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Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? Preventing spread to other people is the only plausible reason to force everyone to take it. I a

Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? Preventing spread to other people is the only plausible reason to force everyone to take it. I am comfortable catching the disease and even comfortable dying from it (the numbers are vastly on my side). I do far riskier things on a regular basis (extreme sports) and I do not understand the infantilization of society. Join the feedlot if you want but I will not, I have been doing just fine as my own master, I need not the yoke of protection, certainly not from the feds.

toomuchtodo 5y ago
I think it’s fine if you refuse to be vaccinated as long as you agree to not use hospital resources if you do contract the virus.
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  I would accept that trade. Let's explore this line of reasoning, Mr. Dehumanizer: What about people who engage in risky sex? Should they be refused treatment? What about fat people? What about people who don't exercise?
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    False equivalency. The vaccine costs nothing, has insignificant statistical risk, and people are still refusing it. That bed or ventilator can go to someone responsible. If someone chooses not to be vaccinated, they are choosing to die at home.
    - captainredbeard 5y ago
      "Avoiding risky sex costs nothing, has insignificant statistical risk, and they are refusing it. That medical treatment could go to someone responsible. Choose not to have safe sex, choose to die at home."
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        No one gets an STD at the grocery store or their workplace from close proximity to the infected. Very few people die from STDs (comparatively speaking to COVID) and they are not overloading hospitals.
        captainredbeard 5y ago
        Well, you brought up hospital space availability as the problem, not culpability for spreading it. If we're back to talking about folks spreading it, look at the fact that the vaccine doesn't prevent spread so why are the control freaks in society trying to force this on the rest of us? Sorry, the rest of us are not going along with it just because you think it's a good idea.
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        You are free to make your own choices within the bounds government policy. If that means those who choose not to vaccinate lose their jobs and are ineligible for unemployment insurance, I think that’s reasonable during a public health crisis. Even if vaccination did not reduce transmission rate, it increases survival rate in the event of infection, reducing healthcare system load. If you make a choice to unnecessarily burden a strained system, do not be surprised when that system sheds load in ways you did not expect (crisis standards of care, ie rationing [1] [2] [3]). I am exhausted that people who share your opinion are dragging the pandemic out for whatever illogical reasoning justifies the beliefs and behavior. Your rights end where someone else’s begin, but apparently these people don’t believe their rights end anywhere, regardless of the harm they cause. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/9443799... [2] https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2021-09-07/idaho-activates-crisis-standards-in-north-idaho https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2021-09-07/idaho-... [3] https://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/Articles/ID/2916/Statement-on-hospital-capacity-and-crisis-standards-of-care https://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/Articles/ID/2916/Statement-o...
        5y ago
tfehring 5y ago
I think “prevent” is too imprecise a term here. The vaccines don’t eliminate the risk of spreading the virus to others. They do materially reduce the risk of spreading the virus to others.
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  How much pro-social good is required to force me to take a medical treatment I do not consent to?
  - tfehring 5y ago
    A lot - that’s why I strongly oppose government vaccine mandates except in contexts where the magnitude of that pro-social good is far above the baseline - e.g., for healthcare workers. Thankfully, the “or test” part distinguishes this from a vaccine mandate. We should have been testing most of the population since last March, and if anything we should have stronger testing requirements than this guidance dictates.
  - White_Wolf 5y ago
