10 ms·

The comments here are disheartening. I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things? Also

by belval 5y ago

The comments here are disheartening. I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things? Also for those complaining about the 40hrs/week then you have part-time school on top: this is actually something that a lot of people do. My engineering university is somewhat known for this in Canada, you have classes at 6PM every day of the week + on Saturday. It is absolutely exhausting but everyone in my class that was in that particular situation was more than happy to have the opportunity to do it even if they were +30 years old. At the end of the program they get to be in a much better financial situation and guarantee a better future for their family.

Mizza 5y ago
"Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good.” - Oscar Wilde Just as America has the bizarre situation of healthcare being tied to employment, we may end up in the same situation for education, where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service.
- gruez 5y ago
  >where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon But that's literally not what's happening? >Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years.
  - Mizza 5y ago
    Yeah, but you'd be given room and board rather than a wage. It's indentured servitude with extra steps.
    - gruez 5y ago
      Is all employment "indentured servitude with extra step" since the wages from your employment is used to pay for "room and board"?
      - Mizza 5y ago
        Heyy, would you look at that! Now we're getting somewhere.
      - sangnoir 5y ago
        I'd argue if you don't have any money left over after paying food and board (and need food stamps), it's functionally the same as indentured servitude. So, not all employment is like this; but only those jobs that do not pay a living wage.
        gruez 5y ago
        The difference is that you can't decide to fuck off (eg. go backpacking or live with your parents) whenever you feel like it if you're an indentured servant. Furthermore, "food and board" is an imperfect metric, because even though it may seem essential, it has a lot of discretionary components built in. For instance, buying organic or ordering takeout for "food", or getting a luxury condo or a nice school district for "housing". I'm not saying everyone working on amazon living paycheck to paycheck is because they ordered ubereats every night and live in a luxury condo, but it's something to keep in mind when we're narrowing down what exactly "indentured servitude with extra steps" means.
        sangnoir 5y ago
        > The difference is that you can't decide to fuck off (eg. go backpacking or live with your parents) whenever you feel like it if you're an indentured servant. Do you honestly think people willingly work at McJobs that still require them to live on food stamps when they have better options available to them, like living with their parents?! Amazon's warehouse workers are not buying organic takeout or getting luxury condominiums, they are buying the cheapest (unhealthy) food and living in the cheapest parts of town. What you asking to keep in mind sounds a lot like a rehash of Reagan's incorrect "welfare queen" characterization from the 70's. Or more recently: "Why do poor people need a smartphone for?"
- plandis 5y ago
  This seems like an odd conclusion given how easy it is to get loans even if you are not the strongest academically.
- umvi 5y ago
  > Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves ... the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good Exactly, most people don't get this. This is exactly why I am vicious, cruel, and unkind to the employees of my small business - it seems counter intuitive, but I'm actually doing them the least harm this way, and so I'm actually optimizing for their long term happiness. They should be thanking me. /logic
  - Spivak 5y ago
    I mean it’s cute quip but this isn’t what that quote means and you know that. [From the perspective of someone trying to abolish slavery] kind slavers are the worst because they make the situation just tolerable enough that people aren’t motivated to change the system. [From the perspective of an individual slave] kind slavers are the best because they suffer the least. Kind slavers force a system settle on a local minimum of suffering rather than a global one.
    - umvi 5y ago
      > [From the perspective of someone trying to abolish slavery] kind slavers are the worst because they make the situation just tolerable enough that people aren’t motivated to change the system. Who says kind slavers weren't also helping to change the system? It's a pretty big assumption that all kind slavers were only being kind to keep their slaves from being uppity. Re: George Washington
      - Mizza 5y ago
        Wow.
      - ysavir 5y ago
        I think the assumption is that if kind slave owner wanted to help change the system, they would probably start by freeing their own slaves.
        bzbarsky 5y ago
- silentsea90 5y ago
  Amazon didn't cause education to get expensive. They at least provide some respite.
- glenstein 5y ago
  A brilliant and helpful quote. Reminds me of the King quote about white moderates. It's a bit different, but what they have in common is emphasizing that when you "do good" on top of a foundation of fundamental injustice you do the most damage. Because you appeal to the most reachable minds (and therefore the most needed as supporters, the most precious resource) and implore them to support the status quo instead of helping.
  - refenestrator 5y ago
    It's do-nothing bullshit. Do good on top a foundation of fundamental injustice? I'm sorry, do you have any other foundations laying around? I surveyed 5000 years of written history and couldn't find any. The options are try to do some good or don't.
