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Australia is becoming a surveillance state

484 points by LordAtlas 5y ago

graderjs 5y ago
is becoming as in "there might be still time to stop it." Well that's an understatement...But it's not unique.
kylehotchkiss 5y ago
What real/perceived security risk is AU dealing with to justify all these legal changes? They seem relatively isolated from many of the threats facing the US/EU west regarding terrorism/extremism. Borders in AU are pretty naturally secured by oceans.
- chrisco255 5y ago
  If you want a narrative I'm sure someone has woven it for you. It won't be convincing or satisfying to the critical thinker but it will end the conversation nonetheless. And the machine will continue to carry out its program.
- a0-prw 5y ago
  Oz is part of the 5 eyes. The West in general, but especially the 5 eyes (anglosphere) have been waging an economic and propaganda war on China since Obama "pivoted east". Anti Chinese rhetoric in Oz media and from their politicians has been strident. It is quite possible that the 5 eyes are ramping up methods of internal control in expectation of a war with China.
  - shell0x 5y ago
    Australia basically sold everything to China and gave the Darwin harbor away on a lease. The entire economy relies on selling real estate to rich foreign investors, international students, and mining. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-12/why-did-northern-territory-sell-darwin-port-to-china-what-risk/10755720 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-12/why-did-northern-terr... Australia thinks it can control China, but without the influx of Chinese money the place is finished IMO. When I landed at Sydney Airport in 2020, there were ads in Mandarin advertising EU passports for sale.
    - tasogare 5y ago
      Capital plus immigration. I've been in WA a decade ago and I was surprised by the number of ethnic Chinese people everywhere. One day China will just have to push a button to turn the country into one of its province, without any need for war.
      - shell0x 5y ago
        You are not far off. China used Chinese students in Australia as a pawn in geopolitics to support the regime. The previous generation of ethnic Chinese is better integrated, but the new generation is very patriotic and loyal to the communist party. https://www.sbs.com.au/news/hundreds-gather-in-sydney-for-police-heavy-pro-china-rally/7794fa29-563a-4ca5-8e22-bbb35a814a7a https://www.sbs.com.au/news/hundreds-gather-in-sydney-for-po... The West always hoped China would turn into a democracy, but that turned out to be an illusion. As long as maximising profits regardless of the consequences is a priority, this will continue. It's often forgotten that China is and has always been playing the long game where in the West policies can change after the next election.
  - rajamaka 5y ago
    As incompetent as Australia's current leadership is, I still have reservations that they would be naive enough to get involved in a war with their greatest trading partner.
    - inglor_cz 5y ago
      If China gets into war with anyone sizable (in practice, the U.S.), the trade flow will stop anyway. US stayed out of WWI for three years, but American trade with Germany was toast once the British started blocking German ships and ports.
  - marcus_holmes 5y ago
    Also don't forget the racism. Aussies in general can be pretty racist, and the Chinese cop it especially. Politicians being "tough" on the Chinese (and then quietly selling off major chunks of Australia to them) seems to be a winning move.
    - partomniscient 5y ago
      The situation is ludicrous isn't it. One of the major agri-businesses sucking the life-system out of Australia (i.e. water out of the Murray-Darling river) is a chinese owned business at the top of the river system. It all depends on your perspective. Some people are more Australian than our politicians, yet they look Chinese. It's a massive melting pot of variations. My opinion now is that the Crown (not the casino) is extracting all the value it can from Australia and then run it into the ground, and the other powers that be are doing it too. If Australia ends up against China in conflict, a lot of people will be tearing themselves apart inside. At the other extreme, a lot of Han Chinese see every other non Han Chinese human as inferior (in varying shades of inferiority). There are a lot of Han Chinese. This is a scary situation. The racism runs in both directions.
      - marcus_holmes 5y ago
        > "The racism runs in both directions." Not only that (which is very true). But some of the more racist Aussies aren't "white Australia" Anglo-Saxons.
  - powerapple 5y ago
    I was thinking the same the other day. FB recommended a news article from Australian media yesterday, basically the journalists translated some Chinese text into some negative words in English, and wrote a piece for it, unbelievable. The way I see it is that both China and US do not want to go to war, but they all know there is a possibility you cannot ignore, the media is preparing for it. If you can label your enemy as non-human or evil, you don't have to worry about backslash from your citizen when a war breakout. I strongly feel this is the reason for what is happening now. In a few years, there will be conflicts.
- posnet 5y ago
  The usual surveillance scapegoats, terrorists, drug dealers, pedophiles. Organized crime used to be the other one, but "foreign state sponsored cyber attacks" are very in vogue at the moment.
  - unixhero 5y ago
    To be fair, Australia strangely enough struggles with plenty of organized crime in drug distribution.
    - fighterpilot 5y ago
      I won't accept your "to be fair", since it shouldn't be illegal in the first place. Just heavily regulated.
      - unixhero 5y ago
        Importing and distributing or production and distribution of ice aka crystal meth shouldn't be illegal? Australia has been in the middle of an enduring crystal meth-related crisis for what, 20 years?[0] [0], The biggest threat to Australia's future, https://time.com/4737800/meth-australia-ice-crystal-methamphetamine-methylamphetamine/ https://time.com/4737800/meth-australia-ice-crystal-methamph...
    - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
      And Casino operation[0][1] [0]: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/why-is-james-packer-fronting-an-inquiry-over-crown-s-behaviour-20201005-p561zt.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/why-is-james-packe... [1]: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/fraudulent-scam-crown-faces-new-money-laundering-scandal-20210701-p585xw.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/fraudulent-scam-cr...
- tomhoward 5y ago
  Australia's participation in the "War on Terror" was seen to make it a target, and we were always told about "narrowly thwarted" attacks, though they pretty much always turned out to be deadbeat kids with no idea what they were doing. But that was sufficient to keep the fear level up. As others have said, these days China is held up as the big threat.
- Benjamin_Dobell 5y ago
  These laws aren't for Australia, they're simply implemented here because we're an easy target (no bill of rights)[1]. The Five Eyes simply want to use Australia to funnel access requests through. > We, the Homeland Security, Public Safety, and Immigration Ministers of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States, stand united in our commitment to protect our citizens from child predators, terrorists, violent extremists and other illicit actors. We are as determined to counter these threats online as we are to counter them in the physical world. We note with disappointment that senior digital industry leaders did not accept our invitation to engage on critical issues regarding the illicit use of online spaces at the 2018 Five Country Ministerial meeting. Nevertheless, we reiterate our determination to work together constructively to ensure our response is commensurate to the gravity of the threat. Our citizens expect online spaces to be safe, and are gravely concerned about illegal and illicit online content, particularly the online sexual exploitation of children. We stand united in affirming that the rule of law can and must prevail online. [2] This was a joint statement made by the Department of Home Affairs around the time Assistance and Access Bill 2018 was being pushed through. [1] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/australia-setting-itself-up-as-five-eyes-weakest-link-512984 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/australia-setting-itself-up-a... [2] https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/national-security/security-coordination/five-country-ministerial-2018 https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...
- newsclues 5y ago
  China.
- sumedh 5y ago
  > Borders in AU are pretty naturally secured by oceans. There have been few cases of people getting indoctrinated with ISIS videos and then doing terrorist attacks.
  - kwere 5y ago
    those are fringe cases, and pretty much 95% of the 0.0001% australian radicalizing can be spotted and monitored
elevenoh 5y ago
>“[These laws] represent, in my view, significant expansions of the existing powers of law enforcement agencies away from a traditional focus on investigation and the collection of admissible evidence of specific offenses to disruption, to attack, to take-over, to take-down,” Dr Mann said. Yikes. This is like government being infested by cancel culture (attack w/ no evidence needed, pile on & take down). What phenomenon is driving this? e.g political opportunism under the pretense of covid / protection?
- choeger 5y ago
  It's just the logical consequence of unchecked abilities. If there was a counter force, e.g., personal liability for abuse, things might be different. But since lawmakers can basically do whatever they want and, worst case, maybe have their laws retracted later by some court, they will invariably pile surveillance measure on top of intervention measure on top of loisening some restrictions so they at least did something while in office. Later, of course, some politician will abuse this power. But then it's too late. You cannot assemble anymore because your messengers will be disabled/censored. You cannot speak freely anymore because your home assistant will rat you, apple style. You cannot even move freely anymore because your car and your public transportation will be tied to your digital persona and your social score. Of course you can forget about paying for something because both cash and cryptocurrency will be outlawed.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  Australia has always been quietly very authoritarian. It tries to pretend that it's all beer and barbecue on the beach, but having an open alcohol container in a public place is illegal, and barbecues are only allowed in specific places (and the beach isn't one of them). There's a term for it: Wowsers [0] - people who police others' behaviour. The Wowsers and the Larrikins [1] battle for Australia's soul. The Wowsers are winning. Appealing to Australia's Wowsers is always politically beneficial. Any law that strengthens police powers goes over really well. And then add Murdoch, who owns all the newspapers, controls both major parties, and hates the internet with a passion (because it's destroying his business and power base). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wowser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wowser [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrikin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrikin
RileyJames 5y ago
Since 2015 and the meta data laws it’s no wonder things have continued to get worse. There was practically no opposition to the meta data laws. No popular resistance. No protests. It’s a non-issue for the public or political class. The extent to which non-tech people in my social circles care is to switch to signal. Not that they’ve stopped using the other tools. There seems to be a “what else can we do” attitude. Unfortunately, there is also no other party to vote for, as both major parties (liberal and labour) hold the same policies on ‘national security’.
- hexa22 5y ago
  There are far bigger issues in Australia right now to care about meta data logging. Climate change and now the vaccine delay consume all of the publics attention. Metadata logging is a theoretical issue while the lack of vaccine supplies is a very real and immediate issue.
