15 ms·

White House Launches US Digital Corps

160 points by elsewhen 5y ago

hanniabu 5y ago
Unless they pay market price, they aren't going to get the talent they need to make a return on this investment
- plandis 5y ago
  Plus these people straight out of college need mentorship but the best mentors are likely off in industry.
  - diskzero 5y ago
    I also have concerns about the quality of the mentorship based on my earlier experiences. There are high quality mentors to be found, but I agree with you that the ratios are way off compared to the private sector.
MattGaiser 5y ago
Realistically, governments need to adjust to market pay to make a difference here. I am a former public servant. I earn after 2 years of experience what they paid people with 6. And I don’t work for a FAANG or even a decently funded VC firm, but am guessing that I am now significantly underpaid (initially signed up for it for interesting work, but that went away so fixing that presently). And I live in Canada, where salaries are already compressed. That working at a not well paying startup can rapidly outpace the government is a huge problem for digital infrastructure.
- diskzero 5y ago
  The initial hires at the US Digital Service all came in at GS-15, level 10. At least, that is what I was offered. It was the only way they could be remotely competitive. I notice that this new program is using only new grads and boot camp graduates. One reason is that they are no longer able to get the special dispensations to offer the high GS ratings.
  - firloop 5y ago
    https://www.generalschedule.org/GS-15 https://www.generalschedule.org/GS-15 According to this site, GS-15 10 is $143,598.00/year (I was curious and I figured others here would be too)
    - ghancock 5y ago
      That number does not include locality adjustment.
    - metaphor 5y ago
      Nope[1], e.g. DC locality is capped by statute to $175.2k base at Step 7. [1] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2021/general-schedule/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...
  - jeffgreco 5y ago
    This isn’t a replacement for USDS though, it’s a companion program. And it appears USDS is still actively recruiting.
    - wslack 5y ago
      Correct! (I work at USDS, am commenting here just personally to shed light where I can).
  - GeneralMayhem 5y ago
    Right, but this is still the problem. Even GS-15 L10 is barely competitive with starting new-grad salaries at FAANG, and USDS is trying to pull experienced people. USDS has the whole short-term tour/prestige going for it, though, so they can plausibly get people to take a temporary pay cut as an act of public service.
    - diskzero 5y ago
      I totally agree with you. The first wave of USDS hires were highly motivated to refactor/repair/replace the ACA infrastructure. Most came from much higher paying jobs in Silicon Valley. I doubt the same levels of motivation and excitement are still there, but I could be wrong. There was also a lot of political will and pressure that made those early USDS tasks remotely possible. Without that pressure, I imagine the vendors and the bureaucracy, which was barely tolerable a decade ago, would not be tolerated by most highly qualified candidates.
- onion2k 5y ago
  The scheme isn't designed to compete with industry. This is more like an internship than a real job. People will do it because they believe it looks good on their resumes. They'll be working with the people who develop government digital infrastructure - those people are often paid quite well, because they're contractors and high level government workers.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > I earn after 2 years of experience what they paid people with 6. Is it wrong for me to think that those numbers shouldn't be super far apart?
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    Shouldn't there be a big junior to senior jump? As it stands, they are the same. 80K each.
- ffggvv 5y ago
  they’re just going to give it to diversity applicants to give them free resume material at the public expense
- paxys 5y ago
  The government doesn't directly compete with the private sector in any industry, and that is especially unlikely to happen in tech. Promotions/bonuses based on performance, large equity grants, frequent job hopping – all are the exact opposite of how the government works.
diskzero 5y ago
This seems like a good idea, but an initial cohort of only thirty? I suppose some is better than none, but that is much smaller number than I would expect.
- pimlottc 5y ago
  Start small and iterate.
supperburg 5y ago
I wanted to do an interview with a Taliban spokesman and publish it because i was frustrated with the lopsided narrative of the early coverage of the Taliban surge. It wasn’t until much later that they started publishing interviews with Taliban representatives and you can be sure that those were mostly sliced up with a bunch of important stuff deliberately left out in order to distort the truth. Typical mainstream media stuff. Anyway, I reached out to someone electronically to see if they knew how I might get in contact with a representative. I found myself worrying about triggering surveillance on myself when the NSA intercepted that. Who knows how it works and where the threshold is for them to start monitoring you a bit more closely than everyone else? I started becoming upset about it and the possibilities of the government run amok. It doesn’t bother you until you feel that it’s your well-being that’s impacted. And I always knew intellectually that nothing was going to happen. But it made me realize that our government is 100% out of fucking control. It’s completely unacceptable.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Your idea of a government out of control is the government monitoring communications of the declared enemies of the USA?