    - glenstein 5y ago
      >It's do-nothing bullshit. Thank you for your opinion on the life and work of Dr. King.
      - refenestrator 5y ago
        Wasn't a King quote I was repudiating. He never said "you shouldn't try to do good on a foundation of injustice", because he wasn't an idiot.
        glenstein 5y ago
        You're wasting both my time and yours interpreting my comments in some of the most foaming-at-the-mouth bad faith I've ever encountered on hacker news. King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail really was critical of white moderates for reasons I described, despite your furious protestations to the contrary.
  - wallacoloo 5y ago
    Is there any path to a perfect world system within one lifetime? I’d be extremely skeptical. If you agree there isn’t, then no matter what the world looks like during our lifetime, it will be imperfect. It will be the wrong system. The problem with views like the ones being expressed in this thread is that they suggest at every moment that the thing we need is revolution. That there is no way to advance an imperfect system by doing good. And after any revolution, you’ll still be left with an imperfect foundation, so you’re still forbidden from doing good, and you need another revolution. It is insightful, pointing out where good intentions cause an imperfect status quo to perpetuate longer than it otherwise would. But the status quo will always be imperfect, so we must find ways of advancing it that don’t force everyone through a lower point in order to reach the next maxima (which is sorta what you do when you encourage all those with good intentions to stand down). Not that I’m saying all revolutions past weren’t valid. When you lose the freedom of movement that allows people to seek out higher maxima, then the only way forward actually is revolution.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  We already kinda do with the military; no other options for high paying work? Join the military for a few years, let them pay for school if you survive. But, Oscar Wilde's quote here is partially right at the societal level, and absolutely wrong on the individual level. Both can be true. Amazon isn't to be lauded as a company for something that is, ultimately, a competitive advantage, in a landscape they don't seek to change, but the change itself can be lauded as a good one in that it's something they can control
- newbamboo 5y ago
  But encouraging workers to pursue education, may potentially free them from servitude, to Amazon at least. If you want a company to reform itself you need to stand ready to praise the steps they take toward reform.
- gfodor 5y ago
  You're conflating "being kind" with "empowering" and it causes your point to collapse onto itself like a black hole. An education is a means to escape slavery or indentured servitude, so comparing it to the kindness of some plantation owners is ridiculous.
- spoonfeeder006 5y ago
  But what if every company offered free upskilling services to their employees, then that might help free people from this And so maybe one company doing it can lead to other companies doing it more? Although this is covid related...so not sure it really applies
- jdavis703 5y ago
  > becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service. We already have a public education system, and any employee working at Amazon or Starbucks for minimum wage should qualify for Pell Grants that would make community college free anyways.
- Aunche 5y ago
  I agree that this is setting a precedent for perverse incentives to manifest, but I don't see how Amazon is to blame here. The government is failing to provide higher education to those who can benefit from it. Given this void, the free market inevitably would come with a solution of its own, even if it's suboptimal.
- elif 5y ago
  Precisely. This fukuyama dream of corporate liberalism paints exactly such a picture: that the tax evading Monopoly which has subsumed a significant portion of US capital (stripped from the common man) can be seen as beneficent for merely satisfying their own need for skilled labor in an economic context they helped foment wherein education has been made unreachable by normal means.
- belval 5y ago
  Comparing Amazon's fulfillment center's condition to actual slavery on a thread about them offering free tuition to their worker might be the most out of touch HN reply I have seen in a while. You do understand that these people, regardless of your opinion on how the government should handle education at a state and federal level, will actually benefit from this move? It's not some kind of dystopian agreement, usually the employer pays for your education and you must stay there for ~2 years or reimburse what the employer paid. That's it, you can leave, you can go work anywhere.
  - createunderrate 5y ago
    > Comparing Amazon's fulfillment center's condition to actual slavery on a thread about them offering free tuition to their worker might be the most out of touch HN reply I have seen in a while. https://imgur.com/a/BqPzT https://imgur.com/a/BqPzT
    - belval 5y ago
      I understand what you are hinting at, but it's not just the quote, the commenter I replied to wrote: > we may end up in the same situation for education, where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service. Where "indentured servitudes" means "a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years". Yes there is a difference with actual slavery, but this is still very much the parallel he was drawing. Ergo I feel very comfortable saying that this is a very out-of-touch comparison.
- hodgesrm 5y ago
