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I really hope there is enough momentum to stop this. It's definitely the last straw for me in terms of apple products. I haven't bought a new iphone for 4 years

by zpeti 5y ago

I really hope there is enough momentum to stop this. It's definitely the last straw for me in terms of apple products. I haven't bought a new iphone for 4 years, I'm slowly trying to switch to a lightphone (non smartphone). My mac needs a change but I will probably switch to linux. It's absolutely ridiculous what apple has become. The exact opposite of what they used to represent, when I loved them. God rest Steve Jobs soul, his 1984 ad is exactly what apple is now. Screwed devs on app store, strongarmed into compliance, cooperation with china, worse and worse UX on phones, and now this... Really disappointing.

Razengan 5y ago
This reads like a pre-prepared rant. > It's definitely the last straw for me in terms of apple products. Uhh and where else will you go where the grass is so much rosier privacy-wise?
- misnome 5y ago
  > I'm slowly trying to switch to a lightphone (non smartphone)
- nix23 5y ago
  Pixel4 with LineageOS (Non google apps) F-Droid and Nextcloud for Backup and sync....grass is rosy for me ;)
  - JackGreyhat 5y ago
    Same here. Doubles battery life too...
    - nix23 5y ago
      The Nextcloud-Client could be better, but i am pretty happy with my setup.
JK_2234 5y ago
Comments from a different post shows this is "Presumably to implement E2E encryption, while at the same time helping the NCMEC to push for legislation to make it illegal to offer E2E encryption without this backdoor." If this is the case, then It is coming to every device (not just apple) or E2E will be made illegal(or a backdoor).
- 14 5y ago
  End-to-end encryption (E2EE) is a system of communication where only the communicating users can read the messages. In principle, it prevents potential eavesdroppers – including telecom providers, Internet providers, and even the provider of the communication service – from being able to access the cryptographic keys needed to decrypt the conversation.[1] End-to-end encryption is intended to prevent data being read or secretly modified, other than by the true sender and recipient(s). The messages are encrypted by the sender but the third party does not have a means to decrypt them, and stores them encrypted. The recipients retrieve the encrypted data and decrypt it themselves. Because no third parties can decipher the data being communicated or stored, for example, companies that provide end-to-end encryption are unable to hand over texts of their customers' messages to the authorities. Would it even be considered end 2 end encryption based on this Wikipedia definition? I don’t think it meets the definition if apple can determine certain files exist in a conversation.
hughrr 5y ago
It’s too late either way. The fact that it even got this far through implementation says the vendor is not on my side. Not only that once capability is revealed it can be required by governments and manipulated under warrant. Particularly in some regimes, mine included, the vendor can be compelled to do something and not say anything. My comment doesn’t even cover how monumentally flawed the entire thing is either. So I’ve been on the verge of doing this for years so this was the final push and motivation. Yesterday I sold my iPad and Apple Watch. They are being shipped today. I’m just waiting on refunds on my AppleCare for my MacBook and iPhone now and I will sell them. Yesterday I had a Nokia 215 arrive as a replacement phone. Also a monster pile of PC bits arrived which have been assembled into a Ubuntu running desktop. I am spending today migrating my data over carefully. When the MacBook sells I will buy a Nikon DSLR. At the end of this I lose perhaps 20% convenience for an immeasurable privacy gain, lose a big chunk of the distractions from my life and end up with some cash left over which I will use to go on holiday. The only thing I will miss is Apple Music but it’ll give me a chance to curate my music collection without distraction again.
- zpeti 5y ago
  Great to hear someone else is doing the same. For me the biggest issue is I have young kids and the convienence of quick photo taking is good on a smartphone. Might look into pinephone or something similar.
  - hughrr 5y ago
    Fortunately mine are teenagers now so that bit of my life is over mostly. I only get photos of them lurking, hiding and giving me the middle finger and that’s about it :)
    - asddubs 5y ago
      well make sure to take plenty of pictures, you will cherish the memories of them lurking, hiding and giving you the middle finger for the rest of your life
  - hutzlibu 5y ago
neilv 5y ago
I blew my entire weekend trying to move off iPhone, to something more trustworthy (a problem that's getting harder, because of some other things going on): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28111995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28111995
- stemc43 5y ago
  lineage os is what I use. oneplus devices are simply superb. but you are forewarned - you can blew through way more then a weekend de-oppressing you digital life.
  - neilv 5y ago
    Exactly. I've invested an hour or two :) towards trying to have the tech I use be less-creepy. It turns out that compromises have to be made. And it's also a moving target.
- cheald 5y ago
