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Consider what happens when you have a bunch of uninformed voters that are forced to vote... Imagine how elections would shift if only the elderly voted or midd

Consider what happens when you have a bunch of uninformed voters that are forced to vote... Imagine how elections would shift if only the elderly voted or middle age. Imagine if only those with children could vote (as they have a reason for the future). The voting base is important. Forcing people to vote sets up conditions where propaganda as opposed to an informed population is making the decisions. That’s what happened to Australia

thisiswater 5y ago
It also sets up conditions by which people have no choice but to make a choice which is in their own interest, rather than having a political process built on vote suppression, non-participation and the kind of clientelism which arises when politicians are more concerned with energizing their own base than expanding their appeal. Quoting political scientist Waleed Aly: "In a compulsory election, it does not pay to energize your base to the exclusion of all other voters. Since elections cannot be determined by turnout, they are decided by swing voters and won in the center... That is one reason Australia’s version of the far right lacks anything like the power of its European or American counterparts. Australia has had some bad governments, but it hasn’t had any truly extreme ones and it isn’t nearly as vulnerable to demagogues" I think your point about compulsory voting creating ripe conditions for more propaganda is not borne out by reality - the USA is just as flooded with fake news as Australia.
- lettergram 5y ago
  I enjoy the quote from a political scientist, while ignoring the reality. In Australia we have an example of what happens when you force everyone to vote. It’s not going well, they literally have concentration camps, ask for papers, don’t let you leave your homes, etc. > I think your point about compulsory voting creating ripe conditions for more propaganda is not borne out by reality - the USA is just as flooded with fake news as Australia. I think you assume what you see on TV is legit news. I agree, you see the same “fake news” everywhere. The problem, is those who believe fake news are often not those voting because they don’t do their own research, they aren’t engaged. You want the engaged going to vote, because they’re engaging with society. Forcing everyone to vote is basically a recipe for getting the candidate that “gifts” the most to the people. It’ll be the downfall of nations.
  - nl 5y ago
    > It’s not going well, they literally have concentration camps, ask for papers, don’t let you leave your homes, etc. Anyone who thinks this is actually what is happening in Australia is falling for propaganda. > they literally have concentration camps Offshore detention centres for refugees seeking asylum is a stain on Australia that cannot be excused or erased. If you mean the quarantine centres they are finally building then.. they are nothing like concentration camps. They are a better alternative than the hotel quarantine system they have been trying and failing to make work until now. And within 12 months we'll hopefully have vaccine rates hight enough travel for vaccinated people can get back to normal and they'll only be needed for people who choose not to be vaccinated and choose to come to Australia. > ask for papers I assume this is asking for vaccine certification? Seems reasonable, given our failure to get enough people vaccinated quickly enough. > don’t let you leave your homes I think this refers to home quarantine? That people in quarantine aren't allowed to leave their homes seems kind of the point?
    - sigotirandolas 5y ago
      I assume the parent was referring to the "five reasons to leave home", as far as I know vaccine passports haven't been implemented in Australia yet.
      - nl 5y ago
        > as far as I know vaccine passports haven't been implemented in Australia yet. I thought they were referring to the ability for businesses to ask about vaccine status.
      - dane-pgp 5y ago
        > vaccine passports haven't been implemented in Australia yet. The lack of vaccine passports is of little consolation when its citizens have already accepted this: "The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person." https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-australia-still-liberal-democracy/619940/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-a...
fighterpilot 5y ago
"only those with children could vote" implies removing the right to vote from people without children, which has nothing to do with compulsory voting.
- lettergram 5y ago
  Yes? That was the point I was making, you don’t necessarily want universal suffrage. Those with long-term interest are better for society
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    That didn't sound like the point you were making, and others agree with me. Everyone is responding to you thinking that you were criticizing mandatory or compulsory voting, not universal suffrage. Your choice of words "forced to vote" rather than "right to vote" conveyed that meaning.
    - lettergram 5y ago
      Forcing people to vote is universal suffrage on steroids. I don’t think universal suffrage is good be default (it might be idk), but I think forcing the vote takes the worst parts of universal suffrage, uninformed and/or indifferent population voting, and over samples that group
d_t_w 5y ago
It's complex. When I first moved to Australia I rankled at compulsory voting as I believe that not participating is a valid political act. Countries without compulsory voting talk about the turnout as relative to previous years, and if it falls too far there will be questions about a mandate to govern. In Australia that can't happen as turnout is always high, this leads to very little opportunity to overhaul the mechanism of elections to make it more applicable to the community, or to overhaul political parties entirely. Red team or Blue team are guaranteed some high proportion of the country voting for them and it gives a false sense of relevance. However I'm now fully in favour of compulsory voting. Why? Look at America, what an absolute shambles of a democratic system. One party spending decades attempting to stop black people voting. Voter suppression and gerrymandering (also not possible in Australia) baked into the political system. No thanks. Australian politicians are no better, they would reach for those tactics in a heartbeat, compulsory voting stops us from heading down that path. There is no utopia, the system has problems, but the trade-off is worth it.
- dalyons 5y ago
  As an Australian living in America for 10 years you absolutely nailed it; compulsory voting effectively prevents what is the worst part of American democracy - the unceasing efforts to stop people voting . Plenty of other bs, but at least the right to participate is guaranteed.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > compulsory voting effectively prevents what is the worst part of American democracy - the unceasing efforts to stop people voting No, it doesn't; sloppy, deliberately overbroad purges of voter rolls (without notification of the targets) are a key voter suppression technique, and are not at all impaired by compulsory voting.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - dalyons 5y ago
kibwen 5y ago
Mandatory voting can be done well if the first two options for every race are "I approve of none of these candidates" and "I approve of all of these candidates". Nobody should be forced to vote for a candidate that they don't want to, but it's also useful to be able to distinguish between a disaffected voter (the first option) and an apathetic voter (the second option). With non-mandatory voting, that distinction is erased, and the winner gets to freely claim that they have a mandate of the masses even if 70% of the eligible populace stayed home because they hate all the candidates.
- robbiep 5y ago
  Minor parties and protest candidates already offer the mechanism for that in Australia, and preferential voting means those protest votes often make a meaningful difference
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
siquick 5y ago
Not sure why you are getting downvoted. In my anecdotal experience, people don't care about politics here and will most likely vote on either "I'd rather have a beer with X than Y so I'll vote for X" or "they're both as bad as each other so I'll just vote like my family always have."