  > ...we may end up in the same situation for education, where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service. I'm amazed at this criticism. College is and was difficult for many people to handle because it's expensive. It's not lack of will or ability to find time. I got my bachelor's degree while I was serving in the US Air Force at 40 hours plus per week. Yeah, it was a bit of a grunt. But I got the degree. I'm still grateful for their help in funding tuition as well as the flexibility to attend evening classes. I think most people in that situation would feel the same.
- arcturus17 5y ago
  I love Oscar Wilde to bits and regard him as one of the wittiest writers to live, but he was more of a satirist than political commentator, and at any rate, that quote is utter bollocks.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Exactly the comment I was thinking about. The price of education in the US is quite high and with programs like this you cement this circumstance while penalizing everyone not working for Amazon since universities will ensure the educational product you receive aligns with requirements of Amazon and form students in accordance to that. This is just capturing the offspring, not too different from other strategies to get control of the market.
bogwog 5y ago
> The comments here are disheartening. I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things? Because the benefit of the doubt is for people/companies who haven't repeatedly (some might even say enthusiastically) shown that they don't deserve it. At this point, it's always safe to assume ulterior motives anytime Amazon does something that seems good.
- NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
  Even accepting that, why go on to assume that it's a zero-sum game between Amazon and the employee? Why can't be what's good value for Amazon also be good value for the employee?
- gruez 5y ago
  >At this point, it's always safe to assume ulterior motives anytime Amazon does something that seems good. It's a self-reinforcing cycle amazon is bad -> therefore when amazon does something good, it's bad -> amazon is bad -> ...
- krapp 5y ago
  >At this point, it's always safe to assume ulterior motives anytime Amazon does something that seems good. I assume, in this case, there are tax benefits and that Amazon gets a cut of revenue.
  - decebalus1 5y ago
    You assume correctly https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/furthering-your-employees-education-is-good-for-business https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/furthering-... "As the employer, you may deduct the entire amount that you pay for the employee's educational costs as a business expense. However, only $5,250 is not considered wages and therefore, not subject to payroll taxes. Amounts over the annual limit are subject to income and payroll taxes."
- BeetleB 5y ago
  When I read this, I always think of Congressman Floyd Spence: The American reaction to a Russian SALT treaty during the Cold War is one well-known example of naïve cynicism in history. Political leaders negotiating on behalf of the United States discredited the offer simply because it was proposed by the Russian side.[1][9] Former U.S. congressman Floyd Spence indicates the use of naïve cynicism in this quote: "I have had a philosophy for some time in regard to SALT, and it goes like this: the Russians will not accept a SALT treaty that is not in their best interest, and it seems to me that if it is their best interests, it can‘t be in our best interest." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_cynicism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_cynicism
arrosenberg 5y ago
" I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things?" I think we have touched the hot stove enough times to know that corporations don't act altruistically. If they do something "nice" it's because it benefits them.
- Agent766 5y ago
  It's possible for situations to be mutually beneficial which looks to be the case here.
- antasvara 5y ago
  Does it matter if it benefits them if it also benefits the workers? Sure, it probably benefits Amazon. And honestly, it may be keeping more radical changes from happening. However, it's still an improvement over how things were going. Let's accept that this is a positive step, while still recognizing that Amazon still has a lot of work left to do.
  - fwip 5y ago
    I think one reason that people hate it, is that "a positive step" does nothing to further radical solutions, and in many cases, harms it. To use a computer analogy, it's like: the problem is SQL injection. The "positive step" is disallowing special characters in user names. The radical solution is parameterized queries. Adding in shitty character sanitization technically makes the situation better, but the bandaid-solution might make management less likely to sign off on fixing the actual problem. (Note: radical in this sense basically means "addressing the root of the problem, transformative, fundamental" and not "fringe ideology," because everybody knows you should use parameterized queries.).
    - JakeTheAndroid 5y ago
      But what part does Amazon have to play in radical change here? Is the radical change that Amazon should help push for free college federally? Like what specifically is the radical change being blocked by a private company paying for its employees college? We could sit here and create hypotheticals but unless there is something directly actionable, what more can we expect? This might be a bandaid but this issue existed before Amazon, it's not created by Amazon. And many other companies have done this before Amazon. If the issue is the cost of education, there are so many factors causing that how can we expect a single private company to lead that change? So what is the actual proposed solution that Amazon is making less viable through this change, and how could Amazon have enabled that radical change better? And once we derive what that action could have been, we have to evaluate the value it has to Amazon because at the end of the day they are operating a business not a social justice non-profit.