  - Mountain_Skies 5y ago
    Multitasking isn't something new.
    - aplummer 5y ago
      In Australia it is, when the horses race the nation stops
  - Guthur 5y ago
    The meta data happened long ago and was pushed through with the most flimsy of pretence. I remember it was after the shooting in Sydney by an Iranian refugee who had not only just been in custody but had arrive under the pretence that he was an Iranian spy seeking asylum. They had every reason to surveil the guy under normal laws but used it as an excuse to justify a drag net approach. It was obviously an Orwellian trick but no one cared. Freedom should not be so whimsically thrown away, getting it back will be impossible through normal means.
  - BelenusMordred 5y ago
joshsyn 5y ago
hope to leave this country for good sooner or later. Lot of complicit people willing to trade-off freedom for false sense of security.
- taberiand 5y ago
  A whole lot more people simply don't think about it at all.
  - joshsyn 5y ago
    Which is exactly the kind of complicitness I have an issue with. I don't believe in giving bureaucrats enormous power over an individual. Freedom is easy to give away, hard to take back. Plenty of examples around, why.
    - onethought 5y ago
      Australia… literally a country of prisoners. Seems like freedom isn’t that hard to take back.
- thomasfromcdnjs 5y ago
  I'm going off grid first, and then hope to move overseas too. I can't stand how many rules there are now, just doesn't suit my personality type.
  - joshsyn 5y ago
    is there an online community to discuss specifically these things? Which countries do you have in mind?
antisol 5y ago
you know what's hilarious? An article talking about surveillance states that immediately pops up a request for a bunch of personal information.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  yep... I've never been on that site, never even seen an article there, and the first one I want to see, they cover up with a popup, asking me to subscribe... I have no idea whose idea this is, and how many people actually subscribe on the first visit, but there must be some pointy haired boss somewhere involved.
  - antisol 5y ago
    The ublock rule you want is: ia.acs.org.au###subscribeModal :)
unixhero 5y ago
It already has been for a long time. Freedom and liberty are practiced differently in Australia.
- stuaxo 5y ago
  Related to the history ?
- chadcmulligan 5y ago
  We're all making money, house prices are up, how good is that?
  - techdragon 5y ago
    It’s disgustingly depressing for a generation who are looking at home ownership as unrealistic. I make pretty decent money but buying a home anywhere that isn’t several hours commute away from my entire life is an exercise in finding the most cramped shit hole imaginable. We’re a country of cities with tiny zones of walkable inner city surrounded by Suburban sprawl so extreme that for instance Perth’s metro area spreads the further than distance from LA to San Diego!
    - unixhero 5y ago
      Can confirm, Melbourne is absolutely gigantic. No really, so big it didn't make sense to me.
- scoopertrooper 5y ago
  I think we just have a lot of faith in our institutions. We just can't believe the state would ever be used as a weapon against us because we've never experienced large scale civil upheaval or suffered under periods of dictatorship. People rattling on about slippery slopes and abstract notions of liberty just seem a bit batty to most Australians. We have a free media, our elections are free and fair, we have routine transfers of power, minor parties are well represented in our parliaments, and we're generally free express our minds and go about our lives.
GekkePrutser 5y ago
Unfortunately we're all becoming surveillance states :( So many European countries are now requiring people to ID themselves and get a QR code scanned at every shop, every restaurant, every public transport journey. All combining to a detailed digital record of who has been where. Under the guise of protecting against COVID but who says this will disappear once the pandemic is over? I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary (after all, vaccination is enough to get access). We're giving up a lot of privacy all of a sudden without any serious debate. The alternative (getting tested every 2 days) is not viable anyway so eventually everyone will get it. IMO we should just make it mandatory now and skip the privacy invasion. Give the people who refuse anyway a fine and leave it at that (there will be so few left not to be an issue). I'm not in favour of forcing it. I'm surprised Australia is still so worried about terrorism though. It never really had an issue with it in the first place and it's no longer the monster of the week.
- jjgreen 5y ago
  I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary. How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state?
  - agilob 5y ago
    >How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state? Develop a more deadly virus?
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    These vaccination records are there already anyway, in Europe most countries have a national health system that knows exactly who has it and who doesn't. But it's not as bad as a detailed step by step log of every person's activities every day. Also, I think some level of noncompliance should be accepted. The vaccines don't work 100% anyway, these are just a few more percent. The number of people opposed to vaccination in Europe is very low compared to the US. The vaccination rate will be more than high enough for decent protection. We're never going to reduce the risk of covid to zero for an individual. Just like we're never going to reduce the risk of dying from cancer to zero. Some risk just has to be accepted as a fact of life.
rbut 5y ago
One theory I read once is that Australia leads the way with these laws for the other members of the five eyes to eventually follow. Is there any truth in this?
- vermilingua 5y ago
