7 ms·

That's not exactly true. It's not that an undergraduate degree is worthless, but it's become pretty standard. You may not stand above the rest with just a degre

That's not exactly true. It's not that an undergraduate degree is worthless, but it's become pretty standard. You may not stand above the rest with just a degree, but you certainly fall below the rest without one. I don't mean this from an intelligence or skill perspective, some of the smartest people I know don't have college degrees. But when the big companies are recruiting from college career fairs or listing it as a job requirement, you can and will be passed over for jobs because you don't have one.

gambiting 5y ago
I have a friend who worked for 5 years at a big consultancy company and he got stonewalled for getting promoted to a team lead role because he didn't have a masters degree. Like, he was getting top marks every year at performance review, clearly knew how to do the job, but some internal policy somewhere said that you can't be a lead without a masters degree, sorry. He did manage to arrange with them that they would pay for him to take a 1-year old masters in CS in his own spare time, and if he passes he would be promoted - and he was. Still, I'd say it was an absolute waste of time and he ended up switching companies a year later anyway.
- gamesbrainiac 5y ago
  That might me the case at larger consultancies. Also, some jobs even require a PhD, because it is super specialized. But overall, the ROI of degrees have plummeted. A friend of mine finished a Mechanical Engineering degree and couldn't find decent paying work for 2 years. He then moved onto website design.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Your friend may have struggled but overall Mechanical Engineering is one of the top 10 highest salary college majors. Most graduates are doing pretty well. https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/ https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/
    - coliveira 5y ago
      The ones that get jobs, you mean.
      - bilbo0s 5y ago
        Almost didn't catch the fact that the data he pointed out only really counts people who actually got jobs. What kids need nowadays is to know which majors generate the largest percentage of graduates who get work in their respective fields. That would be a better indicator of your chances of being hired after college. It does most of these kids no good to know that a given type of engineer can make 150k right out of college, if less than 2% of them are actually able to secure work in the field right out of college. In fact, I'd wager that prior to going into a field, most kids would rather know about the "less than 2% are able to secure work" part rather than the "150K starting salary" part.
- fridif 5y ago
  Your friend was working for a bureaucratic company. Source: I know plenty of engineers without any formal degrees working for big money at real companies.
  - sandworm101 5y ago
    If they dont have formal degrees, then "engineer" is a loose term. They would not be professional engineers (PE/PEng).
    - xkqd 5y ago
      Saying that here will be unpopular. But it’s important to keep in mind that in many countries “engineer” is a protected term with qualification requirements and not simply a job title.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - rendall 5y ago
        There is no software engineer professional accreditation, the way there is for, say, civil engineer
    - Zigurd 5y ago
      Unpopular idea, but that is why I use the word "engineer" sparingly. Engineers doing real engineering is becoming a smaller part of making tech products, especially software. Software developers can be at least as highly skilled and intelligent as can be engineers, but, most of the time, they are engaged in a highly skilled craft rather than engineering. Making software is sometimes more creative and more integrative than engineering.
      - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
        Also software can change radically in ways physical engineering doesn't - we may continue to make refinements to steel alloys, but you won't come in to work tomorrow and discover that everyone is now building bridges out of glass.
- nradov 5y ago
  A Master's degree is what you make of it. A student who only wants the credential for short-term career purposes can skate through without much work or learning. But if you have it the opportunity to attend then why not put in some effort and learn interesting, challenging topics? I find that usually opens up unexpected opportunities later. It's a bit silly for employers to focus on arbitrary educational credentials instead of actual ability. But on the other hand for large organizations managing thousands of employees it's challenging to treat everyone as a unique individual. Some level of forced standardization is the only way to make it work efficiently at scale.
- HelloMcFly 5y ago