    I don't think anyone should be forced to take any medicine against their will as long as they are not in a coma or incapacitated and unable to reason. I personally had the vaccine because I have very high blood pressure, have pretty high blood sugar (even though I'm fit/in shape) and am almost 40. It was MY CHOICE in the risk vs reward game of numbers it I did it only for myself with a good life insurance already in place that covers death/incapacity from medication too(covers COVID vaccines too). What if I would of ended up like that BBC presenter? Dead. For me it's down to my family and that is it. This will be a bit exagerated but (hopefully) shold get the point across: At the end of the day anyone else is disposable as long as my family is safe from harm. As long as the vaccine is not 100% safe nobody should be allowed to force anyone else to take it. Edit: One thing that puzzles me though - Why is nobody talking about those that are immune or already have the antibodies and don't need a vaccine? Why force them to have it if those vaccinated are safe?
    - 5y ago
eutropia 5y ago
I'm not sure I understand the principle here of refusing the vaccine (which does reduce spread, though doesn't make it impossible). If your employer paid you to come in early or stay late to get the vaccine -- why refuse?
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  > If your employer paid you to come in early or stay late to get the vaccine -- why refuse? Because I make my own decisions and my willingness to do something is inversely proportional to how hard it is being pushed on me.
  - lalaland1125 5y ago
    I would argue that if you are acting with the sole purpose to oppose other people, you aren't really making your own decisions. Blind opposition is just as silly as blindly following the flow.
    - FpUser 5y ago
      >"Blind opposition is just as silly as blindly following the flow" I think opposition to being pressured regardless of the reasons is quite normal and healthy behavior because in most of the life situations people are being pressured into something that benefits somebody else.
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        An act which benefits someone else isn't necessarily a bad thing, right?
        FpUser 5y ago
        Especially when it is being forced down the throat. Yeah sure.
      - davrosthedalek 5y ago
KingMachiavelli 5y ago
Most likely the vaccine does prevent/reduce spread. Given the amount of skepticism, it's better to just say the truth that the vaccine 'may or may not' prevent the spread rather than pick a side and be proven wrong. It also advantages that people don't think they can avoid COVID as long as everyone else gets the vaccine. You have the option of getting tested weekly as long as your employer allows for that option. Getting a vaccine is probably less invasive and less of an annoyance then many things employers already require.
walleeee 5y ago
If I seriously injured myself (say, in some extreme sport) and needed intensive care in my town right now, I wouldn't get it ICUs are full, people are dying from stupid preventable shit because they couldn't get care, and from acquaintances' anecdotes staff are burning out at a ridiculous pace Would you like to have access to healthcare when you need it? Preventing spread is not the only reason, it also reduces the severity of the illness if you get it, and in any case vaccines do also reduce spread insofar as a vaccinated carrier's viral load is likely to reach a lower maximum for a shorter period of time
antattack 5y ago
Due to it's high transmissibility, pretty much everyone will be exposed to it. When it happens, you'll be in much better shape if you're vaccinated because dying from it is not the only complication. To put it plainly, problem with COVID-19 is that it makes your own immune system damage your body as it scrambles defenses, confused. With vaccine, much less so.
- over_the_raibow 5y ago
  No. You will not. Immunity from getting the virus is better than vaccine aquired immunity
  - antattack 5y ago
    If you're counting on acquiring immunity naturally consider this: 1. You got sick and now you have antibodies but your internal organs, like lungs are scarred. You'd have likely avoided some if not all of that damage if you were vaccinated. 2. Your immune system might be targeting parts of the virus that are less universal across virus' mutations so it gives you less or little immunity against mutants. mRNA vaccine is specifically targeting the spike protein which so far has been unchanged enough for vaccines to be more or less effective against mutations.
dgellow 5y ago
Because the only thing that really matters is that the health system survives. It has never been about individuals. It’s not about you. Vaccines protect from hospitalization, reducing the massive stress forced upon hospitals and health professionals. When a hospital has to deal with a large influx of Covid patients they have to dedicate a lot of their resources (mostly humans), which eventually causes a complete bottleneck: all resources are dedicated to people dying from covid and other patients have to be rejected, lot of them dying. It’s really not something you want in your country or state. See what happened to Italy, India, Brazil, or is currently happening in overseas French territories, it’s a horrible situation to be in.
- BoHerfIIIJrEsq 5y ago
