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Absolutely. It's not a 9/11-style attack we need to be worried about. No one will let a plane get commandeered ever again. The 9/11 terrorists took advantage of
by the_snooze 5y ago
Absolutely. It's not a 9/11-style attack we need to be worried about. No one will let a plane get commandeered ever again. The 9/11 terrorists took advantage of the "comply with the hijackers" policy in place at the time. That opportunity ended the moment the second plane hit the towers.
The real threat is lone wolf random attacks on the general public like the DC sniper. That's a very low-cost high-impact attack that paralyzed an entire metro region for nearly a month. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks
- baktubi 5y agoI think the nation should make military training/civil service mandatory. The reality is that random attacks will happen in random places and everyone needs to be equipped to handle accordingly. Basic combat training and paramedic abilities, disaster recovery and such associated procedures. This would create a tighter bond between citizens and improve communities ability to look after one-another. If everyone handles those situations steadfastly, terror won’t work. Another benefit is less reliance on national guard to handle climate crisis like hurricanes, fires, and floods.
- baybal2 5y agoFunny fact is that conscription largely lowers the risk of prolonged civil wars, Syrian being one fat exception.
- k7sune 5y agoIt also makes citizens more aware of the cost of war. Had conscription use up so much time of a citizen’s prime years, I think it would be more popular.
- pharmakom 5y agoWouldnt that also equip many attackers with better skills?
- baktubi 5y agoIt would equip everyone with better skills. But more important would be the sense of community involvement—most attackers have a disease of the mind brought on by isolation and lack of empathy.
- jdavis703 5y agoYou basically just need to make the odds of encountering a trained responder higher than a lone wolf. FWIW, this would be a much better approach to the “well regulated militia” part of the second amendment than what the US has today. Edit to fix bad quote of “well regulated militia.”
- SketchySeaBeast 5y agoIsn't it actually "well regulated"?
- jdavis703 5y agoIndeed it is, thanks. But there’s still no reason training can’t be part of the regulations.
- baybal2 5y agoIt would, no doubt. I Russia, despite a nominal ban, you can buy a gun on the vegetable market, but nobody seem to be going, and shooting people out of a sudden other that 2-3 freak accidents per year. Being murdered in a banal armed robbery is a by far bigger risk.
- trident5000 5y agoIm in favor of people concealed carrying for this exact reason...distributed security works better than slow centralized security and a vulnerable public. Obviously this doesnt work for a plane though. Fully expect to get downvoted for this on HN...because its HN.
- choeger 5y agoSo if I want to create real mayhem I just need to have two suicide attackers starting a firefight in roughly opposite directions in a crowded open place and wait for dozens of bystanders to join in?
- trident5000 5y agoI could think of 100 ways you could still do damage to an armed public. Whats your point? Its a deterrent and if someone is doing massive damage they are going to be spotted.
- gilrain 5y agoOr because every actual study has shown this line of reasoning isn’t backed by reality.
- trident5000 5y agoPractically every law enforcement agency is going to disagree with you on that. Id like to see these studies if you dont mind.
- ben_w 5y agoYou can name even one law enforcement agency that wants vigilante firearm violence? Because that is literally what it means to desire the general public act as armed first responders.
- cloche 5y agoIn a suddenly chaotic situation how does the distributed security communicate and know they're on the same side and not treat each other as the enemy?
- sandworm101 5y ago>> military training/civil service mandatory. >> Basic combat training and paramedic abilities Those are very different things. Not every soldier is taught hand-to-hand combat. Not every civil service volunteer is taught to handle a weapon. And basic first aid training is almost universal already. More lives could probably be saves by everyone being trained in basic mental health and de-escalation techniques.
- baktubi 5y agoNot trying to nail down exactitudes here just throwing out some ideas…
- overboard2 5y agoWhat if they don't want to be de-escalated?
- ben_w 5y agoThen the worst case scenario is the status quo. But most situations that currently result in someone getting shot can be resolved less violently, as demonstrated by the lack of firearms carried or desired by the majority of UK cops. A culture shift isn’t an overnight thing, but better worlds are possible.
- xxxtentachyon 5y agoAmong what populations is it near universal? I grew up in an upper-middle class bedroom community, and I only had to get first aid certified in order to be a lifeguard at a local pool. That was just about a decade ago, and I’d be hard-pressed to do anything other than apply a cold compress and perform the Heinrich maneuver now. My father-in-law was a trained physician overseas but became a pharmaceutical researcher when he came to the US, and the last time he was in a situation where he had to perform CPR, he had no idea what to do. I doubt more than 20% of American adults would be useful in a serious casualty situation.
- bbarnett 5y ago
- moreira 5y agoFor the United States specifically, another good argument for this training to be in place is the importance given to the second amendment, the rationale of which is to have “a well regulated militia”. One would assume that everyone being well trained is part of that.