  - supperburg 5y ago
    I have never made communications with an enemy of the US, so no.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - stillblue 5y ago
    Read his comment again.
MarkSweep 5y ago
Not to be confused with the United States Digital Service, which was started in the Obama administration. If I understand correctly, this new USDC program is for early career people, while the older USDS program is for experienced people. They are similar in that both of them have a limited time duration (2 years for USDC, up to 4 years for USDS). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Digital_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Digital_Service
- dataflow 5y ago
  Do you know why USDS's executive office is vacant?
  - Jtsummers 5y ago
    Following a couple links: > When I joined USDS in 2016, I came with an outsider’s perspective, technical skills, and desire to use my talents for good. I thought I would serve for just three to six months. More than four years later, at the end of this month, my service at USDS will end. When technologists join USDS, they sign up for a limited tour of duty. I am no different, and it is my time to step down. I’m so grateful to have been a part of this team. And I am enormously proud of everything our team has accomplished across two Administrations. [emphasis added] From: https://medium.com/the-u-s-digital-service/the-next-chapter-for-usds-2eb6955065f3 https://medium.com/the-u-s-digital-service/the-next-chapter-...
    - dataflow 5y ago
      I guess I was asking "why hasn't it been filled", not "why did the previous person leave".
      - iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
        I don’t know exactly why the Biden admin hasn’t filled it yet, but the Trump admin left an incredible number of top positions unfilled. Many agencies were left in disarray and it doesn’t surprise me that this new and small agency hasn’t received priority yet.
KingMachiavelli 5y ago
> The idea for a Digital Corps was sparked by technologists across government who identified a gap in the federal government’s journey towards digital success — a lack of early‑career technology talent. TTS recognized the need for entry‑level technologists to not only bring immediate innovation but also to serve as a continuing resource for government digital transformation. I can't tell if this means they will just hire a dozen junior web developers or if it's more than that. There's is a lot the government could do but they really need to attract a different skill set. The FIPS standards are incredibly out of data and only cover a very small amount of software. Imagine if common but insecure/open by default software stacks like MongoDB, etc. had a FIPs like mode that would disable super permissive settings.
asdfk-12 5y ago
"An initial cohort will launch with 30 fellows in the fall at more than five participating agencies including GSA, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau." 30. Not 3,000? Last word about technological initiatives at the IRS made it sound like the entire team bailed due to bureaucratic slow-downs and piss-poor incentives?
ketzo 5y ago
I, like (I think) many young people, am pretty disillusioned with the current state of the U.S. I would really like for things to be better than they are, and I'm still fairly convinced that software has the potential to make good things happen and improve people's lives. Maybe this is where more people would start to disagree with me, but I would like to live in a place where government work was seen as a noble calling, or at least better, morally, than optimizing ad revenue. I would like to work with people who want to make things that solve problems for huge swaths of people who really need help. But I read about the realities of U.S. government work, and frankly, it doesn't sound like a place I want to work. Slow, bureaucratic, opaque, slow, low-compensation, slow. That's just not attractive to me. If these impressions are wrong, I hope that the USDC has a sizeable marketing budget to correct me. If they're right, then I hope they have a plan to change things. I don't think a lot of our really big problems are solvable without the input of a massive number of technologists, and I am worried that we're not going to have them where they need to be. I hope this works. Edit: I do agree that "fast work" is probably a bad heuristic in many ways, particularly when it comes to work that requires extremely consistent outcomes, like much government work. But shit, it's fun, particularly in software, to make quick decisions and move efficiently to solve problems. And I think you have to contend with the engagement and "fun" that moving fast brings. Compensation is one form of motivation, yes, but there are others. There are reasons people romanticize working at startups, take up new programming languages and frameworks in side projects on their own time: it's cool, and feels good to work on. That's one lever you have to try and push as an employer of engineers (or really of people in general, but particularly people who are very in demand). I'm not advocating for "Move Fast And Break Things," but I am saying that you have to compete with the people who do advocate for it, because that can be really fun.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  No government in history has been efficient. There are moments of brilliance in government operations, but it is never sustainable nor transferrable. > a noble calling, or at least better, morally, than optimizing ad revenue. I would like to work with people who want to make things that solve problems for huge swaths of people who really need help. That's what we do in developing Open Source software. No government is required. Also, there are plenty, plenty of thriving companies that do not sell ads.
