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1password is considering a self-hosted option to store vaults

297 points by NmAmDa 5y ago

Hackbraten 5y ago
Link to the relevant survey: https://survey.1password.com/self-host/ https://survey.1password.com/self-host/
joelbondurant 5y ago
They must use the USA Fact Check algorithm to purify state property objects.
dmitriid 5y ago
proper link to the post: https://1password.community/discussion/comment/602482/#Comment_602482 https://1password.community/discussion/comment/602482/#Comme...
danieldk 5y ago
Semi-related: this survey was announced alongside 1Password 8 for Windows early access. Apparently 1Password 8 for Windows uses Electron and there was some discussion about AgileBits wanting to move to the same architecture on all platforms. Does anyone know if 1Password 8 on macOS will also be an Electron app? Their Linux Electron app is pretty good and definitely much better than having no 1Password at all. However, this would be a sad ending for what started out as a great, efficient, native Mac-only application. I can understand why AgileBits would make this choice. For most users, Electron is probably not a big issue, if they'd notice at all. But as someone who loves native macOS apps, it just makes me sad.
- throwaway46294 5y ago
  I have heard that Linux was the start, Windows is the next one to get the Electron treatment, and Mac is next.
  - dijit 5y ago
    But the linux 1Password program is "electron" in name only; it's actually some kind of Rust program; I'm not 100% sure how it works but it's definitely compiled with cargo.
    - soziawa 5y ago
      What does Electron in name only mean? Either electron is included or it isn't. Whether you are using Rust through native bindings or through WebAssembly does not really matter does it?
      - dijit 5y ago
        90% of the functionality is written in rust components and the UI is a very slim wrapper around those APIs; it seems. And even then it looks like the JS is WASM compiled from rust. It’s not implemented in JavaScript/typescript is what I mean. As such it seems to be lean on my system.
        mpalmer 5y ago
        If it is Electron, I don't think you can credibly call an entire Chromium instance a "very slim wrapper".
        selfup 5y ago
        There's a chance it's using Tauri (rust) https://tauri.studio/en/ https://tauri.studio/en/ if it's truly not using Electron but a similar concept. However WASM builds in Electron would make more sense if they use the term Electron.
        aniforprez 5y ago
        Link below to the behind-the-scenes article. I have no experience using the Linux app so I'm not sure of the performance but a lot of the core seems to be written in Rust compiled to WASM which is the way it's now being done for their browser extension. Personally everyone keeps cribbing about electron but I hope 1Password has found a way to make good on performance https://dteare.medium.com/behind-the-scenes-of-1password-for-linux-d59b19143a23 https://dteare.medium.com/behind-the-scenes-of-1password-for...
- tailspin2019 5y ago
  This would be a real shame. My only complaint about 1Password is occasional performance blips and slowdowns. Which seem to have been getting worse over time (along with unreliable browser integration). I can’t see how moving to electron on Mac would help that…
- aikinai 5y ago
  Thanks for the warning about this. I was already disappointed in the direction 1Password has been taking, and moving to Electron would certainly be the last straw. It’s totally reasonable that they want to cheap out on the actual software and expand their business into more lucrative services, but it’s not what I personally want in a password manager. So hopefully someone else, maybe a lone develop that doesn’t need perpetual growth, will make a good, standalone, native Mac password manager. Keychain itself is getting better and more fleshed out UX, but it’s still not flexible enough to trust for everything unfortunately.
  - latexr 5y ago
    > So hopefully someone else, maybe a lone develop that doesn’t need perpetual growth, will make a good, standalone, native Mac password manager. You may wish to look into Secrets: https://outercorner.com/secrets-mac/ https://outercorner.com/secrets-mac/
    - aikinai 5y ago
      Thank you so much for this recommendation! This looks like exactly what I hoped existed, basically 1Password without all of the striving to be more than an app. Also, I already have a SetApp subscription so the desktop version is effectively free.
    - 8fingerlouie 5y ago
      I wasn't aware of Secrets. I will certainly look into it. It appears to check all the boxes that 1Password used to check.
  - jeromegv 5y ago
    Looks like you’re looking for a reason but none of that was announced or even hinted as happening on macOS. They have one of the best Mac native app, I doubt it’s part of their plan.
    - aikinai 5y ago
      Before this thread, I never considered they might deprecate the native app, but there seemed to be a lot of premonition here that it’s on the horizon. I wasn’t actively looking to find a replacement, but I was certainly not happy to see them taking venture funding. That’s great in some contexts, but explicit pressure to grow revenue enough to support 500 people and pay back a bunch of venture capitalists isn’t very conducive to writing quality software.
- gumby 5y ago
  One reason I use 1Password is because it’s a native app. Electron apps never have the affordances of the platform, so are frustrating to use whenever you leave the “happy path”. Because it’s so heavily used this would be a reason to leave it. Separately, Electron is itself a large piece of code and integrating it would increase the attack surface — of a piece of security code! Another good reason to switch if this comes to pass.
  - another_kel 5y ago
    To be fair: 1password native app on windows was horrible and felt 3 times slower than 8.0(electron) beta.
  - mekster 5y ago
    > Electron is itself a large piece of code and integrating it would increase the attack surface At the same time, the most audited code it there. Maybe you don't use a GUI browser.
- _moof 5y ago
