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Afghan women forced from banking jobs as Taliban take control
- hitpointdrew 5y agoJesus Christ, so sad to see. I can't help but imagine what a wonderful place Afghanistan could have been had the Soviet backed 1978 coup been a failure. https://allthatsinteresting.com/1960s-afghanistan https://allthatsinteresting.com/1960s-afghanistan
- pasquinelli 5y agowell, the united states didn't have to fight the cold war. the idea that, because a leftwing revolution happens somewhere, the united states has to pour money and arms into a counter revolution is insane. even if it was a soviet vacked revolution: we did not have to be at war with the soviet union.
- sb057 5y agoInterestingly, there was talk after the American invasion of re-instating the (then-still living) former king of Afghanistan who ruled the country from 1933 to 1973 when he was overthrown in favor of a democracy. It's impossible to say if such a counterfactual could have possibly courted more legitimacy for the current government (thus bleeding Taliban support from the population), but it does make you wonder.
- cool_dude85 5y agoThe women of Afghanistan yearn to be ruled by a hereditary king. Think of how much legitimacy he has.
- powerapple 5y agosame as how Iran could be without US backed coup. All superpowers are bad for this world. But still, the world is still suffering from the mess last empire made. I don't know what to think for Afghanistan, a government without ability to maintain stability is not useful, and Taliban is a bit backward, and I don't know if we can expect them to change when they take full control of the country. With modern weapons, something like a revolution would be impossible to happen in any country, AND a government not through revolution really does not last.
- fhood 5y agoThis may be pedantic but there are success stories for installed govts. Although Japan is the only one I can think of off the top of my head.
- pessimizer 5y agoThe installed governments of aggressors who lost. Germany certainly didn't do too badly.
- powerapple 5y agoTrue. Japan was a successful western country before anyway. It was a united country, adapted western political system, even had a few colonies, it was a modern country. After the war, it kept its king, and Eisenhower really took the interests of Japan to his heart, the government was essentially the same with a different agenda. Normally the installed governments would work towards the interests of its patrons, not working for its people, that's when it starts to fail. I don't think Taliban would work for Afghanistan for the same reason, if they work for the benefit of their religion, not the benefit of their people, they will not succeed.
- s5300 5y agoBaghdad, centuries ago, had better medical policies than the United States does in 2021. Unfortunately, the mongols came and burnt everything to the ground/left the city a literal pool of blood. Makes for good reading in the 21st century I guess.
- stephen_g 5y agoInteresting that the article linked talks about “Pakistani-funded mujahideen rebels” who became the Taliban. Turns out there were some other countries involved in that funding… https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Cyclone
- pessimizer 5y ago> I can't help but imagine what a wonderful place Afghanistan could have been had the Soviet backed 1978 coup been a failure. Or if it had been an instant success, instead of the US pouring cash and arms in to keep the conflict going as long and destructively as possible. The Soviets didn't have a choice but to participate in a conflict on their border.
- warning26 5y agoIt's really too bad that seemingly no amount of resources could stabilize Afghanistan. As brutal as they are, it does make me wonder if Xinjiang-style re-education camps really are the only way to truly root out this kind of thing...
- kome 5y agoare you suggesting an ethic cleansing of Pashtun / Talibans à la Xinjiang style?
- powerapple 5y agoI think he means eliminating the extremists teaching. I don't think that can work for Afganistan. Chinese government provided tax breaks to lure companies to open factories in Xinjiang, the re-education camp is just a small part of the policies, you need to train people skills to have a normal job, the boring part of modern society. There is no hope for Afganistan.
- kome 5y agono, Xinjiang is ethnic cleansing: it's genocide. Let's not whitewash it please. For the curious: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-22278037
- powerapple 5y agoStop re-use words like Nazi, genocide, ethnic cleansing. You can invent new words, like the word terrorism, why not invent some new words for CCP. Would I trust BBC better because they were from the empire who colonized the world so they know bad things since they have the first hand experience? Britain tried to separate Tibet from China before the PRC. Is the situation perfect? I don't think so. Is it better than Afganistan? I believe so. We are happy with what it is, even though it is not perfect. Westerns think they can do better, tried in Iran, Iraq, Syria and Afganistan. I am happy with Xinjiang, and I hope it will develop further. For westerns look at difference cultures as exotic, they want them to stay the way they are, no modernization bullshit, just be whatever you are, be difference, otherwise, where do we go for exotic holidays. I don't think it is helpful in the long term
- NonContro 5y agoWe should overhaul all of our refugee programs to only take in women and girls, without the prospect of chain migration. Let the men stay behind to fix or fight the problems, and their women can return when safe.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- joefife 5y agoBecause obviously all men want to fight...?