  The scarier but more likely version of that theory is that the Australian Govt leads the way so the other 4Eyes don't have to follow. Similar to the recent AN0N bust, as our citizen protections are more lax, the FBI etc can route data through Australia where the Govt can intercept it; once intercepted it can be shared with FVEY without consequence.
  - seizethegdgap 5y ago
    That would introduce incredible lag for gamers of every kind, and network engineers on every AS would immediately notice the BGP hijack. Your scenario is far more unlikely, if not impossible.
    - vermilingua 5y ago
      /s ?
      - seizethegdgap 5y ago
        Why would I be sarcastic? Literally every online service would be affected if suddenly all Five Eyes traffic was being routed through Australia. https://www.submarinecablemap.com/ https://www.submarinecablemap.com/ Look at the sheer amount of backhaul between just the US and Japan. Now take all that traffic, stuff it down 1/10 of the amount of fiber pairs, with a fuckload more hops. You're telling me nothing will be affected and none will notice?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- privacyking 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
philip142au 5y ago
I hope the AI watches us and then takes us over
marsven_422 5y ago
No guns, no FREEDOM.
L_226 5y ago
Since leaving Australia (and started living in Europe) I have come to the conclusion that Australia is not a "real" country - it is just a continent owned by corporate interests that happens to also have people living on it. Corporate interests own the media, politicians, food production, education etc. and no one cares, because Life Is Good. Why expect anything to change, or people to care about strong democratic institutions, when there is no incentive for them to care about abstract concepts such as privacy or governmental oversight. Decades of bull markets, house price increases, a decline in public education, torpedoed communication infrastructure and complicit "independent" media has resulted in a wealthy, ignorant and complacent society who allow their representatives full control over their lives. It is not that they don't care about these issues, they are not even aware they are issues at all. But who cares, when you can go to the beach?
- lethologica 5y ago
  So what are we Aussies missing out on then?
  - charbonneau 5y ago
    I don't expect you to understand, but in Europe, people actually care about their rights [1]. There are weekly protests with lots of impact [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28139889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28139889 [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/protest-stop-checking-my-sources-i-am-telling-you-the-truth https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/protest-stop-c...
    - shric 5y ago
      Link 2 is a 404 for me. Hilariously, Australians protest about their rights by trying their best to extend lockdowns further [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/24/anti-lockdown-protests-across-australia-as-covid-cases-surge-to-record-levels-in-sydney https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/24/anti-...
      - 5y ago
fractallyte 5y ago
The TV mini-series "Secret City" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4976512/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4976512/) was courageous in its depiction of the growing surveillance state in Australia. (And it stars Anna Torv, from "Fringe", but with her native accent! ;-)
- shric 5y ago
  Especially as it was supported by the government. Fringe and Mindhunter :)
- ssijak 5y ago
  There is a new short series one called Pine Gap. Not that great but fun enough.
- hiidrew 5y ago
  man I miss Fringe...one of my favorite pilots ever
robertwt7 5y ago
Because we care more about climate change than our privacy. Sad
chrismsimpson 5y ago
A voyeuristic nanny is probably a more accurate description.
brabel 5y ago
To learn more, watch these guy's videos on Youtube or their own website: https://www.thejuicemedia.com/ https://www.thejuicemedia.com/ They are hilarious and tell the naked truth.
randomhodler84 5y ago
Australian tech workers, get out get out get out get out… I can’t stress this enough. The Australian tech industry is a failing joke. You are being grossly underpaid. The country _is_ an authoritarian surveillance state and has been for years and years. The frog boiled and died years ago. Peace out, and find somewhere that will treat you well.
- sk0g 5y ago
  There's what, 5 countries that might pay better? USA of course, which has its own share of problems, Canada, England, Switzerland. Maybe one of Netherlands or Germany if you're lucky. No easy choice there, unfortunately.
  - kwere 5y ago
    England? For what i know they have/had enourmous labour offer compared to demand
    - sk0g 5y ago
      Sure you get the BBC and all the niceties with the fair coverage and all, but other media is still pretty Murdochy-y, and Brexit takes away the main advantage of why I would want to live in Europe in the first place - the ease of moving around, if needed.
- mitemte 5y ago
  Pay is honestly decent in my experience. I’ve noticed that Aussies stay at the same company for much longer, compared to U.S. engineers. I’m on my third role in 3 years and will be taking $160K+, total compensation. Not nearly as much as some U.S. roles, but I know people who have worked the same role for 10 years and haven’t hit $100K. Being a dual national (Schengen/Europe) there’s honestly not that many places in Europe where software pays all that well. Vienna surprised me with how many salaries sit between 40-50K euros for senior positions.
jaza 5y ago
But how good's the cricket?!
luke2m 5y ago
>let them modify and delete data So there taking planting evidence digital?
intricatedetail 5y ago
Australia is owned by China and politicians making policies are corrupted by communists. Unfortunately it's too late for people living there
ur-whale 5y ago
Australia and its system are slowly becoming easy prey for China. Complete behind the scene control is not far away.
ostenning 5y ago
This is a very relevant video by friendlyjordies (released in the last 24hours) https://youtu.be/8mmgeQ6SCqI https://youtu.be/8mmgeQ6SCqI I recommend everyone watch it for a more detailed insight into the erosion and corruption of Australian liberty