fallingknife 5y ago
The government has the money to pay market rate for the top engineers. Why not just do that?
- wslack 5y ago
  That would require (literally) an Act of Congress to pay civil servants more. That said, there are plenty of mid-senior programs for tech talent. There haven't been the same pipelines for more junior talent.
hiram112 5y ago
Sounds like another diversity grift which will be used as a political tool, and won't improve the fed gov't's ability to leverage techology or improve security. Maybe I'm in cynical, but I'm very familiar with some of the previous high profile attempts and the state of fed tech procurement. These programs seem to attract too many activists, and just like most of the SV tech giants, the tech becomes a means to a political end instead of the goal, and we all know how that turns out.
- bnmla 5y ago
  The reason for the program in a nutshell.
rmason 5y ago
I've worked with state government as a volunteer advisor. They're still developing everything with waterfall. Only contracting out to big firms, even if it's a small project. Lawmakers and aides sit in a room and write down what is to be done. That's changing at the federal level. They know they've got a problem. Why shouldn't federal software be as easy to use as the best web software? If you've ever tried to use it you will quickly learn that isn't the case. Some sites will only work with IE and no other browser. Developers in two years can make a huge difference for making the government be more agile and operate better. I always suggest joining a local Code For America brigade. Work on a local project and see if it is for you. If you find yourself drawn to it then consider applying for a two year stint with the federal government. You can really make a difference!
- thekingofravens 5y ago
  I never even heard of code for America until I read this comment.
  - rmason 5y ago
    I'm a member of the Lansing brigade which for some reason isn't on the map. Though to be fair we're only meeting online right now. https://brigade.codeforamerica.org/?_ga=2.123875274.1943552630.1630395864-776739894.1630395864 https://brigade.codeforamerica.org/?_ga=2.123875274.19435526...
- throwaway210222 5y ago
  > They're still developing everything with waterfall. In my bitter experience, as soon as the customer's procurement department insists on paying in dribs and drabs (milestones) the project is locked into the waterfall methodology.
- westurner 5y ago
  > I've worked with state government as a volunteer advisor. They're still developing everything with waterfall. Only contracting out to big firms, even if it's a small project. Lawmakers and aides sit in a room and write down what is to be done. The US Digital Services Playbook likely needs few modifications for use at state and local levels? https://github.com/usds/playbook#readme https://github.com/usds/playbook#readme "PLAY 1: Understand what people need" https://playbook.cio.gov/#play1 https://playbook.cio.gov/#play1 "PLAY 4: Build the service using agile and iterative practices" https://playbook.cio.gov/#play4 https://playbook.cio.gov/#play4 Do [lawmakers and aides] make good "Product Owners", stakeholders, [incentivized, gamified] app feedback capability utilizers? GitLab has Service Desk: you can email into the service desk email without having an account as necessary to create and follow up on [software] issues in GitHub/BitBucket/GitLab/Gitea project management sytems. > That's changing at the federal level. They know they've got a problem. Why shouldn't federal software be as easy to use as the best web software? If you've ever tried to use it you will quickly learn that isn't the case. "PLAY 3: Make it simple and intuitive" https://playbook.cio.gov/#play3 https://playbook.cio.gov/#play3 > Some sites will only work with IE and no other browser. Developers in two years can make a huge difference for making the government be more agile and operate better. US Web Design Standards https://designsystem.digital.gov/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/ From https://github.com/uswds/uswds#browser-support https://github.com/uswds/uswds#browser-support : >> We’ve designed the design system to support older and newer browsers through progressive enhancement. The current major version of the design system (2.0) follows the 2% rule: we officially support any browser above 2% usage as observed by analytics.usa.gov. Currently, this means that the design system version 2.0 supports the newest versions of Chrome, Firefox, Safari, and Internet Explorer 11 and up. > I always suggest joining a local Code For America brigade. Work on a local project and see if it is for you. If you find yourself drawn to it then consider applying for a two year stint with the federal government. You can really make a difference! From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_for_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_for_America : >> [...] described Code for America as "the technology world's equivalent of the Peace Corps or Teach for America". The article goes on to say, "They bring fresh blood to the solution process, deliver agile coding and software development skills, and frequently offer new perspectives on the latest technology—something that is often sorely lacking from municipal government IT programs. This is a win-win for cities that need help and for technologists that want to give back and contribute to lower government costs and the delivery of improved government service."
