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https://archive.is/egPlc https://archive.is/egPlc “The research that we’ve seen is that using social apps to connect with other people can have positive mental

https://archive.is/egPlc https://archive.is/egPlc “The research that we’ve seen is that using social apps to connect with other people can have positive mental-health benefits,” CEO Mark Zuckerberg said at a congressional hearing... “We make body image issues worse for one in three teen girls,” said one slide from 2019, summarizing research about teen girls who experience the issues. “Teens blame Instagram for increases in the rate of anxiety and depression,” said another slide. “This reaction was unprompted and consistent across all groups.” From what researchers said in a March 2020 slide presentation posted to Facebook’s internal message board.

spockz 5y ago
This shows how a statement can be factually true and completely disingenuous at the same time. Yes 1/3 are effected badly but we just say that it can have positive effects. Just omitting the fact that it often has a detrimental effect…
- everdrive 5y ago
  It sounds like this is part of the point you're making, but this sort of statement should only be considered a lie. Some philosophers might correctly call this "bullshit," however colloquially it's the same as a lie: it intends to deceive.
  - Loughla 5y ago
    Honestly, though, when did 'technically correct' become the baseline for messaging? If you say what's 'technically correct' even if you ignore the entire mountain of steaming horse shit right behind it, you get a pass anymore. Why? Why is this socially acceptable? Is this different from the past, or are we just more aware of it?
    - __s 5y ago
      It isn't different from the past; see tobacco
    - ysavir 5y ago
      Whenever I hear people say "technically correct is the best kind of correct", I inform them that that's technically incorrect.
    - lmkg 5y ago
      First, it's possible to do worse and be factually incorrect. This was, and still is, common. Second, it's possible to objective demonstrate whether a factual statement is correct or not. But whether a statement is disingenuous or misleading cannot be proven with the same level of certainty (absent evidence of intent). So bad-faith actors can always guarantee that disputing that contention will end in an "agree to disagree" draw at worst.
  - spockz 5y ago
    It was. I was so disgusted with how this way of saying “technically true” things is used and accepted. As the other comment stated.
- pulse7 5y ago
  They are "bending the truth" which is per definition "to say something that is not true or that misleads people but that is usually not regarded as a serious or harmful lie"...
  - mgh2 5y ago
    A half truth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-truth
    - dmix 5y ago
      A 2/3rds truth
- gilbetron 5y ago
  Yes, a nuclear bomb explosion can be bad, but there is a case where someone had a tree knocked down that they were going to have to pay to get cut down, so nuclear bombs can have positive effects!
  - franga2000 5y ago
    This is also disingenuous, since they could've gotten the tree cut down without the nuke and so the nuke has no "exclusive" positive value. Social networks have some positive value that is exclusive to them, like the ability for people to connect with friends as well as diverse groups of strangers - both things that would otherwise be much harder if not impossible for many.
    - ysavir 5y ago
      Exclusive to social networks... And restaurants, bars, parks, meetup groups, local events, email lists, chat servers (eg Discord), and generally taking the time to meet your friends and family in person rather than on the web. It's only "much harder if not impossible" for lack of trying. And while yes, there are some out there that simply don't have such options, we also have people that need to cut down a tree but can't afford the work, and so simply hope it won't fall on their house the next time it gets windy.
      - franga2000 5y ago
        Because in reality, all friends and family totally live withing reasonable travel distance of each other and interesting people will always pop into your local bar at the exact time you're there and wear a shirt outlining why you should spend your time trying to meet them as opposed to literally anyone else in the bar. Email lists and chat servers are just Facebook with extra steps. The only difference ends up being the fact that Facebook-like social networks suggest you people and content you might like from a giant pool, whereas the alternatives have rather limited pools and the signal to noise ratio is pathetic because you get literally everything that is posted and have to filter through it manually. Don't get me wrong, I hate Facebook and only use it on maybe a handful of occasions per year, but you can't tell me that it didn't enable things that weren't possible for many before it was invented.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- pnutjam 5y ago
  Yup, if a gang of 7 beats and robs somebody; you can accurately say 7 out of 8 people improved their situation.
bthrn 5y ago