  > Because the only thing that really matters is that the health system survives. It has never been about individuals. This is a confession of the most profound confusion. It's a complete reversal from the truth. We're killing people in order to save hospitals. The real pandemic is simply one of insanity.
probably_wrong 5y ago
> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? (...) I am comfortable catching the disease and even comfortable dying from it Became it's not about you, it's about everyone around you as a group. Those who are "comfortable catching the disease" are taking up a non-insignificant portion of available hospital beds, for instance, keeping health workers at their limit and preventing other people from getting treatment for diseases for which there is no accessible, free vaccine to take. Organizations are expected to do what's best for the majority of those they represent. Sure, some people may not want to wear a helmet all day and would be willing to take the risk. But if one of those people gets impaled and dies it ends up putting a burden in everyone around them, from those picking up the skull pieces and the person's family to the investors.
- unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
  This reasoning also would justify mandatory colonoscopies, or requiring a 3 mile daily run, for 100 million people. Yes, that might reduce the load on the health care system long term (except the colonoscopy & PT departments ...), but historically in the U.S. that would have been viewed as a galactic overreach.
  - Woberto 5y ago
    The load on the system is apparently hugely different. The system has managed to accommodate people with colon cancer and heart disease, so mandating those things hasn't been as pressing from that perspective. Meanwhile, covid has filled up hospitals and ICUs
  - commondream 5y ago
    Your city’s hospitals have run out of beds due to colon cancer? That’s wild.
  - qalmakka 5y ago
    The crucial difference between cardiovascular diseases and severe COVID is that COVID comes in waves. In a very short period of time a large number of people can end up with the virus, thus having a significant chance to develop serious pneumonia. All at the same time, in a very short time span. While lots of people suffer from cardiovascular diseases and cancer every year, they are distributed over the year. You don't usually see thousands of people having strokes in a given area in the span of a week or two, for instance. It's this sudden surge of people needing ventilators and ICU beds that overwhelms the healthcare system of an area, causing repercussions on those that are sick for other reasons or get injured in accidents. For instance, in Italy cancer screenings on vulnerable subjects have been postponed for months, if not a year, due to the ongoing pandemic. Who knows how many people have now a higher risk of cancer due to hospitals and clinics being overwhelmed by COVID patients. COVID vaccines are not sterilizing, but it's getting quite clear that they somewhat reduce the circulation of the virus too by reducing the viral load of symptomatic and asymptomatic carriers. At least they greatly greatly reduce the strain on doctors and avoid disruption of society at large, which is by itself a solid choice for mandating them. The only possible choices here are to a. neglect the virus, with potentially serious social repercussions and loss of human lives, or b. resort to containment measures, which hamper the economy and are deeply unfair towards vaccinated people which objectively risk much less from the virus, or c. mandate vaccination, which is the only choice that avoids lockdowns and (most) deaths. Also, vaccine mandates aren't anything new. That's how rubella, diphtheria, polio, smallpox, mumps, .. have become a thing of the past. They've been put in place on for decades, and no-vax movements have always been small and irrelevant before before social media came with droves of dubious content.
C19is20 5y ago
You'll take up an icu's amount of resources.
- native_samples 5y ago
  That's what health insurance is for. If this was being driven by some sort of rationality, health insurers would just (be allowed to) increase premiums for people who don't take the vaccine. That would force people to properly calculate the true staffing needs imposed by them and pass the costs on to the right people. This type of mandate does the opposite. Probably because, if you look at the actual risks and data from other countries, the difference in sickliness between the vaccinated and unvaccinated is sufficiently small in absolute terms, and the level of staffing at hospitals assuming healthcare workers are not forced out of their jobs sufficiently good, that the relative cost increase wouldn't work as a form of coercion. And it's now all about the coercion, not about health.
impendia 5y ago
I would agree with your argument, if I accepted your hypothetical that the vaccine doesn't prevent spread. However, the vaccine does prevent spread. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...