  I run CalyxOS on a refurbished Pixel device. Works great, very privacy-respecting out of the box. Good at being a device that you actually own.
  - neilv 5y ago
    Thanks, I was looking at CalyxOS, and plan to try that "next weekend".
    - neilv 5y ago
      In case anyone reads this thread later.. So far, CalyxOS is working out well. The hardest parts were buying a used device for it (uncertainty of getting a version with an unlockable bootloader, and having to avoid all the OLED display problems).
      - cheald 5y ago
        Chiming in with my own experience, as well. The two wrinkles I've encountered: * SafetyNet doesn't work, as expected, which means no Google Pay. Nothing else I use has been impeded, though. * Chromecasting doesn't seem to be implemented in MicroG, so no casting content Other than that, it's been solid.
GeekyBear 5y ago
>It's definitely the last straw for me in terms of apple products. Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, etc. have all been scanning content for those same child porn images for darn near a decade now. >The system that scans cloud drives for illegal images was created by Microsoft and Dartmouth College and donated to NCMEC. The organization creates signatures of the worst known images of child pornography, approximately 16,000 files at present. These file signatures are given to service providers who then try to match them to user files in order to prevent further distribution of the images themselves, a Microsoft spokesperson told NBC News. (Microsoft implemented image-matching technology in its own services, such as Bing and SkyDrive.) "There are two opportunities to look at content," when it's going into a cloud-storage account and when it's leaving, she said. "There is technology to do this," Grant added, pointing out that file signatures — unique hashes or fingerprints — could be used to confirm the nature of the files. https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-private-not-according-fine-print-1c8881731 https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-pr...
- hef19898 5y ago
  Scanning on their cloud storage is different from scanning on users devices. The latter is opening a door to mass surveillance that wasn't even there before. That is the problem, not the scanning itself.
  - GeekyBear 5y ago
    The thing that is changing here is that the images are scanned on the device before being uploaded to the cloud, instead of being scanned on the server after they are uploaded to the cloud. If it hasn't been a problem that Google has been scanning your cloud data for the last decade, it didn't suddenly become a problem now.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      The scanning was already a problem. A lesser one, as not using Google or iCloud avoided it. Now I can't, because technically Apple can now look directly at the phone. No idea hey it is so hard to get that difference.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
nyuszika7h 5y ago
I find it laughable whenever someone says "this is the last straw" because it just shows how incredibly misinformed they are. Yes, backdooring E2E encryption in general is a bad idea. However, consider two things: * iCloud Photos was never E2E encrypted in the first place. They already can scan your photos all they want server-side, and they have been scanning for CSAM since 2019, while Google has been scanning for it since 2009. Yes, if iCloud Photos were to become E2E encrypted leaving in a backdoor like this could be bad, but it's still the lesser of two evils. Would you rather they keep photos non-E2E forever and have even more unfettered access to them than a "backdoor" allows? It does NOT scan photos that are not uploaded to the cloud, despite being on-device. And it's important to note the threshold and manual human review system put in place before the authorities receive any notification at all. * For iMessage, all this entails is warning children under 18 about explicit content, and optionally notifying parents if the child is under 13 and the parent opted in. (I don't think it even sends the photo itself to the parents, but that's not explicitly clarified anywhere.) At no point do Apple or the authorities learn the contents of E2E encrypted iMessages. (Also worth noting: if you use iCloud Backup, your messages are no longer E2E encrypted in the backup, as Apple holds the keys to that. This was true even before the new system was introduced.)
- Notanothertoo 5y ago
  Exactly. This has all been done for 10 years in various forms.
- new299 5y ago
  > Would you rather they keep photos non-E2E forever and have even more unfettered access to them than a "backdoor" allows? It does NOT scan photos that are not uploaded to the cloud, despite being on-device. Yes I'd rather they do this. The fact that they're implementing on device checks doesn't suggest to me that they will be deploying E2E encryption. It suggests to me that they will be expanding on device scanning to all content in the future. If they were going to make iCloud E2E encrypted, it would be a clear win to announce this at the same time as deploying on device scanning.
  - nicce 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

by zpeti 5y ago

Razengan 5y ago

This reads like a pre-prepared rant. > It's definitely the last straw for me in terms of apple products. Uhh and where else will you go where the grass is so much rosier privacy-wise?

