8 ms·

Power users mourn features lost in Windows 11 'simplification'

• tailspin2019 5y ago
  In the lovely bubble that I live in, the “power users” haven’t been using Windows for quite some time now. To Microsoft’s credit, they’ve made it incredibly easy for me, a .NET developer, to not have to use Windows any more. So I am, admittedly, grateful for that.
  • stillblue 5y ago
    I've got a few questions. 1) What OS/IDE combination do you use? 2) Is there any reason you've not switched to other languages that are most commonly found in non-windows environments? 3) How is the tooling around .NET diagnostics and memory profiling on the OS you use?
    • nvrspyx 5y ago
      They haven't replied yet, so I'll take a stab at their probable answer: 1. Any popular Linux distro (or macOS) and JetBrains' Rider 2. They are probably a .NET developer for their job. 3. JetBrains' tools, like dotTrace Profiler, work really well
      • tailspin2019 5y ago
        Yep you've nailed it. Thanks :-) (And yes it's macOS, and increasingly Linux (but not yet exclusively) for prod servers)
    • chunkyks 5y ago
      For me, 1) Linux and jetbrains rider 2) 30k sloc heavily v&v'd code? Why? The cost and effort would be insane, and, to MS' credit, the current .NET ecosystem is great. 3) First class citizen. Rider (and the other jetbrains stuff) is as good as any other I've used In my eyes, as someone who has been exclusively a Linux user since 1998, I now include C# in serious consideration for greenfield projects as well as legacy.
      • tailspin2019 5y ago
        Well said
    • tailspin2019 5y ago
      To add to the other replies (including the one on my behalf) - VS Code tooling is excellent too on Mac. It's one of the better Electron apps. Even Microsoft's own Visual Studio for Mac is getting better - but has a long way to go to match Rider.
      • jagger27 5y ago
        I’d go as far as to say that VS Code is the best Electron app.
    • ThePadawan 5y ago
      Not parent, but sorta want to pitch in on 2) C# is a lovely language. It also has quite a big standard library while not being 10 years behind everything like Java is. It also has quite good performance (speaking in a web development context) compared to other popular choices like Ruby and Python. I've personally only switched away from using C# in my free time because I was already writing C# during my day job, and that doesn't feel good (or look good on a CV).
  • darepublic 5y ago
    An old programming joke compared c# (ie .net) to a laser cannon strapped to a donkey, that oddly enough doesn't work as well without the donkey. Does this still ring true to you seeing as you are using the laser cannon sans donkey
    • tailspin2019 5y ago
      No it doesn't. The 2021 .NET ecosystem (post .NET Core transition) is a _very_ different beast. It now works better without the donkey IMHO. EDIT: In fact I wish they'd just shoot the damn donkey and focus more on the laser cannon.
      • after_care 5y ago
        Somewhere around .Net Core 2.1 C# became better without windows (although still best with MSSQL at that time.) The donkey still is important for legacy runtimes, which probably have many decades of lifespan left.
        • tailspin2019 5y ago
          > The donkey still is important for legacy runtimes, which probably have many decades of lifespan left. Yep you're quite right, and actually the fast-moving, high-churn transition to .NET Core has been tough on devs still working with (now) "legacy" .NET Framework apps - which as you say, will have many years of lifespan remaining if they still fit the purpose for which they were built. I don't envy those devs (and I do still have some legacy Framework stuff that I provide support for - but not for too much longer thankfully).
          • thrower123 5y ago
            It is a little frustrating seeing how quickly so many libraries, even first-party Microsoft ones, have ditched support for dotnet 4.8. There's an entire universe of enterprise stuff that hasn't caught up, or relies on features that have been dropped from future dotnet Core/5/6+ support.
  • chaircher 5y ago
    I definitely wouldn't consider myself a power user but I'm noping out once the Windows 10 machine I'm on reaches the end of it's life
• thrower123 5y ago
  Hopefully the people that have picked up Classic Shell are able to keep up with the changes when this settles out and unbreak the bad UI decisions that will be forced on us. https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/ https://open-shell.github.io/Open-Shell-Menu/
  • hulitu 5y ago
    Classic shell change just the start menu. The rest of the crap stays the same.
