7 ms·

The EU isn't doing anything to bitcoin. They have no ability to regulate bitcoin. They can make it traceable when it is held on kycd exchanges In their jurisdi

by anm89 5y ago

The EU isn't doing anything to bitcoin. They have no ability to regulate bitcoin. They can make it traceable when it is held on kycd exchanges In their jurisdiction. That is a big difference

bdcravens 5y ago
Any government can't regulate Bitcoin per se, but they can always regulate the intersection of their currency and Bitcoin. If they require banks to observe a whitelist of acceptable exchanges when honoring transfer requests, the banks will happily comply.
Daishiman 5y ago
They have the same ability to regulate it as they do cash transactions. Which is to say, people will still find workarounds if they really want to take a shot at it, but forget about transacting with legit companies and institutions unless you want the spotlight shone on you.
- ashwagary 5y ago
  Adding 1 additional p2p hop to transactions is trivially easy with Bitcoin and readily automatable. With 1 additional hop, you facilitate somebody's purchase of bitcoin and they pay for the services you need in fiat (usually at a discount). Good luck regulating that.
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    Oh you sweet summer child, tax agencies and financial investigators know the ins and outs about financial triangulations since the dawn of tax fraud. You think they're not going to ask you about it once you're on the spotlight for an audit?
    - ashwagary 5y ago
      How would anyone know that you are in fact transacting BTC at all (especially if it's anonymized)? The risk seems almost nonexistent unless you are buying really expensive services on a regular basis.
- anm89 5y ago
  The EU prints Euros. The EU does not in any direct way control production of bitcoin. Custody of the two assets has bordering on nothing in common. Exchange of the who assets has bordering on nothing in common. Conflating them is wildly innacurate.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Who's going to exchange euro for crypto, if all European banks are prohibited from touching it?
    - vimy 5y ago
      People can just buy what they want with crypto instead of exchanging it for euro or dollar.
      - tluyben2 5y ago
        Maybe for virtual items but how would physical items work? The baker has the same issue as you and the flower costs Euros even though the baker might except crypto. I can figure some complex ways but somewhere, because there are not enough people using crypto, it will get exchanged and there you will be caught. In this scenario you are actually doing something illegal; spending money you did not declare to the gov for KYC/AML, so you can still be traced via the baker who exchanged your payment to euros. And if you used Monero or whatever, you are now an actual criminal trying to hide their tracks. There would need to be a very large crowd accepting crypto for the crypto sake, not for the USD value to get anywhere here. Which is the dream of all the fans but this is not even close where crypto is currently and most govs are taking steps to prevent it getting there.
        ashwagary 5y ago
        Gift cards are anonymous bridges between the fiat and crypto world. Anyone can buy a $1000 Amazon gift card or 1000+ other gift cards instantly with no KYC. Currently, buying gift cards using the lightning network is faster than buying gift cards directly from merchants and there is no way Amazon or any other merchant can win the speed race using the traditional financial network.
imtringued 5y ago
They can't regulate bitcoin but they sure can discourage investors from putting in billions into Bitcoin. Considering that the growth story is based around those future investors it would be pretty bad news for Bitcoin if that flow of investors suddenly stopped.
snarf21 5y ago
Serious question: Couldn't they ban ISPs from connecting to known networks? A public blockchain must remain public and they can largely prevent that. They could (not saying they will) ban VPN connections to other countries.
- zarzavat 5y ago
  You don't need to connect to a blockchain to make a transaction. You just need to connect to someone who is connected to a blockchain. Big difference.
- bdcravens 5y ago
  Blockchain isn't where the concern is. It's where the exchanges interact with the banking system.
- askl56 5y ago
  The EU can't tell each country's ISPs what to ban or not. That is a matter for each country.
  - bserge 5y ago
    It's easier when most ISPs are owned by a handful of companies (looking at you, Telekom).
elric 5y ago
They don't need the ability to regulate bitcoin. They can just treat illegal exchanges as money launderers (or terrorism funders, or whatever else the go-to argument is today) and slap them with hefty fines. Anyone using these exchanges is committing a crime and can be treated accordingly. Anyone caught with large amounts of crypto can be treated as a criminal, the same way people who have large amounts of cash on them are treated. It's obviously harder to spot someone walking around with a hoard of crypto coins, no black briefcase required. This is just another tool in an already very expansive toolbox. All in the name of "security".
- vkou 5y ago
  There's no need to put scare quotes around security. Cryptocurrencies are mostly used for one of three things. 1. Paying ransomware. 2. Buying drugs. 3. Day-trading. That's it. There's no meaningful slice of the pie that goes to #4. Almost all of us can agree that #1 is illegal, many people and countries currently believe that #2 is illegal, and almost all of us can agree that people participating in #3 should probably pay taxes on their gains/get tax credits on their losses.
  - herbst 5y ago
    Why do you think this is true? I use crypto weekly here in Switzerland because it's comfortable, fast and has lower fees. I could even pay my taxes in some places. Then there are millions of people with no proper access to banking that highly benefit from crypto. But some people just think it's all about illegal things and trading.
  - nradov 5y ago
    #4 is, or has been, evading laws in China and other countries with tight currency controls. A wealthy Chinese citizen can't necessarily just transfer money to a foreign bank account. But he can purchase crypto mining hardware and electricity for local currency, then sell the resulting coins for convertible hard currency on foreign exchanges.
    - vkou 5y ago

by anm89 5y ago

The EU isn't doing anything to bitcoin. They have no ability to regulate bitcoin. They can make it traceable when it is held on kycd exchanges In their jurisdiction. That is a big difference

bdcravens 5y ago

Any government can't regulate Bitcoin per se, but they can always regulate the intersection of their currency and Bitcoin. If they require banks to observe a whitelist of acceptable exchanges when honoring transfer requests, the banks will happily comply.

