14 ms·

Post-Brexit immigration: mission accomplished?

69 points by midnightcity 5y ago

the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
The challenge with most startup/entrepreneur visas is that different countries have very different rules and people don't show for these visas and compare them. Most people are forced to go through this because they are required by one way or another to head to a country. That in turn means that there is no desire to make the process any better. Relatedly Brexit is a really odd thing. I feel like absolutely nobody is happy and it will never be over. They are not even compromising on truck driver immigration now so I doubt anyone would touch investor visas.
- matthewhammond 5y ago
  Brexit (and the confected anti EU sentiment that led to it) has only ever been about pointing blame at the EU to explain/distract from the UK's gradual decline. That's why nobody's happy and it'll never be done with.
- the-dude 5y ago
  > are not even compromising on truck driver immigration now Are you saying they should? I am from and in NL, and with all furthering EU integration there was the 'promise' from politicians it would be for the better for anyone. People who doubted this, for example truck drivers, were discounted as 'plebs' and not sophisticated enough. Guess what happened when free movement of labor was granted to the Eastern block? Citizens from these countries quickly replaced the local drivers to the point Dutch transport agencies engineered mechanisms which guaranteed to could keep selecting foreign labor. For the plebs this was of course no surprise. The ruling class just postulates 'everybody should become a knowledge worker'. I am highly educated but keep close tabs with all classes in my community. The EU is mostly a trade bloc, a market for labor, where commodization (of labor) thrives. Primarily beneficial for companies and government (workers). It is my opinion we should build strong local economies with opportunities for all. My only motivation for writing this is to present a differing viewpoint on the truck driver story.
  - the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
    I mean you're basically describing why protectionism exists. Of course cheaper labor will displace more expensive labor, but that is quite literally why these jobs exist. Pay alone is not the reason the UK has a driver shortage, it's also the entire lifestyle that comes with it. The EU works on the idea that you can work anywhere (with some restrictions) not too different from how this works in different US states. Over a sufficiently long period of time the differences in pay in the EU will move closer. Not entirely, but quite a bit. And that is the long game that will solve these problems more than to restrict labor markets.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      Protectionism vs open markets, nothing needs to be black and white. You are just re-iterating the tiresome mantra of the EU beneficiaries 'in the end it will all work out for you too'. Except, maybe not in your lifetime. It is a fundamental neo liberal viewpoint, and I admit in my opinion Labor (parties) have abandonded their constituency since the mid-80s. And I think that needs to change, and if it takes a bit of protectionism, so what.
      - the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
        If you think that in our lifetimes we won't see an increase of quality of live in eastern Europe then I have some bad news for your about your expectations to see benefits from protectionism. Brexit did not make people in the UK happier, quite the opposite. I don't see a future where this will change.
        the-dude 5y ago
        > Brexit did not make people in the UK happier, quite the opposite. Do you have sources for this?
- makomk 5y ago
  The press has done a really bad job of explaining the truck driver shortage - mostly because they want to use it as an anti-Brexit weapon - but "truck driver immigration" doesn't solve the problem. Basically, a lot of UK companies were paying their drivers so badly that pretty much only people living in lower cost of living countries, using the much cheaper training and licenses from those countries, and generally breaking the rules on things like breaks too could afford to do them for that money. Anyone living in the UK with the skills to drive trucks safely could find better-paying work with better conditions doing something else - and a whole bunch of them did. Anyway, the whole point is that those drivers who've left don't actually have the licenses and training to drive in the UK and couldn't afford to live here. The whole thing was an artefact of EU rules specific to lorry drivers that allowed them to work here using cheaper (and I think less stringent) qualifications from elsewhere whilst also living elsewhere, and of even the minimal restrictions there were on things like rest time outside of their cabs being effectively unenforceable. Without the weird distortions caused by those EU rules there's no way to get back to where we were, and opening up immigration wouldn't do it. Also, those rules were causing problems here and elsewhere in western Europe before Brexit, and there was already a substantial shortfall in drivers back then too, so it wasn't a sustainable situation.
  - alibarber 5y ago
    This is spot on. I personally know several people with UK Cat. C+E licences and there is a less than 0 chance that they will be working as lorry drivers any time soon. [They work(ed) in the motor and film industries, the benefits and pay being in a completely different ballpark to haulage, even though driving large vehicles was a small part of the job]
  - orwin 5y ago
    From what i understood from a old French HGV driver who used to do inter-european trips: The UK still have plenty of qualified drivers. Short-haul drivers have to be paid either the minimal wage of a country of the negociated sector wages if the sector Union is good. The Unions in the UK are worse than French unions (i wonder how it is possible) and did not secure any minimal guaranties, the drivers takes those minimals from EU + national laws. And while the pay is not that poor compared to other EU countries, HGV drivers also used to have a tax break and bonuses for crossing the channel. Now i think they lost this advantage (from what i understood). Also long haul UK -> portugal, UK-> Italy were probably the best paid trips, and are now filled by French drivers (probably other EU drivers too). From what i understood, short-haul are the worst: worst pay, you have to get off your truck and help the stock or factory workers fill your truck if you don't want unbalanced cargo or worse, the hour are not much better than long haul except you don't have bonus day off. > The whole thing was an artefact of EU rules specific to lorry drivers that allowed them to work here using cheaper (and I think less stringent) qualifications from elsewhere whilst also living elsewhere No true for local haulage. For long haul, you do have companies who plot the trips to go through let's say Poland so they can take Poland's minimums on pays and qualifications. Not true for all EU long haul though (Uk-France it is quite expensive to cheat)
estsauver 5y ago
Small data point: My immigration process in the Netherlands was quite straightforward. It was easy, direct, and surprisingly accommodating as bureaucracies go. Feel free to send me a message for more details if you're interested, I'm happy to refer folks to our law firm etc.
rich_sasha 5y ago
Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you move your life with your partner and kids - are they welcome? Can your parents come and visit? Is it obvious you can access healthcare, schools, social safety net on fair terms? Will you have to justify your whole existence to a reluctant bureaucrat every 12 months? Pre-Brexit, there was always a bit of tension to foreigners in the UK, but then there always is, and London was by far better than most places. But the guarantees of EU membership were so strong that you didn't even think about any of these issues. My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Whatever hoops you have to jump through to get in or stay, I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign, once actually on the ground. Which is not so much the case in Brexitania.