- Johnyma22 5y agoAm I on Hacker News or Youtube...
- shadowgovt 5y agoHN is a bad platform for discussion of highly-charged political topics. FWIW, this is known, which is why it's also discouraged.
- my_usernam3 5y agoOk what do you think is a good online platform? I've yet to see one that promotes an open minded, fact driven, discussion about politics. Compared to my readings of reddit, FB, new's comment section, HN has been by far the best imo.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoIssue them visas and a path to citizenship in developed countries.
- Siira 5y agoThis will likely exacerbate the country’s situation, though it’s a pragmatic way to help the victims.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoIt drains the country of future conflict while supporting these victims. It brings the fight to developed countries on their terms and soil. You'll never win against the Taliban by fighting the war in Afghanistan, so you slowly transition through immigration policy the population base they subjugate.
- Johnyma22 5y agoFriends & Family might be a higher priority for them.
- s5300 5y agoWe (the US) offered interpreters who worked with our troops in the middle of the absolute shit a path to citizenship and then left them literally in the dust so that they and their families can be tortured and killed. Maybe the Euro Countries (or even Canada?) could be nicer, but the USA (politicians making the decisions that go in affect) clearly don't give the slightest fuck and haven't for decades.
- ClumsyPilot 5y agoThis absolutely accurate https://youtu.be/QplQL5eAxlY https://youtu.be/QplQL5eAxlY
- swiley 5y agoAlso legal citizenship/visas are a real crapshoot in the US due to the extreme (and by extreme I mean it sounds like hyperbole and would be hilarious if it weren't people's lives getting screwed around with) incompetence, slothfulness, and general unreliability of the USCIS. Most people who live here have never dealt with them and have no idea just how bad it really is. I think their interview process might include an IQ test with an upper limit for acceptable candidates.
- fallingknife 5y agoI was all for this withdrawal until I found out it was only 3000 soldiers that we had in Afghanistan. If 3000 soldiers can keep a whole country from going Taliban, then it seems worth it to keep them there.
- sobellian 5y agoThe thing is, they can't. Under those troop levels the Taliban was already taking more territory every year. The choice was between a US troop surge (for an indefinite period), a slow death, or a quick death.
- onepointsixC 5y agoThey never could have moved in mass as the moment they would US and Afghan aviation. But not only did US pull intel support, air support, they pulled logistic support so the Afghan aviation is in complete disrepair.
- msoad 5y agocomparing what's going on in Afghanistan to the Korean Peninsula and how the American forces helped South Korea become a prosperous country make me think the US has lost its core values about its role in the international scene.
- dtwest 5y agoAfghanistan and Korea are vastly different scenarios, perhaps the main difference is the situation the US put themselves in rather than a change of core values.
- tootie 5y agoYeah and Vietnam is why. Really, America as the world police was a pretty short-lived experiment. We had to be dragged in to WWII. We mostly sat out the Maoist revolution even though we did have a presence in China at the time. Korea ended up being politically fraught and the public just didn't have their heart in it. No one wanted to help a backwater Asian country. It's hard to sell a 70-year investment to help them become a first-world democracy when the outcome isn't guaranteed. Vietnam really broke a lot of people's spirits to the point that we carefully avoided nation building in the 1991 Gulf War. Our biggest success since Korea was the Balkan Wars which just aren't prominent in the public consciousness for some reason.
- narrator 5y agoAnyone find it funny how "The Handmaid's Tale" is present day reality in Afghanistan? Making that book about Christian Fundamentalists was such a stretch.
- Bhilai 5y agoIts not funny at all.
- wonderwonder 5y agoSure but its politically ok to attack Christianity and not Islam for some reason. We live in a very strange time. Culture warriors have decided who can be slandered and who cant and there cudgel is wielded very effectively via social media. I say this as someone who has no religion at all.
- fhood 5y ago"For some reason", for obvious reasons, given that in the years following 9/11 there was real backlash directed at muslims. I'm not saying it's fair but it's obvious what the difference is.
- not-a-terrorist 5y agoIslam empowers woman, unlike Christianity which oppresses woman. Get your facts straight: https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/the-islam-that-empowers-women/2013/03/08/4514b2c4-87fa-11e2-9d71-f0feafdd1394_story.html https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/the-islam-t...
- dang 5y agoWe've banned this account for using HN for religious flamewar. That's not what this site is for, regardless of which religion you're for or against. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- AnotherGoodName 5y ago
- lotsofpulp 5y agoWhat a monumental waste of money. Could have left after Osama was killed 10 years ago and nothing would be different.
