9 ms·

The PineNote is an e-ink notebook that runs Linux

113 points by cunidev 5y ago

shortformblog 5y ago
It’s worth noting that this is a bit more powerful than Pine64’s other hardware releases, in part because it’s using the same base chipset as its Quartz64 SBC, released earlier this year: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Quartz64 https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Quartz64
- zamadatix 5y ago
  Does boot/ethernet/PCIe/wifi/USB work with a mainline kernel?
  - rjsw 5y ago
    The board only became available last month, kernel source is still in a development tree.
    - zamadatix 5y ago
      Board is brand new, chipset is not though. Looks like most of what I need is already merged in 5.14!
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    See https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Quartz64_Development https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Quartz64_Development which is quite up to date. Looks like they have quite a bit of stuff in the pipeline.
    - zamadatix 5y ago
      Perfect! Thanks for the link, I was thinking that was going to be about the supported OS status only and didn't think to check it. Looks like all of the boxes I needed are checked except PCIe which already has a tiny patchset in linux-next :D.
  - megous 5y ago
    boot/ethernet/wifi will work with 5.15. At least linux-next from a few days ago boots and has working ethernet, here where I sit. :)
- megous 5y ago
  I wouldn't call this more powerful than pine's rk3399 products. It's a bit less powerful than that. Though I've just started playing with my quartz64.
  - shortformblog 5y ago
    Good call. Perhaps I should have said newer.
  - rjsw 5y ago
    The Quartz64 can address more RAM than a rk3399 system.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
Calling it a notebook is a bit of a stretch. It doesn't take notes. If you’re looking to buy a PineNote in the first batch, you must expect to write software for it, not to write notes on it. The software shipping from the factory for the first batch will not be suitable for taking notes, reading e-books, or writing your dissertation [...] Edit: It looks like tuxphones is the one calling it a notebook. Pine 64 never calls it a notebook on their site. It's named PineNote, but it's marketed as an "e-ink device" that may be a non-functional prototype on delivery. From their press release: It may not even boot to a graphical environment.
- whoisburbansky 5y ago
  Don’t take any notes, yet. This is pretty much how all Pine devices ship, and they’re up front about it. They’ve always been very explicitly that the Pine devices aren’t meant to be fully formed consumer devices and that it’ll take quite a bit of elbow grease and community effort to make the most out of the hardware.
  - kayodelycaon 5y ago
    Not everyone follows Pine devices closely. I was quite surprised to see someone announce a device and call it a notebook, when it lacks the all of the software that defines the category.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Yup, it's supposed to be more like an e-ink tablet AIUI. Not really a traditional notebook computer.
      - jethro_tell 5y ago
        It's more like a traditional notebook no?
    - blihp 5y ago
      This is probably a persistent enough problem that Pine64 probably does need to put a bit more effort into communicating who they cater to. They should be making it clear that nothing they sell is appropriate for a typical consumer looking for a 'just works' experience. Their products are geared toward hardware and software hackers.
mthld 5y ago
Is the input lag in par with other e-ink notebooks?
- AlanYx 5y ago
  When the project was initially announced, Pine was claiming a 60Hz refresh rate, which sounded amazing but is essentially impossible for e-ink at full dynamic range. They've since clarified this: >Edit August 16 00:09 UTC: A previous version of this post listed the e-ink panel’s refresh rate at 60Hz. This number requires much more context. It takes multiple frames to display most images on an e-ink panel. The visual performance of the panel also depends on the method of converting the screen image to data the panel understands. We will be unable to make estimates of the panel’s true performance in frames per second without much more testing and development. So we’ve removed the 60Hz figure for now. We apologize for any misunderstanding. Realistically, the best you can do with e-ink is 1-bit with ~120ms refresh (just over 8 frames per second). If you want shades of grey it slows considerably. Dasung and now Boox Mira both support alternative modes that compromise on dynamic range, number of shades of grey, and amount of ghosting to be able to display video somewhat adequately.
  - amelius 5y ago
    > Realistically, the best you can do with e-ink is 1-bit with ~120ms refresh I'm curious, why is that so? Can't the control algorithm boost the speed by sending higher voltages when switching, then going back to "holding" voltage?
    - megous 5y ago
      No it can't. (voltage is applied to entire row - select cells - at once) The algorithm can realistically only affect timing. (have the voltage applied to the entire row longer, but that's not very useful if you have varying shades of gray within the row)