    • 51Cards 5y ago
      They also have modules that alter explorer as well (though I don't find them terribly useful). As an "old fogey" in the computer world Classic Shell is one of the first things I install on any Windows machine I set up for myself.
• triangleman83 5y ago
  LTT did a video review and there was a very simplified right click context menu that you could click "more options" and it returned to the Windows 10 style menu. That will be extremely painful to use if that is not customizable.
• criddell 5y ago
  All the simplifications that they mentioned seem reasonable to me. Wouldn't Power Users be regular users of things like keyboard shortcuts, AutoHotKey scripts, etc...? For example, 99% of my time is spent in seven or eight applications and use the Win-# key to jump between them. Win-1 is file explorer, Win-2 is web browser, Win-3 is email, etc... For lesser used things I hit the Win key and start typing the name of the thing I want and then hit enter as soon as it's highlighted. The organization or size of the Start menu is not important. The only feature I use that I would lose is small task bar icons, but that isn't exactly a showstopper for me. If the list is what Windows' most loyal users are complaining about, Microsoft must be doing a good job. If anything, I think these changes will affect more casual users who spend a lot of time inside the start menu.
  • zarmin 5y ago
    >Win-1 is file explorer, Win-2 is web browser, Win-3 is email, etc... Is this something you set up natively in windows? Or are you using AHK?
    • depaya 5y ago
      That's just default Windows functionality, the numbers correspond to the order of items on the task bar.
    • neppo 5y ago
      The numbers 1, 2, 3 refers to the task bar position. If you order the programs that way on your task bar, then you can access them with these shortcuts.
      • cowanon22 5y ago
        Lol, I've been using Windows for a long time and had no idea these shortcuts exist - I will probably use them all the time going forwards.
  • 51Cards 5y ago
    The loss of the small task bar icons will be annoying to me. I always fight to minimize UI real estate in my workspace, typically selecting the most compact / small offering that is still workable. I strongly prefer my task bar to remain visible but take up minimal space. I've become "used" to this problem though as UIs have all gone more and more finger friendly (read: big) over time. Definitely a good thing for the right use case, but please don't take away my option to get your application to be as non-instrusive as possible.
• amelius 5y ago
  When the iPhone 1 was introduced it was lacking many features, yet nobody complained while there were much more powerful phones on the market already.
  • wpm 5y ago
    Right but this isn’t Windows 1.0. Awful comparison.
    • hulitu 5y ago
      No. Windows 10 was windows 1.0.(same UI plus taskbar). Win 11 will be win 1.1.
  • Jtsummers 5y ago
    When the first iPhone was announced people did complain about its lack of features (no apps? no keyboard? no stylus? no handwriting recognition?). It was a step backward in many ways for those used to Blackberry and Palm devices. However, it was the opening up of the smartphone (though was the first version really a smartphone?) market to a broader audience. It wasn't a regression of an existing Apple product (they had no product equivalent to it yet, unless you go back in time to the non-phone Newton). Windows 11 is a continuation of an existing product and meant to replace it. Regressions (real or imagined) will get lamentations because, well, they're regressions.
  • hackmiester 5y ago
    I recall that a ton of people complained about this, actually...
• wpm 5y ago
  Quite happy to stay on 10 until 2025.
  • b0tzzzzzzman 5y ago
    And past then.
• CodeGlitch 5y ago
  Windows 10 doesn't feel finished. Why are they already moving to 11?
  • smt88 5y ago
    Other than the bifurcated settings, what feels unfinished? I've read that 11 will actually fix and unify a lot of those disjointed things left in the OS too.
    • CodeGlitch 5y ago
      > I've read that 11 will actually fix and unify a lot of those disjointed things left in the OS too. But that's what I mean. 10 is unfinished. They could do those things in 10.
      • thaumasiotes 5y ago
        As I recall, 10 is the final version and all future updates are supposed to occur in 10. ;D
        • hulitu 5y ago
          10 is the final 10 version. 11 is a new version.
          • thaumasiotes 5y ago
            The announcement at the release of 10 was that 10 was the final version of Windows, not that it was the final version of Windows 10.
  • tompazourek 5y ago
    After many years of Mac OS X, Apple released macOS 11. So naturally, Microsoft has to follow.