Mark’s use of the word “can” is what makes it technically not perjury.
- tw04 5y ago
  It's also why he looked like he was taking a shower the whole time. He knew he was lying through his teeth but he had to ensure he used wording that would make his statements technically accurate. I'm guessing he spent a month with his lawyers preparing what words he could and couldn't use in his responses.
- kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
  And Frosted Sugar Bombs can be part of a nutritious breakfast.
  - rlewkov 5y ago
    I like a bowl of Frosted Sugar Bombs along with an egg white omelet and fat free no-sugar yogurt :-)
  - keville 5y ago
    "I won't eat any cereal that doesn't turn the milk purple."
  - Breza 5y ago
    This is too accurate. My baby just turned 1 and I'm finally realizing how much sugar is in toddler food.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jefftk 5y ago
On the other hand, teens blaming Instagram does not mean Instagram actually has that effect.
- Tarsul 5y ago
  there was this absolutely devastating graphic about rising suicide rates of teen girls which coincided with mobiles and especially instagram. Sorry can't find it right now.
  - deepfriedrice 5y ago
    The cdc [1] has some figures that show a remarkably clear trend upward after ~2007. But IIRC it's pretty even across gender. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db352-h.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db352-h.pdf
    - malfist 5y ago
      Facebook might be asking girls where their body image issues came from, but boys/men are not much different. It's reasonable that if one gender is developing self esteem issue from a social network, then the other gender _probably_ is too.
      - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
        I wonder, though, if body image issues tend to manifest differently in boys and girls. I suspect that we're somewhat better at spotting girls' issues than we are at boys'.
        Dma54rhs 5y ago
        No one cares about the boy issues and while maturing they find out about it very quick.
    - sangnoir 5y ago
      So, around the same time as the Great Recession?
kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
At some point I just wish Zuckerberg would give one single fuck.
- andrewingram 5y ago
  I often think of Facebook/Zuckerberg as the perfect example of why having a mission statement (something something connecting all the people) that seems perfectly non-controversial in a vacuum, often leads to a willing delusion that this must mean it's always a good thing and justifies any means. They reach a point where they're fundamentally unable to honestly ask themselves whether their "good thing" is actually good. I have a fairly respectable social graph on Facebook and Twitter, but far fewer actual friends than I did in the pre-social network days. A row in a database isn't connection, and it isn't good.
  - wussboy 5y ago
    This is a very interesting point. As someone who wants to start an organization with a very strong mission statement, it brings a sense of caution. Is it the mission statement itself which is dangerous? Or is it possible to come up with a "good" one?
    - JKCalhoun 5y ago
      Mission statement: WWJD (I was joking with the comment, but I'm not so sure now.)
      - imilk 5y ago
        What would jeffrey dahmer do?
    - Torwald 5y ago
      Michael Hyatt in his "Vision driven leader" book makes a good distinction between vision an mission, which I think is helpful to you. I recommend you read the book, it is right on your avenue.
andreime 5y ago
I'm not defending Facebook and I just had some thoughts reading the quotes and am curious what you think of them. 1. I remember that while growing up fashion magazines, actors/actresses and I want to say peer pressure (but am fearful its incorrect) were a big source of body image issues. 2. Maybe it's a side effect of our society or "normal" to have security issues while growing up. We've been having good childhoods for how long - 100 years? Maybe there are some feelings that we never had the option of expressing or feeling.
- tclancy 5y ago
  Magazines came once a month, the people in them were clearly supposed to be uncommonly attractive and they couldn't talk back to you.
- karxxm 5y ago
  I think these social media platforms give teenagers the feeling, that everyone is pretty and successful. Back in the days, only famous people where in fashion magazines. They where an elite group of people one could easily distinguish from. But nowadays, there are so many "noname" persons out there, having a successful instagram feed. This could create the impression that all people out there are good looking and successful, except yourself.
  - Grustaf 5y ago
    Yeah, that's exactly true. It's cargo culting. Super models are beautiful and popular, so if I pay for a photo shoot I am also beautiful and popular seems to be the logic of many "influencers".
  - Breza 5y ago
    Very well said, I totally agree