      - amelius 5y ago
        How about a PWM-like approach? E.g. select one row with high voltage, and activate the columns with a much higher frequency (where "longer on" results in more effective power into the cell)?
Enginerrrd 5y ago
Let me just say that the Remarkable also runs linux. Not only that, but I've been blown away by the ongoing results from the team at Remarkable. I only have the Remarkable 1 but they continue to ship updates for it, and these updates are often really substantive with sometimes profound new features. Their cloud service is free, no aggravating subscription stuff and even though they have the remarkable 2 now, they continue to kill it with the updates to improve my experience with the remarkable 1. They, as of right now, have my undying loyalty and appear to be a truly customer focused company. I'd love to buy their entire team a couple beers. Don't get me wrong, I love pine64 too, but they're way more oriented to us hacker types than ordinary people and I don't want to have to hack together a functioning device with everything I own, though I think they're doong good work none-the-less.
- eloeffler 5y ago
  And they give root access to the device along with GPL compliance statements, allowing for a flourishing developer community that creates tons of useful programs that can run on the embedded device. See for example https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable for a list. There is also an opkg-based package manager and repo with many packages: https://toltec-dev.org/ https://toltec-dev.org/
  - Buttons840 5y ago
    I'm scared by that link warning about how easy it is to brick your device. Should I be?
    - p_l 5y ago
      Remarkable 1 is recoverable without many tricks. Remarkable 2 requires a bit of parts and possibly soldering (but not required, just might make things easier if you don't have pogo pins with handles available). Both are fully recoverable unless you do something really impressive.
      - 5y ago
rjsw 5y ago
Related discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28190756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28190756
sharikone 5y ago
Interesting. As an aside the Remarkable runs Linux too and it's somewhat hackable, but its main application is closed source, as is the drawing of the screen (accomplished with temperature dependent waveforms via software). Its hardware specs are much worse but it's thinner at 4.7 mm. I appreciate this new product but if it were dependent on me I would have invested in color eInk instead of powerful CPU with an NPU. I guess the build on the community providing a nice environment and handwriting recognition (otherwise I cannot explain the NPU)
qwerty456127 5y ago
Cool. I just dream someone will also create a DE and apps designed specifically for e-ink, on the principle that no piece of screen should be re-drawn unless it actually is to show (or hide) some [important] updated information.
jxdxbx 5y ago
I have a Boox Note Air--it runs Android, and can do cool stuff to apps to make them work better on e-ink (mostly tweaking the contrast). It's still kind of slow in practice, like all e-ink. Page turns will take longer than a tablet or of course a book. It comes with a stylus, but the only note-taking app that works well with it is the built-in one, which is not great though at least it can sync your notes off the device. But standard Android apps that support pen input are unusable. If you want to read PDFs on an e-ink screen, I think this is probably the best option. You need a much larger screen than Kindles have of course, and the Android ecosystem has some ok apps for PDFs and comics (the Boox has a decent PDF reader but I'd suggest using a different app that syncs). When it comes down to it, though, I've never really been happy with e-ink. Tablets are just so much faster and more versatile, and for reading in the sun and so forth I'd rather just take a book.
- thatcherc 5y ago
  I have a Boox Note Pro (small one) and I also find it great for taking big PDFs around for reading outside or while traveling. I recently found out about Onyx's GPL violations, though, which kind of sours me on the company and product. There's a discussion on reddit [0], a discussion about that thread on HN [1], and some other stories here and there about the issue as well [2]. Really cool to see a cheap e-ink android device but bummer that the company isn't compliant with the licenses of the open source software it uses. [0] - https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hl09g7/onyx_boox_chinese_company_will_not_share_their/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hl09g7/onyx_boox_chi... [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735962 [2] - https://linustechtips.com/topic/1331748-shortcircuit-showcases-boox-a-product-that-violates-gpl2/ https://linustechtips.com/topic/1331748-shortcircuit-showcas...
- jnorthrop 5y ago
  I also own a Boox Air and I agree with everything you wrote. It is a device built for specific purposes. I get a ton of use from mine. It sits next to me all day for note taking, and I have my Kindle, Instapaper, and Safari Books apps for reading. I don't use it for anything else but that isn't the intent of the device. If you are looking for something all purpose, as you say, look for something other than eink.