rkangel 5y ago
I think of it similarly to being required to wear a hard hat if you're in construction. It's not just about whether you're willing to get hit on the head, it's about an employer's duty of care, and (if you just look at it cynically) the disruption to work caused by an incident that could have been prevented if someone took appropriate measures.
matwood 5y ago
> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? Why do you think it doesn't prevent spread? While breakthrough infections make all the news, the vaccine does lessen the chance of catching COVID if exposed. Less people catching COVID, less spread.
paulcole 5y ago
If you’re not scared of dying of the virus, why not just get the vaccine? Surely you’re less scared of a vaccine than dying since the numbers are vastly on your side?
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  Because I am a free man and I make my own decisions. I don't benefit from the vaccine enough to want it of my own volition therefore I don't care how much pressure is placed on me, it comes down to my own math. The virus and vaccine are not a factor.
tyingq 5y ago
>if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread I'm curious about this. I understand "doesn't prevent all spread", but surely it prevents notable amounts of spread by reducing the amount of people walking around with high viral load, reduced hospitalization, herd immunity, and so on.
IgorPartola 5y ago
This is probably the most willfully ignorant and blatantly selfish comment in this discussion. Bravo for this twattastic display.
betterunix2 5y ago
"the vaccine doesn't prevent spread" Citation needed. This contradicts the most recent research and information available, and all one must do is a quick search to turn up dozens of published papers on this topic. The vaccine reduces the transmission of COVID, and that is an important public health goal.
codeyperson 5y ago
It does prevent spread. > I do not understand the infantilization of society. The real infantilization would be catering to people that aren't prepared to do their bit for society. These are the children, that in the face of the evidence, will do ANYTHING to prevent the bruising of their egos.
- landemva 5y ago
  The real infantilization would be catering to people that aren't prepared to do their bit for society by AVOIDING SODA, CEREAL, AND SUGAR SO THEY CAN LOSE 30 POUNDS and walk up a flight of stairs.
notacoward 5y ago
But vaccines do reduce spread. https://archive.is/fCv5F https://archive.is/fCv5F (National Geographic) https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-ri... That's why states with higher vaccination rates are seeing less spread than states with low vaccination rates. https://www.wsj.com/articles/highly-vaccinated-states-keep-worst-covid-19-outcomes-in-check-as-delta-spreads-wsj-analysis-shows-11628328602 https://www.wsj.com/articles/highly-vaccinated-states-keep-w... No, it doesn't absolutely prevent spread, but that's a ridiculous standard (often used to assure a certain rhetorical outcome rather than to shed light on the subject).
- TOMDM 5y ago
  I can't believe we're still arguing this on this forum of all places. The very worst estimates of the vaccines efficacy rate against the Delta variant sit at 30-50% for various measures. People on this forum are ecstatic about improving systems by 2-3% on the regular, and here is a free and easy measure that measurably reduces the mortality rate of yourself and those around you and we are _still_ arguing about it. I used to think much more highly of the quality of discussion on here.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    I agree, participating in this discussion today has been disheartening.
md_ 5y ago
> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? Well, it does reduce spread, right? That said, > Join the feedlot if you want but I will not, I have been doing just fine as my own master, I need not the yoke of protection, certainly not from the feds. One of the other motivations policymakers have in promoting vaccination is that in many places hospital capacity is dangerously reduced due to the influx of covid cases.
landemva 5y ago
Your body and your right to privacy. If you are in decent health, you will likely be OK. I got it this year, and it was rough for a week at home. I got letter from Dr. which states I have the antibodies and have recovered.
quacker 5y ago
> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? "Why must I go the speed limit if it doesn't prevent an accident? Why wear a seat belt if it doesn't prevent injury? Why have airbags if they don't prevent death?" There are no guarantees in life (death and taxes, notwithstanding). The bottom line is that vaccines significantly reduce spread. > I am comfortable catching the disease and even comfortable dying from it (the numbers are vastly on my side) The argument being that you have a slim chance of having a severe reaction to COVID? You have an even slimmer chance of a severe reaction to a vaccine. Why not get vaccinated?