fredliu 5y ago
Agree, wondering if we swap Amazon with some other no name company, would the responses be the same?
- shashwatak 5y ago
  Obviously it would be different… context matters.
  - q1w2 5y ago
    By "context" do you mean your personal bias?
    - mrguyorama 5y ago
      Different companies being shitty in different ways is not "bias"
AndrewUnmuted 5y ago
I remember when Amazon said they'd pay my college tuition back around ~2012 to pursue my graduate degree. Turns out, there are a lot of strings attached. Who'da thunk it?
Taylor_OD 5y ago
> I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things? I don't think you get it. If someone took a big shit on my lawn every morning and refused to stop or clean it up but I found out they were paying for some kids college I'd still their they were a giant asshole. Amazon is doing far worse in the world than shitting on my lawn and isnt doing this out of the goodness of their heart. They are doing it for good pr and because its hard to hire workers like these long term without dangling long term benefits over their heads.
- gruez 5y ago
  >I don't think you get it. If someone took a big shit on my lawn every morning and refused to stop or clean it up but I found out they were paying for some kids college I'd still their they were a giant asshole. But many people here aren't simply expressing their discontent at amazon in general, they're expressing their discontent at amazon for doing this specific action. You can think amazon is doing a good thing here, but still think that amazon is a bad company. Thinking "amazon is a bad company therefore everything they do is bad" is the wrong attitude to have here.
  - nicoffeine 5y ago
    Yes, because instead of just paying higher wages and letting individuals decide what they'd like to spend their money on, they have this PR stunt. Amazon gets some free marketing, another tax write off, and they can use this as evidence that workers don't need protection from their constant scheming. They can continue to exploit their workforce to the maximum extent of the law while they lobby to get more worker rights removed because their workers can potentially jump through a few dozen hoops and get a college degree. Amazon will absolutely use this empty posturing to try and cover up their dismal labor record. "Why should our workers be allowed to take bathroom breaks or even think about forming a union? We gave them free college*!" *Some conditions apply
    - macinjosh 5y ago
      What, specifically, should Amazon do to make you truly happy with them? How much pay is enough? How many benefits are enough? I am genuinely curious.
commandlinefan 5y ago
> 40hrs/week then you have part-time school on top: this is actually something that a lot of people do I did my master's degree this way and actually did better than when I was an undergraduate with no other responsibilities.
- dudeman13 5y ago
  Ah, but did you do better because of that condition? I was a way better undergrad student at year 4 than at year 1 (normally it takes 5 years to complete a BSc where I'm from).
  - commandlinefan 5y ago
    Maybe so!
tenaciousDaniel 5y ago
Disheartening for sure. I'm not sure if this is something that's particular to STEM fields, but there seems to be a far-too-large subset of people who think they're too smart for optimism. Like they've lost the ability to distinguish between pointed, constructive criticism and staunch, irrational negativity. I'm deeply sick of it.
guyzero 5y ago
Yes, while it is true that Jeffery Epstein had a rape island, he also gave a lot of money to charity! Can't people just be happy when good things happen?
Berobero 5y ago
Some people, in an otherwise disadvantaged situation, will benefit from this; that is completely fine in isolation. Still, it's wholly naive to assume that Amazon is doing this out of some sense of looking to do a "nice thing". Most obviously, it is clear that this is being pushed as a pathway to IT education. Amazon, as a business, has massive vested interests in, one, increasing the size of the IT labor force, and two, promoting buy-in to its own IT infrastructure. It is irrational to not initially assume that this initiative is being conducted primarily to pursue such interests. My criteria for being "happy" with the actions of a corporation like Amazon hinge on them doing something utterly unimaginable: going against the interests of their shareholders for the ultimate benefit of society at large. If, for instance, Amazon starts advocating for meaningful and equitable worker representation in business decisions that affect said workers, I'll be "happy".
philocatterham 5y ago
Should this include a disclosure note that you work for Amazon?
fossuser 5y ago
When something has achieved some threshold of 'political-ness' online discussion defaults to being tribal crap. There's sometimes still some interesting discussion buried in comments somewhere, but you can almost predict the entirety of threads on these kinds of topics without reading it. GPT-3 could probably generate HN comments for these topics and be pretty convincing.
Communitivity 5y ago
I think this is caused by a cognitive bias. The more positive things about company X we hear that matter to us, the more we view anything they do in a positive light and the less weight we give to anything that counteracts that belief. Conversely, the more negative things about company X we hear that matter to us, the more we view anything they do in a negative light and the less weight we give to anything that counteracts that belief. Once a trend starts, it gets harder and harder to change people's minds.