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  > 1. I remember that while growing up fashion magazines, actors/actresses and I want to say peer pressure (but am fearful its incorrect) were a big source of body image issues. I remember reading somewhere, can't remember where, something that addressed this point. Broadly speaking, the idea was that "people in magazines" weren't perceived as "peers", so you wouldn't compare yourself to them in the same way as you'd compare with a classmate, or some other "regular person", "just like yourself".
annoyingnoob 5y ago
This is pretty much how something like a JD Power survey works, they find the one thing that you might be number 1 at and promote it - while ignoring anything that could detract. That one thing might be true but it does not change or eliminate other things.
pfortuny 5y ago
"Using social apps to connect with other people can have positive mental-health benefits" That statement cannot be false because it is devoid of any content, being a mere hypothetical. The fact that it is surrounded by "research" is meaningless as well, as the aforementioned sentence is like saying "the elements of the empty set fulfil all properties"... So no, they are not contradicting themselves. They are simply and wantonly misleading people.
- jxramos 5y ago
  wow this is fascinating, taking the veneer of something in the tautological space and using it as sheep's clothing over something known to be a wolf. There's something curious about this form of misleading that deserves to be identified and named to be called out in future instances.
  - dweekly 5y ago
    "Foods containing sugar have been found to save lives in a number of studies." "Regular smoking use is associated with lower BMI, which is shown to correlate with improved heart health and lower mortality rates." "Use of fossil fuels powers a number of ecology-preserving tasks, allowing us to care for the environment in a way we could not without this amazing source of Earth-loving fuel."
    - gerry_shaw 5y ago
      You are far too good at crafting these passages.
      - dgs_sgd 5y ago
        It's fairly easy if you understand the meaning of "can be true". There can be countless instances where it's not true but if you find just _one_ instance where it's true, then your "can be true" statement must be true.
    - pmarreck 5y ago
dont__panic 5y ago
Just like smoking cigarettes can have the positive side-effect of reducing your chance of catching covid!
aerosmile 5y ago
Sorry for hijacking this thread, but whoever posted this information in an internal message board was keen on finding a method to force the company to act on this. Was it the right thing to do? Yes. Was it meant to be leaked? 100%. Running a company in today's environment feels very different than 20 years ago, and to make it clear - it's better for the world this way. Any employee - no matter how low or high ranking - has the ability to erase a significant amount of enterprise value from any business, no matter how large or small. This is driven by improved moral standards, but also extreme connectivity that we have in terms of obtaining information internally (slack, notion, google drive and thousands of other software solutions that have increased everyone's access to documents) and sharing it with the outside world (social media, easy access to journalists, readers' interest in holding companies accountable). I would be surprised if we don't experience some type of a push back from the companies. At the very least, I imagine access to info will be reduced (already happened at Google), and also that we'll increasingly start seeing new ways of how employees are connected with each other (both in terms of policy as well as actual barriers that will prohibit anyone from reaching too many people). I imagine that companies will also start researching new candidates' propensity for activism by analyzing their social media content. For example, if you post "tax the rich!" on Facebook, I imagine that in the not so distant future that will have a negative impact on your market value. If there's one thing that I've learned, it's that every action triggers a reaction (which is time-delayed in the sense that it arrives late and also overshoots the original target), and the constant yo-yoing between those two forces is what explains much of the irrational behavior in the world.
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  >I would be surprised if we don't experience some type of a push back from the companies. One thing could be to hire fewer people. Oddly large software companies is an evergreen topic on HN. Every middle manager wants to empire-build, but if each new hire is a potential leak, then that could be a brake on Google's relentless goal of hitting 1M employees by 2030: https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106318886-157800431271520200102_google_headcount.png https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106318886-157800431271...
- Breza 5y ago
agumonkey 5y ago
1/3, if confirmed, is sadly insane
thewarrior 5y ago
I find it interesting that Instagram promoting celebrity culture has provoked such a backlash but the Chinese governments attempts to tackle the same on their streaming platforms is seen as misguided.
- ptr2voidStar 5y ago
  How dare you shine a torch on our blindspot!
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

