7 ms·

I really wish the US and Europe would get *lls and punish China for breaking the treaty with Hong Kong and the UK

by jmclnx 5y ago

masterof0 5y ago
How? Another war? I'm having a hard time believing the economic elite in the US will be in favor of loosing business in China.
- errantmind 5y ago
  Economic sanctions. Tariffs and the like. War with a nuclear power is not a viable option
  - swayvil 5y ago
    We could always conduct war with trollfarms, propaganda etc. China's unfree speech would actually be a strong asset in such a conflict. Makes you think
- president 5y ago
  It's a good question. Assuming war is the only option on the table: 1. Would Americans be in favor of (relatively) short term destruction in favor of long term prosperity for their children and future generations? 2. Would the US be able to win a conventional war against China? I believe the answer to #1 is no. I don't think anybody knows the answer to #2.
  - boomboomsubban 5y ago
    On 1, let's not pretend that short term destruction necessarily leads to long term prosperity. We've "won" most of our recent wars, long term prosperity was not the result. On 2, there is no conventional war with a nuclear power.
    - CRConrad 5y ago
      > there is no conventional war with a nuclear power. True. But maybe there can be a purely conventional war between two nuclear powers.
      - boomboomsubban 5y ago
        If you want to play Russian roulette, go for it. Please don't force me and billions of others into it.
- brnt 5y ago
  Western countries irrevocably recognizing Taiwan would be a start.
  - ff7c11 5y ago
    Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos.
    - serf 5y ago
      > Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos. until what point? inaction is generally one of the biggest causes of death and suffering in historical warfare.
      - refenestrator 5y ago
        That's really easy to say when it's not you or your kids on the front line. Beyond just Taiwan, the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. Worth considering if you're in favor of more of that in the name of human rights.
        tablespoon 5y ago
        > ...the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. And the alternative might have been "let the Soviets win." That choice would have definitely been a way to avoid war and achieve a kind of "peace."
        refenestrator 5y ago
        What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in like 40 years. Xi is pretty worrying but until he starts doing that, let's not agitate for killing a bunch of people just in case.
- Gray0Ed 5y ago
  Sponsor relocation to US/UK/Taiwan for any HK citizen who wants it? HK will have 0 value to China if every educated person leaves it.
  - stingrae 5y ago
    HK doesn't really have value to China other than making the case to its population that it never stands down or loses. Economically HK isn't that big of a deal compared to the rest of China at this point.
    - hker 5y ago
      If it were true, China would not have delayed its Anti-Sanctions Law in Hong Kong [1]. Hong Kong is huge in supporting the Finance of China. > But the Hong Kong government can only welcome the stock listing opportunity to reinforce Hong Kong as the world’s premier IPO destination, especially at a time when the introduction of the national security law has raised concerns about maintaining the city as a global financial hub. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3145952/why-china-delaying-draft-anti-sanctions-law-hong-kong https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3145952/why-chi...
      - stingrae 5y ago
        At a very simple level you can compare the GDP of PRC=$14.72T vs the GDP of HK=$349.5B from 2020.
        sebmellen 5y ago
        But that is a myopic comparison. The strategic value of Hong Kong’s (semi)-open capital markets is that they act as a conduit between a totalitarian isolationist state and the rest of the world. The US’s capital markets support international trade in a somewhat similar way, and are thus innately valuable even without accounting for the productivity of American workers.
        gscott 5y ago
- Vadoff 5y ago
  Economic sanctions are the best ways to punish a country
onethought 5y ago
Punish them how? The global economy is heavy reliant on a cooperative China. UK have made it clear they aren’t part of the EU so why would the EU care? Just recall the context China are operating from: Hong Kong was stolen from them at the height of the opium wars. There is no fairness in these geopolitical dealings. Overall this sucks for HK… but it’s actually easy to understand all the parties involved actions/inaction… it’s just crap though. :(
- busterarm 5y ago