  Good lord, it's like they're trying to ruin it.
- rcarmo 5y ago
  Well, if 1Password switches to Electron on the Mac, then I’m not moving away from 1Password 6…
- ahmedalsudani 5y ago
  Ugh. Guess it will be time to switch password managers again.
featdd 5y ago
When I was evaluating which password manager to use I instantly favoroud 1password, but not having the possibility to self host my data was non-negotiable for me. I will definitely stay up to date whether this really comes or not.
- faeyanpiraat 5y ago
  What’s wrong with their hosting? I’m happy that I don’t have to manage a hardened up-to-date server just for this.
  - manicdee 5y ago
    If you stop paying them, you stop being able to update your passwords. Also if you can't connect to their servers, you can't synchronise your passwords between devices. Also non-US companies will have a concern about storing sensitive material on US-based services given the powers the US is giving itself regarding intercepting communications or seizing data centres.
    - tpetry 5y ago
      You are not storing passwords in plaintext on their servers. They are very open and document on how it works. Basically you give them fully encrypted information they can‘t use for anything
      - manicdee 5y ago
        "Fully encrypted" doesn't matter if an attacker finds a vulnerability in 1Passwords encryption, or simply gets hold of the cipher text and has time and money on their side. This is pretty fundamental security practise: don't give people stuff they don't need to have, and that means you face less risk of that stuff being lost or misused.
    - srswtf123 5y ago
      Aren’t they based in Canada, not the US?
LazyOne 5y ago
I've been using the Bitwarden_RS, now Vaultwarden for a long time and love it. It's just the backend API implementation so you still use the official Bitwarden clients and extensions.
- mekster 5y ago
  I almost feel sorry to the official developer as it's so well built. It probably covers most people's needs. But it's because the official daemon takes more resource by using MS SQL server and Vault Warden takes such a tiny resource.
PaulKeeble 5y ago
Bitwarden_rs and keypassxc are what dominate in this space at the moment, with bitwarden_rs being the self hosted option directly where keypass is local but usually combined with file synchronisation software like NextCloud. Both are pretty good and get the job done without having to put passwords into another companies care.
- Macha 5y ago
  Heads up, bitwarden_rs rebranded to vaultwarden a few months back: https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden/discussions/1642 https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden/discussions/1642
- mekster 5y ago
  Dominate as in from what source? Those 2 are having such a tiny usage only over geeks and everyone else are using others with more brand recognition.
  - rovr138 5y ago
    Dominate in this space, self-hosted options. Mainly geeks are the ones that will self-host so it looks like a fair comparison.
shitloadofbooks 5y ago
I'm absolutely loving 1Password. The Kubernetes Operator is slick and painless. Syncs with 1Password and stuffs the passwords in standard Kubernetes Secrets, meaning anyone can understand what's going on versus something like say Vault.
- thisdrunkdane 5y ago
  Is this using the m2m API they recently introduced? Where you host a kind of API shim in your infrastructure? To me the pricing of it seems pretty steep if you want to give each service it’s own key?
- sofixa 5y ago
  > Syncs with 1Password and stuffs the passwords in standard Kubernetes Secrets, meaning anyone can understand what's going on versus something like say Vault. Vault is much more ( and better ) than just password storage, but isn't that hard to use either. Kubernetes Secrets aren't great or very secret, so just dumping stuff there from 1Password seems like... Of very limited utility. Having static secrets across multiple clusters and visible from a web UI, that's it?
AnonC 5y ago
They made the standalone license almost impossible to find and get, forced a subscription on users, and made the password vault storage online for the subscriptions. Now this self-hosting survey comes as a surprise, and it would be of some relief if/when it’s implemented. I do wonder how the licensing and pricing will be handled though. Bitwarden officially allows self-hosting for the personal use tiers, but it seems to have some license purchase requirements even for the self-hosted options (other than the free tier). Is there any password management application out there that makes sharing passwords or password vaults easy but is also free? I’ve looked at KeePassXC and Bitwarden. The former isn’t easy to use for sharing and sharing permissions. The latter doesn’t offer sharing among more than two people in the free tier.
- gizdan 5y ago
  You can self-host vaultwarden (formerly bitwarden_rs), which gives full enterprise functionality.
  - fy20 5y ago
    I do this, works perfectly for sharing common passwords among my family (streaming services and utilities mainly). I moved from 1Password, and my main gripe with Bitwarden are the apps aren't as polished. If it's not too expensive I'd consider switching back (1Password family is $60 per year, so I assume this will be less).
    - afavour 5y ago
      I had the exact same experience. I don’t want to care about the app UI etc but when you use a password manager as often as you do it really matters. Not to mention selling the idea to less tech-savvy family members, it really does have to be as simple as can be.
      - hanklazard 5y ago
        I self-host Bitwarden_rs and use the client apps on Windows, Linux, and MacOS. To me, the UI seems very usable, polished and attractive. It doesn’t seem that different from 1Password, which I switched from a few years ago. What exactly about the UI needs improvement?
giorgioz 5y ago
Is the 1Password Support Community website built with something public like a SaaS or open source project? https://1password.community/ https://1password.community/
- moepstar 5y ago
  That one seems to be built with Vanilla Forums: https://vanillaforums.com/en/ https://vanillaforums.com/en/