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign In USA? It just depends how rich you are. Does that make things better?
  - rich_sasha 5y ago
    If I'm from the Republic of South Abroadia, and getting a taxi in Silicon Valley, will I hear a rant about immigrants? Will I get funny looks etc? Maybe yes, I'm only taking about my impressions, I never worked in the US. Certainly doesn't seem to project that image, to me.
  - chii 5y ago
    well, at least you can change how rich you are. You cannot change what race you are.
- bb123 5y ago
  > My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Have you ever tried applying for a US Visa? The process makes the complaints of the author in this article look like a joke.
w_t_payne 5y ago
Brexit was an absolute tragedy for my family. Immediately after the referendum was lost, my children and wife started to experience a level of racially motivated abuse that we had not seen before. This reached a level where my wife felt she could no longer remain in the country and arranged for us to relocate as a family to mainland Europe. The move was not kind for me, and soon after I arrived I had a breakdown and our marriage fell apart. I'm now back in the UK, but the place seems strangely unfamiliar and hostile to me; and whilst I am still able to work, all the joy, happiness and hope seems to have drained from this land.
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  I'm so sorry to hear this, you have my sympathy. It didn't happen to me, but I can see how it could. I hope you find a good way forward, good luck.
- bb123 5y ago
  > all the joy, happiness and hope seems to have drained from this land. That might have more to do with the 18 months of COIVD lockdown than Brexit.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    The referendum was in 2016, 4 full years before covid hit, and as an EU immigrant to the UK I can confirm the same - very soon after the vote it feels like the entire atmosphere in the country changed to be far less welcoming to immigrants.
    - raxxorrax 5y ago
      That is due to spite probably. Making Brexit about for/against discrimination was a serious media mistake in my opinion. I am not from the UK though, but I followed the discussions. I can also understand why people voted to leave.
  - w_t_payne 5y ago
    The COVID lockdown has, if anything, improved matters. With most people staying home, the need to deal with aggression, hostility and abuse on the street is very much reduced.
biscotte_ 5y ago
Immigration was not the main reason of voting Brexit. UKIP is not 51% of the UK electorate. I am surprised to see that, years after that vote, there are still gross misinformation circulating around it.
- w_t_payne 5y ago
  If it wasn't, then why did the Brexit referendum unleash such a torrent of racist abuse?
  - biscotte_ 5y ago
    By « racist abuses », i guess you meant the simple fact of being asked what your accent is ?! (Cf. Previous posts)
    - w_t_payne 5y ago
      My children being physically assaulted and called racial slurs.
- vr46 5y ago
  So what was the main reason?
  - EliRivers 5y ago
    Apparently, "the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK". https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-brexit-and-why-a-refresher/ https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-br... I genuinely don't know how much I believe people when they say that, though; sometimes people saying that are unable to provide specific decisions that were made outside the UK (so not for any obvious practical reason or lived example), but also are unable to expand on the more philosophical aspects of the principle itself or discuss how far such local desision making should go. I might expect a genuinely held belief to be able to do at least one of those. In the interests of full disclosure, I do find that when people say that, I do instantly wonder how true that is; I do find myself instantly suspicious, which I am sure then colours my subsequent conclusions.
truthwhisperer 5y ago
Remote work is excellent nowadays and the restriction was more imposed on people who are not contributing towards a better society and only want to benefit from the welfare state. Europe mainland should close it borders too
vr46 5y ago
Currently a Londoner and having to go through fewer hoops to move to the continent, albeit more than before. There are multiple routes to UK Visas and I have recently discussed with an acquaintance about bringing a business from elsewhere to the UK. The problem, as cited in the article, is that the decision maker may simply Google for similar services and products and refuse. (Source: immigration lawyer I know - https://tom-bradford.com/innovator-and-start-up-using-an-existing-business-that-you-have-already-started-abroad/ https://tom-bradford.com/innovator-and-start-up-using-an-exi...) So it's easier for me to move myself and entire family abroad (TONS of hassle, Brexit or not, what with housing, schools, movers) to go to where the business is than for the business to move here (previously no hassle). A mess. We're an ISLAND for goodness' sakes. How do you think people got here?
rvz 5y ago
More like 'mission failed successfully' for the Tech sector in the UK. Many UK tech startups are getting acquired in all directions and the Big Tech companies in the US continue to open more offices in the UK. The biggest casualty of Brexit in the UK tech industry was ARM. The competition for UK tech startups to hire away talent from the big tech companies has become close to impossible. I don't think we are going to see a 'Google' in the UK anytime soon if this continues.
- ghostwriter 5y ago
  > I don't think we are going to see a 'Google' in the UK anytime soon if this continues. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arrival-e-bus-electric-vehicle-spac-nasdaq-listing-uk-tech-stocks-tesla-nikola-142145860.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arrival-e-bus-electric-vehicl...
  - rvz 5y ago
    And? SPACing is the easy part. Just ask NKLA, LCID, GOEV and RIDE. A company operating in the same league like 'Google' does not get itself acquired, is also profitable and expands onto multiple industries and countries. We'll see if out of these other EV competitors Arrival is either a 'Google', 'Yahoo' or the EV company that could have been but somehow could not.
- native_samples 5y ago
  ARM was bought by a Japanese firm and they are now trying to sell it to a US firm. How is Brexit related?
  - rvz 5y ago
    Brexit made the price tag of ARM significantly cheaper for other firms like SoftBank to take it over. [0] [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2016/07/18/arm-softbank-bargain-britain/?sh=549e61033bc1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2016/07/18/arm-softb...
    - 5y ago
klelatti 5y ago
The UK Home Office has long had a 'hostile environment' [1] policy so what's changed is essentially its extension to a wider group of people (EU nationals). When you combine this approach with administrative incompetence (eg but not limited to Windrush [2] where people who legally had the right to stay were deported to countries where they had never lived as adults) you get some very unpleasant situations indeed. Not surprising at all that all this deters people from moving to the UK. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environmen... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal
- mytailorisrich 5y ago