motohagiography 5y ago
This reminds me of another HN thread today about ncurses and text based UIs. Writing software for e-ink displays could be an efficient interface hybrid that included Ncurses-like navigation. From a general SaaS product perspective, your product comes down to the value of the data you provide, and the best possible user experience is in fact an API (imo), which customers integrate into their own systems, and it just sticks there and generates revenue. If you can develop a SaaS that works on an e-ink display, that's valuable data. It's choosing and solving for an arbitrary constraint, which is inferior to just finding out what people want and making it for them, but it requires us to build a meaningful tool instead of just another dazzling representation. In terms of refining ideas, that it should work in lynx could be an interesting enhancment to the creative process.
soapdish 5y ago
I've never been interested in hardware, but have recently become a Pine64 fanboy. I daily drive Pinephone, Pinetime, and am keen to get my hands on the PineNote. More open hardware please! :)
tw04 5y ago
Will this have a OneNote client? That missing feature makes the remarkable a nonstarter for me and the fact they still don't seem interested in adding one baffles me. No I'm not interested in the "just email it to yourself" workflow. I want and need to be able to directly interact with OneNote.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  https://github.com/jamesf91/RemarkableSync https://github.com/jamesf91/RemarkableSync might work for you. Big plus to the relatively open ecosystem of the remarkable is that it's not that hard* to implement yourself. (*hard being a function of tech familiarity here, if you can run/install linux, you're probably fine tinkering) In my case, I have a few custom scripts that push my notes/notebooks up to a self-hosted Bookstack instance (https://www.bookstackapp.com/ https://www.bookstackapp.com/). Not something a commercial company is ever likely to make, but workable on a remarkable.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  If you're referring to the Microsoft product, OneNote's capabilities are... extensive. I highly doubt any company other than Microsoft has written full-featured clients for it. The only option I see is getting an e-ink tablet that runs Android. Even then, I don't know if the pen will work.
xrd 5y ago
I own several of the Pine devices. They are all alpha in different ways but that's fine, I'm paying for the future. The thing that worries me is that they are launching a lot of products. They are all adjacent in some ways. But, should I as a customer, or Pine as a company, be worried about the cost of supporting all these different kinds of devices? I recall reading a long time ago that Google intentionally offers products where they can get away without offering support from a real person. That's obviously not true anymore but many of their products are entirely self supported (or GTFO...). The obvioys reason is that support is so incredibly costly and you never recoup a penny of that cost because it only happens after the purchase is made in most cases. Is this the true brilliance of Pine, that they've created a community of people around them that are willing to help get all these products to the next level and they can avoid this costly facet of any organization? Or, is this a fatal mistake that will kill Pine? I'm super excited about all their products and some of them will undoubtedly sit in my closet after the initial use. But, is that ok for the second wave of users who will demand something better?
- freedomben 5y ago
  I've had many of the same thoughts as you, and I have some theories. I'm not affiliated in any way with Pine other than I love (and buy) a lot of their stuff. My theory is that they view themselves as the hardware people, not the makers of consumer devices. They follow an "if we build it they will come" approach. They have dipped a toe in consumer-facing stuff but the bulk of their stuff is "we make the open hardware, let the software people figure it out and support it, etc." I'm very comfortable with that, especially given that it allows them to make things really affordable (which IMHO is a super important aspect). It especially seems as though Manjaro is answering the call. I know there are some Fedora community members that are as well.
- bluGill 5y ago
  They are moving to a model where you can buy direct from china and no support; or from in country resellers for more money and support provided. If they can get the second wave to move to the resellers (pay for it) the model looks good.
- blihp 5y ago
jjuel 5y ago
I was hoping for an affordable competitor to the Remarkable, but seems like it is just a competitor not necessarily affordable like a lot of the other Pine products. Not to say it won't be great or it is a bad thing, but had my hopes up when I saw the title. I cannot justify spending that amount for that type of product. Again not a knock as it is nice to see them get into this market just not what I thought when I originally saw that title.
- horsawlarway 5y ago