Proven 5y ago
The US government is already too bloated, there's no need for that at all. They should be laying off federal employees and let them get proper jobs in private sector.
max-ibel 5y ago
Salary isn't everything. They could for instance forgive some fraction of student loans, or give scholarships etc). And give people more recognition, not treat them as code monkeys. It's hard to imagine they change enough of the surrounding culture to give these folks enough clout to make hard but necessary changes. Would love to see Matt Cutts weigh in ;)
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  I'd imagine that the time they spend there counts for Public Student Loan Forgiveness (after ten years, the government pays off the rest of your loans)
panny 5y ago
>designed to place early-career software engineers, data scientists and other technologists at federal agencies So ageism. It's bad enough that SV flagrantly violates employment law with discrimination, but now the government is in on the game as well.
- bnmla 5y ago
  Probably they'll be selected according to the boxes they can tick on one of the growing "oppressed groups" forms. I think they have around 40 boxes as of 2021. Age isn't on them, because that wasn't an issue at the time the Frankfurt School developed its theories. Gotta stay theoretical and dogmatic, otherwise the whole house of cards might collapse.
SLCHavanaReport 5y ago
Utah hacked the NSA
m0zg 5y ago
Here's how it's gonna be: "they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work". Imagine old, crusty, US government systems, subject to all regulations imaginable, and multiple levels of approval to change anything at all, systems that are 20, 30, even 40 years old. Now imagine the pay scale and sheer mind numbing tedium that goes with a government job. Now, further, imagine who will take such a job. Good luck with this, USDC, you're gonna need it.
tdhz77 5y ago
I’m a software engineer that works for the federal government, specifically the United States District Court. I do believe in the mission of making justice for all. There is a myth perpetrated by those in the private sector that government is behind, slow, and not capable. I assure you we are using Rust, Clojure, and Next.jj’s in our projects too. We just aren’t as loud because of privacy concerns. Federal employees operate just like startups. The federal court software factory in the judiciary is the equivalent to 18F. I’m the co-founder of FCSF and we are just getting started. Open source and government are a match made in heaven and I look forward to your contributions to our projects. We code for the people. https://github.com/federal-courts-software-factory/open-case-filing-system https://github.com/federal-courts-software-factory/open-case...
- jasondigitized 5y ago
  What are some of the more interesting projects you are working on? I work at a Legal Tech startup, with a strong focus on eDiscovery and now Evidence Management - "Improve outcomes with products Legal loves." - https://www.csdisco.com/ https://www.csdisco.com/
  - tdhz77 5y ago
    Current focus is on the flag ship case management electronic filing system being revamped and modernized. US courts has one of the largest databases in the world. A fact maybe some don’t know. We are moving towards functional programming for many of our services. Making it easier for products like yours to see the day to day court business through our micro services architecture.
- tmpz22 5y ago
  I’m discouraged that Next.js is being touted here. It’s an awesome technology. But it’s run by a for profit startup (Vercel) who are going to steer it into a walled garden managed hosting ecosystem. The government needs long term thinking for its software and hip frameworks and trendy startups are not it.
  - 5y ago
Dah00n 5y ago
Yet another place where work will be done like in the great TV show The Wire. The US is walking dead. It just doesn't know it yet.
solatic 5y ago
The key point here seems to be the desire to get more engineers scattered into the bottom rungs of the Executive Branch. The argument seems to be that, when Federal middle-management gets access to engineering talent, they'll be able to make use of in-house talent to solve their problems instead of depending on government contracting. It's an important and necessary step, but the challenges their "Fellows" are going to face are predictable. Locked-down development environments, IT policy dictated by faraway admins who may not even be in the same state let alone the same building, no access to production or production-like environments. Then, when the crop graduates in two years, throw out the institutional knowledge they gained when they walk out the door. If the government really wants decent talent, then tie employment to college loan forgiveness (on top of high GS salaries) and ensure that there is a possibility of "up" to go with up-or-out HR policy.
rasz 5y ago
Guess drone assassination didnt bring good PR they were counting for last week, time to establish Space Corp..no that one is taken, Digital Corps!