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
arthur_sav 5y ago
You used to be able to do that when they still had licenses.
soziawa 5y ago
A direct link to the announcement post and the survey / announcement signup: https://1password.community/discussion/comment/604038/#Comment_604038 https://1password.community/discussion/comment/604038/#Comme... After hiding the standalone license this would put a lot of trust back into 1Password.
- clajiness 5y ago
  Thank you for the link!
cosmolev 5y ago
I am still on 1Password 6 because it is the last version with the self-hosted vault.
- geerlingguy 5y ago
  I'm on 1Password 7 and am syncing my local vault through Dropbox. I don't pay any subscription...
  - yreg 5y ago
    How did you do that? Did you port license from an older 1Password, or is there some way to buy 1Password 7?
    - bleachedsleet 5y ago
      Not the parent poster, but this can be done from inside the app. They hid the link, but the purchase flow is still available from inside 1Password.
      - geerlingguy 5y ago
        Yeah this is what I did.
      - yreg 5y ago
        Thank you, I'll check it out.
  - mlindner 5y ago
    Please let us know how you did this. I'm stuck on 6 because I didn't want to pay a subscription.
- yreg 5y ago
  Same here. It's a neat app, I don't feel like I'm missing something. The main bummer is no Safari extension, which (together with no RES) is preventing me from using Safari as my main browser. Looking back at the times ~10 years ago, it was a pretty good investment to buy software licenses before everything went SaaS.
encryptluks2 5y ago
There are so many good open source alternatives that already offer this they probably no longer have a choice. Which password software would you want to choose, the open source one offering superior privacy or the paid one that only adopts better security when they start losing a lot of customers.
MrStonedOne 5y ago
> To clarify, in 1Password 7 we had two types of vaults: vaults used with the 1Password.com service and what we called "local vaults" or "standalone vaults" which were synced however you decided to, typically Dropbox or iCloud. > Assuming we're talking about the same feature, then the answer is no, they are not implemented as the new releases do not have support for local/standalone vaults and 1Password 7 will be the last version to support them. The new apps rely on the server to perform a lot of the heavy lifting so we will not be adding support for local vaults as they existed in earlier versions. ... "We took away a feature that let people not pay us a subscription for no reason and are now maybe gonna think about re-adding it but making it more complex to setup so nobody uses it and we'll get more money." Can anybody tell me why HIBP still supports them?
- Nullabillity 5y ago
  Same reason that they presumably supported them in the first place: money?
post_break 5y ago
So like what bitwarden does? So far I've been happy using bitwarden after 1password boiled the frog with their pricing.
discobean 5y ago
too little too late
nmg 5y ago
Savvy - for me Bitwarden's implementation of self-hosting is the biggest gesture of mutual trust that makes it feel so solid
kenneth 5y ago
I've been self hosting 1Password for about a decade without any issues. There's always been a way around the subscription stuff. I honestly don't mind paying the subscription pricing, just didn't like the idea of storing my passwords on their service with everyone else's.
- Terretta 5y ago
  You don’t like the idea of storing opaque bits along with everyone else’s equally opaque bits? So long as the secret key to these bits is yours, not theirs, what’s the catch?
  - nucleardog 5y ago
    For a whole class of potential (if unlikely) situations, it shifts from me potentially being caught up in a mass hack, response to an overly broad warrant, etc to needing be targeted specifically. Passphrase compromised? If they're hosting, you know exactly where to go to access my passwords. If I'm hosting, I can tell you that I use 1Password and my master password and I'm still _relatively_ safe in that you don't even know where to find a copy of my password database. Encryption broken (whether algorithm or implementation)? If they're hosting, they've now become an _extremely_ valuable target as they're holding a bunch of paid-for accounts, credit cards, banking details, personal identity documents, etc. Not necessarily super-valuable in a one-off situation, but if you could grab a million password databases at once... Which wouldn't include mine, because it's off on my own server. Legal abuse? An overly broad warrant could vacuum up every database in their possession. Presumably the government can't open the vaults, but if they _really_ cared how sure are you? Would you be comfortable not changing all of your passwords (but can't change your identity documents...) if the NSA asked for a copy of your database? If my data's never in their possession, then I'd need to be targeted specifically with a warrant. For something I'm using to store all of my accounts, banking details (both logins as well as account and routing numbers), personal identity documents, MFA backups, key backups, software licenses, and more... my question for you would be more "Why would I take any additional risk when I don't have to?" I'd rather not be within the same blast radius as all the other 1Password users. Edited to add: Also, outside of the "why don't I want my data sitting beside everyone else's", more generally with regards to a hosted option is where my data goes if I have any payment problems, and availability of my data being within my control (if my server goes down, I can fix it--if they have a massive week long outage I just need to twiddle my thumbs potentially without access to... anything).
notafraudster 5y ago
I used 1password for about ten years. Every interaction I had with the developers was pretty hostile. Even if they encouraged self-hosting and version-based upgrading instead of a SaaS, I'd still stick with a competitor. At this point I'm irrationally bothered by the fact that it's a 100+ staff company just to make a product that's no better than it was when they had 10 staff and is now more expensive.