484 points by LordAtlas 5y ago

is becoming as in "there might be still time to stop it." Well that's an understatement...But it's not unique.

What real/perceived security risk is AU dealing with to justify all these legal changes? They seem relatively isolated from many of the threats facing the US/EU west regarding terrorism/extremism. Borders in AU are pretty naturally secured by oceans.

chrisco255 5y ago
If you want a narrative I'm sure someone has woven it for you. It won't be convincing or satisfying to the critical thinker but it will end the conversation nonetheless. And the machine will continue to carry out its program.
a0-prw 5y ago
Oz is part of the 5 eyes. The West in general, but especially the 5 eyes (anglosphere) have been waging an economic and propaganda war on China since Obama "pivoted east". Anti Chinese rhetoric in Oz media and from their politicians has been strident. It is quite possible that the 5 eyes are ramping up methods of internal control in expectation of a war with China.
- shell0x 5y ago
  Australia basically sold everything to China and gave the Darwin harbor away on a lease. The entire economy relies on selling real estate to rich foreign investors, international students, and mining. https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-12/why-did-northern-territory-sell-darwin-port-to-china-what-risk/10755720 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-03-12/why-did-northern-terr... Australia thinks it can control China, but without the influx of Chinese money the place is finished IMO. When I landed at Sydney Airport in 2020, there were ads in Mandarin advertising EU passports for sale.
  - tasogare 5y ago
    Capital plus immigration. I've been in WA a decade ago and I was surprised by the number of ethnic Chinese people everywhere. One day China will just have to push a button to turn the country into one of its province, without any need for war.
    - shell0x 5y ago
      You are not far off. China used Chinese students in Australia as a pawn in geopolitics to support the regime. The previous generation of ethnic Chinese is better integrated, but the new generation is very patriotic and loyal to the communist party. https://www.sbs.com.au/news/hundreds-gather-in-sydney-for-police-heavy-pro-china-rally/7794fa29-563a-4ca5-8e22-bbb35a814a7a https://www.sbs.com.au/news/hundreds-gather-in-sydney-for-po... The West always hoped China would turn into a democracy, but that turned out to be an illusion. As long as maximising profits regardless of the consequences is a priority, this will continue. It's often forgotten that China is and has always been playing the long game where in the West policies can change after the next election.
- rajamaka 5y ago
  As incompetent as Australia's current leadership is, I still have reservations that they would be naive enough to get involved in a war with their greatest trading partner.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    If China gets into war with anyone sizable (in practice, the U.S.), the trade flow will stop anyway. US stayed out of WWI for three years, but American trade with Germany was toast once the British started blocking German ships and ports.
- marcus_holmes 5y ago
  Also don't forget the racism. Aussies in general can be pretty racist, and the Chinese cop it especially. Politicians being "tough" on the Chinese (and then quietly selling off major chunks of Australia to them) seems to be a winning move.
  - partomniscient 5y ago
    The situation is ludicrous isn't it. One of the major agri-businesses sucking the life-system out of Australia (i.e. water out of the Murray-Darling river) is a chinese owned business at the top of the river system. It all depends on your perspective. Some people are more Australian than our politicians, yet they look Chinese. It's a massive melting pot of variations. My opinion now is that the Crown (not the casino) is extracting all the value it can from Australia and then run it into the ground, and the other powers that be are doing it too. If Australia ends up against China in conflict, a lot of people will be tearing themselves apart inside. At the other extreme, a lot of Han Chinese see every other non Han Chinese human as inferior (in varying shades of inferiority). There are a lot of Han Chinese. This is a scary situation. The racism runs in both directions.
    - marcus_holmes 5y ago
      > "The racism runs in both directions." Not only that (which is very true). But some of the more racist Aussies aren't "white Australia" Anglo-Saxons.
- powerapple 5y ago
  I was thinking the same the other day. FB recommended a news article from Australian media yesterday, basically the journalists translated some Chinese text into some negative words in English, and wrote a piece for it, unbelievable. The way I see it is that both China and US do not want to go to war, but they all know there is a possibility you cannot ignore, the media is preparing for it. If you can label your enemy as non-human or evil, you don't have to worry about backslash from your citizen when a war breakout. I strongly feel this is the reason for what is happening now. In a few years, there will be conflicts.
posnet 5y ago
The usual surveillance scapegoats, terrorists, drug dealers, pedophiles. Organized crime used to be the other one, but "foreign state sponsored cyber attacks" are very in vogue at the moment.
- unixhero 5y ago
  To be fair, Australia strangely enough struggles with plenty of organized crime in drug distribution.
  - fighterpilot 5y ago
    I won't accept your "to be fair", since it shouldn't be illegal in the first place. Just heavily regulated.
    - unixhero 5y ago
      Importing and distributing or production and distribution of ice aka crystal meth shouldn't be illegal? Australia has been in the middle of an enduring crystal meth-related crisis for what, 20 years?[0] [0], The biggest threat to Australia's future, https://time.com/4737800/meth-australia-ice-crystal-methamphetamine-methylamphetamine/ https://time.com/4737800/meth-australia-ice-crystal-methamph...
  - BLKNSLVR 5y ago
    And Casino operation[0][1] [0]: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/why-is-james-packer-fronting-an-inquiry-over-crown-s-behaviour-20201005-p561zt.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/why-is-james-packe... [1]: https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/fraudulent-scam-crown-faces-new-money-laundering-scandal-20210701-p585xw.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/companies/fraudulent-scam-cr...
tomhoward 5y ago
Australia's participation in the "War on Terror" was seen to make it a target, and we were always told about "narrowly thwarted" attacks, though they pretty much always turned out to be deadbeat kids with no idea what they were doing. But that was sufficient to keep the fear level up. As others have said, these days China is held up as the big threat.
Benjamin_Dobell 5y ago
These laws aren't for Australia, they're simply implemented here because we're an easy target (no bill of rights)[1]. The Five Eyes simply want to use Australia to funnel access requests through. > We, the Homeland Security, Public Safety, and Immigration Ministers of Australia, Canada, New Zealand, the United Kingdom, and the United States, stand united in our commitment to protect our citizens from child predators, terrorists, violent extremists and other illicit actors. We are as determined to counter these threats online as we are to counter them in the physical world. We note with disappointment that senior digital industry leaders did not accept our invitation to engage on critical issues regarding the illicit use of online spaces at the 2018 Five Country Ministerial meeting. Nevertheless, we reiterate our determination to work together constructively to ensure our response is commensurate to the gravity of the threat. Our citizens expect online spaces to be safe, and are gravely concerned about illegal and illicit online content, particularly the online sexual exploitation of children. We stand united in affirming that the rule of law can and must prevail online. [2] This was a joint statement made by the Department of Home Affairs around the time Assistance and Access Bill 2018 was being pushed through. [1] https://www.itnews.com.au/news/australia-setting-itself-up-as-five-eyes-weakest-link-512984 https://www.itnews.com.au/news/australia-setting-itself-up-a... [2] https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/national-security/security-coordination/five-country-ministerial-2018 https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/about-us/our-portfolios/natio...
newsclues 5y ago
China.
sumedh 5y ago
> Borders in AU are pretty naturally secured by oceans. There have been few cases of people getting indoctrinated with ISIS videos and then doing terrorist attacks.
- kwere 5y ago
  those are fringe cases, and pretty much 95% of the 0.0001% australian radicalizing can be spotted and monitored