misnome 5y ago
> I'm slowly trying to switch to a lightphone (non smartphone)
nix23 5y ago
Pixel4 with LineageOS (Non google apps) F-Droid and Nextcloud for Backup and sync....grass is rosy for me ;)
- JackGreyhat 5y ago
  Same here. Doubles battery life too...
  - nix23 5y ago
    The Nextcloud-Client could be better, but i am pretty happy with my setup.

JK_2234 5y ago

Comments from a different post shows this is "Presumably to implement E2E encryption, while at the same time helping the NCMEC to push for legislation to make it illegal to offer E2E encryption without this backdoor." If this is the case, then It is coming to every device (not just apple) or E2E will be made illegal(or a backdoor).

14 5y ago
End-to-end encryption (E2EE) is a system of communication where only the communicating users can read the messages. In principle, it prevents potential eavesdroppers – including telecom providers, Internet providers, and even the provider of the communication service – from being able to access the cryptographic keys needed to decrypt the conversation.[1] End-to-end encryption is intended to prevent data being read or secretly modified, other than by the true sender and recipient(s). The messages are encrypted by the sender but the third party does not have a means to decrypt them, and stores them encrypted. The recipients retrieve the encrypted data and decrypt it themselves. Because no third parties can decipher the data being communicated or stored, for example, companies that provide end-to-end encryption are unable to hand over texts of their customers' messages to the authorities. Would it even be considered end 2 end encryption based on this Wikipedia definition? I don’t think it meets the definition if apple can determine certain files exist in a conversation.

hughrr 5y ago

It’s too late either way. The fact that it even got this far through implementation says the vendor is not on my side. Not only that once capability is revealed it can be required by governments and manipulated under warrant. Particularly in some regimes, mine included, the vendor can be compelled to do something and not say anything. My comment doesn’t even cover how monumentally flawed the entire thing is either. So I’ve been on the verge of doing this for years so this was the final push and motivation. Yesterday I sold my iPad and Apple Watch. They are being shipped today. I’m just waiting on refunds on my AppleCare for my MacBook and iPhone now and I will sell them. Yesterday I had a Nokia 215 arrive as a replacement phone. Also a monster pile of PC bits arrived which have been assembled into a Ubuntu running desktop. I am spending today migrating my data over carefully. When the MacBook sells I will buy a Nikon DSLR. At the end of this I lose perhaps 20% convenience for an immeasurable privacy gain, lose a big chunk of the distractions from my life and end up with some cash left over which I will use to go on holiday. The only thing I will miss is Apple Music but it’ll give me a chance to curate my music collection without distraction again.

zpeti 5y ago
Great to hear someone else is doing the same. For me the biggest issue is I have young kids and the convienence of quick photo taking is good on a smartphone. Might look into pinephone or something similar.
- hughrr 5y ago
  Fortunately mine are teenagers now so that bit of my life is over mostly. I only get photos of them lurking, hiding and giving me the middle finger and that’s about it :)
  - asddubs 5y ago
    well make sure to take plenty of pictures, you will cherish the memories of them lurking, hiding and giving you the middle finger for the rest of your life
- hutzlibu 5y ago

neilv 5y ago

I blew my entire weekend trying to move off iPhone, to something more trustworthy (a problem that's getting harder, because of some other things going on): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28111995 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28111995