thisiswater 5y ago

It also sets up conditions by which people have no choice but to make a choice which is in their own interest, rather than having a political process built on vote suppression, non-participation and the kind of clientelism which arises when politicians are more concerned with energizing their own base than expanding their appeal. Quoting political scientist Waleed Aly: "In a compulsory election, it does not pay to energize your base to the exclusion of all other voters. Since elections cannot be determined by turnout, they are decided by swing voters and won in the center... That is one reason Australia’s version of the far right lacks anything like the power of its European or American counterparts. Australia has had some bad governments, but it hasn’t had any truly extreme ones and it isn’t nearly as vulnerable to demagogues" I think your point about compulsory voting creating ripe conditions for more propaganda is not borne out by reality - the USA is just as flooded with fake news as Australia.

lettergram 5y ago
I enjoy the quote from a political scientist, while ignoring the reality. In Australia we have an example of what happens when you force everyone to vote. It’s not going well, they literally have concentration camps, ask for papers, don’t let you leave your homes, etc. > I think your point about compulsory voting creating ripe conditions for more propaganda is not borne out by reality - the USA is just as flooded with fake news as Australia. I think you assume what you see on TV is legit news. I agree, you see the same “fake news” everywhere. The problem, is those who believe fake news are often not those voting because they don’t do their own research, they aren’t engaged. You want the engaged going to vote, because they’re engaging with society. Forcing everyone to vote is basically a recipe for getting the candidate that “gifts” the most to the people. It’ll be the downfall of nations.
- nl 5y ago
  > It’s not going well, they literally have concentration camps, ask for papers, don’t let you leave your homes, etc. Anyone who thinks this is actually what is happening in Australia is falling for propaganda. > they literally have concentration camps Offshore detention centres for refugees seeking asylum is a stain on Australia that cannot be excused or erased. If you mean the quarantine centres they are finally building then.. they are nothing like concentration camps. They are a better alternative than the hotel quarantine system they have been trying and failing to make work until now. And within 12 months we'll hopefully have vaccine rates hight enough travel for vaccinated people can get back to normal and they'll only be needed for people who choose not to be vaccinated and choose to come to Australia. > ask for papers I assume this is asking for vaccine certification? Seems reasonable, given our failure to get enough people vaccinated quickly enough. > don’t let you leave your homes I think this refers to home quarantine? That people in quarantine aren't allowed to leave their homes seems kind of the point?
  - sigotirandolas 5y ago
    I assume the parent was referring to the "five reasons to leave home", as far as I know vaccine passports haven't been implemented in Australia yet.
    - nl 5y ago
      > as far as I know vaccine passports haven't been implemented in Australia yet. I thought they were referring to the ability for businesses to ask about vaccine status.
    - dane-pgp 5y ago
      > vaccine passports haven't been implemented in Australia yet. The lack of vaccine passports is of little consolation when its citizens have already accepted this: "The state will text them at random times, and thereafter they will have 15 minutes to take a picture of their face in the location where they are supposed to be. Should they fail, the local police department will be sent to follow up in person." https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-australia-still-liberal-democracy/619940/ https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/09/pandemic-a...

