14 ms·

I wish a person could order one of these without the numeric keypad. I deeply hate being off-center to the screen when typing on these larger portables.

loudtieblahblah 5y ago
i deeply hate being without a numpad. I understand it's duplicated space, but typing numbers on a numpad is just a million times faster than going above the alphabet keys.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  is it? I don't think it's any slower than typing other characters.
  - baron_harkonnen 5y ago
    I haven't had a full keyboard with a numpad in years, but if you ever worked in any data entry job in your career and learned to properly touch type on the numpad it is wildly faster than touch typing with the regular keyboard and needing to use two hands to reach all of the numbers. I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is why there is such a divide.
    - wott 5y ago
      > I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is why there is such a divide. Ah? I would have thought the opposite. I cannot touch-type at all (and you could promise me a million dollars reward, I still wouldn't manage), nevertheless there is one part of the keyboard I can use without looking, and it is the numpad. Possibly because it is a limited area with a limited number of keys, and the numbers are placed in a "logical" order (compared to letters on the main part of a keyboard). I am bad at entering numbers on the top row, a I am forced to do on most laptops (and unfortunately, I personally find the pseudo-numpad, which requires using the Fn key or similar, utterly unusable; I never could get used to it).
  - somethingwitty1 5y ago
    I did data entry for a job. In my experience, the numpad was considerably faster and accurate. It has been a long time, but I recall it cutting down entry time by ~5-6x (yes, I finished my daily quota in about an hour or two, instead of all day). The advantage was being able to use multiple fingers comfortably, without looking (there is a nice nub on most numpads) and leaving a hand free for letters/tabs. But like anything, I'm sure there are people that would have a different experience.
    - Aperocky 5y ago
      Interesting, though data entry feels like something that should have been automated (even if source is paper).
      - somethingwitty1 5y ago
        You'd be amazed how much cheaper it is to have a human do it than pay for automation. But also, law/contract required the data to be accurate (so there were 3 people, at minimum, entering the exact same data and records would be flagged if any of the 3 did not match). OCR, at the time (and even now), is highly unreliable with human handwriting. Not that I disagree with your statement, automation would have been nice. And though I like to think we want humans doing higher-level things, a lot of the people there were happy to get decent pay and not have to think for their day job.
- protomyth 5y ago
  I guess I spend much more time doing regular typing and being off-center really makes it painful (old HP laptop). I did buy a wireless numeric keypad at one time that had some extra keys and arrows that made data entry really fast.
- scintill76 5y ago
  How many digits long does it have to be to pay for the time to move your hand to the numpad and back?
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    About 4 digits IMO. The "5" key on most numpads has a bump so I can reach it without even looking at a keyboard I'm familiar with. Any 4-digit security pin I use is entered from numpads. I always buy a laptop with a numpad. Its my preferred method of typing numbers. There are also a whole slew of video game applications, as well as Blender movement (camera angles, camera movement, etc. etc.) that's highly intuitively mapped to the numpad. ------ I should note that when I was practicing for the video-game community "Blazblue", all movements were discussed in terms of numpad. 236 is quarter-circle forward. 69874123 is "360-degree circle, counterclockwise, starting with right". Needless to say, typing a combo such as 5b 5c 2d 28d 28 b c b 8 b c 236c 2d was much easier with a numpad. Anyone who wants to "decode" the button pushes only needs to look at their numpad to see how their left-hand should move, with "b, c, d" being the keywords for the right-hand buttons in Blazblue. Street Fighter players use lp, mp, hp (light punch, medium punch, heavy punch) instead. So those bits get game specific, but the numpad approach to discussion is basically considered superior.
    - flemhans 5y ago
      The bump may be ok for new keyboards you didn't try before but quickly become irrelevant after a few days. You know where the keys are then.
      - dragontamer 5y ago
        I disagree. The bump on the j-key on the keyboard, and the 5-key on the numpad is very much clear to high-speed typing. On keyboards without bumps, I find myself off-aligned. Instead of typing "jumping jellyfish", I type "hynoubg hekktfusg", and have to realign my hands. Could I do it without the bump? Probably. But having the bump there (both the j-bump and the 5 bump) is very useful at preventing this mistake.