- pjmlp 5y agoAnd life, how many people died for nothing?
- rvense 5y agoI was never a fan of this nor any other war, but 20 years is a long time, and despite all the bloodshed and suffering that has happened while the Americans (and soldiers from my own country) were there, that is 20 years where, amongst other things, many girls received an education that they would not otherwise have. Things have been bad in Afghanistan since the 70's, but there were bright moments during the occupation, or what you want to call this period that is now coming to an end. I have some personal ties to the region, and I sincerely hope things clear up somehow. Afghanistan deserves none of this.
- pessimizer 5y ago> I was never a fan of this nor any other war, but 20 years is a long time, and despite all the bloodshed and suffering that has happened while the Americans (and soldiers from my own country) were there, that is 20 years where, amongst other things, many girls received an education that they would not otherwise have. True, but the US could have made a dent in that by simply not supporting and financing the Taliban. When they help exterminate all of the secular opposition to administrations they are friendly with, the inevitable results are theocracies that are armed to the teeth.
- pjmlp 5y agoI guess there is some positivity about it seen that way, the problem are the dark days ahead.
- aaronbrethorst 5y agoBin Laden was killed in Pakistan, not Afghanistan. Also, we could have gotten out 20 years ago if Dubya hadn't been so arrogant. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5 https://www.theguardian.com/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.te...
- tragomaskhalos 5y agoTerrible, but not surprising: misogyny, or, more properly, gynophobia, is the beating heart of the Islamist Death Cult
- birdyrooster 5y agoAlso raping young boys, they seem to do that a lot too with impunity.
- Hamuko 5y agoIsn't that part of the Catholic doctorine as well?
- optimalsolver 5y agoOfficially ratified by Constantine himself at the Council of Nicea.
- reducesuffering 5y agosource?
- Melchizedek 5y agoRaping young boys is tradition in Afghanistan but you can’t blame the Taliban for that — they are very much against it.
- vmh1928 5y agoNobody's talking or doing anything about the Pakistani support for the Taliban. The T wouldn't be anywhere without it and for years the U.S. and ROW have chosen to ignore it.
- nerbert 5y agoPakistan is also burning itself with these crazies.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- fhood 5y agoThe US couldn't do much about it from what I understand. But yeah, Pakistan's support for the Taliban was as much a factor as anything in how badly the US failed here, or at least that seems to be the opinion of many of the ranking related military personel.
- jhallenworld 5y agoOr, supposedly, Saudi support. Imran Khan's response to the Pak money allegation is to ask where did the 1T$ of USA money go? He does have a point, but still not sure why they want to support Taliban.
- baybal2 5y ago> He does have a point, but still not sure why they want to support Taliban. If they don't support Taliban, the Afghan government will... Whaaat? — I already hear it, but yes. This is this much fucked up. Please google this.
- baybal2 5y agoMore context: Afghan government also has Taliban backers internally. These desire more for Taliban to attack Pakistan instead, and they indeed fund, and facilitate them to do so.
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- kelvin0 5y agoFreedom fighters in the 80's, Terrorists now. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mujahideen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban%27s_rise_to_power https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taliban%27s_rise_to_power "Although no documentation has officially surfaced that the CIA directly supported the Taliban or Al Qaeda, some basis for military support of the Taliban was provided when, in the early 1980s, the CIA and the ISI (Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence agency) provided arms to Afghans resisting the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, and the ISI assisted the process of gathering radical Muslims from around the world to fight against the Soviets.[11] Osama bin Laden was one of the key players in organizing training camps for the foreign Arab volunteers"
- EarthIsHome 5y agoA US company wanted to build a pipeline through Afghanistan in the 90s. Since the Taliban was in control of the area, the US tried to work with them to build the pipeline, but the Taliban didn't didn't agree with having a pipeline through their territory. So, the US went to war for the pipeline, and now, in the past couple of years, the pipeline is being built under the Taliban.
- bluejekyll 5y agoForgive my ignorance, but this is the first I heard of this. Do you have any sources that back up this assertion?
- randomopining 5y agoHe probably doesn't. It's just a mumbo jumbo of something he read on a message board, convoluted after a few years of posting the same thing on multiple boards.
- stephen_g 5y agoI think they mean the TAPI pipeline [1]. I do recall reading something about Taliban representatives being flown to Washington about it before the negotiations broke down due to the embassy bombings. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakistan–India_Pipeline https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkmenistan–Afghanistan–Pakis...