Daishiman 5y ago

They have the same ability to regulate it as they do cash transactions. Which is to say, people will still find workarounds if they really want to take a shot at it, but forget about transacting with legit companies and institutions unless you want the spotlight shone on you.

ashwagary 5y ago
Adding 1 additional p2p hop to transactions is trivially easy with Bitcoin and readily automatable. With 1 additional hop, you facilitate somebody's purchase of bitcoin and they pay for the services you need in fiat (usually at a discount). Good luck regulating that.
- Daishiman 5y ago
  Oh you sweet summer child, tax agencies and financial investigators know the ins and outs about financial triangulations since the dawn of tax fraud. You think they're not going to ask you about it once you're on the spotlight for an audit?
  - ashwagary 5y ago
    How would anyone know that you are in fact transacting BTC at all (especially if it's anonymized)? The risk seems almost nonexistent unless you are buying really expensive services on a regular basis.
anm89 5y ago
The EU prints Euros. The EU does not in any direct way control production of bitcoin. Custody of the two assets has bordering on nothing in common. Exchange of the who assets has bordering on nothing in common. Conflating them is wildly innacurate.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Who's going to exchange euro for crypto, if all European banks are prohibited from touching it?
  - vimy 5y ago
    People can just buy what they want with crypto instead of exchanging it for euro or dollar.
    - tluyben2 5y ago
      Maybe for virtual items but how would physical items work? The baker has the same issue as you and the flower costs Euros even though the baker might except crypto. I can figure some complex ways but somewhere, because there are not enough people using crypto, it will get exchanged and there you will be caught. In this scenario you are actually doing something illegal; spending money you did not declare to the gov for KYC/AML, so you can still be traced via the baker who exchanged your payment to euros. And if you used Monero or whatever, you are now an actual criminal trying to hide their tracks. There would need to be a very large crowd accepting crypto for the crypto sake, not for the USD value to get anywhere here. Which is the dream of all the fans but this is not even close where crypto is currently and most govs are taking steps to prevent it getting there.
      - ashwagary 5y ago
        Gift cards are anonymous bridges between the fiat and crypto world. Anyone can buy a $1000 Amazon gift card or 1000+ other gift cards instantly with no KYC. Currently, buying gift cards using the lightning network is faster than buying gift cards directly from merchants and there is no way Amazon or any other merchant can win the speed race using the traditional financial network.

imtringued 5y ago

They can't regulate bitcoin but they sure can discourage investors from putting in billions into Bitcoin. Considering that the growth story is based around those future investors it would be pretty bad news for Bitcoin if that flow of investors suddenly stopped.

snarf21 5y ago

Serious question: Couldn't they ban ISPs from connecting to known networks? A public blockchain must remain public and they can largely prevent that. They could (not saying they will) ban VPN connections to other countries.

zarzavat 5y ago
You don't need to connect to a blockchain to make a transaction. You just need to connect to someone who is connected to a blockchain. Big difference.
bdcravens 5y ago
Blockchain isn't where the concern is. It's where the exchanges interact with the banking system.
askl56 5y ago
The EU can't tell each country's ISPs what to ban or not. That is a matter for each country.
- bserge 5y ago
  It's easier when most ISPs are owned by a handful of companies (looking at you, Telekom).

elric 5y ago

They don't need the ability to regulate bitcoin. They can just treat illegal exchanges as money launderers (or terrorism funders, or whatever else the go-to argument is today) and slap them with hefty fines. Anyone using these exchanges is committing a crime and can be treated accordingly. Anyone caught with large amounts of crypto can be treated as a criminal, the same way people who have large amounts of cash on them are treated. It's obviously harder to spot someone walking around with a hoard of crypto coins, no black briefcase required. This is just another tool in an already very expansive toolbox. All in the name of "security".

vkou 5y ago
There's no need to put scare quotes around security. Cryptocurrencies are mostly used for one of three things. 1. Paying ransomware. 2. Buying drugs. 3. Day-trading. That's it. There's no meaningful slice of the pie that goes to #4. Almost all of us can agree that #1 is illegal, many people and countries currently believe that #2 is illegal, and almost all of us can agree that people participating in #3 should probably pay taxes on their gains/get tax credits on their losses.
- herbst 5y ago
  Why do you think this is true? I use crypto weekly here in Switzerland because it's comfortable, fast and has lower fees. I could even pay my taxes in some places. Then there are millions of people with no proper access to banking that highly benefit from crypto. But some people just think it's all about illegal things and trading.
- nradov 5y ago
  #4 is, or has been, evading laws in China and other countries with tight currency controls. A wealthy Chinese citizen can't necessarily just transfer money to a foreign bank account. But he can purchase crypto mining hardware and electricity for local currency, then sell the resulting coins for convertible hard currency on foreign exchanges.
  - vkou 5y ago