  From experience I don't think the UK is bad. It was very good before Brexit, now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all and the procedures relatively straightforward. My experience with France is much, much worse, for instance. I don't think the current UK system deters people in itself. It's relative and people take the path of least resistance: If you're from the EU then it has become more difficult to move to the UK whereas you can still freely move around the EU + Norway and Switzerland so perhaps this influences some people within the EU. But if you look further than that (e.g. non-EU person trying to move to EU, UK, US, etc) then the UK is certainly not deterring anyone.
  - gambiting 5y ago
    >>now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all. If by "not bad at all" you mean "previously you could just come over with a 1 day notice and start working immediately" changing to "you literally can't be hired at all unless you fulfill certain criteria that disqualify entire groups of workers" then sure, "not bad at all". At the company where we work 9/10 hires in the last years were from EU for junior/intermediate positions, now that number is zero, we aren't even interviewing because we know we can't hire them. But sure, "not bad at all".
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
That's by design, border control was a selling point of Brexit, as brexiters saw only the bad side of immigration. Which to be fair, is no seamless nor without challenges or cost. I suppose the rational is: • Diminish the friction that multi-culturalism and diversity integration can bring. • Free jobs for the local population. • Having to share less of lands, resources, and infrastructures. And I see the point, but it also fails to take in consideration that: • The UK needs the import/export flow it was used to pre-brexit to keep their current life style. They don't produce much good internally, and they need to export their service. Brexit added huge barriers to that, not just for people. • The current British population doesn't seem very motivated to take back the jobs they delegated to immigration. • Even if it were, it can't be instant, since that requires training an entire workforce and sometimes even require permits or certification. Trucks, bus and cabs come to mind. And the inertia will do some damage. The supply chain is already seen glitches, although not as much as I would have expected. They are surprisingly pretty resilient. • The Northern Ireland situation is a ticking bomb. Yeah, immigrates are not just brown people. People have a short memory though, so I suppose IRA stands for nothing nowadays. They may get a nasty reminder that ignored history is doomed to be repeated. • Scotland nationalism has been exacerbated since they were pretty anti-brexit. Also, as an immigrant, scots were pretty welcoming, they need people there. • Big players that needed to stay in Europe are sometimes moving to France or Ireland. So the promised jobs have to take that in consideration. • The UK has an aging population, with a 0.53% growth rate, and that was when compensated by immigration. • The UK education system sucks. People think Oxford and Cambridge, but the reality is more Leeds Metropolitan. I've studied there, and it's not going to be easy to find qualified workers only in the island. • The UK managed to negotiate a very privileged deal inside the UE. It had most of the advantages, and way less of the down sides that other members. This deal is dead now, they have the worst of all worlds. So even if they get some benefits, the cost may be huge. • France and the UK never really liked each other. The UE brings peace. But now, all bets are off. Also, no more bonding program such as Erasmus to bring future generation together. And good luck to make you BSC valued outside of the UK. And I guarantee the already little patience we had for the retired brits in the South of France that never try to learn proper France will not hold forever now that we are not bros. • All that in the middle of covid. Not their fault, but damn, that's a terrible timing.
secretsatan 5y ago
Speaking as a UK immigrant to Switzerland, even though it is not in the EU, Brexit is just a massive pain. Switzerland has a somewhat strained relationship with the EU, but does have lots of bilateral agreements, like free movement in the Schengen zone, now I'm not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip. Not to mention job prospects, it used to be Swiss, then EU then the rest of the world for consideration for a job, so I've dropped down a category, which is just an extra incentive for any company to not even consider UK citizens for a job. I have a swiss residence permit, so I'm better off than most, and I will be going for citizenship in the next year or so. One of the stranger conversations you can have with uk expats is those that supported brexit and are now perplexed that they suffer consequences.
- frereubu 5y ago
  > One of the stranger conversations you can have with uk expats is those that supported brexit and are now perplexed that they suffer consequences. As someone wrote pithily "This may not have been the Brexit that you voted for, but it was the one that I voted against."
- CaptainZapp 5y ago
  > now I'm not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip. You don't, in theory. However, within a certain zone from the border border agents have the right to ask you for identification. If you can't provide any they will take you along to determine your identity. So while it's usually not a requirement to pass a border within the Schengen zone I highly recommend that you have proper identification on you. Same goes for flying, at least before Covid. It was really rare that I even had to provide id within intra Schengen flights and if I was asked it was usually by the airline at the gate. The normal process was checking in automatically and then just badge yourself through the various checkpoints up and including the plane (depending on airport). Still, I would not recommend not to have a valid id or a passport when you fly. No matter if it's strictly required or not.
- adamcharnock 5y ago
  > One of the stranger conversations you can have with uk expats is those that supported brexit and are now perplexed that they suffer consequences. I had some of these conversations in Portugal in the lead-up to the Brexit vote. "Turkeys voting for Christmas," was a phrase that came to mind.
adamcharnock 5y ago
Somewhat tangential, but I feel like writing it. I left the UK and moved to Portugal shortly after the Brexit vote. I brought a 6 hectare farm for mid-5-figures (for too big for one person really). The process here was as follows: 1 - Get a 'this person really lives here' document from your local village council office (easy, done in a day) 2 - Get a tax number (easy, but may be worth taking an accountant with you, done on the spot) 3 - Go to your local city, show both documents, pay €16, they give you your 5-year residency on the spot. Of course this is harder now the UK has actually left the EU, but still perfectly do-able as I understand it. I also think this can be a tricker process in the big cities. Things are generally more chill in the rural area where I am. I.e. the local official had seen my face around the village and was like 'heh, you obviously live here, whatever', and didn't need to see any title deeds or rental contracts.
- Luc 5y ago
  May I ask if you found your property through a real estate website? I have been on the lookout for a while but I have a feeling I should be visiting the real estate agents in Portugal instead of browsing the web.
  - adamcharnock 5y ago
    I ultimately found my place while being shown around by an estate agent. I did a lot of browsing on https://www.pureportugal.co.uk https://www.pureportugal.co.uk, and the place I ended up buying was listed on there, but I'd actually discounted it for some reason. I know some people here to buy without seeing the property but – generally speaking – I think it is a false economy. This is because: 1 - Places can look much different online. I suspect I discounted my current place because the photos were taken on a cloudy day in the winter 2 - Even in person – and if buying land – it can be really hard to know how the place looks. This is because many places are REALLY overgrown. I had entire terraces which were the depth of a person in brambles. I've known people who have found entire buildings when clearing the undergrowth. 3 - The cost of a trip to Portugal was pretty minimal compared to the cost of buying. Depends on where you are coming from though. Happy to chat more about this. You can find my contact information on my profile / website. Also, if you move to this area you can get high speed broadband from the ISP I've just launched: https://gardunha.net https://gardunha.net