• minikites 5y ago
  This is too bad. Apple taking the "appliance" path with their computers makes me wish Microsoft would lean into power user features and customization options to play to the strengths and appeal of Windows. I don't think trying to be a worse version of MacOS is a good strategy.
  • logicalmonster 5y ago
    Windows is sort of the default computer choice for a lot of normal, non-technical people, so I can understand that Microsoft wants to simplify things for them by taking some inspiration from MacOS. The problem is that Windows is also used by many businesses, network admins, and tech enthusiasts too. These users are in conflict. What Microsoft should be doing in my opinion is using its Windows Home and Windows Professional packages to divide the complexity. Windows Home users can have the simplified experience, and Windows Pro users can have the full power. Wouldn't that make everybody happy?
    • minikites 5y ago
      >Windows is sort of the default computer choice for a lot of normal, non-technical people, so I can understand that Microsoft wants to simplify things for them by taking some inspiration from MacOS. That's a really good point and I agree with your solution. I doubt Microsoft would want to do the work involved in creating essentially two versions of Windows, though.
      • Jtsummers 5y ago
        They did it before, and then unified it. The Win95 line had a distinct core compared to the NT line. It was unified under XP. XP had multiple editions (home, professional, a couple others). I no longer recall the major differences, but I think the big one was that professional supported corporate provisioning while Home did not (which meant if you were a nerd like me and had a home LDAP server Home couldn't use the login information from it, IIRC). However, I don't recall the user interfaces being fundamentally different between those versions. And that's what they'd need now if they wanted a smartphonified desktop OS for the "average home user" (whatever that means) and the now over 25-year old interface for professionals.
• bloopernova 5y ago
  I gave up on Windows after version 11 got pushed to my personal workstation. I had been using the insiders build that updates weekly. I loathed that I was getting app suggestions and ads, and there was a greater loss of control over the operating system. Switched to Fedora latest, haven't looked back.
  • FridayoLeary 5y ago
    They shouldn't be trying to push "apps". I want heavyweight programs and software not cheesy-sounding "apps". Not to mention being gently prodded at every turn to Microsofts own uninspiring ecosystem like i'm stupid.
  • thaumasiotes 5y ago
    > I loathed that I was getting app suggestions and ads, and there was a greater loss of control over the operating system. While it is certainly loathsome, that's not a new feature in Windows 11.
• Egoist 5y ago
  The only thing i really hated is how they pushed their new right click menu. they still don’t want to pick between their UI. Using the new unfinished UI content to navigate to the old one is just stupid.
• flerchin 5y ago
  This is why we skip every other Windows.
• charonn0 5y ago
  I barely tolerate Windows 10. Windows 11 sounds like it might be the final nail in the coffin.
• coldacid 5y ago
  I'm very glad that Microsoft believes that none of my computers are "good" enough for Windows 11. I'm going to ride Win10 as long as I can, then it's probably off to BSD or Haiku.
• FridayoLeary 5y ago
  Windows vista had cute options to make the UI look more like older versions of windows. I thought it looked hideous, but i still wonder why MS don't consider it for Windows 11, to let you "change" it to Windows 7 or Xp.
  • yodon 5y ago
    The cost to test, support, internationalize, and document those variants would dwarf whatever "value" they might provide.
• whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  Honestly Microsoft really needs to stop listening to this vocal minority. - This group is why Windows had a trash terminal that didn't even have a right click menu until recently. - This group is why Windows Explorer is identical to how it was almost 2 decades ago, with the same terrible search and still things like choking when it encounters a folder of MP3s and still unable to handle folders with 1000+ items without choking and loading in new sets every few pages of scroll. - This group is why resizing windows still has glitching and tearing. - This group is why most of the admin and system tools are still designed for 800zx600 screens and why device manager flickers and completely redraws just to add 1 item to the tree display. Stop listening to this group, Apple and Linux have been able to forge ahead and build modern powerful interfaces that actually utilize the hardware properly because they've been able to ignore the screams every time something that is 20 years old changed.
  • macspoofing 5y ago
    I haven't met anyone that didn't want Microsoft to have a better default terminal.
  • datavirtue 5y ago
    I agree...explorer absolutely sucks for what it is. Then I swing over to my other desk and encounter Finder...no wonder Microsoft hasn't bothered to fix explorer...no competition.