by belval 5y ago

Mizza 5y ago

"Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves, and so prevented the horror of the system being realised by those who suffered from it, and understood by those who contemplated it, so, in the present state of things in England, the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good.” - Oscar Wilde Just as America has the bizarre situation of healthcare being tied to employment, we may end up in the same situation for education, where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service.

gruez 5y ago
>where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon But that's literally not what's happening? >Indentured servitude is a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years.
- Mizza 5y ago
  Yeah, but you'd be given room and board rather than a wage. It's indentured servitude with extra steps.
  - gruez 5y ago
    Is all employment "indentured servitude with extra step" since the wages from your employment is used to pay for "room and board"?
    - Mizza 5y ago
      Heyy, would you look at that! Now we're getting somewhere.
    - sangnoir 5y ago
      I'd argue if you don't have any money left over after paying food and board (and need food stamps), it's functionally the same as indentured servitude. So, not all employment is like this; but only those jobs that do not pay a living wage.
      - gruez 5y ago
        The difference is that you can't decide to fuck off (eg. go backpacking or live with your parents) whenever you feel like it if you're an indentured servant. Furthermore, "food and board" is an imperfect metric, because even though it may seem essential, it has a lot of discretionary components built in. For instance, buying organic or ordering takeout for "food", or getting a luxury condo or a nice school district for "housing". I'm not saying everyone working on amazon living paycheck to paycheck is because they ordered ubereats every night and live in a luxury condo, but it's something to keep in mind when we're narrowing down what exactly "indentured servitude with extra steps" means.
        sangnoir 5y ago
        > The difference is that you can't decide to fuck off (eg. go backpacking or live with your parents) whenever you feel like it if you're an indentured servant. Do you honestly think people willingly work at McJobs that still require them to live on food stamps when they have better options available to them, like living with their parents?! Amazon's warehouse workers are not buying organic takeout or getting luxury condominiums, they are buying the cheapest (unhealthy) food and living in the cheapest parts of town. What you asking to keep in mind sounds a lot like a rehash of Reagan's incorrect "welfare queen" characterization from the 70's. Or more recently: "Why do poor people need a smartphone for?"
plandis 5y ago
This seems like an odd conclusion given how easy it is to get loans even if you are not the strongest academically.
umvi 5y ago
> Just as the worst slave-owners were those who were kind to their slaves ... the people who do most harm are the people who try to do most good Exactly, most people don't get this. This is exactly why I am vicious, cruel, and unkind to the employees of my small business - it seems counter intuitive, but I'm actually doing them the least harm this way, and so I'm actually optimizing for their long term happiness. They should be thanking me. /logic
- Spivak 5y ago
  I mean it’s cute quip but this isn’t what that quote means and you know that. [From the perspective of someone trying to abolish slavery] kind slavers are the worst because they make the situation just tolerable enough that people aren’t motivated to change the system. [From the perspective of an individual slave] kind slavers are the best because they suffer the least. Kind slavers force a system settle on a local minimum of suffering rather than a global one.
  - umvi 5y ago
    > [From the perspective of someone trying to abolish slavery] kind slavers are the worst because they make the situation just tolerable enough that people aren’t motivated to change the system. Who says kind slavers weren't also helping to change the system? It's a pretty big assumption that all kind slavers were only being kind to keep their slaves from being uppity. Re: George Washington
    - Mizza 5y ago
      Wow.
    - ysavir 5y ago
      I think the assumption is that if kind slave owner wanted to help change the system, they would probably start by freeing their own slaves.
      - bzbarsky 5y ago
silentsea90 5y ago
Amazon didn't cause education to get expensive. They at least provide some respite.
glenstein 5y ago
A brilliant and helpful quote. Reminds me of the King quote about white moderates. It's a bit different, but what they have in common is emphasizing that when you "do good" on top of a foundation of fundamental injustice you do the most damage. Because you appeal to the most reachable minds (and therefore the most needed as supporters, the most precious resource) and implore them to support the status quo instead of helping.
- refenestrator 5y ago
  It's do-nothing bullshit. Do good on top a foundation of fundamental injustice? I'm sorry, do you have any other foundations laying around? I surveyed 5000 years of written history and couldn't find any. The options are try to do some good or don't.
  - glenstein 5y ago
    >It's do-nothing bullshit. Thank you for your opinion on the life and work of Dr. King.
    - refenestrator 5y ago
      Wasn't a King quote I was repudiating. He never said "you shouldn't try to do good on a foundation of injustice", because he wasn't an idiot.
      - glenstein 5y ago
        You're wasting both my time and yours interpreting my comments in some of the most foaming-at-the-mouth bad faith I've ever encountered on hacker news. King's Letter from a Birmingham Jail really was critical of white moderates for reasons I described, despite your furious protestations to the contrary.
- wallacoloo 5y ago