spockz 5y ago

This shows how a statement can be factually true and completely disingenuous at the same time. Yes 1/3 are effected badly but we just say that it can have positive effects. Just omitting the fact that it often has a detrimental effect…

everdrive 5y ago
It sounds like this is part of the point you're making, but this sort of statement should only be considered a lie. Some philosophers might correctly call this "bullshit," however colloquially it's the same as a lie: it intends to deceive.
- Loughla 5y ago
  Honestly, though, when did 'technically correct' become the baseline for messaging? If you say what's 'technically correct' even if you ignore the entire mountain of steaming horse shit right behind it, you get a pass anymore. Why? Why is this socially acceptable? Is this different from the past, or are we just more aware of it?
  - __s 5y ago
    It isn't different from the past; see tobacco
  - ysavir 5y ago
    Whenever I hear people say "technically correct is the best kind of correct", I inform them that that's technically incorrect.
  - lmkg 5y ago
    First, it's possible to do worse and be factually incorrect. This was, and still is, common. Second, it's possible to objective demonstrate whether a factual statement is correct or not. But whether a statement is disingenuous or misleading cannot be proven with the same level of certainty (absent evidence of intent). So bad-faith actors can always guarantee that disputing that contention will end in an "agree to disagree" draw at worst.
- spockz 5y ago
  It was. I was so disgusted with how this way of saying “technically true” things is used and accepted. As the other comment stated.
pulse7 5y ago
They are "bending the truth" which is per definition "to say something that is not true or that misleads people but that is usually not regarded as a serious or harmful lie"...
- mgh2 5y ago
  A half truth: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-truth https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Half-truth
  - dmix 5y ago
    A 2/3rds truth
gilbetron 5y ago
Yes, a nuclear bomb explosion can be bad, but there is a case where someone had a tree knocked down that they were going to have to pay to get cut down, so nuclear bombs can have positive effects!
- franga2000 5y ago
  This is also disingenuous, since they could've gotten the tree cut down without the nuke and so the nuke has no "exclusive" positive value. Social networks have some positive value that is exclusive to them, like the ability for people to connect with friends as well as diverse groups of strangers - both things that would otherwise be much harder if not impossible for many.
  - ysavir 5y ago
    Exclusive to social networks... And restaurants, bars, parks, meetup groups, local events, email lists, chat servers (eg Discord), and generally taking the time to meet your friends and family in person rather than on the web. It's only "much harder if not impossible" for lack of trying. And while yes, there are some out there that simply don't have such options, we also have people that need to cut down a tree but can't afford the work, and so simply hope it won't fall on their house the next time it gets windy.
    - franga2000 5y ago
      Because in reality, all friends and family totally live withing reasonable travel distance of each other and interesting people will always pop into your local bar at the exact time you're there and wear a shirt outlining why you should spend your time trying to meet them as opposed to literally anyone else in the bar. Email lists and chat servers are just Facebook with extra steps. The only difference ends up being the fact that Facebook-like social networks suggest you people and content you might like from a giant pool, whereas the alternatives have rather limited pools and the signal to noise ratio is pathetic because you get literally everything that is posted and have to filter through it manually. Don't get me wrong, I hate Facebook and only use it on maybe a handful of occasions per year, but you can't tell me that it didn't enable things that weren't possible for many before it was invented.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pnutjam 5y ago
Yup, if a gang of 7 beats and robs somebody; you can accurately say 7 out of 8 people improved their situation.

bthrn 5y ago

Mark’s use of the word “can” is what makes it technically not perjury.

tw04 5y ago
It's also why he looked like he was taking a shower the whole time. He knew he was lying through his teeth but he had to ensure he used wording that would make his statements technically accurate. I'm guessing he spent a month with his lawyers preparing what words he could and couldn't use in his responses.
kwertyoowiyop 5y ago
And Frosted Sugar Bombs can be part of a nutritious breakfast.
- rlewkov 5y ago
  I like a bowl of Frosted Sugar Bombs along with an egg white omelet and fat free no-sugar yogurt :-)
- keville 5y ago
  "I won't eat any cereal that doesn't turn the milk purple."
- Breza 5y ago
  This is too accurate. My baby just turned 1 and I'm finally realizing how much sugar is in toddler food.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

jefftk 5y ago

On the other hand, teens blaming Instagram does not mean Instagram actually has that effect.