- dawnerd 5y ago
  Just to add another data point, I’ve been with them since almost day one and every interaction I’ve had has been very nice. They even got my data out of a backup when something weird happened when switching from a business to family plan. (I might be a weird edge case since my account shows as both family and business a custom domain).
  - paulryanrogers 5y ago
    If they can get your data out then do they have access to your keys?
    - gokhan 5y ago
      Most probably encrypted data out of a backup for you to use after unlocking.
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > At this point I'm irrationally bothered by the fact that it's a 100+ staff company just to make a product that's no better than it was when they had 10 staff and is now more expensive. Supporting more customers and larger scale is inherently more expensive, but I still don’t understand how the product feels like it peaked about 5 years ago and has been treading water ever since. I don’t mind paying $50 or even $100 for a good password manager that I could rely on for several years. However, it feels like these moves toward subscription software are aimed at extracting $300 or more from me for the same time period, all while failing to provide a decently updated experience. I do routinely pay $150/year or more for other software packages like JetBrains IDEs, but those are constantly updated. With 1Password it feels like the move to subscription was a step backwards in features with a huge step up in long term price. No thanks.
DavideNL 5y ago
I wonder whether they are considering this because people are leaving 1Password for Bitwarden, which has a self-hosted option… Personally i would never pay for a 1Password subscription. I did buy all the standalone versions/upgrades, since day1.
- jeromegv 5y ago
  There might be some anecdata on hacker news but 1Password user base has been constantly growing.
celeritascelery 5y ago
I always assumed that they didn’t have the keys to unlock my vault, so even if something was compromised it is all encrypted with no way for them to access it. What is the advantage of self hosting?
- ceocoder 5y ago
  Not having to rely at all on someone else’s infrastructure- including ssl certs. Not worrying about credit card expiring or any pivots in business.
- miked85 5y ago
  The key word here is assumed. I am not saying they have access, but considering the implications if someone else could access all of my passwords, I would rather not take the risk.
- cdumler 5y ago
  TLDR; Big reason is policing is going to get a lot more invasive; however, I have found the very positive reflection that my in-house services are far more reliable. I have the advantage that I am a programmer, so I can deal with a bit of reading install guides and arcane configuration. I was surprised to learn just how reliable things can be. Open Source tends to move forwards, so I don't have features taken from me. In recent memory, both 1Password and Fantastical have taken my features in the name of subscriptions. I installed ZigBee home automation with a Hubitat. It has never failed me. Internet and Wi-Fi can be down and things still work. The unreliable part is Google Nest (invalidates tokens every now and then) and Apple Siri (randomly can't do things at times). In short, I can automatically scan and OCR documents, have file services, movie and music, and more, and it all just works. /rant mode enabled It has become obvious to me that the law is quickly becoming snitch based. With so much information being hosted online, it's just too tempting a target to not use it for other purposes. Google and Facebook are just the leaders in where this is going. There is just no reason for law enforcement to not scan for dissonant behavior at some point, just as they roam the roads looking for violators. As more jobs become remote, the argument will be "the roads of the 21st century are on the Internet." Difference before is if you get pulled over on the road, you can log it. You know when and where it happened. You have evidence of the encounter. You can see what was used against you and who. The new system you requires you to try to prove your innocence. You won't know when or where you were targeted. You are not allowed to inspect the software or see the matching hash information. You must open your phone to prove the file is innocent, at which is is legal for the police to capture data. Finally, it is NOT against the law for law enforcement to lie to you [1]. This utterly stacks the deck against you. All of this could be avoided if at the time of the event you could record what happened and challenge it, because ultimately law enforcement is a money making scheme. Cops are the largest thieving group in America, so treat them like it[2]: a car alarm doesn't stop them, it's just means most thieves will choose an easier target. So, private services doesn't stop a cop, but following cloud events is a lot easier than trying to get into my house. My sincere hope is that the cloud keeps them busy enough to stay far away from me. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZlrf8CiM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZlrf8CiM4 [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...
lisper 5y ago
I've never understood why anyone who takes security seriously would even consider a non-self-hosted (and non-open-source) password manager, especially after the recent Apple shenanigans. If it's not open-source and self-hosted then your security is entirely dependent on the good will of your provider. If they decide to screw you, they can. And it's not just the good will of the people running your provider today that you have to bet on, it is the continued good will of whoever ends up running your provider tomorrow or after they get acquired. It seems like a bad bet to me in the long run.
- YPPH 5y ago
  Convenience. A self-hosted password manager really shouldn't be exposed to the internet. If you are making it accessible over the internet, it's a far greater security threat imo. You're just not going to be able to keep it up to the same security standards as a large production install, like what the Bitwarden folks have going. Needing to VPN or SSH tunnel into my home network each time I need a password is far too inconvenient. Not to mention the spared effort in not needing to regularly back up your vault or worrying about keeping the service available.
