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The Feds Want to Know What the McFuck Is Going on with the McFlurry Machines
- hamburgerwah 5y agoAs Johnny Harris so eloquently points out in his "The REAL Reason McDonalds Ice Cream Machines Are Always Broken" video, other big brands like Wendy's use Taylor brand machines without problem or controversy. It's only the McDonalds machines that break because they are, in fact, designed to break, to help McDonalds corporate milk their franchisees. Pun intended.
- skeeter2020 5y agoOne point: the machines aren't "broken" per se; typically the maintenance cycle does not complete and the machine only shows a very cryptic error message. The franchisee then needs to call out a Taylor service rep, wait for them and pay an expensive call-out charge. THe underlying issue is typically easily resolved; something like the hopper was too full of product so the heating cycle didn't get to the required temp; remove some and run it again". So the reason they're always broken is they're not broken but the restauranteur has no way of knowing or resolving the issue.
- hunter2_ 5y agoI would consider "broken" and "SOP doesn't produce expected result" to be synonymous in most cases including this one.
- darkerside 5y agoIntentionally crippled versus broken seems like a fair distinction
- iforgotpassword 5y ago> intentionally broken versus broken Ftfy. It's definitely a fair or rather relevant distinction for the investigation, but for the end user, it's pretty much the same, especially if you're limited to using only that one specific machine.
- darkerside 5y agoIt was a reference to https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crippleware https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crippleware As an end user, I can tell when I'm using it, and it annoys me. Even when I don't have large revenue streams depending on it.
- sk5t 5y ago> something like the hopper was too full of product Shouldn't then there be a guide or actual limiter for maximum hopper fill level based on ambient temperature, or just a TSB, rather than perpetual service calls?
- josefx 5y agoTaylor makes money from these service calls and the franchise owners have to use the machines mandated by McDonalds. There is absolutely no motivation for Taylor to kill this cash cow.
- dredmorbius 5y agoMilking that hopper for all it's worth. So to speak.
- sumedh 5y agoDoes the franchisee know why the machine is not working or can he/she do some basic trouble shooting to fix the issue, if not then it is broken.
- frombody 5y agoNo, they don't know why it's broken. The cleaning cycle doesn't complete during the night, usually because the hopper is too full, and when they come in the next day they just run the 4 hour cleaning cycle multiple times until the cryptic error goes away. As the video showed, when someone invented an add-on for the machines to display human readable error messages, they got attacked with a lawsuit.
- jimbob45 5y ago>In a recent legal victory, a judge awarded a temporary restraining order against Taylor after Kytch had alleged in a complaint that the McFlurry machine manufacturer had gotten its hands on a Kytch Solution Devices with the express intention of learning its trade secrets. The complaint also alleged that Taylor had told McDonald’s and its franchisees to stop using Kytch machines on the grounds that they were dangerous, and that the company had begun development on its own version of the Kytch system at the same time. I think you have it backwards. However, you're still right in essence, since Taylor seems to be attempting to break compatibility with the Kytch machines. Sounds a lot like another company we talk about here...
- thaumasiotes 5y ago> a judge awarded a temporary restraining order against Taylor after Kytch had alleged in a complaint that the McFlurry machine manufacturer had gotten its hands on a Kytch Solution Devices with the express intention of learning its trade secrets. This seems like a strong argument that the concept of trade secrets should be done away with.
- drewzero1 5y agoAnd in turn, the Kytch device is an attempt to crack the trade secrets of the Taylor machines requiring service calls. I have a hard time rooting for either side on this one.
- tedunangst 5y agoWhat's McDonald's corporate's cut of the call out charge, the alleged motivation here?
- MichaelZuo 5y agoPerhaps they signed a deal with Taylor to boost some KPI?