• macspoofing 5y ago
  The fact that the toolbar cannot be repositioned to the top of the screen - really sucks for me.
• 2Gkashmiri 5y ago
  cool. they must be following gnome then
  • yoyohello13 5y ago
    And Gnome if following Apple. All roads lead to Mac these days it seems.
• neverywhere 5y ago
  Microsoft is trapped by its own success. It is used all over the place and these old uses are hamstringing its ability to innovate because the new OS may not meet the needs of all of its previous use cases. This has been Microsoft's predicament since probably 2000.
  • AlexandrB 5y ago
    I'm not sure there's any need to "innovate" on the UI in this case. It's a stable, mature product refined for >30 years to suit the desktop use case and billions of people are familiar with it and its metaphors. There's plenty of room for innovation on new features, but why mess with what works UI wise? Seems like change for change's sake.
    • tailspin2019 5y ago
      I agree, especially if you compare it to Apple's approach of small, steady, iterative tweaks to the UI. You can still keep the OS looking fresh and up-to-date without completely reengineering the UI with every OS generation. Especially as this "complete reengineering" was so so so much worse each time, with additional "new" layers of (incomplete) UI being added on top of legacy UI that would inexplicably still be there. Simply the worst of all worlds. I'm a big fan of the old Windows 2000 era UI (which partly, amazingly, still exists today), but I have no desire for it to stay around if they can just come up with something fully cohesive and all-encompassing to *fully* replace it with.
• jcranberry 5y ago
  Been using windows 11 for a bit for a while on the dev channel. Seems fine. Only thing that annoyed me was the context menu. I think fairly recently they added the "more options" which expands it to have everything that was there before which is slightly annoying but still fine. Overall I think 10 felt kind of amateurish and perhaps even a bit gaudy and I think 11 looks better. I prefer the new start menu as well.
• maydup-nem 5y ago
  > Start," and it was redesigned (as was Windows 8) by taking inspiration from smartphones Just exactly how braindead do you have to be to "take inspiration from smartphones" when deveping a PC-centric OS? As it's all going, it seems like we are going to have smartphone-like PCs a lot sooner than PC-like smartphones. Anyhow, good thing I am on Linux.
  • qalmakka 5y ago
    More than something out of a mobile OS, it quite looks to me like some launcher I've seen on Linux (I don't remember which one was, I've been using Plasma for too long).
  • traverseda 5y ago
    Are you using Gnome 3?
    • maydup-nem 5y ago
      Nope, stumpwm. Before that I was using i3. Never even bothered with a DE when I jumped ships.
  • tenebrisalietum 5y ago
    The plan was to have the same exact OS on desktops and phones. Around the time Windows RT came out (which was a result of their Windows-on-ARM stuff), that's when they finally stopped using WinCE on their phone hardware and moved to the NT kernel. Of course that's all moot now since they've given up on phones.
    • maydup-nem 5y ago
      That's good to know, OK, same OS, but keeping the same interface? > Of course that's all moot now since they've given up on phones. What I rather had in mind was not the interface, but some other things which are "normal" to have on phones: forced updates, impossible to aquire root rights with factory OS, pre-installed shit apps, ads (like on factory-fresh Xiomi, out of the box). So when I saw "ads" and I know the updates are forced, that's where I meant PCs are becoming more like smartphones. That smartphones are unlikely to become more like PCs is an issue of hardware.
• bigphishy 5y ago
  Fuck Windows.
• datavirtue 5y ago
  Much Ado about nothing. Hit windows key, type a few characters, smash the ENTER key. I never even look at the start menu. Don't encourage them by starting debates over "features." The start menu should damn near read my mind and get out of the way after serving my needs without requiring that I squint at the screen. Windows 7 was absolute perfection and then it went downhill after that (lightening fast, typing a character or two presented exactly what I needed every time). They have even broken this core feature several times in Windows 10 by cramming in complexity.
• CozyBearNotSoy 5y ago
  This is so irritating. It's like nobody does actual work on computers anymore so UI changes which break muscle/visual memory (and consequently "flow") focus group well.
• t0bia_s 5y ago
  I hope Open Shell will work on Win11 too.
• simonblack 5y ago
  'Simplification' is a word used to hide the fact that there isn't enough funding available to retain sufficient maintenance of those features.