elevenoh 5y ago

>“[These laws] represent, in my view, significant expansions of the existing powers of law enforcement agencies away from a traditional focus on investigation and the collection of admissible evidence of specific offenses to disruption, to attack, to take-over, to take-down,” Dr Mann said. Yikes. This is like government being infested by cancel culture (attack w/ no evidence needed, pile on & take down). What phenomenon is driving this? e.g political opportunism under the pretense of covid / protection?

choeger 5y ago
It's just the logical consequence of unchecked abilities. If there was a counter force, e.g., personal liability for abuse, things might be different. But since lawmakers can basically do whatever they want and, worst case, maybe have their laws retracted later by some court, they will invariably pile surveillance measure on top of intervention measure on top of loisening some restrictions so they at least did something while in office. Later, of course, some politician will abuse this power. But then it's too late. You cannot assemble anymore because your messengers will be disabled/censored. You cannot speak freely anymore because your home assistant will rat you, apple style. You cannot even move freely anymore because your car and your public transportation will be tied to your digital persona and your social score. Of course you can forget about paying for something because both cash and cryptocurrency will be outlawed.
marcus_holmes 5y ago
Australia has always been quietly very authoritarian. It tries to pretend that it's all beer and barbecue on the beach, but having an open alcohol container in a public place is illegal, and barbecues are only allowed in specific places (and the beach isn't one of them). There's a term for it: Wowsers [0] - people who police others' behaviour. The Wowsers and the Larrikins [1] battle for Australia's soul. The Wowsers are winning. Appealing to Australia's Wowsers is always politically beneficial. Any law that strengthens police powers goes over really well. And then add Murdoch, who owns all the newspapers, controls both major parties, and hates the internet with a passion (because it's destroying his business and power base). [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wowser https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wowser [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrikin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Larrikin

RileyJames 5y ago

Since 2015 and the meta data laws it’s no wonder things have continued to get worse. There was practically no opposition to the meta data laws. No popular resistance. No protests. It’s a non-issue for the public or political class. The extent to which non-tech people in my social circles care is to switch to signal. Not that they’ve stopped using the other tools. There seems to be a “what else can we do” attitude. Unfortunately, there is also no other party to vote for, as both major parties (liberal and labour) hold the same policies on ‘national security’.