toomuchtodo 5y ago

I think it’s fine if you refuse to be vaccinated as long as you agree to not use hospital resources if you do contract the virus.

captainredbeard 5y ago
I would accept that trade. Let's explore this line of reasoning, Mr. Dehumanizer: What about people who engage in risky sex? Should they be refused treatment? What about fat people? What about people who don't exercise?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  False equivalency. The vaccine costs nothing, has insignificant statistical risk, and people are still refusing it. That bed or ventilator can go to someone responsible. If someone chooses not to be vaccinated, they are choosing to die at home.
  - captainredbeard 5y ago
    "Avoiding risky sex costs nothing, has insignificant statistical risk, and they are refusing it. That medical treatment could go to someone responsible. Choose not to have safe sex, choose to die at home."
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      No one gets an STD at the grocery store or their workplace from close proximity to the infected. Very few people die from STDs (comparatively speaking to COVID) and they are not overloading hospitals.
      - captainredbeard 5y ago
        Well, you brought up hospital space availability as the problem, not culpability for spreading it. If we're back to talking about folks spreading it, look at the fact that the vaccine doesn't prevent spread so why are the control freaks in society trying to force this on the rest of us? Sorry, the rest of us are not going along with it just because you think it's a good idea.
        toomuchtodo 5y ago
        You are free to make your own choices within the bounds government policy. If that means those who choose not to vaccinate lose their jobs and are ineligible for unemployment insurance, I think that’s reasonable during a public health crisis. Even if vaccination did not reduce transmission rate, it increases survival rate in the event of infection, reducing healthcare system load. If you make a choice to unnecessarily burden a strained system, do not be surprised when that system sheds load in ways you did not expect (crisis standards of care, ie rationing [1] [2] [3]). I am exhausted that people who share your opinion are dragging the pandemic out for whatever illogical reasoning justifies the beliefs and behavior. Your rights end where someone else’s begin, but apparently these people don’t believe their rights end anywhere, regardless of the harm they cause. [1] https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/944379919/new-data-reveal-which-hospitals-are-dangerously-full-is-yours https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2020/12/09/9443799... [2] https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2021-09-07/idaho-activates-crisis-standards-in-north-idaho https://www.boisestatepublicradio.org/news/2021-09-07/idaho-... [3] https://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/Articles/ID/2916/Statement-on-hospital-capacity-and-crisis-standards-of-care https://www.doh.wa.gov/Newsroom/Articles/ID/2916/Statement-o...
        5y ago

tfehring 5y ago

I think “prevent” is too imprecise a term here. The vaccines don’t eliminate the risk of spreading the virus to others. They do materially reduce the risk of spreading the virus to others.

captainredbeard 5y ago
How much pro-social good is required to force me to take a medical treatment I do not consent to?
- tfehring 5y ago
  A lot - that’s why I strongly oppose government vaccine mandates except in contexts where the magnitude of that pro-social good is far above the baseline - e.g., for healthcare workers. Thankfully, the “or test” part distinguishes this from a vaccine mandate. We should have been testing most of the population since last March, and if anything we should have stronger testing requirements than this guidance dictates.
- White_Wolf 5y ago
  I don't think anyone should be forced to take any medicine against their will as long as they are not in a coma or incapacitated and unable to reason. I personally had the vaccine because I have very high blood pressure, have pretty high blood sugar (even though I'm fit/in shape) and am almost 40. It was MY CHOICE in the risk vs reward game of numbers it I did it only for myself with a good life insurance already in place that covers death/incapacity from medication too(covers COVID vaccines too). What if I would of ended up like that BBC presenter? Dead. For me it's down to my family and that is it. This will be a bit exagerated but (hopefully) shold get the point across: At the end of the day anyone else is disposable as long as my family is safe from harm. As long as the vaccine is not 100% safe nobody should be allowed to force anyone else to take it. Edit: One thing that puzzles me though - Why is nobody talking about those that are immune or already have the antibodies and don't need a vaccine? Why force them to have it if those vaccinated are safe?
  - 5y ago

eutropia 5y ago

I'm not sure I understand the principle here of refusing the vaccine (which does reduce spread, though doesn't make it impossible). If your employer paid you to come in early or stay late to get the vaccine -- why refuse?

captainredbeard 5y ago
> If your employer paid you to come in early or stay late to get the vaccine -- why refuse? Because I make my own decisions and my willingness to do something is inversely proportional to how hard it is being pushed on me.
- lalaland1125 5y ago
  I would argue that if you are acting with the sole purpose to oppose other people, you aren't really making your own decisions. Blind opposition is just as silly as blindly following the flow.
  - FpUser 5y ago
    >"Blind opposition is just as silly as blindly following the flow" I think opposition to being pressured regardless of the reasons is quite normal and healthy behavior because in most of the life situations people are being pressured into something that benefits somebody else.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      An act which benefits someone else isn't necessarily a bad thing, right?
      - FpUser 5y ago
        Especially when it is being forced down the throat. Yeah sure.
    - davrosthedalek 5y ago

KingMachiavelli 5y ago

Most likely the vaccine does prevent/reduce spread. Given the amount of skepticism, it's better to just say the truth that the vaccine 'may or may not' prevent the spread rather than pick a side and be proven wrong. It also advantages that people don't think they can avoid COVID as long as everyone else gets the vaccine. You have the option of getting tested weekly as long as your employer allows for that option. Getting a vaccine is probably less invasive and less of an annoyance then many things employers already require.

walleeee 5y ago

If I seriously injured myself (say, in some extreme sport) and needed intensive care in my town right now, I wouldn't get it ICUs are full, people are dying from stupid preventable shit because they couldn't get care, and from acquaintances' anecdotes staff are burning out at a ridiculous pace Would you like to have access to healthcare when you need it? Preventing spread is not the only reason, it also reduces the severity of the illness if you get it, and in any case vaccines do also reduce spread insofar as a vaccinated carrier's viral load is likely to reach a lower maximum for a shorter period of time

antattack 5y ago

Due to it's high transmissibility, pretty much everyone will be exposed to it. When it happens, you'll be in much better shape if you're vaccinated because dying from it is not the only complication. To put it plainly, problem with COVID-19 is that it makes your own immune system damage your body as it scrambles defenses, confused. With vaccine, much less so.

over_the_raibow 5y ago
No. You will not. Immunity from getting the virus is better than vaccine aquired immunity
- antattack 5y ago
  If you're counting on acquiring immunity naturally consider this: 1. You got sick and now you have antibodies but your internal organs, like lungs are scarred. You'd have likely avoided some if not all of that damage if you were vaccinated. 2. Your immune system might be targeting parts of the virus that are less universal across virus' mutations so it gives you less or little immunity against mutants. mRNA vaccine is specifically targeting the spike protein which so far has been unchanged enough for vaccines to be more or less effective against mutations.

dgellow 5y ago

Because the only thing that really matters is that the health system survives. It has never been about individuals. It’s not about you. Vaccines protect from hospitalization, reducing the massive stress forced upon hospitals and health professionals. When a hospital has to deal with a large influx of Covid patients they have to dedicate a lot of their resources (mostly humans), which eventually causes a complete bottleneck: all resources are dedicated to people dying from covid and other patients have to be rejected, lot of them dying. It’s really not something you want in your country or state. See what happened to Italy, India, Brazil, or is currently happening in overseas French territories, it’s a horrible situation to be in.

BoHerfIIIJrEsq 5y ago
> Because the only thing that really matters is that the health system survives. It has never been about individuals. This is a confession of the most profound confusion. It's a complete reversal from the truth. We're killing people in order to save hospitals. The real pandemic is simply one of insanity.

probably_wrong 5y ago

> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? (...) I am comfortable catching the disease and even comfortable dying from it Became it's not about you, it's about everyone around you as a group. Those who are "comfortable catching the disease" are taking up a non-insignificant portion of available hospital beds, for instance, keeping health workers at their limit and preventing other people from getting treatment for diseases for which there is no accessible, free vaccine to take. Organizations are expected to do what's best for the majority of those they represent. Sure, some people may not want to wear a helmet all day and would be willing to take the risk. But if one of those people gets impaled and dies it ends up putting a burden in everyone around them, from those picking up the skull pieces and the person's family to the investors.

unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
This reasoning also would justify mandatory colonoscopies, or requiring a 3 mile daily run, for 100 million people. Yes, that might reduce the load on the health care system long term (except the colonoscopy & PT departments ...), but historically in the U.S. that would have been viewed as a galactic overreach.
- Woberto 5y ago
  The load on the system is apparently hugely different. The system has managed to accommodate people with colon cancer and heart disease, so mandating those things hasn't been as pressing from that perspective. Meanwhile, covid has filled up hospitals and ICUs
- commondream 5y ago
  Your city’s hospitals have run out of beds due to colon cancer? That’s wild.
- qalmakka 5y ago
  The crucial difference between cardiovascular diseases and severe COVID is that COVID comes in waves. In a very short period of time a large number of people can end up with the virus, thus having a significant chance to develop serious pneumonia. All at the same time, in a very short time span. While lots of people suffer from cardiovascular diseases and cancer every year, they are distributed over the year. You don't usually see thousands of people having strokes in a given area in the span of a week or two, for instance. It's this sudden surge of people needing ventilators and ICU beds that overwhelms the healthcare system of an area, causing repercussions on those that are sick for other reasons or get injured in accidents. For instance, in Italy cancer screenings on vulnerable subjects have been postponed for months, if not a year, due to the ongoing pandemic. Who knows how many people have now a higher risk of cancer due to hospitals and clinics being overwhelmed by COVID patients. COVID vaccines are not sterilizing, but it's getting quite clear that they somewhat reduce the circulation of the virus too by reducing the viral load of symptomatic and asymptomatic carriers. At least they greatly greatly reduce the strain on doctors and avoid disruption of society at large, which is by itself a solid choice for mandating them. The only possible choices here are to a. neglect the virus, with potentially serious social repercussions and loss of human lives, or b. resort to containment measures, which hamper the economy and are deeply unfair towards vaccinated people which objectively risk much less from the virus, or c. mandate vaccination, which is the only choice that avoids lockdowns and (most) deaths. Also, vaccine mandates aren't anything new. That's how rubella, diphtheria, polio, smallpox, mumps, .. have become a thing of the past. They've been put in place on for decades, and no-vax movements have always been small and irrelevant before before social media came with droves of dubious content.

C19is20 5y ago

You'll take up an icu's amount of resources.

native_samples 5y ago
That's what health insurance is for. If this was being driven by some sort of rationality, health insurers would just (be allowed to) increase premiums for people who don't take the vaccine. That would force people to properly calculate the true staffing needs imposed by them and pass the costs on to the right people. This type of mandate does the opposite. Probably because, if you look at the actual risks and data from other countries, the difference in sickliness between the vaccinated and unvaccinated is sufficiently small in absolute terms, and the level of staffing at hospitals assuming healthcare workers are not forced out of their jobs sufficiently good, that the relative cost increase wouldn't work as a form of coercion. And it's now all about the coercion, not about health.

impendia 5y ago

I would agree with your argument, if I accepted your hypothetical that the vaccine doesn't prevent spread. However, the vaccine does prevent spread. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-briefs/fully-vaccinated-people.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/science/science-br...

rkangel 5y ago

I think of it similarly to being required to wear a hard hat if you're in construction. It's not just about whether you're willing to get hit on the head, it's about an employer's duty of care, and (if you just look at it cynically) the disruption to work caused by an incident that could have been prevented if someone took appropriate measures.