Tarsul 5y ago
there was this absolutely devastating graphic about rising suicide rates of teen girls which coincided with mobiles and especially instagram. Sorry can't find it right now.
- deepfriedrice 5y ago
  The cdc [1] has some figures that show a remarkably clear trend upward after ~2007. But IIRC it's pretty even across gender. [1] https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db352-h.pdf https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/databriefs/db352-h.pdf
  - malfist 5y ago
    Facebook might be asking girls where their body image issues came from, but boys/men are not much different. It's reasonable that if one gender is developing self esteem issue from a social network, then the other gender _probably_ is too.
    - AnimalMuppet 5y ago
      I wonder, though, if body image issues tend to manifest differently in boys and girls. I suspect that we're somewhat better at spotting girls' issues than we are at boys'.
      - Dma54rhs 5y ago
        No one cares about the boy issues and while maturing they find out about it very quick.
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    So, around the same time as the Great Recession?

kwertyoowiyop 5y ago

At some point I just wish Zuckerberg would give one single fuck.

andrewingram 5y ago
I often think of Facebook/Zuckerberg as the perfect example of why having a mission statement (something something connecting all the people) that seems perfectly non-controversial in a vacuum, often leads to a willing delusion that this must mean it's always a good thing and justifies any means. They reach a point where they're fundamentally unable to honestly ask themselves whether their "good thing" is actually good. I have a fairly respectable social graph on Facebook and Twitter, but far fewer actual friends than I did in the pre-social network days. A row in a database isn't connection, and it isn't good.
- wussboy 5y ago
  This is a very interesting point. As someone who wants to start an organization with a very strong mission statement, it brings a sense of caution. Is it the mission statement itself which is dangerous? Or is it possible to come up with a "good" one?
  - JKCalhoun 5y ago
    Mission statement: WWJD (I was joking with the comment, but I'm not so sure now.)
    - imilk 5y ago
      What would jeffrey dahmer do?
  - Torwald 5y ago
    Michael Hyatt in his "Vision driven leader" book makes a good distinction between vision an mission, which I think is helpful to you. I recommend you read the book, it is right on your avenue.

andreime 5y ago

I'm not defending Facebook and I just had some thoughts reading the quotes and am curious what you think of them. 1. I remember that while growing up fashion magazines, actors/actresses and I want to say peer pressure (but am fearful its incorrect) were a big source of body image issues. 2. Maybe it's a side effect of our society or "normal" to have security issues while growing up. We've been having good childhoods for how long - 100 years? Maybe there are some feelings that we never had the option of expressing or feeling.

tclancy 5y ago
Magazines came once a month, the people in them were clearly supposed to be uncommonly attractive and they couldn't talk back to you.
karxxm 5y ago
I think these social media platforms give teenagers the feeling, that everyone is pretty and successful. Back in the days, only famous people where in fashion magazines. They where an elite group of people one could easily distinguish from. But nowadays, there are so many "noname" persons out there, having a successful instagram feed. This could create the impression that all people out there are good looking and successful, except yourself.
- Grustaf 5y ago
  Yeah, that's exactly true. It's cargo culting. Super models are beautiful and popular, so if I pay for a photo shoot I am also beautiful and popular seems to be the logic of many "influencers".
- Breza 5y ago
  Very well said, I totally agree
vladvasiliu 5y ago
> 1. I remember that while growing up fashion magazines, actors/actresses and I want to say peer pressure (but am fearful its incorrect) were a big source of body image issues. I remember reading somewhere, can't remember where, something that addressed this point. Broadly speaking, the idea was that "people in magazines" weren't perceived as "peers", so you wouldn't compare yourself to them in the same way as you'd compare with a classmate, or some other "regular person", "just like yourself".