    - 5y ago
- raffraffraff 5y ago
  If you work in a bank, entering deposits and withdrawals all day. Or a shop that doesn't have a barcode reader. Or if you're an accountant. I suppose you could also argue for a special programmer's pad too. I mean, I play the odd FPS and I'm still happy with WASD so I'm definitely not gonna understand.
  - xxs 5y ago
    ...or if you are use it for navigation, along with enter. I never use the numlock but I do use the numpad.
- aendruk 5y ago
  A virtual numpad via a modifier key can be the best of both worlds; no extra space is used and your hands stay in the center. Example with image: https://andrew.kvalhe.im/2021-03-19 https://andrew.kvalhe.im/2021-03-19 With this method you can customize the location and surrounding mathematical operators.
  - nyanpasu64 5y ago
    In my limited beginner experience (rarely use numpads, mostly in Blender, or virtual numpads), it's awkward to turn virtual numpads on and off, I keep forgetting which state the keyboard is in, and it's hard to read the grayed-out key labels to figure out which normal key maps to the numpad key I want.
  - admax88qqq 5y ago
    Sort of. But it's not ortholinear like most numpads and lacks the addition keys like a big Enter key, and the various math operations. It's an impoverished numpad that requires different muscle memory that you probably don't use often enough to master. Personally I never use the virtual numpad on my devices, I use the full numpad if available or I usr the top row of number keys.
- andrepd 5y ago
  You can get a cheap external numpad.
- xxs 5y ago
  actually i use the numpad for arrows (and virtually dont need a mouse in a decent IDE, once I reprogram the shortcuts). I don't recall having a numpad lacking keyboard and a laptop in the last 15y+.
vzaliva 5y ago
They definetely need such option for people like me. For me, wasting such a big chunk of my keyboard for keys I never use is a no-go.
nawgz 5y ago
As someone who just ordered a 60% and found themself amazed at how usable it was - even missing classic keys like the arrow keys - I also can't believe they would go for numpad. Very oldschool for such a modern product.
- lupire 5y ago
  It's not a modern product on the hardware side. System76 hardware is generic Clevo kit.
1MachineElf 5y ago
Agreed. The least they could do, if a numpad really is necessary, is put something of equal size on the left side. A macro pad would be novel, or even just a left numpad so that right-hand mouse users could enter numbers at the same time.
- smegger001 5y ago
  i wonder if splitting the alphabet portion of the keyboard down the middle and putting the numpad in between would work. It would look like some unholy abomination but may be more ergonmoic
  - bartvk 5y ago
    I actually have this setup on my desk. Meaning, I have a Kinesis Freestyle 2 (split keyboard) and in between, there’s an Apple trackpad.
- reaperducer 5y ago
  They could do what Apple did 20 years ago: Make them modular. You used to be able to pop the trackball out from the right side of the keyboard area, slide the keys to the right, and then re-insert the trackball into the left side. Do the same with a num pad, instead of a trackball. And for people who don't want the num pad, make available half-width blank inserts to occupy the space on both sides.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    IIRC that original Macintosh Portable even had a numpad as an alternative to the trackball, to go on whichever side you wanted (and presumably you'd connect a mouse to use in stead of the trackball).
nostrademons 5y ago
I have a 2013 Pangolin and the keypad & touchpad are the worst parts. They're decent machines otherwise, but the off-center keyboard and touchpad with no tactile feedback make it very hard to navigate around the interface. Looks like they might've fixed the touchpad at least in this reboot.
johnzim 5y ago
I have no idea who thought this was a good idea. The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it. I'm not a fan of symmetry for symmetry's sake, but I do think some affordances for the human body might be a good idea. How do southpaws enjoy this keyboard setup? The ergonomics of laptops are bad enough without stuff like this.
- yumraj 5y ago
  >The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it. Yes, that is the first thing I notice. Any laptop with an off-center trackpad goes in the do-not-buy list.
  - unicornporn 5y ago
    Same here. Saw the lead image with and immediately thought: no buy. No fancy specs in the world can make me accept bad ergonomics.
    - lincolnq 5y ago
      I’d expect that the ergo costs of using a laptop at all (short key travel, screen down from eye level) would swamp the additional cost of having the keyboard off center. After all, you can just crane your neck down and sideways instead of just down :). Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work (who cares about ergo) should invest in an external keyboard and monitor.