160 points by elsewhen 5y ago

hanniabu 5y ago

Unless they pay market price, they aren't going to get the talent they need to make a return on this investment

plandis 5y ago
Plus these people straight out of college need mentorship but the best mentors are likely off in industry.
- diskzero 5y ago
  I also have concerns about the quality of the mentorship based on my earlier experiences. There are high quality mentors to be found, but I agree with you that the ratios are way off compared to the private sector.

MattGaiser 5y ago

Realistically, governments need to adjust to market pay to make a difference here. I am a former public servant. I earn after 2 years of experience what they paid people with 6. And I don’t work for a FAANG or even a decently funded VC firm, but am guessing that I am now significantly underpaid (initially signed up for it for interesting work, but that went away so fixing that presently). And I live in Canada, where salaries are already compressed. That working at a not well paying startup can rapidly outpace the government is a huge problem for digital infrastructure.

diskzero 5y ago
The initial hires at the US Digital Service all came in at GS-15, level 10. At least, that is what I was offered. It was the only way they could be remotely competitive. I notice that this new program is using only new grads and boot camp graduates. One reason is that they are no longer able to get the special dispensations to offer the high GS ratings.
- firloop 5y ago
  https://www.generalschedule.org/GS-15 https://www.generalschedule.org/GS-15 According to this site, GS-15 10 is $143,598.00/year (I was curious and I figured others here would be too)
  - ghancock 5y ago
    That number does not include locality adjustment.
  - metaphor 5y ago
    Nope[1], e.g. DC locality is capped by statute to $175.2k base at Step 7. [1] https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries-wages/2021/general-schedule/ https://www.opm.gov/policy-data-oversight/pay-leave/salaries...
- jeffgreco 5y ago
  This isn’t a replacement for USDS though, it’s a companion program. And it appears USDS is still actively recruiting.
  - wslack 5y ago
    Correct! (I work at USDS, am commenting here just personally to shed light where I can).
- GeneralMayhem 5y ago
  Right, but this is still the problem. Even GS-15 L10 is barely competitive with starting new-grad salaries at FAANG, and USDS is trying to pull experienced people. USDS has the whole short-term tour/prestige going for it, though, so they can plausibly get people to take a temporary pay cut as an act of public service.
  - diskzero 5y ago
    I totally agree with you. The first wave of USDS hires were highly motivated to refactor/repair/replace the ACA infrastructure. Most came from much higher paying jobs in Silicon Valley. I doubt the same levels of motivation and excitement are still there, but I could be wrong. There was also a lot of political will and pressure that made those early USDS tasks remotely possible. Without that pressure, I imagine the vendors and the bureaucracy, which was barely tolerable a decade ago, would not be tolerated by most highly qualified candidates.
onion2k 5y ago
The scheme isn't designed to compete with industry. This is more like an internship than a real job. People will do it because they believe it looks good on their resumes. They'll be working with the people who develop government digital infrastructure - those people are often paid quite well, because they're contractors and high level government workers.
Dylan16807 5y ago
> I earn after 2 years of experience what they paid people with 6. Is it wrong for me to think that those numbers shouldn't be super far apart?
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Shouldn't there be a big junior to senior jump? As it stands, they are the same. 80K each.
ffggvv 5y ago
they’re just going to give it to diversity applicants to give them free resume material at the public expense
paxys 5y ago
The government doesn't directly compete with the private sector in any industry, and that is especially unlikely to happen in tech. Promotions/bonuses based on performance, large equity grants, frequent job hopping – all are the exact opposite of how the government works.

diskzero 5y ago

This seems like a good idea, but an initial cohort of only thirty? I suppose some is better than none, but that is much smaller number than I would expect.

pimlottc 5y ago
Start small and iterate.

supperburg 5y ago

I wanted to do an interview with a Taliban spokesman and publish it because i was frustrated with the lopsided narrative of the early coverage of the Taliban surge. It wasn’t until much later that they started publishing interviews with Taliban representatives and you can be sure that those were mostly sliced up with a bunch of important stuff deliberately left out in order to distort the truth. Typical mainstream media stuff. Anyway, I reached out to someone electronically to see if they knew how I might get in contact with a representative. I found myself worrying about triggering surveillance on myself when the NSA intercepted that. Who knows how it works and where the threshold is for them to start monitoring you a bit more closely than everyone else? I started becoming upset about it and the possibilities of the government run amok. It doesn’t bother you until you feel that it’s your well-being that’s impacted. And I always knew intellectually that nothing was going to happen. But it made me realize that our government is 100% out of fucking control. It’s completely unacceptable.