  At a consultancy, credentials you can market when "selling" your consultants is part of the job. Depending on the field, a certain level of accredited knowledge (i.e., from a degree, or certification perhaps) is part of how the bill-rate is justified for employees at given levels. We don't have an education lock on certain roles/levels at the company I work for, but we do have roles at certain levels that require a given certification no matter how proficient one is in the specified tech. This isn't a small-brain move that misses the forest of knowledge for the trees of credentials, but a recognition that it will be more challenging to staff that employee at a given level without it.
  - karaterobot 5y ago
    > This isn't a small-brain move that misses the forest of knowledge for the trees of credentials It is a second-order small-brain move: the clients are the ones missing the forest for the trees, while your company is just going with the flow. I get it, my company did the same thing, but in the end it's one of those "how business is done" things that add together to create a culture we all freely admit makes no sense.
    - HelloMcFly 5y ago
      I think viewed uncharitably, it makes no sense. But I think it is plenty logical on its own. The reality is my org. - and many like it - have choices. We're not choosing between an incompetent person with a relevant credential and a competent person without one, we're choosing among many competent individuals (as far as we've assessed), and verifiable (marketable) indicators of competence beyond us "vouching" for them is an extremely valuable resource. It may not be ideal for a given person's career, but I don't think it has that much effect on our clients' outcomes. I'm sure there have been exceptions to this, and firms that aren't as confident in the capabilities of their people may suffer more.
  - Aeolun 5y ago
    > part of how the bill-rate is justified for employees at given levels “This guy is absolute garbage, but he has a masters degree, so we charge more for him.”
- lelanthran 5y ago
  > I have a friend who worked for 5 years at a big consultancy company and he got stonewalled for getting promoted to a team lead role because he didn't have a masters degree. Like, he was getting top marks every year at performance review, clearly knew how to do the job, but some internal policy somewhere said that you can't be a lead without a masters degree, sorry. Well, that's part of the job - are you able to figure out what needs to be done to reach the objective, and then do that? No? Well, no promotion for you. > He did manage to arrange with them that they would pay for him to take a 1-year old masters in CS in his own spare time, and if he passes he would be promoted - and he was. Seems like your friend did figure out what hurdles to jump. Part of the reason that employers require advanced degrees is so that they are assured that the individual in question can figure out what steps need to be taken to fulfill an objective, and then take those steps.
  - saxonww 5y ago
    This is the common refrain, but I think it's equally likely that it boils down to "I did this, so you should have to do this, too."
    - lelanthran 5y ago
      > This is the common refrain, but I think it's equally likely that it boils down to "I did this, so you should have to do this, too." The reason is probably irrelevant: the organisation tells you what steps to take to get a promotion. If you fail to take those steps they consider you unsuitable for the promotion, not because they consider those steps to prove your capability, but because you have demonstrated an unwillingness to meet the minimum requirements. Why the minimum requirements are what they are is irrelevant.
  - ruined 5y ago
    >Part of the reason that employers require advanced degrees is so that they are assured that the individual in question can figure out what steps need to be taken to fulfill an objective, and then take those steps. it seems like if some individual has been working with you for years, you should probably have access to better metrics for this than degree/no degree, such as personal acquaintance and familiarity
- newobj 5y ago
  Is there a more worthless degree than a CS MS? No offense to anyone who has one, only my condolences.
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    I disagree. By that logic any CS degree is worthless. I have two years of college under my belt but work as a lead engineer at a well funded startup. I didn't need college to get good but that doesn't mean it doesn't help 90% of people to do so. I imagine that same is true of a masters degree, certain people will definitely benefit from it.
- Fiahil 5y ago
  In France you can get a degree (or at least an equivalent) from professional experience. You have to go through skill validation for that!
- majormajor 5y ago
  This is certainly a common thing at large companies, but it also is one that goes back ten to twenty years, possibly more. Millenials hit this frequently, it's not just a Gen Z change.
- kbenson 5y ago
  > He did manage to arrange with them that they would pay for him to take a 1-year old masters in CS in his own spare time, and if he passes he would be promoted - and he was. Well, at least he scored a degree out of it. I'm torn on this. I'm not sure I see it all that different than if they wanted to make sure someone they were moving into a managerial role had knowledge to back it up, and wanted them to take managerial courses. It's good that the company paid for the courses, a bit less good that it was in personal time (but it's also theoretically beneficial for the person and isn't tied to the company, so I don't fault that much). If they outright offer this path in in this situation and it doesn't have to be brought up by the employee, I think that's a pretty acceptable solution to requiring that degree for the position, if the company thinks it's really important to have for some reason.