annoyingnoob 5y ago

This is pretty much how something like a JD Power survey works, they find the one thing that you might be number 1 at and promote it - while ignoring anything that could detract. That one thing might be true but it does not change or eliminate other things.

pfortuny 5y ago

"Using social apps to connect with other people can have positive mental-health benefits" That statement cannot be false because it is devoid of any content, being a mere hypothetical. The fact that it is surrounded by "research" is meaningless as well, as the aforementioned sentence is like saying "the elements of the empty set fulfil all properties"... So no, they are not contradicting themselves. They are simply and wantonly misleading people.

jxramos 5y ago
wow this is fascinating, taking the veneer of something in the tautological space and using it as sheep's clothing over something known to be a wolf. There's something curious about this form of misleading that deserves to be identified and named to be called out in future instances.
- dweekly 5y ago
  "Foods containing sugar have been found to save lives in a number of studies." "Regular smoking use is associated with lower BMI, which is shown to correlate with improved heart health and lower mortality rates." "Use of fossil fuels powers a number of ecology-preserving tasks, allowing us to care for the environment in a way we could not without this amazing source of Earth-loving fuel."
  - gerry_shaw 5y ago
    You are far too good at crafting these passages.
    - dgs_sgd 5y ago
      It's fairly easy if you understand the meaning of "can be true". There can be countless instances where it's not true but if you find just _one_ instance where it's true, then your "can be true" statement must be true.
  - pmarreck 5y ago

dont__panic 5y ago

Just like smoking cigarettes can have the positive side-effect of reducing your chance of catching covid!

aerosmile 5y ago

Sorry for hijacking this thread, but whoever posted this information in an internal message board was keen on finding a method to force the company to act on this. Was it the right thing to do? Yes. Was it meant to be leaked? 100%. Running a company in today's environment feels very different than 20 years ago, and to make it clear - it's better for the world this way. Any employee - no matter how low or high ranking - has the ability to erase a significant amount of enterprise value from any business, no matter how large or small. This is driven by improved moral standards, but also extreme connectivity that we have in terms of obtaining information internally (slack, notion, google drive and thousands of other software solutions that have increased everyone's access to documents) and sharing it with the outside world (social media, easy access to journalists, readers' interest in holding companies accountable). I would be surprised if we don't experience some type of a push back from the companies. At the very least, I imagine access to info will be reduced (already happened at Google), and also that we'll increasingly start seeing new ways of how employees are connected with each other (both in terms of policy as well as actual barriers that will prohibit anyone from reaching too many people). I imagine that companies will also start researching new candidates' propensity for activism by analyzing their social media content. For example, if you post "tax the rich!" on Facebook, I imagine that in the not so distant future that will have a negative impact on your market value. If there's one thing that I've learned, it's that every action triggers a reaction (which is time-delayed in the sense that it arrives late and also overshoots the original target), and the constant yo-yoing between those two forces is what explains much of the irrational behavior in the world.

sbierwagen 5y ago
>I would be surprised if we don't experience some type of a push back from the companies. One thing could be to hire fewer people. Oddly large software companies is an evergreen topic on HN. Every middle manager wants to empire-build, but if each new hire is a potential leak, then that could be a brake on Google's relentless goal of hitting 1M employees by 2030: https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106318886-157800431271520200102_google_headcount.png https://image.cnbcfm.com/api/v1/image/106318886-157800431271...
Breza 5y ago

agumonkey 5y ago

1/3, if confirmed, is sadly insane

thewarrior 5y ago

I find it interesting that Instagram promoting celebrity culture has provoked such a backlash but the Chinese governments attempts to tackle the same on their streaming platforms is seen as misguided.

ptr2voidStar 5y ago
How dare you shine a torch on our blindspot!

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]