      - yumraj 5y ago
        > Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work (who cares about ergo) should invest in an external keyboard and monitor. FWIW, I’ve been using a 15” MBP as my primary dev/work machine for over a decade and I’ve just become used to it. Tried external monitor, keyboard a few times, but it just doesn’t work for me anymore. I mostly run in high res mode, as opposed to the scaled default mode and it works well. This is also why the 13” laptops are not an option for me, am eagerly waiting for the 16” MBP fingers crossed.
superbaconman 5y ago
I use a tenkeyless on my desktop for exactly this reason. I could always shift a normal keyboard over to center it, but then my mouse is way off to the side.
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  if you put a trackpad to the left, the keyboard centers!
83457 5y ago
I used to use keypad all the time so when I got first laptop for work having one was my preference. I regretted that decision as the keyboard was more narrow than it otherwise needed to be. On a side note, I love the CM Storm Quick Fire TK keyboard I have with brown switches. It has no arrow/home vertical area, instead when you turn the numpad off the keys act like that slice. I wish more keyboards were like it. Not sure why they aren't.
- LocalPCGuy 5y ago
  To your last point, I really think the vast majority of users do not understand what slices on keyboards are, much less how to use them.
baron_harkonnen 5y ago
I'm curious do you touch type, and, if so do you also touch type on the numpad? I suspect the divide here is between people that are touch typists w/ experience in numeric data entry and people who still need to look at the physical keyboard to type. As a touch typist I've never particularly cared where the keyboard is, and while I haven't used a numeric keypad in years, I still miss having one.
ohazi 5y ago
I switched from Lenovo's 15" T-series to their 14" models because of the goddamn numpad. I guess now I could look at the X1 extreme, because that has a 15"/16" display and no numpad.
p1necone 5y ago
I can't bear the thought of being forced to play roguelikes suboptimally.
aidenn0 5y ago
My wish for a laptop is one with the trackpad above the keyboard instead of below and the keyboard at the bottom edge of the case. I really don't like wrist-wrests on keyboards, but with a laptop, I have no choice.
- petepete 5y ago
  The only laptops I know with the keyboard at the front of the base are a couple of Asus models, the Zephyrus and the Zenbook. Both have the touchpad to the right of the keyboard and a second screen above. Definitely an acquired taste and not the most portable of devices.
lupire 5y ago
The trick is to put a sidebar window on the right ao the keyboard feels centered. How often do you type into a full screen window?
sasavilic 5y ago
I too hate numeric keypad and being off-center. Especially when you need to keep notebook on lap. But it is really hard to find notebook without numpad these days. Especially hard if it needs to work with linux out of the box.
throwaway9980 5y ago
It's oh so terrible isn't it? I feel like this is one of those flexible majority things that Nassim Taleb talks about [1]. The vast majority of people don't care one way or the other. There is a small minority who wants the numeric keypad and an even smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will never buy a laptop that includes one. For me, it's always been yet another selling point for the Macbook. [1] https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- throwaway-jim 5y ago
  The trackpad is not centered. I'm the small minority that won't touch a laptop with an off centered trackpad. It's very uncomfortable for me as I use my right hand. Ideally manufacturers should make a large touch screen/surface that covers the entire area below the keyboard. We have the technology, it can be done.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Asus (IIRC) did that a year or three ago. EDIT: Except the secondary screen is above the keyboard: https://www.asus.com/Laptops/For-Home/ZenBook/ZenBook-Duo-14-UX482/ https://www.asus.com/Laptops/For-Home/ZenBook/ZenBook-Duo-14...
- clipradiowallet 5y ago
  > smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will never buy a laptop that includes one I'm in this minority! Why don't people use the top-row numbers!?!?
  - syshum 5y ago
    I would prefer a keyboard with out the Top row of numbers. Those are pretty much useless. So much so that I often use AHK to remap the top number row to be other functions.
    - 5y ago
baktubi 5y ago
What! I can’t imagine using a keyboard without a numpad. Any numerical entry is wayyyy easier using numpad!
jiggawatts 5y ago