  As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space. I find it pretty unfortunate, because E-Ink really, really shines in terms of battery life and readability, and I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets.
  - robinsoh 5y ago
    > As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space. "E-Ink licensing"? Tell us more. > I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets. What are the current fees?
    - horsawlarway 5y ago
      I mean simply that E-Ink (EPDs) remains incredibly patent incumbered, and the primary holder does not sell screens cheaply. Your format and incredibly late reply make me think you're asking some sort of "Gotcha" question here, and I have no idea why. see: About E Ink E Ink is the recognized leader and innovator in electronic ink technology, with over 600 U.S. patents, and 1,374 worldwide patents. E Ink continues to aggressively fund and place corporate priority on innovation, invention, and the *defense of its extensive intellectual property holdings*. E Ink Corporation was spun out from MIT’s Media Lab in 1997 to commercialize electronic ink and electronic paper display (EPD) technology. In 2009, E Ink Corporation was purchased by Prime View International (PVI), a leading small and medium sized TFT-LCD and EPD provider. PVI was later renamed E Ink Holdings, Inc. E Ink Holdings Inc. (8069.TWO) is now the world's largest supplier of EPD displays to the eReader market. It has transformed and defined the eReader market and is redefining the signage, architecture and design, mobile, wearable and retail markets with its ePaper technology, enabling a new multi-billion dollar market in less than 10 years. Its corporate philosophy aims to deliver revolutionary products, user experiences, and environmental benefits through advanced technology development. This vision has led to its continuous investments in the field of ePaper displays as well as expanding the use of its technologies into a number of other markets and applications, including smart packaging and fashion. Its EPD products make it the worldwide leader for ePaper. Its Fringe Field Switching (FFS) technologies are a standard for high-end LCD displays and have been licensed to all major liquid crystal display makers in the world. E Ink Holdings is listed in Taiwan's Taipei Exchange (TPEx) and the Luxembourg market. For more information please visit www.eink.com. --- Edit - I see from your other replies this is clearly intended as a "gotcha" question, but I think you're incorrect in your assumption that volume is the problem. I'd argue that much like 3d printing, the issue is not really costs, but rather patents and licensing... as I clearly alluded to above. For comparison, Amazon alone is shipping 20+ million EPD products a year through kindles. Most LCD TV manufacturers ship around the same volume, and the industry total is only around 200 million. see: https://www.statista.com/statistics/668519/lcd-tv-shipments-worldwide-by-vendor/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/668519/lcd-tv-shipments-... Basically - I'm claiming your argument is bullshit. The cost difference is driven by IP protections, not by volume of sales.
TheRealPomax 5y ago
And still has zero actual videos of the device in action, which makes it really hard to get excited about it rather than cautiously apprehensive. $400 might be cheap compared to, say, a remarkable2, but not if the display turns out to be flat-out mediocre. Then that's $400 better spent on "saving up for a remarkable2".
- megous 5y ago
  https://twitter.com/thepine64 https://twitter.com/thepine64
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
  https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28355851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28355851 ?
- johnday 5y ago
  > $400 might be cheap compared to, say, a remarkable2 A reMarkable 2 costs $399 brand new, so I'm not sure what you're on about.
  - avery42 5y ago
    I think a lot of people missed that only the early adopters batches will come with the pen and magnetic case included: > We will be making the PineNote available for early adopters later this year for $399. The early adopter’s PineNote batch will ship with a magnetic cover (working with an on-board hall sensor, putting the device to sleep) as well as the EMR pen. Following the early adopter’s batch, both the cover and the pen will be sold separately. The Remarkable 2 costs $547 USD with a pen and magnetic cover. So right now the PineNote is ~$150 cheaper, but once they start selling the accessories separately, I'm expecting it to be around $50-$100 cheaper than the R2. Still a good difference, but it's not as competitive price-wise as people think. Edit: Not that price is all that matters, I'm super excited to have a proper Linux e-ink device!
nafizh 5y ago
Not sure from reading the post, but does it have a backlight? I love my Remarkable 2 to death, but the only thing that bugs me is I cannot read something at night when the lights are off. A backlight will make it perfect.
chx 5y ago
Didn't we discuss this at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28190756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28190756 ?
ShrigmaMale 5y ago
So does the Kindle. I like the idea of a "freer" device but it is worth note to any current Kindle user that with a jailbreak you can get the same Linux shell.