bobthechef 5y ago
Worthless? Probably depends on the degree. Miseducation is worse than the absence of education. STEM at least has some market value, but man does not live by bread alone and market value alone does not elevate the university above the level of trade school. Trade schools are a good thing. Turning universities into glorified trade schools (which they are) is not. People need more of the intangible but true. A consumerist society is condemned to wallow in mediocrity and misery. It does not rise to the level of human dignity and maintains a level of existence better suited to worms than men.
- jimbokun 5y ago
  American universities do not really seem to be playing the role of exploring deep questions or search for meaning or knowledge for knowledge sake, either. It's mostly about expanding the gravy train of administrative staff and shiny new dormitories and eating facilities and gyms, alongside a narrow ideological political indoctrination with little enthusiasm for debate or considering unpopular opinions. Without the trade school aspect it's difficult to see what value they still provide.
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    You've never been to an american university, have you?
    - jimbokun 5y ago
      Graduated from one.
- treesknees 5y ago
  You may get as philosophical as you want on the topic of whether degrees are necessary. As someone who did college recruiting for my company I can say first hand that degrees don't mean anything about someone's skillset. I've talked to hundreds of students with a 4.0 and a degree that couldn't tell me the Big-O of a hash vs searching a list. But if you are working in a field where the job requirements list a bachelor's degree and you don't have one, you are automatically at the bottom of the list. If I have 3 positions open and 25 similar candidates, things like fulfilling the job requirements (like having a degree) start coming into play. Very obviously if you are working in a field that does not list that as a requirement, then of course you don't need one. But it's still not worthless. As someone pointed out in another thread, if you're trying to move up in a company, a degree can be the differentiator.
wernercd 5y ago
Add to that the fact that not all degrees are equal... there are plenty of "degree factories" that pump out useless people who don't know anything marketable. Having a degree is, as you've said, a requirement (I have a 2 year... I'm out on some jobs because of it)... Not having a degree is bad. Having a useless degree is worse as you now (generally) have the debt of a paper that means nothing.
- foolinaround 5y ago
  > Having a useless degree Do you mean a degree in weird subjects, or from non-famous colleges?
  - xwdv 5y ago
    Weird subjects.
  - wernercd 5y ago
    Personally, I'd say "weird subjects" - or, if not weird, not marketable. The proverbial "basket weaving" degree or stuff like that. I think the more common "liberal arts" line as well. https://blog.prepscholar.com/worst-college-majors https://blog.prepscholar.com/worst-college-majors https://www.salary.com/passages/8-college-degrees-with-the-worst-return-on-investment/3/ https://www.salary.com/passages/8-college-degrees-with-the-w... https://www.ownyourownfuture.com/most-useless-degrees/ https://www.ownyourownfuture.com/most-useless-degrees/ What I find interesting in these articles (and others) is CompSci is listed as a bad investment... oversaturation and what not.
the_only_law 5y ago
> But when the big companies are recruiting from college career fairs or listing it as a job requirement, you can and will be passed over for jobs because you don't have one. I’ve started to get the impression that even in software development there are certain domains or industries you would be hard pressed to get into without a degree, simply because majority of entry levels are done through campus recruitment.
Oras 5y ago
To confirm your point, Google Jobs has introduced a beta field called "educationRequirements" which can be any of the following values: - high school. - associate degree. - bachelor degree. - professional certificate. - postgraduate degree. Source: https://developers.google.com/search/docs/advanced/structured-data/job-posting#education-and-experience-properties-beta https://developers.google.com/search/docs/advanced/structure...
echelon 5y ago
You don't need a degree for software, but you do for certain subfields. You won't be able to do biotech or practice law or medicine without credentials.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  There are (a few, but they exist) states that will allow you to practice law without a JD - you have to pass the bar, though.
ashtonkem 5y ago
Generally my takeaway from stories about working for big consultancies is exclusively “don’t work for big consultancies”.