hexa22 5y ago
There are far bigger issues in Australia right now to care about meta data logging. Climate change and now the vaccine delay consume all of the publics attention. Metadata logging is a theoretical issue while the lack of vaccine supplies is a very real and immediate issue.
- Mountain_Skies 5y ago
  Multitasking isn't something new.
  - aplummer 5y ago
    In Australia it is, when the horses race the nation stops
- Guthur 5y ago
  The meta data happened long ago and was pushed through with the most flimsy of pretence. I remember it was after the shooting in Sydney by an Iranian refugee who had not only just been in custody but had arrive under the pretence that he was an Iranian spy seeking asylum. They had every reason to surveil the guy under normal laws but used it as an excuse to justify a drag net approach. It was obviously an Orwellian trick but no one cared. Freedom should not be so whimsically thrown away, getting it back will be impossible through normal means.
- BelenusMordred 5y ago

joshsyn 5y ago

hope to leave this country for good sooner or later. Lot of complicit people willing to trade-off freedom for false sense of security.

taberiand 5y ago
A whole lot more people simply don't think about it at all.
- joshsyn 5y ago
  Which is exactly the kind of complicitness I have an issue with. I don't believe in giving bureaucrats enormous power over an individual. Freedom is easy to give away, hard to take back. Plenty of examples around, why.
  - onethought 5y ago
    Australia… literally a country of prisoners. Seems like freedom isn’t that hard to take back.
thomasfromcdnjs 5y ago
I'm going off grid first, and then hope to move overseas too. I can't stand how many rules there are now, just doesn't suit my personality type.
- joshsyn 5y ago
  is there an online community to discuss specifically these things? Which countries do you have in mind?

antisol 5y ago

you know what's hilarious? An article talking about surveillance states that immediately pops up a request for a bunch of personal information.

ajsnigrutin 5y ago
yep... I've never been on that site, never even seen an article there, and the first one I want to see, they cover up with a popup, asking me to subscribe... I have no idea whose idea this is, and how many people actually subscribe on the first visit, but there must be some pointy haired boss somewhere involved.
- antisol 5y ago
  The ublock rule you want is: ia.acs.org.au###subscribeModal :)

unixhero 5y ago

It already has been for a long time. Freedom and liberty are practiced differently in Australia.

stuaxo 5y ago
Related to the history ?
chadcmulligan 5y ago
We're all making money, house prices are up, how good is that?
- techdragon 5y ago
  It’s disgustingly depressing for a generation who are looking at home ownership as unrealistic. I make pretty decent money but buying a home anywhere that isn’t several hours commute away from my entire life is an exercise in finding the most cramped shit hole imaginable. We’re a country of cities with tiny zones of walkable inner city surrounded by Suburban sprawl so extreme that for instance Perth’s metro area spreads the further than distance from LA to San Diego!
  - unixhero 5y ago
    Can confirm, Melbourne is absolutely gigantic. No really, so big it didn't make sense to me.
scoopertrooper 5y ago
I think we just have a lot of faith in our institutions. We just can't believe the state would ever be used as a weapon against us because we've never experienced large scale civil upheaval or suffered under periods of dictatorship. People rattling on about slippery slopes and abstract notions of liberty just seem a bit batty to most Australians. We have a free media, our elections are free and fair, we have routine transfers of power, minor parties are well represented in our parliaments, and we're generally free express our minds and go about our lives.

GekkePrutser 5y ago

Unfortunately we're all becoming surveillance states :( So many European countries are now requiring people to ID themselves and get a QR code scanned at every shop, every restaurant, every public transport journey. All combining to a detailed digital record of who has been where. Under the guise of protecting against COVID but who says this will disappear once the pandemic is over? I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary (after all, vaccination is enough to get access). We're giving up a lot of privacy all of a sudden without any serious debate. The alternative (getting tested every 2 days) is not viable anyway so eventually everyone will get it. IMO we should just make it mandatory now and skip the privacy invasion. Give the people who refuse anyway a fine and leave it at that (there will be so few left not to be an issue). I'm not in favour of forcing it. I'm surprised Australia is still so worried about terrorism though. It never really had an issue with it in the first place and it's no longer the monster of the week.

jjgreen 5y ago
I think we're going too far to accomodate those who won't get vaccinated. If everyone gets it, this scanning wouldn't be necessary. How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state?
- agilob 5y ago
  >How do you force everyone to get it without the apparatus of the police state? Develop a more deadly virus?
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  These vaccination records are there already anyway, in Europe most countries have a national health system that knows exactly who has it and who doesn't. But it's not as bad as a detailed step by step log of every person's activities every day. Also, I think some level of noncompliance should be accepted. The vaccines don't work 100% anyway, these are just a few more percent. The number of people opposed to vaccination in Europe is very low compared to the US. The vaccination rate will be more than high enough for decent protection. We're never going to reduce the risk of covid to zero for an individual. Just like we're never going to reduce the risk of dying from cancer to zero. Some risk just has to be accepted as a fact of life.

rbut 5y ago

One theory I read once is that Australia leads the way with these laws for the other members of the five eyes to eventually follow. Is there any truth in this?