  - lisper 5y ago
    If it's properly encrypted you should be able to publish it on github and still be more secure than entrusting it to a third party.
    - YPPH 5y ago
      Publishing your vault of passwords on a public GitHub repository seems like a pretty bad idea, no matter how well you trust the client-side encryption code. I'm no expert on the subject, but I suspect these password managers use a sophisticated mechanism of authentication (for accessing the vault) as well as encrypting of the actual contents of the vault. The effect of this means that Bob's encrypted vault cannot be downloaded by an attacker without the attacker first authenticating to the server.
epmaybe 5y ago
Am I doing something wrong by having my passwords stored in iCloud?
- easton 5y ago
  Not if you don’t use Windows or a non-Safari browser on macOS. If you’re all in on Apple it’s fine.
D-Nice 5y ago
Vaults, self-hosting, all these needless complications imo for what should be simple. Just give me a secure deterministic password from a website address + master pass combo. That's exactly what my project, https://app.srspass.com https://app.srspass.com aims to do. Even though I have a super redundant NAS setup, I'd really hate to depend on a vault and have it all disappear due to some disaster. With SrsPass, I just remember one password, have a recovery/backup phrase written somewhere that it gives me which adds 128-bit of entropy to each generated password and boom, that's my password manager. Stateless, deterministic, and by using argon2id, PHC winner, on the client side it is doing what most password backends should be, but often aren't doing, which is strong memory-hard password hashing.
- kdmdndnsk 5y ago
  I'm sorry, maybe I'm just dense, but how can the output of your generator be deterministic if you add entropy? Further, if it's deterministic, how is this different from just running your password through a hashing algorithm and then using the hash as your password? The only extra information an attacker has to figure out is what hashing algorithm you used and he can generate all of your passwords from your memorized one. Right? That or I don't understand what you are describing.
- mormegil 5y ago
  I think there should be (and probably already is) an FAQ page explaining why a "stateless password manager" is not a great idea for a common user. I guess the answers to this SE question might be a good start: https://security.stackexchange.com/q/214301/2530 https://security.stackexchange.com/q/214301/2530
iambateman 5y ago
I understand that 1Password is a business and it’s their prerogative to make money. In 2014 I switched to self-hosted password management with 1P and it changed my life. Today, my 1P vaults are a daily, indispensable part of computing. There are thousands of records and my overall security is dramatically higher. Fast forward a few years and I heard that they had introduced a subscription. Why? It’s not their fault: everyone does it. But is this really a subscription service? The applications on my computer and phone have worked smashingly well for years. Is there enough of an ongoing need for development as to require a subscription? I’d rather pay a periodic upgrade fee as maintenance is required. At the same time, independent and decentralized password management makes sense. I don’t want AmaGooSoft holding my passwords to everything. In any event, I will continue to use older versions of password management to save on the subscription.
- tchalla 5y ago
  Also, why should you lose access to features because you stopped subscribing? You paid for them and now you don't want to support future features. Why should you lose access to past ones?
_moof 5y ago
Too little, too late. I used 1Password for ten years, but I've switched to a different password manager and I'm happy with it.
- pacomerh 5y ago
  I use KeepassXC selfhosted, very happy with it
- nahname 5y ago
  What did you switch too?
frugalmail 5y ago
Was so happy when I moved from 1password to Bitwarden. Far more reasonable pricing and a better experience IMO.
aborsy 5y ago
Keepassxc on Dropbox works well for individuals. Do Bitwarden or 1password add to this? They seem to be for enterprise.
helloworld11 5y ago
Frankly, given all the major data leaks of recent years and months, and not to mention ransomware incidents against even large, supposedly well-secured organizations, I fail to see how anyone with a modicum of security awareness could recommend or use a centralized password manager platform of any kind for their own security. People mention "convenience" but i'd say fuck that. Convenience is also how many seem to justify the total sell-off of their digital and financial privacy.
rcarmo 5y ago
This would make me consider upgrading to 7/Pro. I’ve resisted to do so because I am fundamentally opposed to the way they are centralizing the product and selling it in a subscription model, but a private vault server I could share inside a small business (or family) would be something I would buy.
rStar 5y ago
1password needs to admit they screwed up by trying to force their customers into migrating to their cloud product. 1password needs to provide a first class service option to customers that want nothing to do with the 1password cloud.
kylehotchkiss 5y ago
While I didn’t love 1Password moving to the cloud because I liked the personal license, it did allow my company to switch from lastpass to 1Password, which was a sizable improvement for password management and allows us to use 1pass’ “2fa” that would at least protect against leaked passwords. HIBP support is cool. Secrets automation seems like an interesting vault alternative. So long as 1Password doesn’t get acquired and can keep hiring and paying strong cryptography experts, I’m happy with their direction. I’d ultimately prefer to host my own 1Password server at home if there was an option though, data ownership is an increasingly difficult thing to achieve.