- DSMan195276 5y agoThat video was good, and it's been a few months since I've seen it, but I remember being a bit unsatisfied about the point you mentioned. It seemed implied to me that Wendy's and other places use the same kind of Taylor machines and it was never really explained why they don't break. I understand the idea that McDonalds requires using the Taylor machine which creates some of an incentive against fixing it, but it wasn't clear to me if the other companies don't require their use as well (which would create the same incentive), and even if they don't it doesn't really explain what's different about those machines since clearly they are functioning a lot better.
- colinmhayes 5y agoMcDonalds uses a different model than the other fast food places.
- DSMan195276 5y agoSure, but then why doesn't Taylor just do the same thing with the other models?
- daed 5y agoPerhaps the other companies don’t mandate usage of a single machine?
- DSMan195276 5y agoI don't know, that's what I'm asking. The video doesn't make it clear what's going on with those, and Google doesn't really tell me anything either.
- rincebrain 5y agoMy understanding from one of the articles was that McDonalds wanted them to make a special model that did away with some portion of the manual process in favor of press-button maintenance, and they did. Unfortunately, it turns out that it's hard to replicate the reliability and adaptability of human manual labor mechanically sometimes.
- sircastor 5y agoThe video in question, if you haven’t seen it: https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4 https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4
- malloc2048 5y agoFor those who rather listen. The podcast 'The Sporkful' has an episode called 'Hacking McDonald's Broken Ice Cream Machines' (And I just noticed when looking up the link, they also have video) https://www.sporkful.com/hacking-mcdonalds-broken-ice-cream-machines/ https://www.sporkful.com/hacking-mcdonalds-broken-ice-cream-... And if you both don't want to watch video, nor listen to the podcast episode, the page has a full transcript of the episode. I found it to be a pretty interesting story.
- weeblewobble 5y agoI'm not convinced. McDonalds isn't in the business of disappointing their customers.
- derriz 5y agoI'm not really satisfied with this explanation - it feels like a version of the broken window fallacy. Thinking about McDonalds in aggregate, broken machines mean less revenue and more expense (to pay for Taylor call-outs). On a net basis a double loss to the organization as a whole. Even if these losses fall more on the franchise holders than the company itself (although the company also suffers from the loss in revenue) - creating an incentive for the company, it'd doesn't make much sense to me. This would amount to a scheme to effectively increase franchise fees. Given the huge inefficiency involved as well as the cost of the reputation damage, it doesn't make sense to me when there are far more efficient mechanisms available to the company which would achieve the same thing.
- TheCoelacanth 5y agoBroken window is the idea that the economy as a whole is better off because of a broken window. That's fallacious. Some people benefited because they were paid to replace the window, but the economy as a whole is poorer. The original owner is out the cost of a window. This isn't that fallacy. They aren't saying that there is an overall benefit to the window being broken. They are saying that McDonalds benefits at the expense of franchise owners.
- justsomeuser 5y agoAll those franchises are just making a flurry outta nothin
- justsomeuser 5y ago(McFlurry)
- jessaustin 5y agoWow, Joe is on a roll. Unlike the previous three presidents, he had the stones to stop the two-decade calamity despite constant sabotage by the bureaucratic state. Now he has seemingly put together a functional FTC, also despite inevitable undermining from executive-branch staff. I didn't vote for him before, but if he lives long enough he's going to get my vote next time around.
- DaniloDias 5y agoThis was a wild ride.
- voz_ 5y agoThe (hilariously wrong) idea that Joe Biden is personally involved, perhaps due to the meme of his love of ice cream, is both entertaining and a fantastic window into the thought process of someone with a very poor understanding of civics.
- suby 5y agoFrom the article > The investigation comes after the Biden administration issued a sweeping executive order in July aimed at examining device repair restrictions across the board, including in the agriculture, healthcare, shipping, transportation, and technology sectors. I'm not arguing that Joe personally is involved with this investigation, but the right to repair does seem to be on the administrations radar.
- 1-more 5y agoI have it on good authority that Joe is currently in the situation room monitoring a DEVGRU raid on the Hamburglar's compound.