vermilingua 5y ago
The scarier but more likely version of that theory is that the Australian Govt leads the way so the other 4Eyes don't have to follow. Similar to the recent AN0N bust, as our citizen protections are more lax, the FBI etc can route data through Australia where the Govt can intercept it; once intercepted it can be shared with FVEY without consequence.
- seizethegdgap 5y ago
  That would introduce incredible lag for gamers of every kind, and network engineers on every AS would immediately notice the BGP hijack. Your scenario is far more unlikely, if not impossible.
  - vermilingua 5y ago
    /s ?
    - seizethegdgap 5y ago
      Why would I be sarcastic? Literally every online service would be affected if suddenly all Five Eyes traffic was being routed through Australia. https://www.submarinecablemap.com/ https://www.submarinecablemap.com/ Look at the sheer amount of backhaul between just the US and Japan. Now take all that traffic, stuff it down 1/10 of the amount of fiber pairs, with a fuckload more hops. You're telling me nothing will be affected and none will notice?
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privacyking 5y ago

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philip142au 5y ago

I hope the AI watches us and then takes us over

marsven_422 5y ago

No guns, no FREEDOM.

L_226 5y ago

Since leaving Australia (and started living in Europe) I have come to the conclusion that Australia is not a "real" country - it is just a continent owned by corporate interests that happens to also have people living on it. Corporate interests own the media, politicians, food production, education etc. and no one cares, because Life Is Good. Why expect anything to change, or people to care about strong democratic institutions, when there is no incentive for them to care about abstract concepts such as privacy or governmental oversight. Decades of bull markets, house price increases, a decline in public education, torpedoed communication infrastructure and complicit "independent" media has resulted in a wealthy, ignorant and complacent society who allow their representatives full control over their lives. It is not that they don't care about these issues, they are not even aware they are issues at all. But who cares, when you can go to the beach?

lethologica 5y ago
So what are we Aussies missing out on then?
- charbonneau 5y ago
  I don't expect you to understand, but in Europe, people actually care about their rights [1]. There are weekly protests with lots of impact [2]. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28139889 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28139889 [2] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/protest-stop-checking-my-sources-i-am-telling-you-the-truth https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/10/protest-stop-c...
  - shric 5y ago
    Link 2 is a 404 for me. Hilariously, Australians protest about their rights by trying their best to extend lockdowns further [1]. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/24/anti-lockdown-protests-across-australia-as-covid-cases-surge-to-record-levels-in-sydney https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/jul/24/anti-...
    - 5y ago

fractallyte 5y ago

The TV mini-series "Secret City" (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4976512/ https://www.imdb.com/title/tt4976512/) was courageous in its depiction of the growing surveillance state in Australia. (And it stars Anna Torv, from "Fringe", but with her native accent! ;-)

shric 5y ago
Especially as it was supported by the government. Fringe and Mindhunter :)
ssijak 5y ago
There is a new short series one called Pine Gap. Not that great but fun enough.
hiidrew 5y ago
man I miss Fringe...one of my favorite pilots ever

robertwt7 5y ago

Because we care more about climate change than our privacy. Sad

chrismsimpson 5y ago

A voyeuristic nanny is probably a more accurate description.

brabel 5y ago

To learn more, watch these guy's videos on Youtube or their own website: https://www.thejuicemedia.com/ https://www.thejuicemedia.com/ They are hilarious and tell the naked truth.

randomhodler84 5y ago

Australian tech workers, get out get out get out get out… I can’t stress this enough. The Australian tech industry is a failing joke. You are being grossly underpaid. The country _is_ an authoritarian surveillance state and has been for years and years. The frog boiled and died years ago. Peace out, and find somewhere that will treat you well.

sk0g 5y ago
There's what, 5 countries that might pay better? USA of course, which has its own share of problems, Canada, England, Switzerland. Maybe one of Netherlands or Germany if you're lucky. No easy choice there, unfortunately.
- kwere 5y ago
  England? For what i know they have/had enourmous labour offer compared to demand
  - sk0g 5y ago
    Sure you get the BBC and all the niceties with the fair coverage and all, but other media is still pretty Murdochy-y, and Brexit takes away the main advantage of why I would want to live in Europe in the first place - the ease of moving around, if needed.
mitemte 5y ago
Pay is honestly decent in my experience. I’ve noticed that Aussies stay at the same company for much longer, compared to U.S. engineers. I’m on my third role in 3 years and will be taking $160K+, total compensation. Not nearly as much as some U.S. roles, but I know people who have worked the same role for 10 years and haven’t hit $100K. Being a dual national (Schengen/Europe) there’s honestly not that many places in Europe where software pays all that well. Vienna surprised me with how many salaries sit between 40-50K euros for senior positions.

jaza 5y ago

But how good's the cricket?!

luke2m 5y ago

>let them modify and delete data So there taking planting evidence digital?

intricatedetail 5y ago

Australia is owned by China and politicians making policies are corrupted by communists. Unfortunately it's too late for people living there

ur-whale 5y ago

Australia and its system are slowly becoming easy prey for China. Complete behind the scene control is not far away.

ostenning 5y ago

This is a very relevant video by friendlyjordies (released in the last 24hours) https://youtu.be/8mmgeQ6SCqI https://youtu.be/8mmgeQ6SCqI I recommend everyone watch it for a more detailed insight into the erosion and corruption of Australian liberty