297 points by NmAmDa 5y ago

Hackbraten 5y ago

Link to the relevant survey: https://survey.1password.com/self-host/ https://survey.1password.com/self-host/

joelbondurant 5y ago

They must use the USA Fact Check algorithm to purify state property objects.

dmitriid 5y ago

proper link to the post: https://1password.community/discussion/comment/602482/#Comment_602482 https://1password.community/discussion/comment/602482/#Comme...

danieldk 5y ago

Semi-related: this survey was announced alongside 1Password 8 for Windows early access. Apparently 1Password 8 for Windows uses Electron and there was some discussion about AgileBits wanting to move to the same architecture on all platforms. Does anyone know if 1Password 8 on macOS will also be an Electron app? Their Linux Electron app is pretty good and definitely much better than having no 1Password at all. However, this would be a sad ending for what started out as a great, efficient, native Mac-only application. I can understand why AgileBits would make this choice. For most users, Electron is probably not a big issue, if they'd notice at all. But as someone who loves native macOS apps, it just makes me sad.

throwaway46294 5y ago
I have heard that Linux was the start, Windows is the next one to get the Electron treatment, and Mac is next.
- dijit 5y ago
  But the linux 1Password program is "electron" in name only; it's actually some kind of Rust program; I'm not 100% sure how it works but it's definitely compiled with cargo.
  - soziawa 5y ago
    What does Electron in name only mean? Either electron is included or it isn't. Whether you are using Rust through native bindings or through WebAssembly does not really matter does it?
    - dijit 5y ago
      90% of the functionality is written in rust components and the UI is a very slim wrapper around those APIs; it seems. And even then it looks like the JS is WASM compiled from rust. It’s not implemented in JavaScript/typescript is what I mean. As such it seems to be lean on my system.
      - mpalmer 5y ago
        If it is Electron, I don't think you can credibly call an entire Chromium instance a "very slim wrapper".
        selfup 5y ago
        There's a chance it's using Tauri (rust) https://tauri.studio/en/ https://tauri.studio/en/ if it's truly not using Electron but a similar concept. However WASM builds in Electron would make more sense if they use the term Electron.
        aniforprez 5y ago
        Link below to the behind-the-scenes article. I have no experience using the Linux app so I'm not sure of the performance but a lot of the core seems to be written in Rust compiled to WASM which is the way it's now being done for their browser extension. Personally everyone keeps cribbing about electron but I hope 1Password has found a way to make good on performance https://dteare.medium.com/behind-the-scenes-of-1password-for-linux-d59b19143a23 https://dteare.medium.com/behind-the-scenes-of-1password-for...
tailspin2019 5y ago
This would be a real shame. My only complaint about 1Password is occasional performance blips and slowdowns. Which seem to have been getting worse over time (along with unreliable browser integration). I can’t see how moving to electron on Mac would help that…
aikinai 5y ago
Thanks for the warning about this. I was already disappointed in the direction 1Password has been taking, and moving to Electron would certainly be the last straw. It’s totally reasonable that they want to cheap out on the actual software and expand their business into more lucrative services, but it’s not what I personally want in a password manager. So hopefully someone else, maybe a lone develop that doesn’t need perpetual growth, will make a good, standalone, native Mac password manager. Keychain itself is getting better and more fleshed out UX, but it’s still not flexible enough to trust for everything unfortunately.
- latexr 5y ago
  > So hopefully someone else, maybe a lone develop that doesn’t need perpetual growth, will make a good, standalone, native Mac password manager. You may wish to look into Secrets: https://outercorner.com/secrets-mac/ https://outercorner.com/secrets-mac/
  - aikinai 5y ago
    Thank you so much for this recommendation! This looks like exactly what I hoped existed, basically 1Password without all of the striving to be more than an app. Also, I already have a SetApp subscription so the desktop version is effectively free.
  - 8fingerlouie 5y ago
    I wasn't aware of Secrets. I will certainly look into it. It appears to check all the boxes that 1Password used to check.
- jeromegv 5y ago
  Looks like you’re looking for a reason but none of that was announced or even hinted as happening on macOS. They have one of the best Mac native app, I doubt it’s part of their plan.
  - aikinai 5y ago
    Before this thread, I never considered they might deprecate the native app, but there seemed to be a lot of premonition here that it’s on the horizon. I wasn’t actively looking to find a replacement, but I was certainly not happy to see them taking venture funding. That’s great in some contexts, but explicit pressure to grow revenue enough to support 500 people and pay back a bunch of venture capitalists isn’t very conducive to writing quality software.
gumby 5y ago
One reason I use 1Password is because it’s a native app. Electron apps never have the affordances of the platform, so are frustrating to use whenever you leave the “happy path”. Because it’s so heavily used this would be a reason to leave it. Separately, Electron is itself a large piece of code and integrating it would increase the attack surface — of a piece of security code! Another good reason to switch if this comes to pass.
- another_kel 5y ago
  To be fair: 1password native app on windows was horrible and felt 3 times slower than 8.0(electron) beta.
- mekster 5y ago
  > Electron is itself a large piece of code and integrating it would increase the attack surface At the same time, the most audited code it there. Maybe you don't use a GUI browser.
_moof 5y ago
Good lord, it's like they're trying to ruin it.
rcarmo 5y ago
Well, if 1Password switches to Electron on the Mac, then I’m not moving away from 1Password 6…
ahmedalsudani 5y ago
Ugh. Guess it will be time to switch password managers again.