moogly 5y ago
> demands that are almost impossible to meet (can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years?) Yes, easily. That's some hyperbolic braggadocio. If you're a maniacal globetrotter, sure, I can see it being annoying or maybe even difficult, but "almost impossible"? Get a grip.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  The person is a journalist. I think that implies an order of magnitude more international travel than the average person. Surely, not impossible, but might not be too trivial neither.
- CaptainZapp 5y ago
  I can account for all my intercontinental international travelling since 1980, since I kept all my passports. But how would I ever be able to account for international trips, where id was sufficient (so no stamp) or didn't need id in the first place, which is mostly the case since 2008?
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    You just don't mention it.
    - CaptainZapp 5y ago
      It's a really bad idea to lie on a visa application. Even if this lie is by omission and unintentional. If you're caught in such a "lie" you risk not only refusal of your visa, but you also risk being banned from the country for years. It would be a different matter if the question would specifically exclude EU travel. But looking at the UKs behavior towards foreigners in the last ten years I very much doubt it. This hostility is not something cooked up by me, or felt anecdotally, it's an actual government policy implemented in 2012[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environmen...
      - 5y ago
beardedman 5y ago
A palpable amount of entitlement coming from the author. I like it (sarcasm). > can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years Well, absolutely. > It has now become a long and challenging obstacle race It has, or is it maybe quite normal? > But it’s not only the UK — the United States has also made it difficult for founders to immigrate and settle in Silicon Valley. Like the new post-Brexit regime in the UK, it’s expensive, comes with a lot of hassle and restrictions and involves sponsoring and numerous recommendations — usually by VCs who have decided to back the company. How is the British situation any different? Welcome to the everyday life of 3rd world nationals & yet another great example of people in the "1st world" are so completely disconnected. How dare they be asked to prove they *can enter a country (again, sarcasm). Sincerely, an amused 3rd worlder living in the 1st world.
- frereubu 5y ago
  Just because someone has written about these difficulties, it doesn't mean that they're unaware of other people's difficulties. In fact I think it quite likely that they're a proponent of less border controls for people from developing countries.
  - joduplessis 5y ago
    To be fair, making something like "can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years?" sound like it's something exceptional to ask isn't really helping. Also speaking as someone from SA in Germany, accounting for the last say, 20yrs of travel, is also fine because it's very normal. However, I'm all for conversations highlighting the ridiculous nature of international relocation, having done so myself.
- gampleman 5y ago
  > can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years I think this really depends on your lifestyle. For the EU generation of people this can be really challenging. When I was asked to provide (just 5 years) this information, I had to attach an extra two sheets of paper to the form, as the space they provided (about a 1/3 of a page IIRC) was absurdly small. And I'm sure that only had air travel (since I found most of my travel dates by search my email for airline bookings) and certainly missed travel with family members who did bookings as well as many, many car trips. Also no one tells you that 10 years later you're going to need the dates you crossed each border and that you should be keeping this information around.
aborsy 5y ago
Globalization brought winners and losers. It was supposed to lift all boats when enthusiastically developed in 80s and 90s by academics, but it didn’t. And it’s not pretty for a lot of people and societies. I understand the backlash, with Brexit vote and beyond. I don’t like the criticism that UK people receive on choice they made for their society.
netcan 5y ago
So... here in Ireland we're pretty open to immigration, both culturally and bureaucratically. English speaking, and Dublin has many of London's advantages on a more modest scale. The bottleneck here is housing, office space and such. Ireland, like much of Europe, is change averse. We don't build new towns or deal with physical changes to places well, or willingly. Slight upticks in immigration can quickly create big housing shortages. It's an option though, and for the most part, we're more dedicated to the European project now than before Brexit. It's a good place for both UK & EU facing business. It's certainly not perfect, but worth considering.
streamofdigits 5y ago
London's/UK's loss is Europe's gain. Why should there even be this systemic entrepreneurial brain drain if not for large scale regulatory arbitrage (affecting both the financial side and available business models) There is no doubt that beyond lip service many European countries have sclerotic attitudes towards innovation and even hostility towards aspiring newcomers that "rock the boat" of cozy existing arrangements. But the only legitimate path is to fight for reforms within. Any serious innovation carries risks and ultimately those risks must be understood and accepted by society. Can you even do that from an offshore location? More specifically for the European Union countries (and their aspiration of all sorts of unified digital / financial markets) the only meaningful design would be to spread the know-how (and thus acceptance / trust) across the region. Instead of looking for the next "winner-takes-all" silicon valley of Europe, think in terms of a strong network of neurons, all being equally required for the brain to function. As for London/UK one would only hope that sooner rather than later it will rejoin the European project as an indispensable additional node.
latte 5y ago
As someone from outside the EU, I had to go through the bureaucratic hassle described in the article to get into the UK. After Brexit, the visa requirements were somewhat relaxed in comparison to what they had been for non-EU citizens. For example, previously to hire a non-EU citizen, an employer had to advertise the vacancy on the market for a certain amount of time to 'prove' that they cannot fill it with an EU citizen. Now this requirement, if I remember correctly, has been abolished. I am against Brexit for a number of reasons, but the differences in immigration rules for different people were too heavily affected by the 20th century war alliances, which have thoroughly influenced the current shape and composition of the EU. I am glad that the playing ground is now somewhat more even.
ghostwriter 5y ago
The mentioned "five figures" fees and the language test are peanuts. The journalists are missing the point and do not see that major industries that feed IT sector with new opportunities and contracts (such as entertainment and construction) have already made their mind and have chosen Greater London over EU cities as their primary european hub [1] [2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNXotuREZQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNXotuREZQ4