stemc43 5y ago
lineage os is what I use. oneplus devices are simply superb. but you are forewarned - you can blew through way more then a weekend de-oppressing you digital life.
- neilv 5y ago
  Exactly. I've invested an hour or two :) towards trying to have the tech I use be less-creepy. It turns out that compromises have to be made. And it's also a moving target.
cheald 5y ago
I run CalyxOS on a refurbished Pixel device. Works great, very privacy-respecting out of the box. Good at being a device that you actually own.
- neilv 5y ago
  Thanks, I was looking at CalyxOS, and plan to try that "next weekend".
  - neilv 5y ago
    In case anyone reads this thread later.. So far, CalyxOS is working out well. The hardest parts were buying a used device for it (uncertainty of getting a version with an unlockable bootloader, and having to avoid all the OLED display problems).
    - cheald 5y ago
      Chiming in with my own experience, as well. The two wrinkles I've encountered: * SafetyNet doesn't work, as expected, which means no Google Pay. Nothing else I use has been impeded, though. * Chromecasting doesn't seem to be implemented in MicroG, so no casting content Other than that, it's been solid.

GeekyBear 5y ago

>It's definitely the last straw for me in terms of apple products. Google, Microsoft, Facebook, Twitter, etc. have all been scanning content for those same child porn images for darn near a decade now. >The system that scans cloud drives for illegal images was created by Microsoft and Dartmouth College and donated to NCMEC. The organization creates signatures of the worst known images of child pornography, approximately 16,000 files at present. These file signatures are given to service providers who then try to match them to user files in order to prevent further distribution of the images themselves, a Microsoft spokesperson told NBC News. (Microsoft implemented image-matching technology in its own services, such as Bing and SkyDrive.) "There are two opportunities to look at content," when it's going into a cloud-storage account and when it's leaving, she said. "There is technology to do this," Grant added, pointing out that file signatures — unique hashes or fingerprints — could be used to confirm the nature of the files. https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-private-not-according-fine-print-1c8881731 https://www.nbcnews.com/technolog/your-cloud-drive-really-pr...

hef19898 5y ago
Scanning on their cloud storage is different from scanning on users devices. The latter is opening a door to mass surveillance that wasn't even there before. That is the problem, not the scanning itself.
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  The thing that is changing here is that the images are scanned on the device before being uploaded to the cloud, instead of being scanned on the server after they are uploaded to the cloud. If it hasn't been a problem that Google has been scanning your cloud data for the last decade, it didn't suddenly become a problem now.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    The scanning was already a problem. A lesser one, as not using Google or iCloud avoided it. Now I can't, because technically Apple can now look directly at the phone. No idea hey it is so hard to get that difference.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

nyuszika7h 5y ago

I find it laughable whenever someone says "this is the last straw" because it just shows how incredibly misinformed they are. Yes, backdooring E2E encryption in general is a bad idea. However, consider two things: * iCloud Photos was never E2E encrypted in the first place. They already can scan your photos all they want server-side, and they have been scanning for CSAM since 2019, while Google has been scanning for it since 2009. Yes, if iCloud Photos were to become E2E encrypted leaving in a backdoor like this could be bad, but it's still the lesser of two evils. Would you rather they keep photos non-E2E forever and have even more unfettered access to them than a "backdoor" allows? It does NOT scan photos that are not uploaded to the cloud, despite being on-device. And it's important to note the threshold and manual human review system put in place before the authorities receive any notification at all. * For iMessage, all this entails is warning children under 18 about explicit content, and optionally notifying parents if the child is under 13 and the parent opted in. (I don't think it even sends the photo itself to the parents, but that's not explicitly clarified anywhere.) At no point do Apple or the authorities learn the contents of E2E encrypted iMessages. (Also worth noting: if you use iCloud Backup, your messages are no longer E2E encrypted in the backup, as Apple holds the keys to that. This was true even before the new system was introduced.)

Notanothertoo 5y ago
Exactly. This has all been done for 10 years in various forms.
new299 5y ago
> Would you rather they keep photos non-E2E forever and have even more unfettered access to them than a "backdoor" allows? It does NOT scan photos that are not uploaded to the cloud, despite being on-device. Yes I'd rather they do this. The fact that they're implementing on device checks doesn't suggest to me that they will be deploying E2E encryption. It suggests to me that they will be expanding on device scanning to all content in the future. If they were going to make iCloud E2E encrypted, it would be a clear win to announce this at the same time as deploying on device scanning.
- nicce 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]