You interact with a computer only through the screen, speakers, microphone, and keyboard. So of course, the advertisement for every laptop emphasises internal component metrics that don't actually matter that much. "Now with X8-7820Z SUPER!" or whatever. Instead they have terrible screens, tinny speakers, noisy microphones, and non-customisable keyboard layouts. The latter of which are always cramped, and I mean always, even on 17" laptops. Do you have any idea how cheap it would be for these manufacturers to allow you to choose your keyboard layout? It's a removable tray already! They can be swapped out in seconds! There are multiple keyboard layouts available from the parts manufacturers! Can you order such a thing? No.
- Haegin 5y ago
  I believe the Framework Laptop offers that, though it's very new and the non US keyboard options are available yet. They're aiming for a pretty decent list by end of year including UK, French, Chinese, Korean, German and blank (both ANSI and ISO). https://frame.work https://frame.work (I'm in no way affiliated, just eyeing them up for my next laptop purchase)
  - aorth 5y ago
    I'm in no way affiliated with Framework either. Just saw it mentioned few times in tech press recently. Finally watched some video reviews today and have to say I'm very impressed. Definitely eyeing them as a replacement when my ThinkPad turns four years old next year.
TrispusAttucks 5y ago
Totally Agree. This is really unfortunate unless they are going hard for the "Accountant" demographic. * FWIW: Typing this on a System 76 machine with a [1] TKL mechanical keyboard. [1] TKL / Tenkeyless - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/tenkeyless https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/tenke...
maple3142 5y ago
I really hate using laptop without numpad because there are 9 digits in my email address. It is much faster to enter it using a numpad.
- sam0x17 5y ago
  Can't you just use the top row? I type numbers much faster with top row than numpad. As a result I never touch the numpad.
  - maple3142 5y ago
    The digits in my email are "741852963", which is much easier to type on a numpad compared to top row. IIRC, I used a numpad to type those digits when I registered my email.
forgotmypw17 5y ago
Every laptop keyboard sucks in its own way. Only the external standard layout will really do for look-free pressing of all the useful keys. So I stopped expecting anything beyond a couple minutes out of laptop keyboards and always carry a standard-enough 104-key. I first began this practice when I had a laptop with a few missing keys, but soon I realized how much better an external keyboard is, and how little extra weight it adds to my bag.
LocalPCGuy 5y ago
I will never buy another laptop with a "short" right-shift key and the up-arrow next to it. For coding, it SUCKS to miss hit that and I never got use to it on the one laptop I've had with a keyboard like that.
- occoder 5y ago
  I must admit that I've never used such a keyboard before, but it seems better to me than half-height arrow keys, or heaven forbid, half-height Up and Down arrows but full-height Left and Right arrows, what an abomination! What I don't understand, if they're going to include a numeric keypad on the right, is why they didn't make the bottom of the numeric keypad the arrow keys. Looking at [1], 2 should be Up, 0 should be Down, Right should be Left, . should be Right. So Num Lock should be Insert, 7 should be Delete, / should be Home, 8 should be End, * should be PageUp, 9 should be PageDown. I'd imagine that most techies use the arrow keys and Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys a lot more than the numeric keys, why not make that the primary layout, and be numeric keys only when Num Lock is on? Am I crazy? Or does nobody give keyboards one ounce of thought ever? [1] https://images.prismic.io/system76/0dccf217-22af-4e7e-adc9-e8d45578c43a_keyboard-off.png?auto=compress,format https://images.prismic.io/system76/0dccf217-22af-4e7e-adc9-e...
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Why on earth should they make the numpad keys double as arrow keys?!? Then you couldn't navigate and enter numbers in, say, a spreadsheet without futzing around with NumLock all the time! Utterly ridiculous idea. That keyboard in your pic looks pretty perfect as it is.
    - occoder 5y ago
      I hate to break it to you, but the numeric keys already double as arrow keys on that "perfect" keyboard. Besides, this is a laptop running Linux, what do you think is the more likely target audience? People entering numbers in a spreadsheet, or people doing software development? Most of the comments here are people complaining that the numeric keypad is there at all.
reirob 5y ago
Absolutely agree, to a point that I don't even know which laptop to buy - almost all 15 inch have no centred keyboard. I don't understand how touch typers can work with these. I tried for a few days. What a nightmare.
- istingray 5y ago
  Ya same here. Made my decision to purchase a System76 Lemur Pro pretty easy though, as that was the only model at the time with a centered keyboard and trackpad.