69 points by midnightcity 5y ago

The challenge with most startup/entrepreneur visas is that different countries have very different rules and people don't show for these visas and compare them. Most people are forced to go through this because they are required by one way or another to head to a country. That in turn means that there is no desire to make the process any better. Relatedly Brexit is a really odd thing. I feel like absolutely nobody is happy and it will never be over. They are not even compromising on truck driver immigration now so I doubt anyone would touch investor visas.

matthewhammond 5y ago
Brexit (and the confected anti EU sentiment that led to it) has only ever been about pointing blame at the EU to explain/distract from the UK's gradual decline. That's why nobody's happy and it'll never be done with.
the-dude 5y ago
> are not even compromising on truck driver immigration now Are you saying they should? I am from and in NL, and with all furthering EU integration there was the 'promise' from politicians it would be for the better for anyone. People who doubted this, for example truck drivers, were discounted as 'plebs' and not sophisticated enough. Guess what happened when free movement of labor was granted to the Eastern block? Citizens from these countries quickly replaced the local drivers to the point Dutch transport agencies engineered mechanisms which guaranteed to could keep selecting foreign labor. For the plebs this was of course no surprise. The ruling class just postulates 'everybody should become a knowledge worker'. I am highly educated but keep close tabs with all classes in my community. The EU is mostly a trade bloc, a market for labor, where commodization (of labor) thrives. Primarily beneficial for companies and government (workers). It is my opinion we should build strong local economies with opportunities for all. My only motivation for writing this is to present a differing viewpoint on the truck driver story.
- the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
  I mean you're basically describing why protectionism exists. Of course cheaper labor will displace more expensive labor, but that is quite literally why these jobs exist. Pay alone is not the reason the UK has a driver shortage, it's also the entire lifestyle that comes with it. The EU works on the idea that you can work anywhere (with some restrictions) not too different from how this works in different US states. Over a sufficiently long period of time the differences in pay in the EU will move closer. Not entirely, but quite a bit. And that is the long game that will solve these problems more than to restrict labor markets.
  - the-dude 5y ago
    Protectionism vs open markets, nothing needs to be black and white. You are just re-iterating the tiresome mantra of the EU beneficiaries 'in the end it will all work out for you too'. Except, maybe not in your lifetime. It is a fundamental neo liberal viewpoint, and I admit in my opinion Labor (parties) have abandonded their constituency since the mid-80s. And I think that needs to change, and if it takes a bit of protectionism, so what.
    - the_mitsuhiko 5y ago
      If you think that in our lifetimes we won't see an increase of quality of live in eastern Europe then I have some bad news for your about your expectations to see benefits from protectionism. Brexit did not make people in the UK happier, quite the opposite. I don't see a future where this will change.
      - the-dude 5y ago
        > Brexit did not make people in the UK happier, quite the opposite. Do you have sources for this?
makomk 5y ago
The press has done a really bad job of explaining the truck driver shortage - mostly because they want to use it as an anti-Brexit weapon - but "truck driver immigration" doesn't solve the problem. Basically, a lot of UK companies were paying their drivers so badly that pretty much only people living in lower cost of living countries, using the much cheaper training and licenses from those countries, and generally breaking the rules on things like breaks too could afford to do them for that money. Anyone living in the UK with the skills to drive trucks safely could find better-paying work with better conditions doing something else - and a whole bunch of them did. Anyway, the whole point is that those drivers who've left don't actually have the licenses and training to drive in the UK and couldn't afford to live here. The whole thing was an artefact of EU rules specific to lorry drivers that allowed them to work here using cheaper (and I think less stringent) qualifications from elsewhere whilst also living elsewhere, and of even the minimal restrictions there were on things like rest time outside of their cabs being effectively unenforceable. Without the weird distortions caused by those EU rules there's no way to get back to where we were, and opening up immigration wouldn't do it. Also, those rules were causing problems here and elsewhere in western Europe before Brexit, and there was already a substantial shortfall in drivers back then too, so it wasn't a sustainable situation.
- alibarber 5y ago
  This is spot on. I personally know several people with UK Cat. C+E licences and there is a less than 0 chance that they will be working as lorry drivers any time soon. [They work(ed) in the motor and film industries, the benefits and pay being in a completely different ballpark to haulage, even though driving large vehicles was a small part of the job]
- orwin 5y ago
  From what i understood from a old French HGV driver who used to do inter-european trips: The UK still have plenty of qualified drivers. Short-haul drivers have to be paid either the minimal wage of a country of the negociated sector wages if the sector Union is good. The Unions in the UK are worse than French unions (i wonder how it is possible) and did not secure any minimal guaranties, the drivers takes those minimals from EU + national laws. And while the pay is not that poor compared to other EU countries, HGV drivers also used to have a tax break and bonuses for crossing the channel. Now i think they lost this advantage (from what i understood). Also long haul UK -> portugal, UK-> Italy were probably the best paid trips, and are now filled by French drivers (probably other EU drivers too). From what i understood, short-haul are the worst: worst pay, you have to get off your truck and help the stock or factory workers fill your truck if you don't want unbalanced cargo or worse, the hour are not much better than long haul except you don't have bonus day off. > The whole thing was an artefact of EU rules specific to lorry drivers that allowed them to work here using cheaper (and I think less stringent) qualifications from elsewhere whilst also living elsewhere No true for local haulage. For long haul, you do have companies who plot the trips to go through let's say Poland so they can take Poland's minimums on pays and qualifications. Not true for all EU long haul though (Uk-France it is quite expensive to cheat)

estsauver 5y ago

Small data point: My immigration process in the Netherlands was quite straightforward. It was easy, direct, and surprisingly accommodating as bureaucracies go. Feel free to send me a message for more details if you're interested, I'm happy to refer folks to our law firm etc.

rich_sasha 5y ago

Sad but true. I think the most fundamental change of Brexit is the overwhelming "you're not welcome" message. Visas, papers, bureaucrats, people can deal with. But the idea that you're at best tolerated so long as you pay your taxes is really off-putting (even for me, now UK citizen and long-time resident). Also, all these schemes forget that moving for a job is so much more than that - it is moving a life. Can you move your life with your partner and kids - are they welcome? Can your parents come and visit? Is it obvious you can access healthcare, schools, social safety net on fair terms? Will you have to justify your whole existence to a reluctant bureaucrat every 12 months? Pre-Brexit, there was always a bit of tension to foreigners in the UK, but then there always is, and London was by far better than most places. But the guarantees of EU membership were so strong that you didn't even think about any of these issues. My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Whatever hoops you have to jump through to get in or stay, I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign, once actually on the ground. Which is not so much the case in Brexitania.