- numair 5y agoOnce again, my fellow Americans, if you are ever confused about how the Taliban won the hearts and minds of various groups within their country so quickly — while being such utterly backwards, terrible people — remember that we collaborated with pedophiles to “manage” Afghanistan, to the disgust of our own troops: https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-told-to-ignore-afghan-allies-abuse-of-boys.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/21/world/asia/us-soldiers-to... I’ll never stop reminding people of this, because 1) it’s INSANE; 2) any sane person would say “yeah if you’re on the non-pedophile side I’d probably choose you over the other guys.”
- spaced-out 5y ago>yeah if you’re on the non-pedophile side You're assuming there's a non-pedophile side?
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- nate_meurer 5y agoYes, that's the Taliban. From https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tragedy https://foreignpolicy.com/2013/10/28/bacha-bazi-an-afghan-tr...: "The Taliban had a deep aversion towards bacha bazi, outlawing the practice when they instituted strict nationwide sharia law. According to some accounts, including the hallmark Times of London article “Kandahar Comes out of the Closet” in 2002, one of the original provocations for the Taliban’s rise to power in the early 1990s was their outrage over pedophilia. Once they came to power, bacha bazi became taboo, and the men who still engaged in the practice did so in secret."
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- birdyrooster 5y agoIt's like when you force someone to quit drugs for you, they don't learn how to quit for themselves.
- oytis 5y agoSo good seeing U.S. giving up on its imperialistic foreign policy, so much hope for the world /s
- randomopining 5y ago2001 - 2020: "Bad US! Imperialism! Racism!" ... 2021: "Omg the Taliban are terrible! They are killing innocents and taking away womens rights! Somebody needs to do something!"
- endisneigh 5y agoHot take: The immense security theater and waste of time created due to creation of the TSA following 9/11 and our increased interest in fixing the Middle East is just insult to injury. All that and now we’re leaving with basically no results? SMH. If we’re leaving can we get rid of the TSA at least and restore some sanity to airplane travel?
- mikysco 5y agoI genuinely think this is status quo opinion in 2021. At least amongst the HN/reddit demo.
- sharken 5y agoThe Middle East cannot be fixed by using force. Only if you have a clear target such as taking out Saddam Hussein, it can work if you get out immediately afterwards. I hope lessons are learned.
- stephen_g 5y agoYeah, I mean sure, if you want to create a power vacuum that leads to the creation and rise of ISIS…
- anonAndOn 5y agoI'm sure you realize who has filled that vacuum, that regional powerhouse next door that shares its largest border? Maybe by giving them such an enormous gift we're frenemies, after all?
- azth 5y agoWho's audacious enough to claim that they want to "fix" the "Middle East" (a colonialist term by the way). Do people ever stop to think why it's in its current state to begin with? Who split it up divide and conquer style? It's those same people who want to "fix" it.
- ergocoder 5y agoThe real lesson is to install a dictator puppet who guarantees terrorism won't be exported. Woman children being raped and slaved? That's the dictator's fault, not US. We can't intervene another country! You see? Win-win
- 1cvmask 5y agoThe Carter administration and CIA created and armed the rebel (or terrorist groups according to the Soviets) before the Soviet invasion in 1979 according to recently declassified documents: https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/07/history-trump-cia-was-arming-afghan-rebels-before-soviets-invaded/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2019/01/07/history-tr... Wonder how Afghanistan would have been had Carter not armed those groups.
- christkv 5y agoThe same, the British also ventured into Afghanistan a century before and also gave up.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y agoI think Afghanistan shows how a military/country is more than the sum of its parts. The US gave the Afghan military all the toys and training that they need to stomp the Taliban but there is a missing element- decent standards of living, opportunity, education, and national pride/identity. It would take generations of investment and the US standing guard while Afghans attend school and prosper to slowly gain those elusive qualities. Just my 2 cents.
- umvi 5y agoAnd the most important missing element - a strong collective desire to be free from oppressive regimes. Best summed up by the old proverb "you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make it drink"
- pessimizer 5y ago> The US gave the Afghan military all the toys and training that they need to stomp the Taliban but there is a missing element- decent standards of living, opportunity, education, and national pride/identity. The thing they lack is loyalty to an occupation government set up and propped up by a foreign invading army. Belonging to the Afghan military means you get a salary in a destroyed country. It doesn't mean that you support an occupation government over your local pious theocrats.
- 2OEH8eoCRo0 5y agoWhat are the origins of the Taliban and how did they come to power in the 90s?
- maccolgan 5y ago>prosper to slowly gain those elusive qualities isn't this just masked indoctrination?