loudtieblahblah 5y ago

i deeply hate being without a numpad. I understand it's duplicated space, but typing numbers on a numpad is just a million times faster than going above the alphabet keys.

Aperocky 5y ago
is it? I don't think it's any slower than typing other characters.
- baron_harkonnen 5y ago
  I haven't had a full keyboard with a numpad in years, but if you ever worked in any data entry job in your career and learned to properly touch type on the numpad it is wildly faster than touch typing with the regular keyboard and needing to use two hands to reach all of the numbers. I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is why there is such a divide.
  - wott 5y ago
    > I suspect the utility of a numpad is increased while the off center problems are decreased for touchtypers which is why there is such a divide. Ah? I would have thought the opposite. I cannot touch-type at all (and you could promise me a million dollars reward, I still wouldn't manage), nevertheless there is one part of the keyboard I can use without looking, and it is the numpad. Possibly because it is a limited area with a limited number of keys, and the numbers are placed in a "logical" order (compared to letters on the main part of a keyboard). I am bad at entering numbers on the top row, a I am forced to do on most laptops (and unfortunately, I personally find the pseudo-numpad, which requires using the Fn key or similar, utterly unusable; I never could get used to it).
- somethingwitty1 5y ago
  I did data entry for a job. In my experience, the numpad was considerably faster and accurate. It has been a long time, but I recall it cutting down entry time by ~5-6x (yes, I finished my daily quota in about an hour or two, instead of all day). The advantage was being able to use multiple fingers comfortably, without looking (there is a nice nub on most numpads) and leaving a hand free for letters/tabs. But like anything, I'm sure there are people that would have a different experience.
  - Aperocky 5y ago
    Interesting, though data entry feels like something that should have been automated (even if source is paper).
    - somethingwitty1 5y ago
      You'd be amazed how much cheaper it is to have a human do it than pay for automation. But also, law/contract required the data to be accurate (so there were 3 people, at minimum, entering the exact same data and records would be flagged if any of the 3 did not match). OCR, at the time (and even now), is highly unreliable with human handwriting. Not that I disagree with your statement, automation would have been nice. And though I like to think we want humans doing higher-level things, a lot of the people there were happy to get decent pay and not have to think for their day job.
protomyth 5y ago
I guess I spend much more time doing regular typing and being off-center really makes it painful (old HP laptop). I did buy a wireless numeric keypad at one time that had some extra keys and arrows that made data entry really fast.
scintill76 5y ago
How many digits long does it have to be to pay for the time to move your hand to the numpad and back?
- dragontamer 5y ago
  About 4 digits IMO. The "5" key on most numpads has a bump so I can reach it without even looking at a keyboard I'm familiar with. Any 4-digit security pin I use is entered from numpads. I always buy a laptop with a numpad. Its my preferred method of typing numbers. There are also a whole slew of video game applications, as well as Blender movement (camera angles, camera movement, etc. etc.) that's highly intuitively mapped to the numpad. ------ I should note that when I was practicing for the video-game community "Blazblue", all movements were discussed in terms of numpad. 236 is quarter-circle forward. 69874123 is "360-degree circle, counterclockwise, starting with right". Needless to say, typing a combo such as 5b 5c 2d 28d 28 b c b 8 b c 236c 2d was much easier with a numpad. Anyone who wants to "decode" the button pushes only needs to look at their numpad to see how their left-hand should move, with "b, c, d" being the keywords for the right-hand buttons in Blazblue. Street Fighter players use lp, mp, hp (light punch, medium punch, heavy punch) instead. So those bits get game specific, but the numpad approach to discussion is basically considered superior.
  - flemhans 5y ago
    The bump may be ok for new keyboards you didn't try before but quickly become irrelevant after a few days. You know where the keys are then.
    - dragontamer 5y ago
      I disagree. The bump on the j-key on the keyboard, and the 5-key on the numpad is very much clear to high-speed typing. On keyboards without bumps, I find myself off-aligned. Instead of typing "jumping jellyfish", I type "hynoubg hekktfusg", and have to realign my hands. Could I do it without the bump? Probably. But having the bump there (both the j-bump and the 5 bump) is very useful at preventing this mistake.
  - 5y ago
raffraffraff 5y ago
If you work in a bank, entering deposits and withdrawals all day. Or a shop that doesn't have a barcode reader. Or if you're an accountant. I suppose you could also argue for a special programmer's pad too. I mean, I play the odd FPS and I'm still happy with WASD so I'm definitely not gonna understand.
- xxs 5y ago
  ...or if you are use it for navigation, along with enter. I never use the numlock but I do use the numpad.
aendruk 5y ago
A virtual numpad via a modifier key can be the best of both worlds; no extra space is used and your hands stay in the center. Example with image: https://andrew.kvalhe.im/2021-03-19 https://andrew.kvalhe.im/2021-03-19 With this method you can customize the location and surrounding mathematical operators.
- nyanpasu64 5y ago
  In my limited beginner experience (rarely use numpads, mostly in Blender, or virtual numpads), it's awkward to turn virtual numpads on and off, I keep forgetting which state the keyboard is in, and it's hard to read the grayed-out key labels to figure out which normal key maps to the numpad key I want.
- admax88qqq 5y ago
  Sort of. But it's not ortholinear like most numpads and lacks the addition keys like a big Enter key, and the various math operations. It's an impoverished numpad that requires different muscle memory that you probably don't use often enough to master. Personally I never use the virtual numpad on my devices, I use the full numpad if available or I usr the top row of number keys.
andrepd 5y ago
You can get a cheap external numpad.
xxs 5y ago
actually i use the numpad for arrows (and virtually dont need a mouse in a decent IDE, once I reprogram the shortcuts). I don't recall having a numpad lacking keyboard and a laptop in the last 15y+.