  Is there any path to a perfect world system within one lifetime? I’d be extremely skeptical. If you agree there isn’t, then no matter what the world looks like during our lifetime, it will be imperfect. It will be the wrong system. The problem with views like the ones being expressed in this thread is that they suggest at every moment that the thing we need is revolution. That there is no way to advance an imperfect system by doing good. And after any revolution, you’ll still be left with an imperfect foundation, so you’re still forbidden from doing good, and you need another revolution. It is insightful, pointing out where good intentions cause an imperfect status quo to perpetuate longer than it otherwise would. But the status quo will always be imperfect, so we must find ways of advancing it that don’t force everyone through a lower point in order to reach the next maxima (which is sorta what you do when you encourage all those with good intentions to stand down). Not that I’m saying all revolutions past weren’t valid. When you lose the freedom of movement that allows people to seek out higher maxima, then the only way forward actually is revolution.
lostcolony 5y ago
We already kinda do with the military; no other options for high paying work? Join the military for a few years, let them pay for school if you survive. But, Oscar Wilde's quote here is partially right at the societal level, and absolutely wrong on the individual level. Both can be true. Amazon isn't to be lauded as a company for something that is, ultimately, a competitive advantage, in a landscape they don't seek to change, but the change itself can be lauded as a good one in that it's something they can control
newbamboo 5y ago
But encouraging workers to pursue education, may potentially free them from servitude, to Amazon at least. If you want a company to reform itself you need to stand ready to praise the steps they take toward reform.
gfodor 5y ago
You're conflating "being kind" with "empowering" and it causes your point to collapse onto itself like a black hole. An education is a means to escape slavery or indentured servitude, so comparing it to the kindness of some plantation owners is ridiculous.
spoonfeeder006 5y ago
But what if every company offered free upskilling services to their employees, then that might help free people from this And so maybe one company doing it can lead to other companies doing it more? Although this is covid related...so not sure it really applies
jdavis703 5y ago
> becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service. We already have a public education system, and any employee working at Amazon or Starbucks for minimum wage should qualify for Pell Grants that would make community college free anyways.
Aunche 5y ago
I agree that this is setting a precedent for perverse incentives to manifest, but I don't see how Amazon is to blame here. The government is failing to provide higher education to those who can benefit from it. Given this void, the free market inevitably would come with a solution of its own, even if it's suboptimal.
elif 5y ago
Precisely. This fukuyama dream of corporate liberalism paints exactly such a picture: that the tax evading Monopoly which has subsumed a significant portion of US capital (stripped from the common man) can be seen as beneficent for merely satisfying their own need for skilled labor in an economic context they helped foment wherein education has been made unreachable by normal means.
belval 5y ago
Comparing Amazon's fulfillment center's condition to actual slavery on a thread about them offering free tuition to their worker might be the most out of touch HN reply I have seen in a while. You do understand that these people, regardless of your opinion on how the government should handle education at a state and federal level, will actually benefit from this move? It's not some kind of dystopian agreement, usually the employer pays for your education and you must stay there for ~2 years or reimburse what the employer paid. That's it, you can leave, you can go work anywhere.
- createunderrate 5y ago
  > Comparing Amazon's fulfillment center's condition to actual slavery on a thread about them offering free tuition to their worker might be the most out of touch HN reply I have seen in a while. https://imgur.com/a/BqPzT https://imgur.com/a/BqPzT
  - belval 5y ago
    I understand what you are hinting at, but it's not just the quote, the commenter I replied to wrote: > we may end up in the same situation for education, where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service. Where "indentured servitudes" means "a form of labor in which a person is contracted to work without salary for a specific number of years". Yes there is a difference with actual slavery, but this is still very much the parallel he was drawing. Ergo I feel very comfortable saying that this is a very out-of-touch comparison.
hodgesrm 5y ago
> ...we may end up in the same situation for education, where becoming an indentured servant for Amazon or Starbucks takes the place of what should be a public education service. I'm amazed at this criticism. College is and was difficult for many people to handle because it's expensive. It's not lack of will or ability to find time. I got my bachelor's degree while I was serving in the US Air Force at 40 hours plus per week. Yeah, it was a bit of a grunt. But I got the degree. I'm still grateful for their help in funding tuition as well as the flexibility to attend evening classes. I think most people in that situation would feel the same.
arcturus17 5y ago
I love Oscar Wilde to bits and regard him as one of the wittiest writers to live, but he was more of a satirist than political commentator, and at any rate, that quote is utter bollocks.
raxxorrax 5y ago
Exactly the comment I was thinking about. The price of education in the US is quite high and with programs like this you cement this circumstance while penalizing everyone not working for Amazon since universities will ensure the educational product you receive aligns with requirements of Amazon and form students in accordance to that. This is just capturing the offspring, not too different from other strategies to get control of the market.