MattGaiser 5y ago
Your idea of a government out of control is the government monitoring communications of the declared enemies of the USA?
- supperburg 5y ago
  I have never made communications with an enemy of the US, so no.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- stillblue 5y ago
  Read his comment again.

MarkSweep 5y ago

Not to be confused with the United States Digital Service, which was started in the Obama administration. If I understand correctly, this new USDC program is for early career people, while the older USDS program is for experienced people. They are similar in that both of them have a limited time duration (2 years for USDC, up to 4 years for USDS). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Digital_Service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Digital_Service

dataflow 5y ago
Do you know why USDS's executive office is vacant?
- Jtsummers 5y ago
  Following a couple links: > When I joined USDS in 2016, I came with an outsider’s perspective, technical skills, and desire to use my talents for good. I thought I would serve for just three to six months. More than four years later, at the end of this month, my service at USDS will end. When technologists join USDS, they sign up for a limited tour of duty. I am no different, and it is my time to step down. I’m so grateful to have been a part of this team. And I am enormously proud of everything our team has accomplished across two Administrations. [emphasis added] From: https://medium.com/the-u-s-digital-service/the-next-chapter-for-usds-2eb6955065f3 https://medium.com/the-u-s-digital-service/the-next-chapter-...
  - dataflow 5y ago
    I guess I was asking "why hasn't it been filled", not "why did the previous person leave".
    - iamnotwhoiam 5y ago
      I don’t know exactly why the Biden admin hasn’t filled it yet, but the Trump admin left an incredible number of top positions unfilled. Many agencies were left in disarray and it doesn’t surprise me that this new and small agency hasn’t received priority yet.

KingMachiavelli 5y ago

> The idea for a Digital Corps was sparked by technologists across government who identified a gap in the federal government’s journey towards digital success — a lack of early‑career technology talent. TTS recognized the need for entry‑level technologists to not only bring immediate innovation but also to serve as a continuing resource for government digital transformation. I can't tell if this means they will just hire a dozen junior web developers or if it's more than that. There's is a lot the government could do but they really need to attract a different skill set. The FIPS standards are incredibly out of data and only cover a very small amount of software. Imagine if common but insecure/open by default software stacks like MongoDB, etc. had a FIPs like mode that would disable super permissive settings.

asdfk-12 5y ago

"An initial cohort will launch with 30 fellows in the fall at more than five participating agencies including GSA, the Department of Veterans Affairs, the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau." 30. Not 3,000? Last word about technological initiatives at the IRS made it sound like the entire team bailed due to bureaucratic slow-downs and piss-poor incentives?

ketzo 5y ago

I, like (I think) many young people, am pretty disillusioned with the current state of the U.S. I would really like for things to be better than they are, and I'm still fairly convinced that software has the potential to make good things happen and improve people's lives. Maybe this is where more people would start to disagree with me, but I would like to live in a place where government work was seen as a noble calling, or at least better, morally, than optimizing ad revenue. I would like to work with people who want to make things that solve problems for huge swaths of people who really need help. But I read about the realities of U.S. government work, and frankly, it doesn't sound like a place I want to work. Slow, bureaucratic, opaque, slow, low-compensation, slow. That's just not attractive to me. If these impressions are wrong, I hope that the USDC has a sizeable marketing budget to correct me. If they're right, then I hope they have a plan to change things. I don't think a lot of our really big problems are solvable without the input of a massive number of technologists, and I am worried that we're not going to have them where they need to be. I hope this works. Edit: I do agree that "fast work" is probably a bad heuristic in many ways, particularly when it comes to work that requires extremely consistent outcomes, like much government work. But shit, it's fun, particularly in software, to make quick decisions and move efficiently to solve problems. And I think you have to contend with the engagement and "fun" that moving fast brings. Compensation is one form of motivation, yes, but there are others. There are reasons people romanticize working at startups, take up new programming languages and frameworks in side projects on their own time: it's cool, and feels good to work on. That's one lever you have to try and push as an employer of engineers (or really of people in general, but particularly people who are very in demand). I'm not advocating for "Move Fast And Break Things," but I am saying that you have to compete with the people who do advocate for it, because that can be really fun.

