are used when the company has been sold
- tomxor 5y ago
  When you are an appreciative customer, this title just feels ominous.

aborsy 5y ago

The problem is, there is no way to verify such statements.

JoachimS 5y ago
All of the statements or specific ones? That the owners are the one stated can be verified. The business register (a Swedish agency) is here: https://bolagsverket.se/ https://bolagsverket.se/ The registration, books etc for limited companies (aktiebolag AB) are public information. As someone else pointed out, there are also third party information sources like allabolag: https://www.allabolag.se/5592384001/mullvad-vpn-ab https://www.allabolag.se/5592384001/mullvad-vpn-ab

Arubis 5y ago

Mullvad has been at the top of my mentally-disorganized pile of VPN trust for years. However, being the best and growing in popularity will eventually be a liability, if it isn't already: the more mindshare, popularity, and traffic, the more appealing they become as a target.

IceWreck 5y ago

Hey, I know this is the original title but please rename it to be more descriptive. I saw the title , assumed the worst and then was reassured on reading the article.

JoachimS 5y ago
what would be a better title?
- xvector 5y ago
  "Mullvad VPN isn't going anywhere" "We will not sell MullvadVPN"
  - potamic 5y ago
    Sounds quite clickbaity. I actually like titles the describe the subject rather than the conclusion.
    - culopatin 5y ago
      How would giving the punchline cause more bite than an undefined outcome? If that was the case you wouldn’t see titles like “you won’t believe what happens when you X” and instead you would see “nothing out of the ordinary happened when we X, save yourself 10 min”. This title is clickbait in the sense that you see it and you have to wonder “oh crap are they selling out? Let’s click and find out”. If they said “Mullvad is not selling and we tell you why” there is no bait.
      - potamic 5y ago
        Because the conclusion is usually more nuanced and putting it in the title makes you start to form an opinion before reading the article.

risho 5y ago

mullvad has a long history of proving itself as being a good faith actor in the space. it's also first to step into new technology and infrastructure because they are truly interested and ideologically invested in what they are doing. they don't use accounts or collect email addresses. they accept cash in the mail no matter what you think about crypto they were probably one of if not the first companies in the world to start accepting bitcoin in 2010 and have always self hosted their infrastructure, not offloading it to bitpay or whatever other company that just funnels right into chain analysis companies. back then bitcoin was on the super fringe and the only people interested and involved in it where people that were ideologically aligned with it's vision. They started funding wireguard before it was cool and before anyone else gave a shit about wireguard. They are the backbone for mozilla's vpn. You can never REALLY be sure, but from what I can tell mullvad is the most honest and sincere vpn company in the space and I wouldn't even consider going anywhere else.

EthOptimist 5y ago
So the main thing risk would be if they are consistently logging things such as client IP, user agent etc.
slg 5y ago
>no matter what you think about crypto they were probably one of if not the first companies in the world to start accepting bitcoin in 2010 I remember spending north of 25 bitcoins on a month of Mullvad back in those days. I don't remember the exact price, but I do remember mining a single 50 bitcoin block was not enough to purchase 2 months. That is at least $1.2m a month for VPN service if we use today's prices. If they actually held on to any of the bitcoin from those days, I am guessing the company and the owners have no real financial motivation to sell.
- rootsudo 5y ago
  ouch, and geez, and ouch. Same boat with hosting services. 100% relatable.
- Fnoord 5y ago

wintermutestwin 5y ago

Since it comes up often on here, these are the reasons why I use a VPN provider: 1. my threat model is not my government. It seems that the TLAs have thoroughly pwned our privacy for a long time now. (please note that I am in no way advocating for this mass surveillance, but I don't see that I have much choice in the matter) 2. My threat model includes my ISP. I am forced to use a scummy ISP who would openly steal my data if I let them. Same with my mobile provider. 3. My threat model includes the data thieves who have obvious business models built around selling my stolen data to the highest bidder. 4. My threat model includes black hats and script kiddies. 5. Do I trust my VPN provider? Eh. A little. For now. The thing is, I trust them more than #s 2,3,4 above. What other choice do I have?

EveYoung 5y ago
How does a VPN help with #3 and #4? Once your data is with a service provider, it doesn't really matter how it got there.
SmellTheGlove 5y ago
2. is mine, and I really should get a VPN. I'm not interesting in the least, but I have no doubt xfinity is profiling user data and selling to advertisers.

tpmx 5y ago

FYI: Since they're a Swedish AB/aktiebolag their financial numbers are publicly available: https://www.allabolag.se/5567839807/amagicom-ab https://www.allabolag.se/5567839807/amagicom-ab Surprisingly humble numbers. 2020 revenue was ~$2M.