- SV_BubbleTime 5y agoWait for the scandal, because it’s about to leak he was using US military equipment for his thievery. Not even the McMedia will be able to cover up the 22,000 humvees and 33 blackhawks we “donated”.
- fortran77 5y agoI hope they'll investigate whatever happened to pizza at McDonalds next!
- sokoloff 5y agoTook too long to cook/couldn’t be held partially cooked or cooked-ahead as compared to other menu items.
- driverdan 5y agoShould be switched to the source: https://www.wsj.com/articles/mcdonalds-mcflurry-machine-is-broken-again-now-the-ftc-is-on-it-11630522266?mod=hp_featst_pos4 https://www.wsj.com/articles/mcdonalds-mcflurry-machine-is-b...
- dnautics 5y agoGizmodo's title though...
- ArchOversight 5y agoThe source is behind a paywall, whereas the Gizmodo article can be read by anyone.
- ruperp 5y agoThey should completely switch machine vendors and/or just blend the ice cream with the toppings (a la Dairy Queen). Even when McFlurries come out perfectly, they taste horrible.
- skeeter2020 5y agoMcDonalds franchisees are required to purchase specific equipment, and required to use Taylor for servicing and repairs. The reason this is now on the Fed's radar is because there is strong support that McDonalds corporate is colluding with Taylor to continue this process and promote a system that makes them both money at the cost of the franchisee.
- emmelaich 5y agoExercise - let a mcflurry stand for while. It separates into the gelatine and other stuff. Looks horrible. I never had another one after I saw this.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- CrendKing 5y agoThe REAL Reason McDonalds Ice Cream Machines Are Always Broken: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrDEtSlqJC4
- userbinator 5y agoAccompanying HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26936774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26936774
- javchz 5y agoThis it's why the right to repair movment it's important. Should be seen as an add-on to anti-trust laws, not only consumer rights. When I saw the Harris video, I could only facepalm when I hear the "if any 3rd party (no matter the credentials) touch the machine, it can be dangerous for the consumer"... it's an ice cream machine for god sake, not a nuclear plant reactor core. There are a lot of professionals out there that are able to give maintenance and service to those machines, with zero risks to the customer.
- colechristensen 5y agoI keep feeling like mcdonald’s just doesn’t need federal help to defend itself against a supplier.
- belltaco 5y agoThe suspicion is that McDs also profits from this. It's the franchisees that are hurt.
- javchz 5y agoYeah, here the main person affected it's the restaurant owner that rents the McD franchise. They are affected with downtime in one of their products, and can only hire 1 company to do the repairs, the one authorized by McD.
- perl4ever 5y agoI believe something like 93% of McDonald'ses are franchised.
- topspin 5y agoYou're not following the plot here. Most McDonalds are franchises. The franchisee must pay for McDonalds authorized repair resources to repair machines they're mandated to operate. In other words the people that have to pay for the repairs don't have a choice in the matter. So naturally they neglect it; 'sorry, the machine is down now.'
- fredsmith42 5y agoHow could it be an antitrust issue when a broken machine literally sends the consumer to a competitor? It's anti-antitrust.
- sombremesa 5y agoIt's the franchisees that are being fleeced here, and they don't really have other options unless they want to drop their whole operation.
- tmellon2 5y agoMy considered take on the McFlurry machines is that it's products are primarily a loss-leader for McDonalds. Folks are attracted by the low-priced dessert offerings from the McFlurry machines (which conveniently don't work), so somehow psychologically the attractor remains and is a factor in walking in decisions. Obviously these machines cannot be broken all the time everywhere in the world - but they are ! IMHO Johny Harris's take on the matter does not address the 'loss-leader' / Psychological reason that I put forward.