vzaliva 5y ago

They definetely need such option for people like me. For me, wasting such a big chunk of my keyboard for keys I never use is a no-go.

nawgz 5y ago

As someone who just ordered a 60% and found themself amazed at how usable it was - even missing classic keys like the arrow keys - I also can't believe they would go for numpad. Very oldschool for such a modern product.

lupire 5y ago
It's not a modern product on the hardware side. System76 hardware is generic Clevo kit.

1MachineElf 5y ago

Agreed. The least they could do, if a numpad really is necessary, is put something of equal size on the left side. A macro pad would be novel, or even just a left numpad so that right-hand mouse users could enter numbers at the same time.

smegger001 5y ago
i wonder if splitting the alphabet portion of the keyboard down the middle and putting the numpad in between would work. It would look like some unholy abomination but may be more ergonmoic
- bartvk 5y ago
  I actually have this setup on my desk. Meaning, I have a Kinesis Freestyle 2 (split keyboard) and in between, there’s an Apple trackpad.
reaperducer 5y ago
They could do what Apple did 20 years ago: Make them modular. You used to be able to pop the trackball out from the right side of the keyboard area, slide the keys to the right, and then re-insert the trackball into the left side. Do the same with a num pad, instead of a trackball. And for people who don't want the num pad, make available half-width blank inserts to occupy the space on both sides.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  IIRC that original Macintosh Portable even had a numpad as an alternative to the trackball, to go on whichever side you wanted (and presumably you'd connect a mouse to use in stead of the trackball).

nostrademons 5y ago

I have a 2013 Pangolin and the keypad & touchpad are the worst parts. They're decent machines otherwise, but the off-center keyboard and touchpad with no tactile feedback make it very hard to navigate around the interface. Looks like they might've fixed the touchpad at least in this reboot.

johnzim 5y ago

I have no idea who thought this was a good idea. The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it. I'm not a fan of symmetry for symmetry's sake, but I do think some affordances for the human body might be a good idea. How do southpaws enjoy this keyboard setup? The ergonomics of laptops are bad enough without stuff like this.

yumraj 5y ago
>The trackpad is even off to the left to accommodate it. Yes, that is the first thing I notice. Any laptop with an off-center trackpad goes in the do-not-buy list.
- unicornporn 5y ago
  Same here. Saw the lead image with and immediately thought: no buy. No fancy specs in the world can make me accept bad ergonomics.
  - lincolnq 5y ago
    I’d expect that the ergo costs of using a laptop at all (short key travel, screen down from eye level) would swamp the additional cost of having the keyboard off center. After all, you can just crane your neck down and sideways instead of just down :). Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work (who cares about ergo) should invest in an external keyboard and monitor.
    - yumraj 5y ago
      > Seriously, anyone using a laptop full time for work (who cares about ergo) should invest in an external keyboard and monitor. FWIW, I’ve been using a 15” MBP as my primary dev/work machine for over a decade and I’ve just become used to it. Tried external monitor, keyboard a few times, but it just doesn’t work for me anymore. I mostly run in high res mode, as opposed to the scaled default mode and it works well. This is also why the 13” laptops are not an option for me, am eagerly waiting for the 16” MBP fingers crossed.