113 points by cunidev 5y ago

It’s worth noting that this is a bit more powerful than Pine64’s other hardware releases, in part because it’s using the same base chipset as its Quartz64 SBC, released earlier this year: https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Quartz64 https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Quartz64

zamadatix 5y ago
Does boot/ethernet/PCIe/wifi/USB work with a mainline kernel?
- rjsw 5y ago
  The board only became available last month, kernel source is still in a development tree.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    Board is brand new, chipset is not though. Looks like most of what I need is already merged in 5.14!
- zozbot234 5y ago
  See https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Quartz64_Development https://wiki.pine64.org/wiki/Quartz64_Development which is quite up to date. Looks like they have quite a bit of stuff in the pipeline.
  - zamadatix 5y ago
    Perfect! Thanks for the link, I was thinking that was going to be about the supported OS status only and didn't think to check it. Looks like all of the boxes I needed are checked except PCIe which already has a tiny patchset in linux-next :D.
- megous 5y ago
  boot/ethernet/wifi will work with 5.15. At least linux-next from a few days ago boots and has working ethernet, here where I sit. :)
megous 5y ago
I wouldn't call this more powerful than pine's rk3399 products. It's a bit less powerful than that. Though I've just started playing with my quartz64.
- shortformblog 5y ago
  Good call. Perhaps I should have said newer.
- rjsw 5y ago
  The Quartz64 can address more RAM than a rk3399 system.

kayodelycaon 5y ago

Calling it a notebook is a bit of a stretch. It doesn't take notes. If you’re looking to buy a PineNote in the first batch, you must expect to write software for it, not to write notes on it. The software shipping from the factory for the first batch will not be suitable for taking notes, reading e-books, or writing your dissertation [...] Edit: It looks like tuxphones is the one calling it a notebook. Pine 64 never calls it a notebook on their site. It's named PineNote, but it's marketed as an "e-ink device" that may be a non-functional prototype on delivery. From their press release: It may not even boot to a graphical environment.

whoisburbansky 5y ago
Don’t take any notes, yet. This is pretty much how all Pine devices ship, and they’re up front about it. They’ve always been very explicitly that the Pine devices aren’t meant to be fully formed consumer devices and that it’ll take quite a bit of elbow grease and community effort to make the most out of the hardware.
- kayodelycaon 5y ago
  Not everyone follows Pine devices closely. I was quite surprised to see someone announce a device and call it a notebook, when it lacks the all of the software that defines the category.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Yup, it's supposed to be more like an e-ink tablet AIUI. Not really a traditional notebook computer.
    - jethro_tell 5y ago
      It's more like a traditional notebook no?
  - blihp 5y ago
    This is probably a persistent enough problem that Pine64 probably does need to put a bit more effort into communicating who they cater to. They should be making it clear that nothing they sell is appropriate for a typical consumer looking for a 'just works' experience. Their products are geared toward hardware and software hackers.

mthld 5y ago

Is the input lag in par with other e-ink notebooks?

AlanYx 5y ago
When the project was initially announced, Pine was claiming a 60Hz refresh rate, which sounded amazing but is essentially impossible for e-ink at full dynamic range. They've since clarified this: >Edit August 16 00:09 UTC: A previous version of this post listed the e-ink panel’s refresh rate at 60Hz. This number requires much more context. It takes multiple frames to display most images on an e-ink panel. The visual performance of the panel also depends on the method of converting the screen image to data the panel understands. We will be unable to make estimates of the panel’s true performance in frames per second without much more testing and development. So we’ve removed the 60Hz figure for now. We apologize for any misunderstanding. Realistically, the best you can do with e-ink is 1-bit with ~120ms refresh (just over 8 frames per second). If you want shades of grey it slows considerably. Dasung and now Boox Mira both support alternative modes that compromise on dynamic range, number of shades of grey, and amount of ghosting to be able to display video somewhat adequately.
- amelius 5y ago
  > Realistically, the best you can do with e-ink is 1-bit with ~120ms refresh I'm curious, why is that so? Can't the control algorithm boost the speed by sending higher voltages when switching, then going back to "holding" voltage?
  - megous 5y ago
    No it can't. (voltage is applied to entire row - select cells - at once) The algorithm can realistically only affect timing. (have the voltage applied to the entire row longer, but that's not very useful if you have varying shades of gray within the row)
    - amelius 5y ago
      How about a PWM-like approach? E.g. select one row with high voltage, and activate the columns with a much higher frequency (where "longer on" results in more effective power into the cell)?