- jldugger 5y ago>Johny Harris's take on the matter does not address the 'loss-leader' / Psychological reason that I put forward. Well, some data would be advisable. Is it a loss leader? Is their ice cream priced lower than wendy's, burger king, in-n-out or similar? To the best of my knowledge, none of those places have this problem.
- tmellon2 5y agoIn my observation, in international markets the price of a McDonald's soft-cone dessert is 1/6th of their primary burger ! Source (for example): https://menuprice.co/in/mcdonalds-menu https://menuprice.co/in/mcdonalds-menu . The pricing is simply unsustainable if folks walk in only to purchase the soft-cone. The clever marketing folks understand this underlying 'loss-leader' dynamic. The consumers would not tell you this explicitly - as it would appear to be 'cheap' on their part, but consider it a good-deal whenever the 'McFlurry' machines work. Further it has been shown sugar is pretty addictive.
- foerbert 5y agoWhat does the price of a cone in relation to the price of a burger have to do with a cone being a loss leader or not? The price of a burger has absolutely nothing to do with their costs on the cone. If the cone is profitable to sell, then it's not a loss leader and they have every incentive to sell as many of them as they can.
- IntrepidWorm 5y agoThe process of unlocking the managment functions on Taylor machines goes as such (see Wired: https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-makers-started-cold-war/ https://www.wired.com/story/they-hacked-mcdonalds-ice-cream-...): Press the cone icon on the screen of the Taylor C602 digital ice cream machine ... then tap the buttons that show a snowflake and a milkshake to set the digits on the screen to 5, then 2, then 3, then 1. After that precise series of no fewer than 16 button presses, a menu magically unlocks. Seems to be a fairly obvious (in the common sense, rather than the legal sense) of deliberate obfuscation to directly curtail 3rd party repair.
- wyldfire 5y ago> then tap the buttons that show a snowflake and a milkshake to set the digits on the screen to 5, then 2, then 3, then 1. I think I heard Brother Maynard read something from the Book of Armaments that sounded like that one.
- BLKNSLVR 5y agoCopy down a sentence that you've read today that you feel was the least likely for you to come across in the entire duration of your life: The rabbit is the antagonist in a major set piece battle[0] [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit_of_Caerbannog
- AlotOfReading 5y agoAs someone who's done some time in embedded, that sounds like they needed a repair menu and didn't want to add a dedicated number pad. It's a fairly typical solution. Similarly, these expensive industrial machines with lots of moving parts often have a whole bunch of tunable parameters somewhere. Setting these parameters incorrectly can sometimes make the product unsafe or self-destructive, so it's often a good idea to secure access. There may very well be obfuscation here, but the technician menu doesn't really demonstrate it to me. The lack of repair franchising/certification is more problematic, but that's the most of the industry at this point.
- whitej125 5y ago> But after Kytch co-founder Jeremy O’Sullivan accused Taylor of infringing on McDonald’s franchisees’ rights to repair their own McFlurry machines and intellectual property theft in a lawsuit, the FTC reportedly stepped in. The lawsuit mentioned above is found here (and has more details on the "jank code"). https://securityledger.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/20210510-complaint-kytch-v-tyler-gamble-tfgroup-llc-and-taylor-company.pdf https://securityledger.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/202105... Love how they are literally copying/pasting tweets in the prelim statement. I haven't read through a lot of lawsuits but this is the first time I've seen screenshots of tweets in them.
- samlosodesign 5y agoThis is just so wrong though. The McFlurry machine is a separate piece of equipment - a “blender” that the spoon attaches to and stirs the ice cream and your toppings. That is why the spoon looks like a straw, because the spoon essentially attaches to the end of a drill machine. What the author should have said, and they’d have known this if they talked about this article to anyone who has ever worked at a McDonald’s, was that the Ice Cream+Shake machine is the piece of equipment manufactured and serviced by Taylor. It has dual chambers that allow one to dispense “shakes” and the other to dispense soft serve ice cream. It’s just really frustrating to see how little people even bother to understand yet try to ‘dispense’ to others that they have some sort of authority or knowledge on a topic.