superbaconman 5y ago

I use a tenkeyless on my desktop for exactly this reason. I could always shift a normal keyboard over to center it, but then my mouse is way off to the side.

jjtheblunt 5y ago
if you put a trackpad to the left, the keyboard centers!

83457 5y ago

I used to use keypad all the time so when I got first laptop for work having one was my preference. I regretted that decision as the keyboard was more narrow than it otherwise needed to be. On a side note, I love the CM Storm Quick Fire TK keyboard I have with brown switches. It has no arrow/home vertical area, instead when you turn the numpad off the keys act like that slice. I wish more keyboards were like it. Not sure why they aren't.

LocalPCGuy 5y ago
To your last point, I really think the vast majority of users do not understand what slices on keyboards are, much less how to use them.

baron_harkonnen 5y ago

I'm curious do you touch type, and, if so do you also touch type on the numpad? I suspect the divide here is between people that are touch typists w/ experience in numeric data entry and people who still need to look at the physical keyboard to type. As a touch typist I've never particularly cared where the keyboard is, and while I haven't used a numeric keypad in years, I still miss having one.

ohazi 5y ago

I switched from Lenovo's 15" T-series to their 14" models because of the goddamn numpad. I guess now I could look at the X1 extreme, because that has a 15"/16" display and no numpad.

p1necone 5y ago

I can't bear the thought of being forced to play roguelikes suboptimally.

aidenn0 5y ago

My wish for a laptop is one with the trackpad above the keyboard instead of below and the keyboard at the bottom edge of the case. I really don't like wrist-wrests on keyboards, but with a laptop, I have no choice.

petepete 5y ago
The only laptops I know with the keyboard at the front of the base are a couple of Asus models, the Zephyrus and the Zenbook. Both have the touchpad to the right of the keyboard and a second screen above. Definitely an acquired taste and not the most portable of devices.

lupire 5y ago

The trick is to put a sidebar window on the right ao the keyboard feels centered. How often do you type into a full screen window?

sasavilic 5y ago

I too hate numeric keypad and being off-center. Especially when you need to keep notebook on lap. But it is really hard to find notebook without numpad these days. Especially hard if it needs to work with linux out of the box.

throwaway9980 5y ago

It's oh so terrible isn't it? I feel like this is one of those flexible majority things that Nassim Taleb talks about [1]. The vast majority of people don't care one way or the other. There is a small minority who wants the numeric keypad and an even smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will never buy a laptop that includes one. For me, it's always been yet another selling point for the Macbook. [1] https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...

throwaway-jim 5y ago
The trackpad is not centered. I'm the small minority that won't touch a laptop with an off centered trackpad. It's very uncomfortable for me as I use my right hand. Ideally manufacturers should make a large touch screen/surface that covers the entire area below the keyboard. We have the technology, it can be done.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Asus (IIRC) did that a year or three ago. EDIT: Except the secondary screen is above the keyboard: https://www.asus.com/Laptops/For-Home/ZenBook/ZenBook-Duo-14-UX482/ https://www.asus.com/Laptops/For-Home/ZenBook/ZenBook-Duo-14...
clipradiowallet 5y ago
> smaller minority that despises the numeric keypad and will never buy a laptop that includes one I'm in this minority! Why don't people use the top-row numbers!?!?
- syshum 5y ago
  I would prefer a keyboard with out the Top row of numbers. Those are pretty much useless. So much so that I often use AHK to remap the top number row to be other functions.
  - 5y ago

baktubi 5y ago

What! I can’t imagine using a keyboard without a numpad. Any numerical entry is wayyyy easier using numpad!

jiggawatts 5y ago

You interact with a computer only through the screen, speakers, microphone, and keyboard. So of course, the advertisement for every laptop emphasises internal component metrics that don't actually matter that much. "Now with X8-7820Z SUPER!" or whatever. Instead they have terrible screens, tinny speakers, noisy microphones, and non-customisable keyboard layouts. The latter of which are always cramped, and I mean always, even on 17" laptops. Do you have any idea how cheap it would be for these manufacturers to allow you to choose your keyboard layout? It's a removable tray already! They can be swapped out in seconds! There are multiple keyboard layouts available from the parts manufacturers! Can you order such a thing? No.