bogwog 5y ago

> The comments here are disheartening. I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things? Because the benefit of the doubt is for people/companies who haven't repeatedly (some might even say enthusiastically) shown that they don't deserve it. At this point, it's always safe to assume ulterior motives anytime Amazon does something that seems good.

NovemberWhiskey 5y ago
Even accepting that, why go on to assume that it's a zero-sum game between Amazon and the employee? Why can't be what's good value for Amazon also be good value for the employee?
gruez 5y ago
>At this point, it's always safe to assume ulterior motives anytime Amazon does something that seems good. It's a self-reinforcing cycle amazon is bad -> therefore when amazon does something good, it's bad -> amazon is bad -> ...
krapp 5y ago
>At this point, it's always safe to assume ulterior motives anytime Amazon does something that seems good. I assume, in this case, there are tax benefits and that Amazon gets a cut of revenue.
- decebalus1 5y ago
  You assume correctly https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/furthering-your-employees-education-is-good-for-business https://www.wolterskluwer.com/en/expert-insights/furthering-... "As the employer, you may deduct the entire amount that you pay for the employee's educational costs as a business expense. However, only $5,250 is not considered wages and therefore, not subject to payroll taxes. Amounts over the annual limit are subject to income and payroll taxes."
BeetleB 5y ago
When I read this, I always think of Congressman Floyd Spence: The American reaction to a Russian SALT treaty during the Cold War is one well-known example of naïve cynicism in history. Political leaders negotiating on behalf of the United States discredited the offer simply because it was proposed by the Russian side.[1][9] Former U.S. congressman Floyd Spence indicates the use of naïve cynicism in this quote: "I have had a philosophy for some time in regard to SALT, and it goes like this: the Russians will not accept a SALT treaty that is not in their best interest, and it seems to me that if it is their best interests, it can‘t be in our best interest." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_cynicism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Na%C3%AFve_cynicism

arrosenberg 5y ago

" I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things?" I think we have touched the hot stove enough times to know that corporations don't act altruistically. If they do something "nice" it's because it benefits them.

Agent766 5y ago
It's possible for situations to be mutually beneficial which looks to be the case here.
antasvara 5y ago
Does it matter if it benefits them if it also benefits the workers? Sure, it probably benefits Amazon. And honestly, it may be keeping more radical changes from happening. However, it's still an improvement over how things were going. Let's accept that this is a positive step, while still recognizing that Amazon still has a lot of work left to do.
- fwip 5y ago
  I think one reason that people hate it, is that "a positive step" does nothing to further radical solutions, and in many cases, harms it. To use a computer analogy, it's like: the problem is SQL injection. The "positive step" is disallowing special characters in user names. The radical solution is parameterized queries. Adding in shitty character sanitization technically makes the situation better, but the bandaid-solution might make management less likely to sign off on fixing the actual problem. (Note: radical in this sense basically means "addressing the root of the problem, transformative, fundamental" and not "fringe ideology," because everybody knows you should use parameterized queries.).
  - JakeTheAndroid 5y ago
    But what part does Amazon have to play in radical change here? Is the radical change that Amazon should help push for free college federally? Like what specifically is the radical change being blocked by a private company paying for its employees college? We could sit here and create hypotheticals but unless there is something directly actionable, what more can we expect? This might be a bandaid but this issue existed before Amazon, it's not created by Amazon. And many other companies have done this before Amazon. If the issue is the cost of education, there are so many factors causing that how can we expect a single private company to lead that change? So what is the actual proposed solution that Amazon is making less viable through this change, and how could Amazon have enabled that radical change better? And once we derive what that action could have been, we have to evaluate the value it has to Amazon because at the end of the day they are operating a business not a social justice non-profit.

fredliu 5y ago

Agree, wondering if we swap Amazon with some other no name company, would the responses be the same?

shashwatak 5y ago
Obviously it would be different… context matters.
- q1w2 5y ago
  By "context" do you mean your personal bias?
  - mrguyorama 5y ago
    Different companies being shitty in different ways is not "bias"

AndrewUnmuted 5y ago

I remember when Amazon said they'd pay my college tuition back around ~2012 to pursue my graduate degree. Turns out, there are a lot of strings attached. Who'da thunk it?