matwood 5y ago

> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? Why do you think it doesn't prevent spread? While breakthrough infections make all the news, the vaccine does lessen the chance of catching COVID if exposed. Less people catching COVID, less spread.

paulcole 5y ago

If you’re not scared of dying of the virus, why not just get the vaccine? Surely you’re less scared of a vaccine than dying since the numbers are vastly on your side?

captainredbeard 5y ago
Because I am a free man and I make my own decisions. I don't benefit from the vaccine enough to want it of my own volition therefore I don't care how much pressure is placed on me, it comes down to my own math. The virus and vaccine are not a factor.

tyingq 5y ago

>if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread I'm curious about this. I understand "doesn't prevent all spread", but surely it prevents notable amounts of spread by reducing the amount of people walking around with high viral load, reduced hospitalization, herd immunity, and so on.

IgorPartola 5y ago

This is probably the most willfully ignorant and blatantly selfish comment in this discussion. Bravo for this twattastic display.

betterunix2 5y ago

"the vaccine doesn't prevent spread" Citation needed. This contradicts the most recent research and information available, and all one must do is a quick search to turn up dozens of published papers on this topic. The vaccine reduces the transmission of COVID, and that is an important public health goal.

codeyperson 5y ago

It does prevent spread. > I do not understand the infantilization of society. The real infantilization would be catering to people that aren't prepared to do their bit for society. These are the children, that in the face of the evidence, will do ANYTHING to prevent the bruising of their egos.

landemva 5y ago
The real infantilization would be catering to people that aren't prepared to do their bit for society by AVOIDING SODA, CEREAL, AND SUGAR SO THEY CAN LOSE 30 POUNDS and walk up a flight of stairs.

notacoward 5y ago

But vaccines do reduce spread. https://archive.is/fCv5F https://archive.is/fCv5F (National Geographic) https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-risks.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/p0607-mrna-reduce-ri... That's why states with higher vaccination rates are seeing less spread than states with low vaccination rates. https://www.wsj.com/articles/highly-vaccinated-states-keep-worst-covid-19-outcomes-in-check-as-delta-spreads-wsj-analysis-shows-11628328602 https://www.wsj.com/articles/highly-vaccinated-states-keep-w... No, it doesn't absolutely prevent spread, but that's a ridiculous standard (often used to assure a certain rhetorical outcome rather than to shed light on the subject).

TOMDM 5y ago
I can't believe we're still arguing this on this forum of all places. The very worst estimates of the vaccines efficacy rate against the Delta variant sit at 30-50% for various measures. People on this forum are ecstatic about improving systems by 2-3% on the regular, and here is a free and easy measure that measurably reduces the mortality rate of yourself and those around you and we are _still_ arguing about it. I used to think much more highly of the quality of discussion on here.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  I agree, participating in this discussion today has been disheartening.

md_ 5y ago

> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? Well, it does reduce spread, right? That said, > Join the feedlot if you want but I will not, I have been doing just fine as my own master, I need not the yoke of protection, certainly not from the feds. One of the other motivations policymakers have in promoting vaccination is that in many places hospital capacity is dangerously reduced due to the influx of covid cases.

landemva 5y ago

Your body and your right to privacy. If you are in decent health, you will likely be OK. I got it this year, and it was rough for a week at home. I got letter from Dr. which states I have the antibodies and have recovered.

quacker 5y ago

> Why must I be vaccinated if the vaccine doesn't prevent spread? "Why must I go the speed limit if it doesn't prevent an accident? Why wear a seat belt if it doesn't prevent injury? Why have airbags if they don't prevent death?" There are no guarantees in life (death and taxes, notwithstanding). The bottom line is that vaccines significantly reduce spread. > I am comfortable catching the disease and even comfortable dying from it (the numbers are vastly on my side) The argument being that you have a slim chance of having a severe reaction to COVID? You have an even slimmer chance of a severe reaction to a vaccine. Why not get vaccinated?