Haegin 5y ago
I believe the Framework Laptop offers that, though it's very new and the non US keyboard options are available yet. They're aiming for a pretty decent list by end of year including UK, French, Chinese, Korean, German and blank (both ANSI and ISO). https://frame.work https://frame.work (I'm in no way affiliated, just eyeing them up for my next laptop purchase)
- aorth 5y ago
  I'm in no way affiliated with Framework either. Just saw it mentioned few times in tech press recently. Finally watched some video reviews today and have to say I'm very impressed. Definitely eyeing them as a replacement when my ThinkPad turns four years old next year.

TrispusAttucks 5y ago

Totally Agree. This is really unfortunate unless they are going hard for the "Accountant" demographic. * FWIW: Typing this on a System 76 machine with a [1] TKL mechanical keyboard. [1] TKL / Tenkeyless - https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/tenkeyless https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/tenke...

maple3142 5y ago

I really hate using laptop without numpad because there are 9 digits in my email address. It is much faster to enter it using a numpad.

sam0x17 5y ago
Can't you just use the top row? I type numbers much faster with top row than numpad. As a result I never touch the numpad.
- maple3142 5y ago
  The digits in my email are "741852963", which is much easier to type on a numpad compared to top row. IIRC, I used a numpad to type those digits when I registered my email.

forgotmypw17 5y ago

Every laptop keyboard sucks in its own way. Only the external standard layout will really do for look-free pressing of all the useful keys. So I stopped expecting anything beyond a couple minutes out of laptop keyboards and always carry a standard-enough 104-key. I first began this practice when I had a laptop with a few missing keys, but soon I realized how much better an external keyboard is, and how little extra weight it adds to my bag.

LocalPCGuy 5y ago

I will never buy another laptop with a "short" right-shift key and the up-arrow next to it. For coding, it SUCKS to miss hit that and I never got use to it on the one laptop I've had with a keyboard like that.

occoder 5y ago
I must admit that I've never used such a keyboard before, but it seems better to me than half-height arrow keys, or heaven forbid, half-height Up and Down arrows but full-height Left and Right arrows, what an abomination! What I don't understand, if they're going to include a numeric keypad on the right, is why they didn't make the bottom of the numeric keypad the arrow keys. Looking at [1], 2 should be Up, 0 should be Down, Right should be Left, . should be Right. So Num Lock should be Insert, 7 should be Delete, / should be Home, 8 should be End, * should be PageUp, 9 should be PageDown. I'd imagine that most techies use the arrow keys and Home/End/PageUp/PageDown keys a lot more than the numeric keys, why not make that the primary layout, and be numeric keys only when Num Lock is on? Am I crazy? Or does nobody give keyboards one ounce of thought ever? [1] https://images.prismic.io/system76/0dccf217-22af-4e7e-adc9-e8d45578c43a_keyboard-off.png?auto=compress,format https://images.prismic.io/system76/0dccf217-22af-4e7e-adc9-e...
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Why on earth should they make the numpad keys double as arrow keys?!? Then you couldn't navigate and enter numbers in, say, a spreadsheet without futzing around with NumLock all the time! Utterly ridiculous idea. That keyboard in your pic looks pretty perfect as it is.
  - occoder 5y ago
    I hate to break it to you, but the numeric keys already double as arrow keys on that "perfect" keyboard. Besides, this is a laptop running Linux, what do you think is the more likely target audience? People entering numbers in a spreadsheet, or people doing software development? Most of the comments here are people complaining that the numeric keypad is there at all.

reirob 5y ago

Absolutely agree, to a point that I don't even know which laptop to buy - almost all 15 inch have no centred keyboard. I don't understand how touch typers can work with these. I tried for a few days. What a nightmare.

istingray 5y ago
Ya same here. Made my decision to purchase a System76 Lemur Pro pretty easy though, as that was the only model at the time with a centered keyboard and trackpad.