Taylor_OD 5y ago

> I get it, a lot of people hate Amazon and that perfectly ok, but why can't we be happy when companies do nice things? I don't think you get it. If someone took a big shit on my lawn every morning and refused to stop or clean it up but I found out they were paying for some kids college I'd still their they were a giant asshole. Amazon is doing far worse in the world than shitting on my lawn and isnt doing this out of the goodness of their heart. They are doing it for good pr and because its hard to hire workers like these long term without dangling long term benefits over their heads.

gruez 5y ago
>I don't think you get it. If someone took a big shit on my lawn every morning and refused to stop or clean it up but I found out they were paying for some kids college I'd still their they were a giant asshole. But many people here aren't simply expressing their discontent at amazon in general, they're expressing their discontent at amazon for doing this specific action. You can think amazon is doing a good thing here, but still think that amazon is a bad company. Thinking "amazon is a bad company therefore everything they do is bad" is the wrong attitude to have here.
- nicoffeine 5y ago
  Yes, because instead of just paying higher wages and letting individuals decide what they'd like to spend their money on, they have this PR stunt. Amazon gets some free marketing, another tax write off, and they can use this as evidence that workers don't need protection from their constant scheming. They can continue to exploit their workforce to the maximum extent of the law while they lobby to get more worker rights removed because their workers can potentially jump through a few dozen hoops and get a college degree. Amazon will absolutely use this empty posturing to try and cover up their dismal labor record. "Why should our workers be allowed to take bathroom breaks or even think about forming a union? We gave them free college*!" *Some conditions apply
  - macinjosh 5y ago
    What, specifically, should Amazon do to make you truly happy with them? How much pay is enough? How many benefits are enough? I am genuinely curious.

commandlinefan 5y ago

> 40hrs/week then you have part-time school on top: this is actually something that a lot of people do I did my master's degree this way and actually did better than when I was an undergraduate with no other responsibilities.

dudeman13 5y ago
Ah, but did you do better because of that condition? I was a way better undergrad student at year 4 than at year 1 (normally it takes 5 years to complete a BSc where I'm from).
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  Maybe so!

tenaciousDaniel 5y ago

Disheartening for sure. I'm not sure if this is something that's particular to STEM fields, but there seems to be a far-too-large subset of people who think they're too smart for optimism. Like they've lost the ability to distinguish between pointed, constructive criticism and staunch, irrational negativity. I'm deeply sick of it.

guyzero 5y ago

Yes, while it is true that Jeffery Epstein had a rape island, he also gave a lot of money to charity! Can't people just be happy when good things happen?

Berobero 5y ago

Some people, in an otherwise disadvantaged situation, will benefit from this; that is completely fine in isolation. Still, it's wholly naive to assume that Amazon is doing this out of some sense of looking to do a "nice thing". Most obviously, it is clear that this is being pushed as a pathway to IT education. Amazon, as a business, has massive vested interests in, one, increasing the size of the IT labor force, and two, promoting buy-in to its own IT infrastructure. It is irrational to not initially assume that this initiative is being conducted primarily to pursue such interests. My criteria for being "happy" with the actions of a corporation like Amazon hinge on them doing something utterly unimaginable: going against the interests of their shareholders for the ultimate benefit of society at large. If, for instance, Amazon starts advocating for meaningful and equitable worker representation in business decisions that affect said workers, I'll be "happy".

philocatterham 5y ago

Should this include a disclosure note that you work for Amazon?

fossuser 5y ago

When something has achieved some threshold of 'political-ness' online discussion defaults to being tribal crap. There's sometimes still some interesting discussion buried in comments somewhere, but you can almost predict the entirety of threads on these kinds of topics without reading it. GPT-3 could probably generate HN comments for these topics and be pretty convincing.

Communitivity 5y ago

I think this is caused by a cognitive bias. The more positive things about company X we hear that matter to us, the more we view anything they do in a positive light and the less weight we give to anything that counteracts that belief. Conversely, the more negative things about company X we hear that matter to us, the more we view anything they do in a negative light and the less weight we give to anything that counteracts that belief. Once a trend starts, it gets harder and harder to change people's minds.