featdd 5y ago

When I was evaluating which password manager to use I instantly favoroud 1password, but not having the possibility to self host my data was non-negotiable for me. I will definitely stay up to date whether this really comes or not.

faeyanpiraat 5y ago
What’s wrong with their hosting? I’m happy that I don’t have to manage a hardened up-to-date server just for this.
- manicdee 5y ago
  If you stop paying them, you stop being able to update your passwords. Also if you can't connect to their servers, you can't synchronise your passwords between devices. Also non-US companies will have a concern about storing sensitive material on US-based services given the powers the US is giving itself regarding intercepting communications or seizing data centres.
  - tpetry 5y ago
    You are not storing passwords in plaintext on their servers. They are very open and document on how it works. Basically you give them fully encrypted information they can‘t use for anything
    - manicdee 5y ago
      "Fully encrypted" doesn't matter if an attacker finds a vulnerability in 1Passwords encryption, or simply gets hold of the cipher text and has time and money on their side. This is pretty fundamental security practise: don't give people stuff they don't need to have, and that means you face less risk of that stuff being lost or misused.
  - srswtf123 5y ago
    Aren’t they based in Canada, not the US?

LazyOne 5y ago

I've been using the Bitwarden_RS, now Vaultwarden for a long time and love it. It's just the backend API implementation so you still use the official Bitwarden clients and extensions.

mekster 5y ago
I almost feel sorry to the official developer as it's so well built. It probably covers most people's needs. But it's because the official daemon takes more resource by using MS SQL server and Vault Warden takes such a tiny resource.

PaulKeeble 5y ago

Bitwarden_rs and keypassxc are what dominate in this space at the moment, with bitwarden_rs being the self hosted option directly where keypass is local but usually combined with file synchronisation software like NextCloud. Both are pretty good and get the job done without having to put passwords into another companies care.

Macha 5y ago
Heads up, bitwarden_rs rebranded to vaultwarden a few months back: https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden/discussions/1642 https://github.com/dani-garcia/vaultwarden/discussions/1642
mekster 5y ago
Dominate as in from what source? Those 2 are having such a tiny usage only over geeks and everyone else are using others with more brand recognition.
- rovr138 5y ago
  Dominate in this space, self-hosted options. Mainly geeks are the ones that will self-host so it looks like a fair comparison.

shitloadofbooks 5y ago

I'm absolutely loving 1Password. The Kubernetes Operator is slick and painless. Syncs with 1Password and stuffs the passwords in standard Kubernetes Secrets, meaning anyone can understand what's going on versus something like say Vault.

thisdrunkdane 5y ago
Is this using the m2m API they recently introduced? Where you host a kind of API shim in your infrastructure? To me the pricing of it seems pretty steep if you want to give each service it’s own key?
sofixa 5y ago
> Syncs with 1Password and stuffs the passwords in standard Kubernetes Secrets, meaning anyone can understand what's going on versus something like say Vault. Vault is much more ( and better ) than just password storage, but isn't that hard to use either. Kubernetes Secrets aren't great or very secret, so just dumping stuff there from 1Password seems like... Of very limited utility. Having static secrets across multiple clusters and visible from a web UI, that's it?

AnonC 5y ago

They made the standalone license almost impossible to find and get, forced a subscription on users, and made the password vault storage online for the subscriptions. Now this self-hosting survey comes as a surprise, and it would be of some relief if/when it’s implemented. I do wonder how the licensing and pricing will be handled though. Bitwarden officially allows self-hosting for the personal use tiers, but it seems to have some license purchase requirements even for the self-hosted options (other than the free tier). Is there any password management application out there that makes sharing passwords or password vaults easy but is also free? I’ve looked at KeePassXC and Bitwarden. The former isn’t easy to use for sharing and sharing permissions. The latter doesn’t offer sharing among more than two people in the free tier.

gizdan 5y ago
You can self-host vaultwarden (formerly bitwarden_rs), which gives full enterprise functionality.
- fy20 5y ago
  I do this, works perfectly for sharing common passwords among my family (streaming services and utilities mainly). I moved from 1Password, and my main gripe with Bitwarden are the apps aren't as polished. If it's not too expensive I'd consider switching back (1Password family is $60 per year, so I assume this will be less).
  - afavour 5y ago
    I had the exact same experience. I don’t want to care about the app UI etc but when you use a password manager as often as you do it really matters. Not to mention selling the idea to less tech-savvy family members, it really does have to be as simple as can be.
    - hanklazard 5y ago
      I self-host Bitwarden_rs and use the client apps on Windows, Linux, and MacOS. To me, the UI seems very usable, polished and attractive. It doesn’t seem that different from 1Password, which I switched from a few years ago. What exactly about the UI needs improvement?