throw_m239339 5y ago
> I don't get the impression people are looked down on because they are foreign In USA? It just depends how rich you are. Does that make things better?
- rich_sasha 5y ago
  If I'm from the Republic of South Abroadia, and getting a taxi in Silicon Valley, will I hear a rant about immigrants? Will I get funny looks etc? Maybe yes, I'm only taking about my impressions, I never worked in the US. Certainly doesn't seem to project that image, to me.
- chii 5y ago
  well, at least you can change how rich you are. You cannot change what race you are.
bb123 5y ago
> My impression is that another upside Silicon Valley has over the UK is that the US is genuinely a country of immigrants. Have you ever tried applying for a US Visa? The process makes the complaints of the author in this article look like a joke.

w_t_payne 5y ago

Brexit was an absolute tragedy for my family. Immediately after the referendum was lost, my children and wife started to experience a level of racially motivated abuse that we had not seen before. This reached a level where my wife felt she could no longer remain in the country and arranged for us to relocate as a family to mainland Europe. The move was not kind for me, and soon after I arrived I had a breakdown and our marriage fell apart. I'm now back in the UK, but the place seems strangely unfamiliar and hostile to me; and whilst I am still able to work, all the joy, happiness and hope seems to have drained from this land.

rich_sasha 5y ago
I'm so sorry to hear this, you have my sympathy. It didn't happen to me, but I can see how it could. I hope you find a good way forward, good luck.
bb123 5y ago
> all the joy, happiness and hope seems to have drained from this land. That might have more to do with the 18 months of COIVD lockdown than Brexit.
- gambiting 5y ago
  The referendum was in 2016, 4 full years before covid hit, and as an EU immigrant to the UK I can confirm the same - very soon after the vote it feels like the entire atmosphere in the country changed to be far less welcoming to immigrants.
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    That is due to spite probably. Making Brexit about for/against discrimination was a serious media mistake in my opinion. I am not from the UK though, but I followed the discussions. I can also understand why people voted to leave.
- w_t_payne 5y ago
  The COVID lockdown has, if anything, improved matters. With most people staying home, the need to deal with aggression, hostility and abuse on the street is very much reduced.

biscotte_ 5y ago

Immigration was not the main reason of voting Brexit. UKIP is not 51% of the UK electorate. I am surprised to see that, years after that vote, there are still gross misinformation circulating around it.

w_t_payne 5y ago
If it wasn't, then why did the Brexit referendum unleash such a torrent of racist abuse?
- biscotte_ 5y ago
  By « racist abuses », i guess you meant the simple fact of being asked what your accent is ?! (Cf. Previous posts)
  - w_t_payne 5y ago
    My children being physically assaulted and called racial slurs.
vr46 5y ago
So what was the main reason?
- EliRivers 5y ago
  Apparently, "the principle that decisions about the UK should be taken in the UK". https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-brexit-and-why-a-refresher/ https://lordashcroftpolls.com/2019/02/how-the-uk-voted-on-br... I genuinely don't know how much I believe people when they say that, though; sometimes people saying that are unable to provide specific decisions that were made outside the UK (so not for any obvious practical reason or lived example), but also are unable to expand on the more philosophical aspects of the principle itself or discuss how far such local desision making should go. I might expect a genuinely held belief to be able to do at least one of those. In the interests of full disclosure, I do find that when people say that, I do instantly wonder how true that is; I do find myself instantly suspicious, which I am sure then colours my subsequent conclusions.

truthwhisperer 5y ago

Remote work is excellent nowadays and the restriction was more imposed on people who are not contributing towards a better society and only want to benefit from the welfare state. Europe mainland should close it borders too

vr46 5y ago

Currently a Londoner and having to go through fewer hoops to move to the continent, albeit more than before. There are multiple routes to UK Visas and I have recently discussed with an acquaintance about bringing a business from elsewhere to the UK. The problem, as cited in the article, is that the decision maker may simply Google for similar services and products and refuse. (Source: immigration lawyer I know - https://tom-bradford.com/innovator-and-start-up-using-an-existing-business-that-you-have-already-started-abroad/ https://tom-bradford.com/innovator-and-start-up-using-an-exi...) So it's easier for me to move myself and entire family abroad (TONS of hassle, Brexit or not, what with housing, schools, movers) to go to where the business is than for the business to move here (previously no hassle). A mess. We're an ISLAND for goodness' sakes. How do you think people got here?

rvz 5y ago

More like 'mission failed successfully' for the Tech sector in the UK. Many UK tech startups are getting acquired in all directions and the Big Tech companies in the US continue to open more offices in the UK. The biggest casualty of Brexit in the UK tech industry was ARM. The competition for UK tech startups to hire away talent from the big tech companies has become close to impossible. I don't think we are going to see a 'Google' in the UK anytime soon if this continues.

ghostwriter 5y ago
> I don't think we are going to see a 'Google' in the UK anytime soon if this continues. https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arrival-e-bus-electric-vehicle-spac-nasdaq-listing-uk-tech-stocks-tesla-nikola-142145860.html https://finance.yahoo.com/news/arrival-e-bus-electric-vehicl...
- rvz 5y ago
  And? SPACing is the easy part. Just ask NKLA, LCID, GOEV and RIDE. A company operating in the same league like 'Google' does not get itself acquired, is also profitable and expands onto multiple industries and countries. We'll see if out of these other EV competitors Arrival is either a 'Google', 'Yahoo' or the EV company that could have been but somehow could not.
native_samples 5y ago
ARM was bought by a Japanese firm and they are now trying to sell it to a US firm. How is Brexit related?
- rvz 5y ago
  Brexit made the price tag of ARM significantly cheaper for other firms like SoftBank to take it over. [0] [0] https://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2016/07/18/arm-softbank-bargain-britain/?sh=549e61033bc1 https://www.forbes.com/sites/parmyolson/2016/07/18/arm-softb...
  - 5y ago

klelatti 5y ago

The UK Home Office has long had a 'hostile environment' [1] policy so what's changed is essentially its extension to a wider group of people (EU nationals). When you combine this approach with administrative incompetence (eg but not limited to Windrush [2] where people who legally had the right to stay were deported to countries where they had never lived as adults) you get some very unpleasant situations indeed. Not surprising at all that all this deters people from moving to the UK. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environmen... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windrush_scandal