gambiting 5y ago

I have a friend who worked for 5 years at a big consultancy company and he got stonewalled for getting promoted to a team lead role because he didn't have a masters degree. Like, he was getting top marks every year at performance review, clearly knew how to do the job, but some internal policy somewhere said that you can't be a lead without a masters degree, sorry. He did manage to arrange with them that they would pay for him to take a 1-year old masters in CS in his own spare time, and if he passes he would be promoted - and he was. Still, I'd say it was an absolute waste of time and he ended up switching companies a year later anyway.

gamesbrainiac 5y ago
That might me the case at larger consultancies. Also, some jobs even require a PhD, because it is super specialized. But overall, the ROI of degrees have plummeted. A friend of mine finished a Mechanical Engineering degree and couldn't find decent paying work for 2 years. He then moved onto website design.
- nradov 5y ago
  Your friend may have struggled but overall Mechanical Engineering is one of the top 10 highest salary college majors. Most graduates are doing pretty well. https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/ https://cew.georgetown.edu/cew-reports/valueofcollegemajors/
  - coliveira 5y ago
    The ones that get jobs, you mean.
    - bilbo0s 5y ago
      Almost didn't catch the fact that the data he pointed out only really counts people who actually got jobs. What kids need nowadays is to know which majors generate the largest percentage of graduates who get work in their respective fields. That would be a better indicator of your chances of being hired after college. It does most of these kids no good to know that a given type of engineer can make 150k right out of college, if less than 2% of them are actually able to secure work in the field right out of college. In fact, I'd wager that prior to going into a field, most kids would rather know about the "less than 2% are able to secure work" part rather than the "150K starting salary" part.
fridif 5y ago
Your friend was working for a bureaucratic company. Source: I know plenty of engineers without any formal degrees working for big money at real companies.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  If they dont have formal degrees, then "engineer" is a loose term. They would not be professional engineers (PE/PEng).
  - xkqd 5y ago
    Saying that here will be unpopular. But it’s important to keep in mind that in many countries “engineer” is a protected term with qualification requirements and not simply a job title.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - rendall 5y ago
      There is no software engineer professional accreditation, the way there is for, say, civil engineer
  - Zigurd 5y ago
    Unpopular idea, but that is why I use the word "engineer" sparingly. Engineers doing real engineering is becoming a smaller part of making tech products, especially software. Software developers can be at least as highly skilled and intelligent as can be engineers, but, most of the time, they are engaged in a highly skilled craft rather than engineering. Making software is sometimes more creative and more integrative than engineering.
    - blacksmith_tb 5y ago
      Also software can change radically in ways physical engineering doesn't - we may continue to make refinements to steel alloys, but you won't come in to work tomorrow and discover that everyone is now building bridges out of glass.
nradov 5y ago
A Master's degree is what you make of it. A student who only wants the credential for short-term career purposes can skate through without much work or learning. But if you have it the opportunity to attend then why not put in some effort and learn interesting, challenging topics? I find that usually opens up unexpected opportunities later. It's a bit silly for employers to focus on arbitrary educational credentials instead of actual ability. But on the other hand for large organizations managing thousands of employees it's challenging to treat everyone as a unique individual. Some level of forced standardization is the only way to make it work efficiently at scale.
HelloMcFly 5y ago
At a consultancy, credentials you can market when "selling" your consultants is part of the job. Depending on the field, a certain level of accredited knowledge (i.e., from a degree, or certification perhaps) is part of how the bill-rate is justified for employees at given levels. We don't have an education lock on certain roles/levels at the company I work for, but we do have roles at certain levels that require a given certification no matter how proficient one is in the specified tech. This isn't a small-brain move that misses the forest of knowledge for the trees of credentials, but a recognition that it will be more challenging to staff that employee at a given level without it.
- karaterobot 5y ago