Enginerrrd 5y ago

Let me just say that the Remarkable also runs linux. Not only that, but I've been blown away by the ongoing results from the team at Remarkable. I only have the Remarkable 1 but they continue to ship updates for it, and these updates are often really substantive with sometimes profound new features. Their cloud service is free, no aggravating subscription stuff and even though they have the remarkable 2 now, they continue to kill it with the updates to improve my experience with the remarkable 1. They, as of right now, have my undying loyalty and appear to be a truly customer focused company. I'd love to buy their entire team a couple beers. Don't get me wrong, I love pine64 too, but they're way more oriented to us hacker types than ordinary people and I don't want to have to hack together a functioning device with everything I own, though I think they're doong good work none-the-less.

eloeffler 5y ago
And they give root access to the device along with GPL compliance statements, allowing for a flourishing developer community that creates tons of useful programs that can run on the embedded device. See for example https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable https://github.com/reHackable/awesome-reMarkable for a list. There is also an opkg-based package manager and repo with many packages: https://toltec-dev.org/ https://toltec-dev.org/
- Buttons840 5y ago
  I'm scared by that link warning about how easy it is to brick your device. Should I be?
  - p_l 5y ago
    Remarkable 1 is recoverable without many tricks. Remarkable 2 requires a bit of parts and possibly soldering (but not required, just might make things easier if you don't have pogo pins with handles available). Both are fully recoverable unless you do something really impressive.
    - 5y ago

rjsw 5y ago

Related discussion here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28190756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28190756

sharikone 5y ago

Interesting. As an aside the Remarkable runs Linux too and it's somewhat hackable, but its main application is closed source, as is the drawing of the screen (accomplished with temperature dependent waveforms via software). Its hardware specs are much worse but it's thinner at 4.7 mm. I appreciate this new product but if it were dependent on me I would have invested in color eInk instead of powerful CPU with an NPU. I guess the build on the community providing a nice environment and handwriting recognition (otherwise I cannot explain the NPU)

qwerty456127 5y ago

Cool. I just dream someone will also create a DE and apps designed specifically for e-ink, on the principle that no piece of screen should be re-drawn unless it actually is to show (or hide) some [important] updated information.

jxdxbx 5y ago

I have a Boox Note Air--it runs Android, and can do cool stuff to apps to make them work better on e-ink (mostly tweaking the contrast). It's still kind of slow in practice, like all e-ink. Page turns will take longer than a tablet or of course a book. It comes with a stylus, but the only note-taking app that works well with it is the built-in one, which is not great though at least it can sync your notes off the device. But standard Android apps that support pen input are unusable. If you want to read PDFs on an e-ink screen, I think this is probably the best option. You need a much larger screen than Kindles have of course, and the Android ecosystem has some ok apps for PDFs and comics (the Boox has a decent PDF reader but I'd suggest using a different app that syncs). When it comes down to it, though, I've never really been happy with e-ink. Tablets are just so much faster and more versatile, and for reading in the sun and so forth I'd rather just take a book.

thatcherc 5y ago
I have a Boox Note Pro (small one) and I also find it great for taking big PDFs around for reading outside or while traveling. I recently found out about Onyx's GPL violations, though, which kind of sours me on the company and product. There's a discussion on reddit [0], a discussion about that thread on HN [1], and some other stories here and there about the issue as well [2]. Really cool to see a cheap e-ink android device but bummer that the company isn't compliant with the licenses of the open source software it uses. [0] - https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hl09g7/onyx_boox_chinese_company_will_not_share_their/ https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/hl09g7/onyx_boox_chi... [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735962 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23735962 [2] - https://linustechtips.com/topic/1331748-shortcircuit-showcases-boox-a-product-that-violates-gpl2/ https://linustechtips.com/topic/1331748-shortcircuit-showcas...
jnorthrop 5y ago
I also own a Boox Air and I agree with everything you wrote. It is a device built for specific purposes. I get a ton of use from mine. It sits next to me all day for note taking, and I have my Kindle, Instapaper, and Safari Books apps for reading. I don't use it for anything else but that isn't the intent of the device. If you are looking for something all purpose, as you say, look for something other than eink.