mytailorisrich 5y ago
From experience I don't think the UK is bad. It was very good before Brexit, now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all and the procedures relatively straightforward. My experience with France is much, much worse, for instance. I don't think the current UK system deters people in itself. It's relative and people take the path of least resistance: If you're from the EU then it has become more difficult to move to the UK whereas you can still freely move around the EU + Norway and Switzerland so perhaps this influences some people within the EU. But if you look further than that (e.g. non-EU person trying to move to EU, UK, US, etc) then the UK is certainly not deterring anyone.
- gambiting 5y ago
  >>now obviously people have to jump through a few hoops since there is no free movement with the EU anymore but it's not bad at all. If by "not bad at all" you mean "previously you could just come over with a 1 day notice and start working immediately" changing to "you literally can't be hired at all unless you fulfill certain criteria that disqualify entire groups of workers" then sure, "not bad at all". At the company where we work 9/10 hires in the last years were from EU for junior/intermediate positions, now that number is zero, we aren't even interviewing because we know we can't hire them. But sure, "not bad at all".

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

That's by design, border control was a selling point of Brexit, as brexiters saw only the bad side of immigration. Which to be fair, is no seamless nor without challenges or cost. I suppose the rational is: • Diminish the friction that multi-culturalism and diversity integration can bring. • Free jobs for the local population. • Having to share less of lands, resources, and infrastructures. And I see the point, but it also fails to take in consideration that: • The UK needs the import/export flow it was used to pre-brexit to keep their current life style. They don't produce much good internally, and they need to export their service. Brexit added huge barriers to that, not just for people. • The current British population doesn't seem very motivated to take back the jobs they delegated to immigration. • Even if it were, it can't be instant, since that requires training an entire workforce and sometimes even require permits or certification. Trucks, bus and cabs come to mind. And the inertia will do some damage. The supply chain is already seen glitches, although not as much as I would have expected. They are surprisingly pretty resilient. • The Northern Ireland situation is a ticking bomb. Yeah, immigrates are not just brown people. People have a short memory though, so I suppose IRA stands for nothing nowadays. They may get a nasty reminder that ignored history is doomed to be repeated. • Scotland nationalism has been exacerbated since they were pretty anti-brexit. Also, as an immigrant, scots were pretty welcoming, they need people there. • Big players that needed to stay in Europe are sometimes moving to France or Ireland. So the promised jobs have to take that in consideration. • The UK has an aging population, with a 0.53% growth rate, and that was when compensated by immigration. • The UK education system sucks. People think Oxford and Cambridge, but the reality is more Leeds Metropolitan. I've studied there, and it's not going to be easy to find qualified workers only in the island. • The UK managed to negotiate a very privileged deal inside the UE. It had most of the advantages, and way less of the down sides that other members. This deal is dead now, they have the worst of all worlds. So even if they get some benefits, the cost may be huge. • France and the UK never really liked each other. The UE brings peace. But now, all bets are off. Also, no more bonding program such as Erasmus to bring future generation together. And good luck to make you BSC valued outside of the UK. And I guarantee the already little patience we had for the retired brits in the South of France that never try to learn proper France will not hold forever now that we are not bros. • All that in the middle of covid. Not their fault, but damn, that's a terrible timing.

secretsatan 5y ago

Speaking as a UK immigrant to Switzerland, even though it is not in the EU, Brexit is just a massive pain. Switzerland has a somewhat strained relationship with the EU, but does have lots of bilateral agreements, like free movement in the Schengen zone, now I'm not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip. Not to mention job prospects, it used to be Swiss, then EU then the rest of the world for consideration for a job, so I've dropped down a category, which is just an extra incentive for any company to not even consider UK citizens for a job. I have a swiss residence permit, so I'm better off than most, and I will be going for citizenship in the next year or so. One of the stranger conversations you can have with uk expats is those that supported brexit and are now perplexed that they suffer consequences.

frereubu 5y ago
> One of the stranger conversations you can have with uk expats is those that supported brexit and are now perplexed that they suffer consequences. As someone wrote pithily "This may not have been the Brexit that you voted for, but it was the one that I voted against."
CaptainZapp 5y ago
> now I'm not even sure if I need a passport to cross the border to France for a day trip. You don't, in theory. However, within a certain zone from the border border agents have the right to ask you for identification. If you can't provide any they will take you along to determine your identity. So while it's usually not a requirement to pass a border within the Schengen zone I highly recommend that you have proper identification on you. Same goes for flying, at least before Covid. It was really rare that I even had to provide id within intra Schengen flights and if I was asked it was usually by the airline at the gate. The normal process was checking in automatically and then just badge yourself through the various checkpoints up and including the plane (depending on airport). Still, I would not recommend not to have a valid id or a passport when you fly. No matter if it's strictly required or not.
adamcharnock 5y ago
> One of the stranger conversations you can have with uk expats is those that supported brexit and are now perplexed that they suffer consequences. I had some of these conversations in Portugal in the lead-up to the Brexit vote. "Turkeys voting for Christmas," was a phrase that came to mind.

adamcharnock 5y ago

Somewhat tangential, but I feel like writing it. I left the UK and moved to Portugal shortly after the Brexit vote. I brought a 6 hectare farm for mid-5-figures (for too big for one person really). The process here was as follows: 1 - Get a 'this person really lives here' document from your local village council office (easy, done in a day) 2 - Get a tax number (easy, but may be worth taking an accountant with you, done on the spot) 3 - Go to your local city, show both documents, pay €16, they give you your 5-year residency on the spot. Of course this is harder now the UK has actually left the EU, but still perfectly do-able as I understand it. I also think this can be a tricker process in the big cities. Things are generally more chill in the rural area where I am. I.e. the local official had seen my face around the village and was like 'heh, you obviously live here, whatever', and didn't need to see any title deeds or rental contracts.