Kiro 5y ago
According to their annual report (which you can download for free from hitta.se) they transferred Mullvad to the subsidiary Mullvad VPN AB in 2020, which had a revenue of $4M: https://www.allabolag.se/5592384001/mullvad-vpn-ab https://www.allabolag.se/5592384001/mullvad-vpn-ab
- tpmx 5y ago
  Good catch. 2021 revenue will probably be quite a bit more, then.
scns 5y ago
Well, i'd assume that only a smaller part of the computer using part of humanity knows what a VPN is. Since they are offering a service out of ideolical reasons, with competitors that advertise agressively, a low revenue/profit is totally fine with me. Enough to keep the lights on and build reserves. Citizens of rich countries can be contended with what they have, which is a lot if you look at the other 90% of humanity. Even if, you are "poor" by your counties standard can still feel rich, content and happy.

fnord77 5y ago

is there any advantage to using the mozilla vpn layer or just using mullvad directly?

NabiDev 5y ago
technically the same but for anonymity, u should buy directly.

fabianhjr 5y ago

> [..] is consistent, long-term, and value-based ownership [..] this disqualifies taking outside investment, either through venture capital or going public. They should switch to a cooperative co-owned by workers and customers then. It the easiest legal-entity way of ensuring that continuity. (Coops cannot "take outside investment" nor "go public"; Mullvad would be owned by stakeholders rather than shareholders)

wintermutestwin 5y ago
I wonder if they have the Benefit Corporation designation in Sweden?
- JoachimS 5y ago
  Yes, in Sweden you have a number of legal constructs to use. You can organize a company as a cooperation. It is not a specific legal form of business, but a version of a normal limited company. It is used for non-profit businesses, for example a day care. You can also form a business association - which is fairly common for non-profit organizations. Typically house owners that share a road, have a small pier for their boats etc. Finally you can create a foundation. The foundation has no owners or members, but has a board. It is typically used to manage wealth, often for charity purposes (which I think matches the term used in the U.S.). The most famous foundation in Sweden is probably IKEA[0]. (INAL etc. And [0] yes, I know that the IKEA HQ is in Switzerland, with foundation operations in Holland IRRC. But it was founded in Sweden - and we get mixed up with Switzerland all the time anyway so... ;-)

DavideNL 5y ago

I tried them a few years ago on my iPhone and had issues with connectivity when using it as “always on” VPN. Often lost internet access (i think mostly when ‘switching’ between 3G and Wifi.) So i left them, for ProtonVpn, which has been working great. Does anyone use Mullvad on their mobile, has stability of the connection improved? (speed is not my first priority.) EDIT: why downvotes (without leaving a comment…) ?

nsomaru 5y ago
With openvpn on iOS and mullvad, they don’t clear your session immediately when you disconnect so it’s easy to eat up all your “devices” and then be stuck without VPN (“too many device”) until their cache clears. Anyone have a solution for always on mobile VPN using mullvad?
- RealStickman_ 5y ago
  If you can, maybe try wireguard? I have not had any issues with that on my devices roaming between different networks. I don't use their app though, but the actual Wireguard config files.
betwixthewires 5y ago
I'm not using and apple device, but I use them with wireguard on mobile. Works fine for me. I'm pretty sure the mobile WiFi handover is handled in your phone firmware and not by the VPN app, I would guess that's got to do with apple software but I could be wrong.
- DavideNL 5y ago
  I also use WireGuard with ProtonVpn on iPhone, which works fine.

NabiDev 5y ago

imo still better than any other providers. the only thing bugging me is they should accept payment in xmr(which is untraceable). there is an alternative (ivpn.net) which is a little more expensive and accept in xmr but i've never tested out.

photochemsyn 5y ago

"Mullvad's vision is to make censorship and mass surveillance impractical." I'm pretty convinced that the only way to do this is through enforceable legal restrictions, not through technology. This is because those with deep pockets (nation-states and multinational corporations) will always have the technological edge over any average user. In addition, any operating business has to operate under the laws of the host country, see what happened with Lavabits and its refusal to hand over email encryption keys in 2013: "The court ordered Levison to be fined $5,000 a day beginning 6 August until he handed over electronic copies of the keys. Two days later Levison handed over the keys hours after he shuttered Lavabit." The only way to stop nation-states and multinationals from spying on everyone and everything is to make it illegal for them to do so, and to enforce those laws with meaningful punishments.

andrey_utkin 5y ago
This sounds naive. Part of a problem is that people with legislation-changing privileges are on the other side of the conflict. If privacy-seeking people don't have a practical leverage for a negotiation, they can't sustain the legislation and enforcement tilted in their favour. For example, the USSR was meant to be a very liberal and democratic state. At the very beginning, soldiers elected their officers! How long ago have you voted for your favorite manager to manage you at work? But given the "network effects" of the armed and aggressive party organization, the power was quickly centralized and pretty soon lowly individuals' needs and lives were worth nothing.
- photochemsyn 5y ago
  Well, there was no Bill of Rights in the Soviet Union... or China... or Saudi Arabia. And that Bill of Rights provides a legal basis for opposition to an American government that clearly envies Chinese and Saudi state control systems. Now my point is simply that technology has not allowed repressed people in Saudi Arabia or China to defeat or evade state surveillance technology, has it? Now, I have no doubt the US government would love to have that kind of power - and the only thing stopping it from reaching out and taking that power is the legal system. Of course, blatant violation of the legal system by the state is possible. So is violent armed resistance and civil war. But, I think a government that tried to toss the Bill of Rights would be a government with no legitimacy. See Declaration of Independence.

Trias11 5y ago

On a side note - I think lots of popular, easy to use VPN services with good reviews are actually owned or fully controlled by 3-letter agencies or by group of "eyes". IMHO better pick lesser-known, obscure service for higher safety. If you care of course.

kiryin 5y ago

Privateinternetaccess was the first VPN service I ever purchased, out of necessity when the internet piracy scene first began showing signs of the predatory mess it is today. They happened to sponsor/fund some things in my sphere of interest and were relatively reputable between my circle of acquaintances. But I am sure if you've been paying attention, you know how that ended. Since then I have been a customer of Mullvad's and honestly, no affiliation, they're on another level entirely. Being able to pay in cash and have an account with zero information attached to it brings a peace of mind, even though it's totally unnecessary, at least in my humble use case. Being able to use wireguard directly with no weird app in between fits my needs perfectly as well, goodbye borderline-unsupported custom OpenVPN configurations. This is how an online "service" business should be run imo. My only fear is that they'll meet the same end as PIA at some point, or get themselves into trouble with data-hungry law enforcement.

peddling-brink 5y ago
I haven't been paying attention. How did that end? EDIT: Oh, Kape purchased them. I assume that's it.

mdb333 5y ago

Curious what was the impetus for this statement? Rumors about selling out or something else?

mdb333 5y ago
NM... presume it's due to the news re: ExpressVPN --> Kape

hnrj95 5y ago

mullvad is absolutely excellent. they’ve definitely stuck to their guns, too

the_duke 5y ago

I haven't seen anyone question why they would write such a blog post in the first place. This might suggest that they have a potential buyer who is aggressively trying to convince them to sell. This could be Mozilla, considering their recent partnership. But more likely either a competitor that doesn't want to see them grow too much, or someone who really wants to get their hands on the data. Like a three letter agency shell company or hacker group.

jzymbaluk 5y ago
This was my question: why write this in the first place, since this is basically an announcement of no change. Makes sense that someone is trying to acquire them, especially given how crazy the VPN space has gotten and considering the mozilla deal
random_78979 5y ago
To me it seems to be an answer to https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28552731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28552731 https://alternativeto.net/news/2021/9/kape-technologies-buys-expressvpn-for-936-million/ https://alternativeto.net/news/2021/9/kape-technologies-buys...
- the_duke 5y ago
  An attempt to capture customers leaving ExpressVPN makes sense.

sva_ 5y ago

I'm really glad that Mullvad is taking this stance after the recent sale of ExpressVPN. I wonder (hope for them) that they kept the bitcoin they've been getting by some people, including me, when bitcoin was around 1-2 euro each. If so, they must have 'fuck you money' now anyways.

nbzso 5y ago

Honestly, in the moment in which using VPN is outlawed for "whatever <insert societal manufactured consent> reason" I am shutting the Internet down and moving into the woods. Mullvad VPN is the first thing that I setup on every Internet connected device that I own.

aleppe7766 5y ago

A striking difference from the former intelligence official led competitor.

maeln 5y ago

While I applaud Mullvad intention and business model, I wonder how long they will be able to operate this way. Their company is Swedish and therefore must respect Swedish and EU laws. It would be very easy to end up in a ProtonMail/VPN situation. I don't know if Sweden has laws that allow police/judge to order to log one's customer data, but I would be surprised if they don't or at least will have in the future, by their own legislation or EU's.

masterof0 5y ago

I love mullvad too. I don't use it for two reasons: 1- I can't watch Netflix when I'm connected. 2- Does not work reliably in China. Express VPN does work for me, although it is probably not very secure. If they fix those issues, I will switch without a doubt.

ailun 5y ago
Same - I would switch immediately if it worked well in China. Express VPN used to work, but after weeks of outages I switched to Astrill.

luke2m 5y ago

Down?

endgame 5y ago

That title made me expect an "incredible journey" post. I'm very glad that it wasn't.

SkyMarshal 5y ago

I assume this is a response to Kape Technologies buying ExpressVPN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28552731 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28552731

gumby 5y ago

I use commercial VPN only watching films from other countries. One thing about ExpressVPN is they were good it moving exit points to stay ahead of most of the streaming companies. Does this application matter to mullvad? It's a lot of work to stay ahead of. (I have a separate VPN for when I'm in a public place and it terminates at a machine I own. For movies, I don't care if my traffic is spied on)

seanw444 5y ago

I was shown Mullvad by a YouTuber I respect (Mental Outlaw) and I can't think of a better VPN service. Not only that, but they might just have the most respectable payment model. No accounts. Crypto allowed. Or just plain mailed cash. These guys are excellent.

hcduytWW 5y ago

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