motohagiography 5y ago

This reminds me of another HN thread today about ncurses and text based UIs. Writing software for e-ink displays could be an efficient interface hybrid that included Ncurses-like navigation. From a general SaaS product perspective, your product comes down to the value of the data you provide, and the best possible user experience is in fact an API (imo), which customers integrate into their own systems, and it just sticks there and generates revenue. If you can develop a SaaS that works on an e-ink display, that's valuable data. It's choosing and solving for an arbitrary constraint, which is inferior to just finding out what people want and making it for them, but it requires us to build a meaningful tool instead of just another dazzling representation. In terms of refining ideas, that it should work in lynx could be an interesting enhancment to the creative process.

soapdish 5y ago

I've never been interested in hardware, but have recently become a Pine64 fanboy. I daily drive Pinephone, Pinetime, and am keen to get my hands on the PineNote. More open hardware please! :)

tw04 5y ago

Will this have a OneNote client? That missing feature makes the remarkable a nonstarter for me and the fact they still don't seem interested in adding one baffles me. No I'm not interested in the "just email it to yourself" workflow. I want and need to be able to directly interact with OneNote.

horsawlarway 5y ago
https://github.com/jamesf91/RemarkableSync https://github.com/jamesf91/RemarkableSync might work for you. Big plus to the relatively open ecosystem of the remarkable is that it's not that hard* to implement yourself. (*hard being a function of tech familiarity here, if you can run/install linux, you're probably fine tinkering) In my case, I have a few custom scripts that push my notes/notebooks up to a self-hosted Bookstack instance (https://www.bookstackapp.com/ https://www.bookstackapp.com/). Not something a commercial company is ever likely to make, but workable on a remarkable.
kayodelycaon 5y ago
If you're referring to the Microsoft product, OneNote's capabilities are... extensive. I highly doubt any company other than Microsoft has written full-featured clients for it. The only option I see is getting an e-ink tablet that runs Android. Even then, I don't know if the pen will work.

xrd 5y ago

I own several of the Pine devices. They are all alpha in different ways but that's fine, I'm paying for the future. The thing that worries me is that they are launching a lot of products. They are all adjacent in some ways. But, should I as a customer, or Pine as a company, be worried about the cost of supporting all these different kinds of devices? I recall reading a long time ago that Google intentionally offers products where they can get away without offering support from a real person. That's obviously not true anymore but many of their products are entirely self supported (or GTFO...). The obvioys reason is that support is so incredibly costly and you never recoup a penny of that cost because it only happens after the purchase is made in most cases. Is this the true brilliance of Pine, that they've created a community of people around them that are willing to help get all these products to the next level and they can avoid this costly facet of any organization? Or, is this a fatal mistake that will kill Pine? I'm super excited about all their products and some of them will undoubtedly sit in my closet after the initial use. But, is that ok for the second wave of users who will demand something better?

freedomben 5y ago
I've had many of the same thoughts as you, and I have some theories. I'm not affiliated in any way with Pine other than I love (and buy) a lot of their stuff. My theory is that they view themselves as the hardware people, not the makers of consumer devices. They follow an "if we build it they will come" approach. They have dipped a toe in consumer-facing stuff but the bulk of their stuff is "we make the open hardware, let the software people figure it out and support it, etc." I'm very comfortable with that, especially given that it allows them to make things really affordable (which IMHO is a super important aspect). It especially seems as though Manjaro is answering the call. I know there are some Fedora community members that are as well.
bluGill 5y ago
They are moving to a model where you can buy direct from china and no support; or from in country resellers for more money and support provided. If they can get the second wave to move to the resellers (pay for it) the model looks good.
blihp 5y ago

jjuel 5y ago

I was hoping for an affordable competitor to the Remarkable, but seems like it is just a competitor not necessarily affordable like a lot of the other Pine products. Not to say it won't be great or it is a bad thing, but had my hopes up when I saw the title. I cannot justify spending that amount for that type of product. Again not a knock as it is nice to see them get into this market just not what I thought when I originally saw that title.