- seibelj 5y agoAnd America is supposed to spend $1 trillion+ per year so that a thousand women can keep banking jobs? Many middle eastern countries are extremely conservative. We can't police Afghanistan nor the world. Should never have been there, should never have stayed, should have gotten out far faster.
- bpodgursky 5y agoThe US did not spend $1 trillion per year. We spent $1 trillion over 20 years. The cost per year since 2012 was about $50B.
- lotsofpulp 5y agohttps://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/figures/2021/Human%20and%20Budgetary%20Costs%20of%20Afghan%20War%2C%202001-2021.pdf https://watson.brown.edu/costsofwar/files/cow/imce/figures/2... > Since invading Afghanistan in 2001, the United States has spent $2.26 trillion on the war, which includes operations in both Afghanistan and Pakistan. Note that this total does not include funds that the United States government is obligated to spend on lifetime care for American veterans of this war, nor does it include future interest payments on money borrowed to fund the war. And even if it is $50B per year, I do not see why the US should spend it unless it we should also be spending $50B per year in Somalia and Congo and wherever else is needed.
- bpodgursky 5y agoThe lead infographic explicitly includes interest payments. Either way, this is tangental to what I said, which is that we are spending $50B per year now, which is accurate: https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/09/12/the-annual-cost-of-the-war-in-afghanistan-since-2001-infographic/?sh=567e60191971 https://www.forbes.com/sites/niallmccarthy/2019/09/12/the-an...
- lotsofpulp 5y agoThe distinction is future interest payments.
- bpodgursky 5y agoI don't ever want to see any domestic #metoo comments someone who was OK with the US leaving Afghanistan. Any gender discrimination challenges in the west are an absolute joke compared to the dark ages we just condemned 20 million Afghan women and girls to. And it's being accepted without even a peep by the press and populace at large.
- throwaway123x2 5y agoThe press has been complaining about it nonstop, so I'm not quite sure what you're talking about.
- nate_meurer 5y agoWhat's your solution then? Continue throwing thousands of lives and trillions of dollars at it to maintain an indefinite military presence there?
- onepointsixC 5y agoWe had only a few thousand troops holding most of the populated centers free at very little cost. We could have done that indefinitely without any issue. US casualties in Afghanistan in the past few years have been minuscule and the actual dollar spending wasn't much to keep ten's of millions free from tyranny.
- randomopining 5y agoLol it's hilarious. All the SJW types on instagram now are reposting "The latest on what's happening in Afghanistan! What you can do to help!" Someone said donating to some fund or something and reposting this or that... all selfish posturing. Some people literally have no clue about the way reality unfolds. Sometimes its just the strong that create the new reality, and they eradicate the weak from existence. When you have strength and general justice on your side, you need to take the chance and destroy the evil.
- bilekas 5y agoDidn't realise the Taliban were part of the Ferengi alliance.
- herodotus 5y agoSo awful that religious extremists always seem to find women threatening.
- nemo44x 5y agoIf anyone is interested in getting an idea for how regular Afghans think about their country, policies, etc, this report from 2019 gives a pretty good view. The 2020 report isn't too great since the pandemic. But there is a report for every year going back to like 2005 or so, so you can see how attitudes changed over time: https://asiafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2019_Afghan_Survey_Full-Report.pdf https://asiafoundation.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2019_A... In essence, a vast majority of afghans polled believe in women's rights to vote and to work. The Taliban is not popular at all with a vast majority believing they deserve no sympathy. However, many do think peace is possible. One of the biggest issues the Afghans appear to have is a vast majority believe their own armed forces are badly corrupt. Afghanistan is by no means a liberal place and is extremely religiously conservative in many ways, but the general public has no taste for Taliban style rule. This is a truly sad disaster unfolding and I only hope a peace deal is brokered somehow. But with so little resistance, you almost have to wonder if the Taliban would want that now? The only hope I can see is that 65% of the population is under 18 and want educational and career opportunities and I wonder if they'd be willing to rise up if the Taliban does in fact revert to their policies pre-9/11.
- reducesuffering 5y ago> One of the biggest issues the Afghans appear to have is a vast majority believe their own armed forces are badly corrupt. By all accounts this is true: bribes, pedophilia, killings of citizens, using heroin, defecting to Taliban, selling arms at markets, etc.
- colek42 5y agoThis is extremely sad to me. I served in Afghanistan from 2009-2010. One of the things that made me feel like it was worthwhile was watching girls be able to attend school. War sucks, and doesn't really work. We should do a better job avoiding them in the future.