- mgoetzke 5y agoIsn't the national guard serving that role ? Normal citizens with regular training under well controlled regulations.
- amanaplanacanal 5y agoPerhaps all adults should have that training.
- jcranmer 5y agoWhat made the DC sniper attacks so terrifying was that there was no commonality to the targets, except that it was normal people doing normal everyday things. There's nothing you can do to protect yourself from the sniper except to not go outside (which is in fact what a lot of people did in response to the sniper). > Basic combat training and paramedic abilities, disaster recovery and such associated procedures. ... Military training teaches none of those, so far as I'm aware, except maybe the first. But even then, you're getting training on a rifle, which is not the most likely firearm a civilian would be carrying.
- TomSwirly 5y ago> What made the DC sniper attacks so terrifying was that there was no commonality to the targets, As a non-car driver, it stood out to me at the time that all the events occurred on the road, though of course I had no idea of the actual mechanism.
- dsomers 5y agoIt’s funny how you Americans intellectually masturbate so much about putting in place extreme measures like this to stop terrorist when in reality you’re 10000x more likely to die in traffic. However, implementation traffic calming, lower speed limits, and better public transit to reduce the need for and over all level of risk of personal vehicles, is almost never proposed by your type even though it would save far far more lives. But I guess actually being effective isn’t as masculine sounding as ‘everyone learn to shoot guns!’ Lol For a good example of how to make the public safe in a real, non delusional way, look at the infrastructure of the Netherlands, and compare road fatalities to the US.
- lm28469 5y ago> If everyone handles those situations steadfastly, terror won’t work. If your response to terrorism is a year of forced military training I can assure you the terror already won.
- baktubi 5y agoFor the record I didn’t say “a year of forced military training.” What if its a 20 year community involvement?
- marcosdumay 5y agoThe annoying thing is that, ok there are easier targets elsewhere, but if for some reason one of those lone wolfs decide to attack planes in particular the long lines created by those useless security measures are the obvious target.
- atatatat 5y agoLong lines for you, not for the policymakers! Keep voting.
- mywittyname 5y agoIn true capitalist fashion, you can pay to skip the line, just like at Disney.
- Scoundreller 5y agoIt gets even better. In order to get my skip-the-line pass in Canada, I have to sign my life away to the Americans. (And yes, the card works for US too, but there is no Canada-only option, and that’s primarily why I got it).
- wycy 5y ago> The real threat is lone wolf random attacks on the general public like the DC sniper. That's a very low-cost high-impact attack that paralyzed an entire metro region for nearly a month. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.C._sniper_attacks Considering how many crazy, extremely radicalized people are out there, I'm surprised attacks like this aren't much more common.
- arkh 5y ago> Considering how many crazy, extremely radicalized people are out there, I'm surprised attacks like this aren't much more common. Maybe because your base assumption is wrong: there are not many of them.
- ceejayoz 5y agoGo to a local school board meeting on masks and be disabused of this notion fairly quickly. edit: Votes on this one have been a wild ride.
- s1artibartfast 5y agoWhy lump parents that don't want masks with plane bombers and shooters
- ceejayoz 5y agoFair. Terrorists have likely killed far fewer Americans with their actions. We are not good at evaluating the less flashy risks to life. Wearing a seat belt saves a lot more lives than checking shoes at the airport, but we'll fight the seat belt a lot more.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago100yr ago eugenics proponents were saying the same thing while bemoaning societies unwillingness to fully embrace their solutions. 200yr ago people who wanted to build heavy industry were making the same complaints bemoaning insufficient investment. And so on and so on. ~7 billion people aren't stupid. They just don't share your prioritization of whatever the societal issues you perceive to be most important today are. This trope is just a back handed way to call everyone who doesn't agree with you stupid, or some variation thereof.
- oarsinsync 5y ago> The real threat is lone wolf random attacks on the general public like the DC sniper. That's a very low-cost high-impact attack that paralyzed an entire metro region for nearly a month. Or school shootings. That seem to result in no change except additional loss of innocent lives.
- tomjen3 5y agoThat attack was overhyped by the media, which suggest a way to stop them. Personally I am far more concerned by the rent/steal truck and mow down pedestrians mode that we have seen in France and Germany. You might be able to do more about gun safety. You can't really prevent a madman from driving up on the sidewalk deliberately and almost any person can rent a van.
- bserge 5y agoCouple that with a bomb inside the van, ez killscore. But why kill? Why not attach several 20W lasers to a drone and fire them up on a busy bridge/road? Living in suffering is a worse fate.
- arminiusreturns 5y ago> No one will let a plane get commandeered ever again. Won't do much good when the controls are hijacked from terra. This narrative on 9/11 being played on this thread is poppycock. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Zj1fnGtjk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4Zj1fnGtjk