  > This isn't a small-brain move that misses the forest of knowledge for the trees of credentials It is a second-order small-brain move: the clients are the ones missing the forest for the trees, while your company is just going with the flow. I get it, my company did the same thing, but in the end it's one of those "how business is done" things that add together to create a culture we all freely admit makes no sense.
  - HelloMcFly 5y ago
    I think viewed uncharitably, it makes no sense. But I think it is plenty logical on its own. The reality is my org. - and many like it - have choices. We're not choosing between an incompetent person with a relevant credential and a competent person without one, we're choosing among many competent individuals (as far as we've assessed), and verifiable (marketable) indicators of competence beyond us "vouching" for them is an extremely valuable resource. It may not be ideal for a given person's career, but I don't think it has that much effect on our clients' outcomes. I'm sure there have been exceptions to this, and firms that aren't as confident in the capabilities of their people may suffer more.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  > part of how the bill-rate is justified for employees at given levels “This guy is absolute garbage, but he has a masters degree, so we charge more for him.”
lelanthran 5y ago
> I have a friend who worked for 5 years at a big consultancy company and he got stonewalled for getting promoted to a team lead role because he didn't have a masters degree. Like, he was getting top marks every year at performance review, clearly knew how to do the job, but some internal policy somewhere said that you can't be a lead without a masters degree, sorry. Well, that's part of the job - are you able to figure out what needs to be done to reach the objective, and then do that? No? Well, no promotion for you. > He did manage to arrange with them that they would pay for him to take a 1-year old masters in CS in his own spare time, and if he passes he would be promoted - and he was. Seems like your friend did figure out what hurdles to jump. Part of the reason that employers require advanced degrees is so that they are assured that the individual in question can figure out what steps need to be taken to fulfill an objective, and then take those steps.
- saxonww 5y ago
  This is the common refrain, but I think it's equally likely that it boils down to "I did this, so you should have to do this, too."
  - lelanthran 5y ago
    > This is the common refrain, but I think it's equally likely that it boils down to "I did this, so you should have to do this, too." The reason is probably irrelevant: the organisation tells you what steps to take to get a promotion. If you fail to take those steps they consider you unsuitable for the promotion, not because they consider those steps to prove your capability, but because you have demonstrated an unwillingness to meet the minimum requirements. Why the minimum requirements are what they are is irrelevant.
- ruined 5y ago
  >Part of the reason that employers require advanced degrees is so that they are assured that the individual in question can figure out what steps need to be taken to fulfill an objective, and then take those steps. it seems like if some individual has been working with you for years, you should probably have access to better metrics for this than degree/no degree, such as personal acquaintance and familiarity
newobj 5y ago
Is there a more worthless degree than a CS MS? No offense to anyone who has one, only my condolences.
- edgyquant 5y ago
  I disagree. By that logic any CS degree is worthless. I have two years of college under my belt but work as a lead engineer at a well funded startup. I didn't need college to get good but that doesn't mean it doesn't help 90% of people to do so. I imagine that same is true of a masters degree, certain people will definitely benefit from it.
Fiahil 5y ago
In France you can get a degree (or at least an equivalent) from professional experience. You have to go through skill validation for that!
majormajor 5y ago
This is certainly a common thing at large companies, but it also is one that goes back ten to twenty years, possibly more. Millenials hit this frequently, it's not just a Gen Z change.
kbenson 5y ago
> He did manage to arrange with them that they would pay for him to take a 1-year old masters in CS in his own spare time, and if he passes he would be promoted - and he was. Well, at least he scored a degree out of it. I'm torn on this. I'm not sure I see it all that different than if they wanted to make sure someone they were moving into a managerial role had knowledge to back it up, and wanted them to take managerial courses. It's good that the company paid for the courses, a bit less good that it was in personal time (but it's also theoretically beneficial for the person and isn't tied to the company, so I don't fault that much). If they outright offer this path in in this situation and it doesn't have to be brought up by the employee, I think that's a pretty acceptable solution to requiring that degree for the position, if the company thinks it's really important to have for some reason.