WalterBright 5y ago
No government in history has been efficient. There are moments of brilliance in government operations, but it is never sustainable nor transferrable. > a noble calling, or at least better, morally, than optimizing ad revenue. I would like to work with people who want to make things that solve problems for huge swaths of people who really need help. That's what we do in developing Open Source software. No government is required. Also, there are plenty, plenty of thriving companies that do not sell ads.

fallingknife 5y ago

The government has the money to pay market rate for the top engineers. Why not just do that?

wslack 5y ago
That would require (literally) an Act of Congress to pay civil servants more. That said, there are plenty of mid-senior programs for tech talent. There haven't been the same pipelines for more junior talent.

hiram112 5y ago

Sounds like another diversity grift which will be used as a political tool, and won't improve the fed gov't's ability to leverage techology or improve security. Maybe I'm in cynical, but I'm very familiar with some of the previous high profile attempts and the state of fed tech procurement. These programs seem to attract too many activists, and just like most of the SV tech giants, the tech becomes a means to a political end instead of the goal, and we all know how that turns out.

bnmla 5y ago
The reason for the program in a nutshell.

rmason 5y ago

I've worked with state government as a volunteer advisor. They're still developing everything with waterfall. Only contracting out to big firms, even if it's a small project. Lawmakers and aides sit in a room and write down what is to be done. That's changing at the federal level. They know they've got a problem. Why shouldn't federal software be as easy to use as the best web software? If you've ever tried to use it you will quickly learn that isn't the case. Some sites will only work with IE and no other browser. Developers in two years can make a huge difference for making the government be more agile and operate better. I always suggest joining a local Code For America brigade. Work on a local project and see if it is for you. If you find yourself drawn to it then consider applying for a two year stint with the federal government. You can really make a difference!

thekingofravens 5y ago
I never even heard of code for America until I read this comment.
- rmason 5y ago
  I'm a member of the Lansing brigade which for some reason isn't on the map. Though to be fair we're only meeting online right now. https://brigade.codeforamerica.org/?_ga=2.123875274.1943552630.1630395864-776739894.1630395864 https://brigade.codeforamerica.org/?_ga=2.123875274.19435526...
throwaway210222 5y ago
> They're still developing everything with waterfall. In my bitter experience, as soon as the customer's procurement department insists on paying in dribs and drabs (milestones) the project is locked into the waterfall methodology.
westurner 5y ago
> I've worked with state government as a volunteer advisor. They're still developing everything with waterfall. Only contracting out to big firms, even if it's a small project. Lawmakers and aides sit in a room and write down what is to be done. The US Digital Services Playbook likely needs few modifications for use at state and local levels? https://github.com/usds/playbook#readme https://github.com/usds/playbook#readme "PLAY 1: Understand what people need" https://playbook.cio.gov/#play1 https://playbook.cio.gov/#play1 "PLAY 4: Build the service using agile and iterative practices" https://playbook.cio.gov/#play4 https://playbook.cio.gov/#play4 Do [lawmakers and aides] make good "Product Owners", stakeholders, [incentivized, gamified] app feedback capability utilizers? GitLab has Service Desk: you can email into the service desk email without having an account as necessary to create and follow up on [software] issues in GitHub/BitBucket/GitLab/Gitea project management sytems. > That's changing at the federal level. They know they've got a problem. Why shouldn't federal software be as easy to use as the best web software? If you've ever tried to use it you will quickly learn that isn't the case. "PLAY 3: Make it simple and intuitive" https://playbook.cio.gov/#play3 https://playbook.cio.gov/#play3 > Some sites will only work with IE and no other browser. Developers in two years can make a huge difference for making the government be more agile and operate better. US Web Design Standards https://designsystem.digital.gov/ https://designsystem.digital.gov/ From https://github.com/uswds/uswds#browser-support https://github.com/uswds/uswds#browser-support : >> We’ve designed the design system to support older and newer browsers through progressive enhancement. The current major version of the design system (2.0) follows the 2% rule: we officially support any browser above 2% usage as observed by analytics.usa.gov. Currently, this means that the design system version 2.0 supports the newest versions of Chrome, Firefox, Safari, and Internet Explorer 11 and up. > I always suggest joining a local Code For America brigade. Work on a local project and see if it is for you. If you find yourself drawn to it then consider applying for a two year stint with the federal government. You can really make a difference! From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_for_America https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Code_for_America : >> [...] described Code for America as "the technology world's equivalent of the Peace Corps or Teach for America". The article goes on to say, "They bring fresh blood to the solution process, deliver agile coding and software development skills, and frequently offer new perspectives on the latest technology—something that is often sorely lacking from municipal government IT programs. This is a win-win for cities that need help and for technologists that want to give back and contribute to lower government costs and the delivery of improved government service."