- amelius 5y agoI thought the antitrust bit was the interesting part of the story, though.
- FrameworkFred 5y agoLOL, 10/10 Perfect HN headline score!!!
- cletus 5y agoI'm honestly shocked McDonalds corporate let this situation fester. Like I've seen the allegation that corporate is incentivized to milk franchisees but honestly I just don't buy that. The McFlurry machines being broken is now part of popular culture. It's a meme. There are websites to track if they're "broken". And they're broken a lot. How can a company like McDonalds take that kind of brand hit? Screwing franchisees makes even less sense. Honestly I'd be more inclined to believe that it's some current or former McDonalds executive with a relationship to Taylors such that they or someone they know is directly benefitting from the support contracts.
- dforrestwilson 5y agoThe traditionally strong MCD franchiser <> franchisee relationship has actually been fraying for the past couple of years. “Shareholder value” imperatives are driving short-term thinking at the corporate HQ.
- cletus 5y agoOk, so how does the franchisee paying high fees to Taylors for "support" help McD's bottom line? Are they getting a kickback of some kind? Maybe. I'm not sure I've seen any evidence of that.
- ukoki 5y agoBest guess: Taylors made a generous bid to McD corporate to become the exclusive provider of ice cream machines. This bid gives a chunk of money to McD corporate and promises maximum machine costs and maintenance call-out costs for franchisees. However it has no guarantees for call-out frequency, so as per a razor-and-blades business model this is how Taylors is now getting all their profits and the KPI they are maximising.
- Reubachi 5y agoI don't understand this. Why would mcdonald's take a bid from a company saying, essentially: "Our package includes unnecessary maintenance costs and ill-perceived customer opinions of service. But we will pay you for that, and force the maintenece cost on your business partner, the franchise." WHy wouldn't mcdonalds just choose s supplier that has a machine that works? And why would taylor pay them so that they can charge the franchisee...?
- unixhero 5y agoFinally
- andy_ppp 5y agoI’m not so sure this isn’t just an advertising scam to make everyone want a McFlurry…
- shoulderfake 5y agoIt takes a special kind of ANIMAL to go complain somewhere that mcdonalds cant give them a fucking mcflurry.
- esseeayen 5y agoI had a look at what machines they use here in Australia and they seem to be similar to Taylor machines that they showed being used in the USA (this video: https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4 https://youtu.be/SrDEtSlqJC4). However, they almost always seem to be working without issue. If they are almost the same machine (would be for 240v) then I guess I’m glad that whatever is going on in the USA hasn’t reached here. Now the frozen drinks machines (slurpee, slushie, slush puppies) are down a lot more often but even then it isn’t down as much as the ice cream machines in the USA. But talking about McDonald’s McFlurry - in the USA do they still flurry it with the blending mixing spoon? They used to do that in Australia but now a McFlurry has no flurry and instead it’s just a plain sundae topped with Oreo crumbs or mini m&m’s.
- gverrilla 5y ago>But according to a new report, the Federal Trade Commission is familiar with the McFlurry machine as “potentially in violation of antitrust law,” which is pretty cold—colder than the frozen treats the machine serves up, you might say. Is this considered good writing in 2021?
- fallingfrog 5y agoFascinating to see such a huge company intentionally or unintentionally committing suicide. A failure of this magnitude doesn’t happen in a vacuum. It points to a deep organizational rot. They have lost the institutional ability to plan for the future. That being the case, I give them 10, 20 years at best. When the end comes it will happen fast and all kinds of graft and illegality will probably come to light. One cockroach out in the open is a sign of hundreds in the wall.
- Threeve303 5y agoWell we’ve all got to stay busy
- SuaveSteve 5y agoWhy is swearing becoming more acceptable in what was suppose to be professional domains? Those posters in NYC telling you to wear the mask and get vaccinated come to mind.