  Not as reliant as you think. Chinese exports are rapidly becoming too expensive relative to their neighbors and they seem to be unable to further cheapen the price of their labor. Economically, China is actually in a real bind.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    The solution is pretty simple, direct low value labour to the internal economy or phase it out, and trade increasingly in difficult products (or products that difficult at scale, of which there are more than you think) as far as foreign trade. It's a fairly proven strategy, it has good odds of working with an already strong internal market.
- robbedpeter 5y ago
  The China of the opium wars was a completely different entity than Communist China. I don't see that there is any obligation whatsoever to deal with the ccp as if they are the legitimate successors of all things formerly China. They're lying, cheating, and stealing from every entity they deal with on the world stage, blatantly holding themselves above any law, even internally. This doesn't end well unless there's some sort of overwhelming grassroots revolution from the inside. Thanks to Western panopticon tech, that can't happen now, so China's merry band of pirates is headed for Taiwan and global conflict. Thanks, boomers, ya done good.
  - onethought 5y ago
    I wasn't defending their action. Just pointing out that is the context they operate from. Whether it is fact or indoctrination isn't really important. Their action is 100% consistent with that belief. Every country is lying/cheating/stealing... Is there an honest operator out there?
karaterobot 5y ago
Tariffs? We tried a trade war, and it had some economic effect, but no lasting political effect. We probably don't want to get involved in another land war in Asia, if we can avoid it. We could try asking them nicely, but beyond that I feel like it's up to the people of China to decide their own fate.
- sremani 5y ago
  Hongkong dollar is pegged to USD and US has a special treaty with HK w.r.t Financial transactions. US can walk out of the treaty but there are downsides to it. It will happen sooner or later.
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  A land war against China over Hong Kong would be ridiculous. They have the entire country as a base. The western countries would have to fly/sail everything in. Not to mention the legal situation. It's their soil already. It would be an invasion. Against another superpower no less. Really bad idea. And China can hurt the city enough by just turning the water off. It will only hurt the people of Hong Kong more. No, this change won't be driven by the military. It will have to come from within. Probably the most durable way anyway (see how this worked out for Afghanistan). Taiwan would be a totally different thing though. They have been independent for so long and they have no wish to join communist China (which they've never been a part of). And it's much more defensible. I do hope we will stand by them when it comes to it.
  - cabalamat 5y ago
    > A land war against China over Hong Kong would be ridiculous. Indeed. It's a complete non-starter. If the West wants to beat China they must be more subtle and crafty than a direct military invasion: the 2nd Cold War will be mainly fought using diplomacy, trade, economics, technology and spying. Not direct military conflict, apart from maybe a few proxy wars.
  - asdff 5y ago
    Western countries probably wouldn't land any ground forces but instead form a naval blockade all along the china sea and use their air superiority to deindustrialize the country.
sneak 5y ago
I really wish that people would stop ascribing masculine traits, violent warmongering, and inherent virtue into the same bucket.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Oh, man up!
BurningFrog 5y ago
All we can do is open our borders for Hongkongers who want to leave. This is maybe the most highly educated and productive population in the world. Any country would be lucky to get them.
- cabalamat 5y ago
  > All we can do is open our borders for Hongkongers who want to leave. Yes. And no longer trade with China.
- tikwidd 5y ago
  Another thing the US can do (and other countries that criticise China's human rights policies) is set a better example in international affairs. People in the US and US-aligned countries can organise opposition, for example to end the blockade of Cuba, take care of the disadvantaged, and end the illegal wars and terrorism. Meaningful action we can all take, utilising the freedoms and privileges we have to criticise the actions of our governments.
tikwidd 5y ago
If the US or a European state signed a treaty with the UK under the conditions that the UK imposed on China, would you call for the US to be punished for breaking that treaty?
est 5y ago
ok make that 6 demands not one less.
throwaway210222 5y ago
Perhaps Europe is too busy trying to find the balls to punish the US for breaking the JCPOA? I'm sure with a bit of reflection you can see the absolute irony of what you are asking for.

I really wish the US and Europe would get *lls and punish China for breaking the treaty with Hong Kong and the UK

by jmclnx 5y ago

I really wish the US and Europe would get *lls and punish China for breaking the treaty with Hong Kong and the UK

How? Another war? I'm having a hard time believing the economic elite in the US will be in favor of loosing business in China.

errantmind 5y ago
Economic sanctions. Tariffs and the like. War with a nuclear power is not a viable option
- swayvil 5y ago
  We could always conduct war with trollfarms, propaganda etc. China's unfree speech would actually be a strong asset in such a conflict. Makes you think
president 5y ago
It's a good question. Assuming war is the only option on the table: 1. Would Americans be in favor of (relatively) short term destruction in favor of long term prosperity for their children and future generations? 2. Would the US be able to win a conventional war against China? I believe the answer to #1 is no. I don't think anybody knows the answer to #2.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  On 1, let's not pretend that short term destruction necessarily leads to long term prosperity. We've "won" most of our recent wars, long term prosperity was not the result. On 2, there is no conventional war with a nuclear power.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > there is no conventional war with a nuclear power. True. But maybe there can be a purely conventional war between two nuclear powers.
    - boomboomsubban 5y ago
      If you want to play Russian roulette, go for it. Please don't force me and billions of others into it.
brnt 5y ago
Western countries irrevocably recognizing Taiwan would be a start.
- ff7c11 5y ago
  Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos.
  - serf 5y ago
    > Don't do this. People live in Taiwan. It's not fair to use them as pawns. Keep the status quo rather than provoke war and chaos. until what point? inaction is generally one of the biggest causes of death and suffering in historical warfare.
    - refenestrator 5y ago
      That's really easy to say when it's not you or your kids on the front line. Beyond just Taiwan, the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. Worth considering if you're in favor of more of that in the name of human rights.
      - tablespoon 5y ago
        > ...the last cold war kept the third world in a constant state of proxy war between the major powers, costing millions of lives in the short-term and delaying development in the long term. And the alternative might have been "let the Soviets win." That choice would have definitely been a way to avoid war and achieve a kind of "peace."
        refenestrator 5y ago
        What happened when we finally left Vietnam? Absolutely nothing, that's what. Lot fewer people dying from napalm. We had to support one-way helicopter rides under Pinochet and contras gunning down nuns? Or else the soviets win? If it's about national pride and staying on top, fine, but don't tell me it's human rights with that record. The Chinese haven't acted with force outside of what they consider their soil/sea in like 40 years. Xi is pretty worrying but until he starts doing that, let's not agitate for killing a bunch of people just in case.
Gray0Ed 5y ago
Sponsor relocation to US/UK/Taiwan for any HK citizen who wants it? HK will have 0 value to China if every educated person leaves it.
- stingrae 5y ago
  HK doesn't really have value to China other than making the case to its population that it never stands down or loses. Economically HK isn't that big of a deal compared to the rest of China at this point.
  - hker 5y ago
    If it were true, China would not have delayed its Anti-Sanctions Law in Hong Kong [1]. Hong Kong is huge in supporting the Finance of China. > But the Hong Kong government can only welcome the stock listing opportunity to reinforce Hong Kong as the world’s premier IPO destination, especially at a time when the introduction of the national security law has raised concerns about maintaining the city as a global financial hub. [1]: https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3145952/why-china-delaying-draft-anti-sanctions-law-hong-kong https://www.scmp.com/comment/opinion/article/3145952/why-chi...
    - stingrae 5y ago
      At a very simple level you can compare the GDP of PRC=$14.72T vs the GDP of HK=$349.5B from 2020.
      - sebmellen 5y ago
        But that is a myopic comparison. The strategic value of Hong Kong’s (semi)-open capital markets is that they act as a conduit between a totalitarian isolationist state and the rest of the world. The US’s capital markets support international trade in a somewhat similar way, and are thus innately valuable even without accounting for the productivity of American workers.
      - gscott 5y ago
Vadoff 5y ago
Economic sanctions are the best ways to punish a country

onethought 5y ago

Punish them how? The global economy is heavy reliant on a cooperative China. UK have made it clear they aren’t part of the EU so why would the EU care? Just recall the context China are operating from: Hong Kong was stolen from them at the height of the opium wars. There is no fairness in these geopolitical dealings. Overall this sucks for HK… but it’s actually easy to understand all the parties involved actions/inaction… it’s just crap though. :(

busterarm 5y ago
Not as reliant as you think. Chinese exports are rapidly becoming too expensive relative to their neighbors and they seem to be unable to further cheapen the price of their labor. Economically, China is actually in a real bind.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  The solution is pretty simple, direct low value labour to the internal economy or phase it out, and trade increasingly in difficult products (or products that difficult at scale, of which there are more than you think) as far as foreign trade. It's a fairly proven strategy, it has good odds of working with an already strong internal market.
robbedpeter 5y ago
The China of the opium wars was a completely different entity than Communist China. I don't see that there is any obligation whatsoever to deal with the ccp as if they are the legitimate successors of all things formerly China. They're lying, cheating, and stealing from every entity they deal with on the world stage, blatantly holding themselves above any law, even internally. This doesn't end well unless there's some sort of overwhelming grassroots revolution from the inside. Thanks to Western panopticon tech, that can't happen now, so China's merry band of pirates is headed for Taiwan and global conflict. Thanks, boomers, ya done good.
- onethought 5y ago
  I wasn't defending their action. Just pointing out that is the context they operate from. Whether it is fact or indoctrination isn't really important. Their action is 100% consistent with that belief. Every country is lying/cheating/stealing... Is there an honest operator out there?

karaterobot 5y ago

Tariffs? We tried a trade war, and it had some economic effect, but no lasting political effect. We probably don't want to get involved in another land war in Asia, if we can avoid it. We could try asking them nicely, but beyond that I feel like it's up to the people of China to decide their own fate.

sremani 5y ago
Hongkong dollar is pegged to USD and US has a special treaty with HK w.r.t Financial transactions. US can walk out of the treaty but there are downsides to it. It will happen sooner or later.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
A land war against China over Hong Kong would be ridiculous. They have the entire country as a base. The western countries would have to fly/sail everything in. Not to mention the legal situation. It's their soil already. It would be an invasion. Against another superpower no less. Really bad idea. And China can hurt the city enough by just turning the water off. It will only hurt the people of Hong Kong more. No, this change won't be driven by the military. It will have to come from within. Probably the most durable way anyway (see how this worked out for Afghanistan). Taiwan would be a totally different thing though. They have been independent for so long and they have no wish to join communist China (which they've never been a part of). And it's much more defensible. I do hope we will stand by them when it comes to it.
- cabalamat 5y ago
  > A land war against China over Hong Kong would be ridiculous. Indeed. It's a complete non-starter. If the West wants to beat China they must be more subtle and crafty than a direct military invasion: the 2nd Cold War will be mainly fought using diplomacy, trade, economics, technology and spying. Not direct military conflict, apart from maybe a few proxy wars.
- asdff 5y ago
  Western countries probably wouldn't land any ground forces but instead form a naval blockade all along the china sea and use their air superiority to deindustrialize the country.

sneak 5y ago

I really wish that people would stop ascribing masculine traits, violent warmongering, and inherent virtue into the same bucket.

CRConrad 5y ago
Oh, man up!

BurningFrog 5y ago

All we can do is open our borders for Hongkongers who want to leave. This is maybe the most highly educated and productive population in the world. Any country would be lucky to get them.

cabalamat 5y ago
> All we can do is open our borders for Hongkongers who want to leave. Yes. And no longer trade with China.
tikwidd 5y ago
Another thing the US can do (and other countries that criticise China's human rights policies) is set a better example in international affairs. People in the US and US-aligned countries can organise opposition, for example to end the blockade of Cuba, take care of the disadvantaged, and end the illegal wars and terrorism. Meaningful action we can all take, utilising the freedoms and privileges we have to criticise the actions of our governments.

tikwidd 5y ago

If the US or a European state signed a treaty with the UK under the conditions that the UK imposed on China, would you call for the US to be punished for breaking that treaty?

est 5y ago

ok make that 6 demands not one less.

throwaway210222 5y ago

Perhaps Europe is too busy trying to find the balls to punish the US for breaking the JCPOA? I'm sure with a bit of reflection you can see the absolute irony of what you are asking for.