horsawlarway 5y ago
As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space. I find it pretty unfortunate, because E-Ink really, really shines in terms of battery life and readability, and I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets.
- robinsoh 5y ago
  > As long as the E-Ink licensing remains the way it is, there won't really be an affordable competitor in this space. "E-Ink licensing"? Tell us more. > I think the current fees are leaving the tech only in niche and high end markets. What are the current fees?
  - horsawlarway 5y ago
    I mean simply that E-Ink (EPDs) remains incredibly patent incumbered, and the primary holder does not sell screens cheaply. Your format and incredibly late reply make me think you're asking some sort of "Gotcha" question here, and I have no idea why. see: About E Ink E Ink is the recognized leader and innovator in electronic ink technology, with over 600 U.S. patents, and 1,374 worldwide patents. E Ink continues to aggressively fund and place corporate priority on innovation, invention, and the *defense of its extensive intellectual property holdings*. E Ink Corporation was spun out from MIT’s Media Lab in 1997 to commercialize electronic ink and electronic paper display (EPD) technology. In 2009, E Ink Corporation was purchased by Prime View International (PVI), a leading small and medium sized TFT-LCD and EPD provider. PVI was later renamed E Ink Holdings, Inc. E Ink Holdings Inc. (8069.TWO) is now the world's largest supplier of EPD displays to the eReader market. It has transformed and defined the eReader market and is redefining the signage, architecture and design, mobile, wearable and retail markets with its ePaper technology, enabling a new multi-billion dollar market in less than 10 years. Its corporate philosophy aims to deliver revolutionary products, user experiences, and environmental benefits through advanced technology development. This vision has led to its continuous investments in the field of ePaper displays as well as expanding the use of its technologies into a number of other markets and applications, including smart packaging and fashion. Its EPD products make it the worldwide leader for ePaper. Its Fringe Field Switching (FFS) technologies are a standard for high-end LCD displays and have been licensed to all major liquid crystal display makers in the world. E Ink Holdings is listed in Taiwan's Taipei Exchange (TPEx) and the Luxembourg market. For more information please visit www.eink.com. --- Edit - I see from your other replies this is clearly intended as a "gotcha" question, but I think you're incorrect in your assumption that volume is the problem. I'd argue that much like 3d printing, the issue is not really costs, but rather patents and licensing... as I clearly alluded to above. For comparison, Amazon alone is shipping 20+ million EPD products a year through kindles. Most LCD TV manufacturers ship around the same volume, and the industry total is only around 200 million. see: https://www.statista.com/statistics/668519/lcd-tv-shipments-worldwide-by-vendor/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/668519/lcd-tv-shipments-... Basically - I'm claiming your argument is bullshit. The cost difference is driven by IP protections, not by volume of sales.

TheRealPomax 5y ago

And still has zero actual videos of the device in action, which makes it really hard to get excited about it rather than cautiously apprehensive. $400 might be cheap compared to, say, a remarkable2, but not if the display turns out to be flat-out mediocre. Then that's $400 better spent on "saving up for a remarkable2".

megous 5y ago
https://twitter.com/thepine64 https://twitter.com/thepine64
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
yjftsjthsd-h 5y ago
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28355851 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28355851 ?
johnday 5y ago
> $400 might be cheap compared to, say, a remarkable2 A reMarkable 2 costs $399 brand new, so I'm not sure what you're on about.
- avery42 5y ago
  I think a lot of people missed that only the early adopters batches will come with the pen and magnetic case included: > We will be making the PineNote available for early adopters later this year for $399. The early adopter’s PineNote batch will ship with a magnetic cover (working with an on-board hall sensor, putting the device to sleep) as well as the EMR pen. Following the early adopter’s batch, both the cover and the pen will be sold separately. The Remarkable 2 costs $547 USD with a pen and magnetic cover. So right now the PineNote is ~$150 cheaper, but once they start selling the accessories separately, I'm expecting it to be around $50-$100 cheaper than the R2. Still a good difference, but it's not as competitive price-wise as people think. Edit: Not that price is all that matters, I'm super excited to have a proper Linux e-ink device!

nafizh 5y ago

Not sure from reading the post, but does it have a backlight? I love my Remarkable 2 to death, but the only thing that bugs me is I cannot read something at night when the lights are off. A backlight will make it perfect.

chx 5y ago

Didn't we discuss this at https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28190756 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28190756 ?

ShrigmaMale 5y ago

So does the Kindle. I like the idea of a "freer" device but it is worth note to any current Kindle user that with a jailbreak you can get the same Linux shell.