Luc 5y ago
May I ask if you found your property through a real estate website? I have been on the lookout for a while but I have a feeling I should be visiting the real estate agents in Portugal instead of browsing the web.
- adamcharnock 5y ago
  I ultimately found my place while being shown around by an estate agent. I did a lot of browsing on https://www.pureportugal.co.uk https://www.pureportugal.co.uk, and the place I ended up buying was listed on there, but I'd actually discounted it for some reason. I know some people here to buy without seeing the property but – generally speaking – I think it is a false economy. This is because: 1 - Places can look much different online. I suspect I discounted my current place because the photos were taken on a cloudy day in the winter 2 - Even in person – and if buying land – it can be really hard to know how the place looks. This is because many places are REALLY overgrown. I had entire terraces which were the depth of a person in brambles. I've known people who have found entire buildings when clearing the undergrowth. 3 - The cost of a trip to Portugal was pretty minimal compared to the cost of buying. Depends on where you are coming from though. Happy to chat more about this. You can find my contact information on my profile / website. Also, if you move to this area you can get high speed broadband from the ISP I've just launched: https://gardunha.net https://gardunha.net

moogly 5y ago

> demands that are almost impossible to meet (can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years?) Yes, easily. That's some hyperbolic braggadocio. If you're a maniacal globetrotter, sure, I can see it being annoying or maybe even difficult, but "almost impossible"? Get a grip.

raverbashing 5y ago
The person is a journalist. I think that implies an order of magnitude more international travel than the average person. Surely, not impossible, but might not be too trivial neither.
CaptainZapp 5y ago
I can account for all my intercontinental international travelling since 1980, since I kept all my passports. But how would I ever be able to account for international trips, where id was sufficient (so no stamp) or didn't need id in the first place, which is mostly the case since 2008?
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  You just don't mention it.
  - CaptainZapp 5y ago
    It's a really bad idea to lie on a visa application. Even if this lie is by omission and unintentional. If you're caught in such a "lie" you risk not only refusal of your visa, but you also risk being banned from the country for years. It would be a different matter if the question would specifically exclude EU travel. But looking at the UKs behavior towards foreigners in the last ten years I very much doubt it. This hostility is not something cooked up by me, or felt anecdotally, it's an actual government policy implemented in 2012[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environment_policy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Office_hostile_environmen...
    - 5y ago

beardedman 5y ago

A palpable amount of entitlement coming from the author. I like it (sarcasm). > can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years Well, absolutely. > It has now become a long and challenging obstacle race It has, or is it maybe quite normal? > But it’s not only the UK — the United States has also made it difficult for founders to immigrate and settle in Silicon Valley. Like the new post-Brexit regime in the UK, it’s expensive, comes with a lot of hassle and restrictions and involves sponsoring and numerous recommendations — usually by VCs who have decided to back the company. How is the British situation any different? Welcome to the everyday life of 3rd world nationals & yet another great example of people in the "1st world" are so completely disconnected. How dare they be asked to prove they *can enter a country (again, sarcasm). Sincerely, an amused 3rd worlder living in the 1st world.

frereubu 5y ago
Just because someone has written about these difficulties, it doesn't mean that they're unaware of other people's difficulties. In fact I think it quite likely that they're a proponent of less border controls for people from developing countries.
- joduplessis 5y ago
  To be fair, making something like "can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years?" sound like it's something exceptional to ask isn't really helping. Also speaking as someone from SA in Germany, accounting for the last say, 20yrs of travel, is also fine because it's very normal. However, I'm all for conversations highlighting the ridiculous nature of international relocation, having done so myself.
gampleman 5y ago
> can you account for all your international travels over the past 10 years I think this really depends on your lifestyle. For the EU generation of people this can be really challenging. When I was asked to provide (just 5 years) this information, I had to attach an extra two sheets of paper to the form, as the space they provided (about a 1/3 of a page IIRC) was absurdly small. And I'm sure that only had air travel (since I found most of my travel dates by search my email for airline bookings) and certainly missed travel with family members who did bookings as well as many, many car trips. Also no one tells you that 10 years later you're going to need the dates you crossed each border and that you should be keeping this information around.

aborsy 5y ago

Globalization brought winners and losers. It was supposed to lift all boats when enthusiastically developed in 80s and 90s by academics, but it didn’t. And it’s not pretty for a lot of people and societies. I understand the backlash, with Brexit vote and beyond. I don’t like the criticism that UK people receive on choice they made for their society.

netcan 5y ago

So... here in Ireland we're pretty open to immigration, both culturally and bureaucratically. English speaking, and Dublin has many of London's advantages on a more modest scale. The bottleneck here is housing, office space and such. Ireland, like much of Europe, is change averse. We don't build new towns or deal with physical changes to places well, or willingly. Slight upticks in immigration can quickly create big housing shortages. It's an option though, and for the most part, we're more dedicated to the European project now than before Brexit. It's a good place for both UK & EU facing business. It's certainly not perfect, but worth considering.

streamofdigits 5y ago

London's/UK's loss is Europe's gain. Why should there even be this systemic entrepreneurial brain drain if not for large scale regulatory arbitrage (affecting both the financial side and available business models) There is no doubt that beyond lip service many European countries have sclerotic attitudes towards innovation and even hostility towards aspiring newcomers that "rock the boat" of cozy existing arrangements. But the only legitimate path is to fight for reforms within. Any serious innovation carries risks and ultimately those risks must be understood and accepted by society. Can you even do that from an offshore location? More specifically for the European Union countries (and their aspiration of all sorts of unified digital / financial markets) the only meaningful design would be to spread the know-how (and thus acceptance / trust) across the region. Instead of looking for the next "winner-takes-all" silicon valley of Europe, think in terms of a strong network of neurons, all being equally required for the brain to function. As for London/UK one would only hope that sooner rather than later it will rejoin the European project as an indispensable additional node.

latte 5y ago

As someone from outside the EU, I had to go through the bureaucratic hassle described in the article to get into the UK. After Brexit, the visa requirements were somewhat relaxed in comparison to what they had been for non-EU citizens. For example, previously to hire a non-EU citizen, an employer had to advertise the vacancy on the market for a certain amount of time to 'prove' that they cannot fill it with an EU citizen. Now this requirement, if I remember correctly, has been abolished. I am against Brexit for a number of reasons, but the differences in immigration rules for different people were too heavily affected by the 20th century war alliances, which have thoroughly influenced the current shape and composition of the EU. I am glad that the playing ground is now somewhat more even.

ghostwriter 5y ago

The mentioned "five figures" fees and the language test are peanuts. The journalists are missing the point and do not see that major industries that feed IT sector with new opportunities and contracts (such as entertainment and construction) have already made their mind and have chosen Greater London over EU cities as their primary european hub [1] [2]. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aqydTPDKQ44 [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNXotuREZQ4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNXotuREZQ4