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Natural antibodies + vaccination is basically a win-win for everyone, especially noting that the US is wasting vaccines rather than using them. You don't lose a

Natural antibodies + vaccination is basically a win-win for everyone, especially noting that the US is wasting vaccines rather than using them. You don't lose anything by getting the vaccine and there's a strong upside in resistance (around 10x more resistant than people who are simply vaccinated). Like, between a 100-200$ blood test to prove natural immunity* vs. a free vaccine, it should make sense to get the vaccine. * IMO, honor system should be de-emphasized for people claiming natural immunity. If they want to fight on this hill, they should be able to prove they have that immunity in the first place, otherwise it's simply inconsiderate.

francis-io 5y ago
Why would you risk side effects (which are really low, but do exist) if you already have antibodies? Is argue you do "lose something" if you get a vaccine after having recovered from covid.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  Because we know that natural immunity only lasts 6 months and vaccination immunity lasts like 8 months (for Pfizer at least. Moderna probably a little bit longer, unsure how much longer though). Either way, you need a round to re-up your immune system. A lot of these Delta cases are "breakthroughs", in vaccinated populations... or reinfections (ie: in already infected populations) For example: South Dakota was something like 50% infected + 50% vaccinated (Roughly 75% with some kind of immunity), and SD still had a huge Delta-spike in July/August. It has been shown that the effects of vaccination + naturally getting the virus leads to the strongest immune response. The current levels of vaccination are insufficient to prevent spread (see July/August spike). With the big winter rush coming in just a few months, now is the time to prepare (just like in 2020, the virus seemed to have retreated between September and November. But come December, I expect it to come roaring back unless we up our collective immunities).
  - AuryGlenz 5y ago
    Natural immunity doesn’t only last 6 months. Where did you get that? I’m coming out of my second COVID infection now. Long story short, I was in the local hospital and the fact that this was my second infection caused a really big hubbub in the COVID ward and a nurse told me I was the first reinfection she has seen.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      > Natural immunity doesn’t only last 6 months. Where did you get that? https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/delta-raises-covid-reinfection-risk-by-46-study https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/delta-raises-covid... You got 180 days before natural immunity wanes and Delta poses a risk of reinfection.
      - rajin444 5y ago
        That's looking at relative risk not overall. It's not saying you lose immunity after 180 days.
        dragontamer 5y ago
        Natural immunity wanes enough to cause a "2nd surge" in cities that were 75%ish infected, such as Araraquara city, Brazil, and Manaus, Brazil. I can agree with you that the 180-days thing is just an estimate from one study. Further studies are needed to narrow down the exact time when natural immunity wanes. But its a good "first guess" at the phenomenon, and should be within a magnitude of the truth. From what we've seen around the world, COVID19 (or at least its variants, like Gamma/P.1 or Delta/B.1.617) is more than willing to reinfect populations in less than a year.
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        The Manaus study used a convenience sample, meaning that you cannot infer population rates from it. Who would have thought that reading the abstract of a paper could be a super power?
    - 5y ago
  - hunterb123 5y ago
    That's incorrect, natural immunity will last many years. Your antibody levels do go down but your body remembers how to make more. Vaccine immunity does seem to need booster shots.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      P.1 (aka Gamma) and B.1.617.2 (aka Delta) have already been proven to reinfect those previously infected by COVID19 at alarming rates 180-days after they've recovered. Look: this shouldn't be a surprise. Your body only has 6 months of natural immunity to the flu. Some viruses (Flu, COVID19, etc. etc.) just don't have long-lasting immunity from. We all were hoping for the best, but the numbers are in and they're not very good for natural immunity.
      - hunterb123 5y ago
        The Flu isn't one strain. It's many highly mutative strains, kinda different from the handful of stable strains of covid. That is all FUD. Natural immunity does fine, just like the vaccine you may be reinfected but the effects will be severely diminished. Look, this shouldn't be a surprise. Evolution is a bit better at this stuff than man, it's been doing it longer. I'm all for people taking boosters if they want to for some reason, but don't push false information.
        dragontamer 5y ago
        > That is all FUD. Natural immunity does fine, just like the vaccine you may be reinfected but the effects will be severely diminished. Why did Manaus, Brazil run out of hospital space in a 2nd surge? Despite initial infection rates of ~75%ish ? Why was this effect then replicated in a 2nd Brazilian city of Araraquara city by a different research team? (Aka: a "2nd wave" of COVID19, despite a highly infected population?)
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Either mismanagement or false reporting / fear mongering which runs rampant in covid times. I don't know how you think that translates to poor natural immunity. You would need to know the % of patients with covid of the ICUs that are overrun, whether they were previously infected, etc.
  - francis-io 5y ago
    It's my understanding we only measure antibodies, which hang around after an infection for a while. We still have "the pattern" to create more once our immune system learns how to beat something.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      No. There are substantial studies on the reinfection rates of P.1 (aka Gamma) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909850/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909850/ https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(21)00183-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(21)00183-5/full... B.1.617.2 (aka Delta) also has shown properties showing that it evades natural immunity after 180-days, similar to P.1 / Gamma. The "antibody measurement" studies are trying to narrow down the exact time that our immunity wanes. But it is a well-proven fact that natural immunity lasts less than a year, given what we've seen in Araraquara, Brazil and Manaus, Brazil. It seems to be ~180 days, subject to more tests. So that's the number I'm going to assume until I see a better study.
giantg2 5y ago
"Like, between a 100-200$ blood test to prove natural immunity* vs. a free vaccine, it should make sense to get the vaccine." The antibody test is about $45 from places like Labcorp. The vaccine is $40 per dose (so $80 total for most), with the government picking up the tab. Yes, vaccination plus infection provides more antibodies. I'm not sure that it is correct to quantify that as "10x more resistance" as we would need to know where the threshold for resistance lies and all the factors involved (they don't know the min effective level of antibodies, and they are seeing protection in individuals before the antibodies are being produced). "You don't lose anything by getting the vaccine..." There are some people with valid concerns about the possiblity of autoimmune antibodies, which in theory, could be substantially higher if having already been infected. Sadly, I haven't been able to find any real research into this one way or the other. "... they should be able to prove they have that immunity in the first place, ..." Yes, other governments such as Isreal are issuing green passes for those confirmed to have recovered. I don't believe they are doing antibody testing, but we aren't testing vaccine recipients for antibodies either.
nradov 5y ago
Your numbers are incorrect. Vaccination appears to boost immunity after infection by a factor of 2×, not 10×. The duration of additional resistance is unclear. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...

francis-io 5y ago

Why would you risk side effects (which are really low, but do exist) if you already have antibodies? Is argue you do "lose something" if you get a vaccine after having recovered from covid.

dragontamer 5y ago
Because we know that natural immunity only lasts 6 months and vaccination immunity lasts like 8 months (for Pfizer at least. Moderna probably a little bit longer, unsure how much longer though). Either way, you need a round to re-up your immune system. A lot of these Delta cases are "breakthroughs", in vaccinated populations... or reinfections (ie: in already infected populations) For example: South Dakota was something like 50% infected + 50% vaccinated (Roughly 75% with some kind of immunity), and SD still had a huge Delta-spike in July/August. It has been shown that the effects of vaccination + naturally getting the virus leads to the strongest immune response. The current levels of vaccination are insufficient to prevent spread (see July/August spike). With the big winter rush coming in just a few months, now is the time to prepare (just like in 2020, the virus seemed to have retreated between September and November. But come December, I expect it to come roaring back unless we up our collective immunities).
- AuryGlenz 5y ago
  Natural immunity doesn’t only last 6 months. Where did you get that? I’m coming out of my second COVID infection now. Long story short, I was in the local hospital and the fact that this was my second infection caused a really big hubbub in the COVID ward and a nurse told me I was the first reinfection she has seen.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    > Natural immunity doesn’t only last 6 months. Where did you get that? https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/delta-raises-covid-reinfection-risk-by-46-study https://www1.racgp.org.au/newsgp/clinical/delta-raises-covid... You got 180 days before natural immunity wanes and Delta poses a risk of reinfection.
    - rajin444 5y ago
      That's looking at relative risk not overall. It's not saying you lose immunity after 180 days.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        Natural immunity wanes enough to cause a "2nd surge" in cities that were 75%ish infected, such as Araraquara city, Brazil, and Manaus, Brazil. I can agree with you that the 180-days thing is just an estimate from one study. Further studies are needed to narrow down the exact time when natural immunity wanes. But its a good "first guess" at the phenomenon, and should be within a magnitude of the truth. From what we've seen around the world, COVID19 (or at least its variants, like Gamma/P.1 or Delta/B.1.617) is more than willing to reinfect populations in less than a year.
        disgruntledphd2 5y ago
        The Manaus study used a convenience sample, meaning that you cannot infer population rates from it. Who would have thought that reading the abstract of a paper could be a super power?
  - 5y ago
- hunterb123 5y ago
  That's incorrect, natural immunity will last many years. Your antibody levels do go down but your body remembers how to make more. Vaccine immunity does seem to need booster shots.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    P.1 (aka Gamma) and B.1.617.2 (aka Delta) have already been proven to reinfect those previously infected by COVID19 at alarming rates 180-days after they've recovered. Look: this shouldn't be a surprise. Your body only has 6 months of natural immunity to the flu. Some viruses (Flu, COVID19, etc. etc.) just don't have long-lasting immunity from. We all were hoping for the best, but the numbers are in and they're not very good for natural immunity.
    - hunterb123 5y ago
      The Flu isn't one strain. It's many highly mutative strains, kinda different from the handful of stable strains of covid. That is all FUD. Natural immunity does fine, just like the vaccine you may be reinfected but the effects will be severely diminished. Look, this shouldn't be a surprise. Evolution is a bit better at this stuff than man, it's been doing it longer. I'm all for people taking boosters if they want to for some reason, but don't push false information.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        > That is all FUD. Natural immunity does fine, just like the vaccine you may be reinfected but the effects will be severely diminished. Why did Manaus, Brazil run out of hospital space in a 2nd surge? Despite initial infection rates of ~75%ish ? Why was this effect then replicated in a 2nd Brazilian city of Araraquara city by a different research team? (Aka: a "2nd wave" of COVID19, despite a highly infected population?)
        hunterb123 5y ago
        Either mismanagement or false reporting / fear mongering which runs rampant in covid times. I don't know how you think that translates to poor natural immunity. You would need to know the % of patients with covid of the ICUs that are overrun, whether they were previously infected, etc.
- francis-io 5y ago
  It's my understanding we only measure antibodies, which hang around after an infection for a while. We still have "the pattern" to create more once our immune system learns how to beat something.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    No. There are substantial studies on the reinfection rates of P.1 (aka Gamma) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909850/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33909850/ https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(21)00183-5/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/article/S0140-6736(21)00183-5/full... B.1.617.2 (aka Delta) also has shown properties showing that it evades natural immunity after 180-days, similar to P.1 / Gamma. The "antibody measurement" studies are trying to narrow down the exact time that our immunity wanes. But it is a well-proven fact that natural immunity lasts less than a year, given what we've seen in Araraquara, Brazil and Manaus, Brazil. It seems to be ~180 days, subject to more tests. So that's the number I'm going to assume until I see a better study.

giantg2 5y ago

"Like, between a 100-200$ blood test to prove natural immunity* vs. a free vaccine, it should make sense to get the vaccine." The antibody test is about $45 from places like Labcorp. The vaccine is $40 per dose (so $80 total for most), with the government picking up the tab. Yes, vaccination plus infection provides more antibodies. I'm not sure that it is correct to quantify that as "10x more resistance" as we would need to know where the threshold for resistance lies and all the factors involved (they don't know the min effective level of antibodies, and they are seeing protection in individuals before the antibodies are being produced). "You don't lose anything by getting the vaccine..." There are some people with valid concerns about the possiblity of autoimmune antibodies, which in theory, could be substantially higher if having already been infected. Sadly, I haven't been able to find any real research into this one way or the other. "... they should be able to prove they have that immunity in the first place, ..." Yes, other governments such as Isreal are issuing green passes for those confirmed to have recovered. I don't believe they are doing antibody testing, but we aren't testing vaccine recipients for antibodies either.

nradov 5y ago

Your numbers are incorrect. Vaccination appears to boost immunity after infection by a factor of 2×, not 10×. The duration of additional resistance is unclear. https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-protection.html https://www.cdc.gov/media/releases/2021/s0806-vaccination-pr...