bobthechef 5y ago

Worthless? Probably depends on the degree. Miseducation is worse than the absence of education. STEM at least has some market value, but man does not live by bread alone and market value alone does not elevate the university above the level of trade school. Trade schools are a good thing. Turning universities into glorified trade schools (which they are) is not. People need more of the intangible but true. A consumerist society is condemned to wallow in mediocrity and misery. It does not rise to the level of human dignity and maintains a level of existence better suited to worms than men.

jimbokun 5y ago
American universities do not really seem to be playing the role of exploring deep questions or search for meaning or knowledge for knowledge sake, either. It's mostly about expanding the gravy train of administrative staff and shiny new dormitories and eating facilities and gyms, alongside a narrow ideological political indoctrination with little enthusiasm for debate or considering unpopular opinions. Without the trade school aspect it's difficult to see what value they still provide.
- edgyquant 5y ago
  You've never been to an american university, have you?
  - jimbokun 5y ago
    Graduated from one.
treesknees 5y ago
You may get as philosophical as you want on the topic of whether degrees are necessary. As someone who did college recruiting for my company I can say first hand that degrees don't mean anything about someone's skillset. I've talked to hundreds of students with a 4.0 and a degree that couldn't tell me the Big-O of a hash vs searching a list. But if you are working in a field where the job requirements list a bachelor's degree and you don't have one, you are automatically at the bottom of the list. If I have 3 positions open and 25 similar candidates, things like fulfilling the job requirements (like having a degree) start coming into play. Very obviously if you are working in a field that does not list that as a requirement, then of course you don't need one. But it's still not worthless. As someone pointed out in another thread, if you're trying to move up in a company, a degree can be the differentiator.

wernercd 5y ago

Add to that the fact that not all degrees are equal... there are plenty of "degree factories" that pump out useless people who don't know anything marketable. Having a degree is, as you've said, a requirement (I have a 2 year... I'm out on some jobs because of it)... Not having a degree is bad. Having a useless degree is worse as you now (generally) have the debt of a paper that means nothing.

foolinaround 5y ago
> Having a useless degree Do you mean a degree in weird subjects, or from non-famous colleges?
- xwdv 5y ago
  Weird subjects.
- wernercd 5y ago
  Personally, I'd say "weird subjects" - or, if not weird, not marketable. The proverbial "basket weaving" degree or stuff like that. I think the more common "liberal arts" line as well. https://blog.prepscholar.com/worst-college-majors https://blog.prepscholar.com/worst-college-majors https://www.salary.com/passages/8-college-degrees-with-the-worst-return-on-investment/3/ https://www.salary.com/passages/8-college-degrees-with-the-w... https://www.ownyourownfuture.com/most-useless-degrees/ https://www.ownyourownfuture.com/most-useless-degrees/ What I find interesting in these articles (and others) is CompSci is listed as a bad investment... oversaturation and what not.

the_only_law 5y ago

> But when the big companies are recruiting from college career fairs or listing it as a job requirement, you can and will be passed over for jobs because you don't have one. I’ve started to get the impression that even in software development there are certain domains or industries you would be hard pressed to get into without a degree, simply because majority of entry levels are done through campus recruitment.

Oras 5y ago

To confirm your point, Google Jobs has introduced a beta field called "educationRequirements" which can be any of the following values: - high school. - associate degree. - bachelor degree. - professional certificate. - postgraduate degree. Source: https://developers.google.com/search/docs/advanced/structured-data/job-posting#education-and-experience-properties-beta https://developers.google.com/search/docs/advanced/structure...

echelon 5y ago

You don't need a degree for software, but you do for certain subfields. You won't be able to do biotech or practice law or medicine without credentials.

FireBeyond 5y ago
There are (a few, but they exist) states that will allow you to practice law without a JD - you have to pass the bar, though.

ashtonkem 5y ago

Generally my takeaway from stories about working for big consultancies is exclusively “don’t work for big consultancies”.