Proven 5y ago

The US government is already too bloated, there's no need for that at all. They should be laying off federal employees and let them get proper jobs in private sector.

max-ibel 5y ago

Salary isn't everything. They could for instance forgive some fraction of student loans, or give scholarships etc). And give people more recognition, not treat them as code monkeys. It's hard to imagine they change enough of the surrounding culture to give these folks enough clout to make hard but necessary changes. Would love to see Matt Cutts weigh in ;)

Rebelgecko 5y ago
I'd imagine that the time they spend there counts for Public Student Loan Forgiveness (after ten years, the government pays off the rest of your loans)

panny 5y ago

>designed to place early-career software engineers, data scientists and other technologists at federal agencies So ageism. It's bad enough that SV flagrantly violates employment law with discrimination, but now the government is in on the game as well.

bnmla 5y ago
Probably they'll be selected according to the boxes they can tick on one of the growing "oppressed groups" forms. I think they have around 40 boxes as of 2021. Age isn't on them, because that wasn't an issue at the time the Frankfurt School developed its theories. Gotta stay theoretical and dogmatic, otherwise the whole house of cards might collapse.

SLCHavanaReport 5y ago

Utah hacked the NSA

m0zg 5y ago

Here's how it's gonna be: "they pretend to pay us, we pretend to work". Imagine old, crusty, US government systems, subject to all regulations imaginable, and multiple levels of approval to change anything at all, systems that are 20, 30, even 40 years old. Now imagine the pay scale and sheer mind numbing tedium that goes with a government job. Now, further, imagine who will take such a job. Good luck with this, USDC, you're gonna need it.

tdhz77 5y ago

I’m a software engineer that works for the federal government, specifically the United States District Court. I do believe in the mission of making justice for all. There is a myth perpetrated by those in the private sector that government is behind, slow, and not capable. I assure you we are using Rust, Clojure, and Next.jj’s in our projects too. We just aren’t as loud because of privacy concerns. Federal employees operate just like startups. The federal court software factory in the judiciary is the equivalent to 18F. I’m the co-founder of FCSF and we are just getting started. Open source and government are a match made in heaven and I look forward to your contributions to our projects. We code for the people. https://github.com/federal-courts-software-factory/open-case-filing-system https://github.com/federal-courts-software-factory/open-case...

jasondigitized 5y ago
What are some of the more interesting projects you are working on? I work at a Legal Tech startup, with a strong focus on eDiscovery and now Evidence Management - "Improve outcomes with products Legal loves." - https://www.csdisco.com/ https://www.csdisco.com/
- tdhz77 5y ago
  Current focus is on the flag ship case management electronic filing system being revamped and modernized. US courts has one of the largest databases in the world. A fact maybe some don’t know. We are moving towards functional programming for many of our services. Making it easier for products like yours to see the day to day court business through our micro services architecture.
tmpz22 5y ago
I’m discouraged that Next.js is being touted here. It’s an awesome technology. But it’s run by a for profit startup (Vercel) who are going to steer it into a walled garden managed hosting ecosystem. The government needs long term thinking for its software and hip frameworks and trendy startups are not it.
- 5y ago

Dah00n 5y ago

Yet another place where work will be done like in the great TV show The Wire. The US is walking dead. It just doesn't know it yet.

solatic 5y ago

The key point here seems to be the desire to get more engineers scattered into the bottom rungs of the Executive Branch. The argument seems to be that, when Federal middle-management gets access to engineering talent, they'll be able to make use of in-house talent to solve their problems instead of depending on government contracting. It's an important and necessary step, but the challenges their "Fellows" are going to face are predictable. Locked-down development environments, IT policy dictated by faraway admins who may not even be in the same state let alone the same building, no access to production or production-like environments. Then, when the crop graduates in two years, throw out the institutional knowledge they gained when they walk out the door. If the government really wants decent talent, then tie employment to college loan forgiveness (on top of high GS salaries) and ensure that there is a possibility of "up" to go with up-or-out HR policy.

rasz 5y ago

Guess drone assassination didnt bring good PR they were counting for last week, time to establish Space Corp..no that one is taken, Digital Corps!