fighterpilot 5y ago

"only those with children could vote" implies removing the right to vote from people without children, which has nothing to do with compulsory voting.

lettergram 5y ago
Yes? That was the point I was making, you don’t necessarily want universal suffrage. Those with long-term interest are better for society
- fighterpilot 5y ago
  That didn't sound like the point you were making, and others agree with me. Everyone is responding to you thinking that you were criticizing mandatory or compulsory voting, not universal suffrage. Your choice of words "forced to vote" rather than "right to vote" conveyed that meaning.
  - lettergram 5y ago
    Forcing people to vote is universal suffrage on steroids. I don’t think universal suffrage is good be default (it might be idk), but I think forcing the vote takes the worst parts of universal suffrage, uninformed and/or indifferent population voting, and over samples that group

d_t_w 5y ago

It's complex. When I first moved to Australia I rankled at compulsory voting as I believe that not participating is a valid political act. Countries without compulsory voting talk about the turnout as relative to previous years, and if it falls too far there will be questions about a mandate to govern. In Australia that can't happen as turnout is always high, this leads to very little opportunity to overhaul the mechanism of elections to make it more applicable to the community, or to overhaul political parties entirely. Red team or Blue team are guaranteed some high proportion of the country voting for them and it gives a false sense of relevance. However I'm now fully in favour of compulsory voting. Why? Look at America, what an absolute shambles of a democratic system. One party spending decades attempting to stop black people voting. Voter suppression and gerrymandering (also not possible in Australia) baked into the political system. No thanks. Australian politicians are no better, they would reach for those tactics in a heartbeat, compulsory voting stops us from heading down that path. There is no utopia, the system has problems, but the trade-off is worth it.

dalyons 5y ago
As an Australian living in America for 10 years you absolutely nailed it; compulsory voting effectively prevents what is the worst part of American democracy - the unceasing efforts to stop people voting . Plenty of other bs, but at least the right to participate is guaranteed.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > compulsory voting effectively prevents what is the worst part of American democracy - the unceasing efforts to stop people voting No, it doesn't; sloppy, deliberately overbroad purges of voter rolls (without notification of the targets) are a key voter suppression technique, and are not at all impaired by compulsory voting.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - dalyons 5y ago

kibwen 5y ago

Mandatory voting can be done well if the first two options for every race are "I approve of none of these candidates" and "I approve of all of these candidates". Nobody should be forced to vote for a candidate that they don't want to, but it's also useful to be able to distinguish between a disaffected voter (the first option) and an apathetic voter (the second option). With non-mandatory voting, that distinction is erased, and the winner gets to freely claim that they have a mandate of the masses even if 70% of the eligible populace stayed home because they hate all the candidates.

robbiep 5y ago
Minor parties and protest candidates already offer the mechanism for that in Australia, and preferential voting means those protest votes often make a meaningful difference
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

siquick 5y ago

Not sure why you are getting downvoted. In my anecdotal experience, people don't care about politics here and will most likely vote on either "I'd rather have a beer with X than Y so I'll vote for X" or "they're both as bad as each other so I'll just vote like my family always have."