giorgioz 5y ago

Is the 1Password Support Community website built with something public like a SaaS or open source project? https://1password.community/ https://1password.community/

moepstar 5y ago
That one seems to be built with Vanilla Forums: https://vanillaforums.com/en/ https://vanillaforums.com/en/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

arthur_sav 5y ago

You used to be able to do that when they still had licenses.

soziawa 5y ago

A direct link to the announcement post and the survey / announcement signup: https://1password.community/discussion/comment/604038/#Comment_604038 https://1password.community/discussion/comment/604038/#Comme... After hiding the standalone license this would put a lot of trust back into 1Password.

clajiness 5y ago
Thank you for the link!

cosmolev 5y ago

I am still on 1Password 6 because it is the last version with the self-hosted vault.

geerlingguy 5y ago
I'm on 1Password 7 and am syncing my local vault through Dropbox. I don't pay any subscription...
- yreg 5y ago
  How did you do that? Did you port license from an older 1Password, or is there some way to buy 1Password 7?
  - bleachedsleet 5y ago
    Not the parent poster, but this can be done from inside the app. They hid the link, but the purchase flow is still available from inside 1Password.
    - geerlingguy 5y ago
      Yeah this is what I did.
    - yreg 5y ago
      Thank you, I'll check it out.
- mlindner 5y ago
  Please let us know how you did this. I'm stuck on 6 because I didn't want to pay a subscription.
yreg 5y ago
Same here. It's a neat app, I don't feel like I'm missing something. The main bummer is no Safari extension, which (together with no RES) is preventing me from using Safari as my main browser. Looking back at the times ~10 years ago, it was a pretty good investment to buy software licenses before everything went SaaS.

encryptluks2 5y ago

There are so many good open source alternatives that already offer this they probably no longer have a choice. Which password software would you want to choose, the open source one offering superior privacy or the paid one that only adopts better security when they start losing a lot of customers.

MrStonedOne 5y ago

> To clarify, in 1Password 7 we had two types of vaults: vaults used with the 1Password.com service and what we called "local vaults" or "standalone vaults" which were synced however you decided to, typically Dropbox or iCloud. > Assuming we're talking about the same feature, then the answer is no, they are not implemented as the new releases do not have support for local/standalone vaults and 1Password 7 will be the last version to support them. The new apps rely on the server to perform a lot of the heavy lifting so we will not be adding support for local vaults as they existed in earlier versions. ... "We took away a feature that let people not pay us a subscription for no reason and are now maybe gonna think about re-adding it but making it more complex to setup so nobody uses it and we'll get more money." Can anybody tell me why HIBP still supports them?

Nullabillity 5y ago
Same reason that they presumably supported them in the first place: money?

post_break 5y ago

So like what bitwarden does? So far I've been happy using bitwarden after 1password boiled the frog with their pricing.

discobean 5y ago

too little too late

nmg 5y ago

Savvy - for me Bitwarden's implementation of self-hosting is the biggest gesture of mutual trust that makes it feel so solid

kenneth 5y ago

I've been self hosting 1Password for about a decade without any issues. There's always been a way around the subscription stuff. I honestly don't mind paying the subscription pricing, just didn't like the idea of storing my passwords on their service with everyone else's.

Terretta 5y ago
You don’t like the idea of storing opaque bits along with everyone else’s equally opaque bits? So long as the secret key to these bits is yours, not theirs, what’s the catch?
- nucleardog 5y ago
  For a whole class of potential (if unlikely) situations, it shifts from me potentially being caught up in a mass hack, response to an overly broad warrant, etc to needing be targeted specifically. Passphrase compromised? If they're hosting, you know exactly where to go to access my passwords. If I'm hosting, I can tell you that I use 1Password and my master password and I'm still _relatively_ safe in that you don't even know where to find a copy of my password database. Encryption broken (whether algorithm or implementation)? If they're hosting, they've now become an _extremely_ valuable target as they're holding a bunch of paid-for accounts, credit cards, banking details, personal identity documents, etc. Not necessarily super-valuable in a one-off situation, but if you could grab a million password databases at once... Which wouldn't include mine, because it's off on my own server. Legal abuse? An overly broad warrant could vacuum up every database in their possession. Presumably the government can't open the vaults, but if they _really_ cared how sure are you? Would you be comfortable not changing all of your passwords (but can't change your identity documents...) if the NSA asked for a copy of your database? If my data's never in their possession, then I'd need to be targeted specifically with a warrant. For something I'm using to store all of my accounts, banking details (both logins as well as account and routing numbers), personal identity documents, MFA backups, key backups, software licenses, and more... my question for you would be more "Why would I take any additional risk when I don't have to?" I'd rather not be within the same blast radius as all the other 1Password users. Edited to add: Also, outside of the "why don't I want my data sitting beside everyone else's", more generally with regards to a hosted option is where my data goes if I have any payment problems, and availability of my data being within my control (if my server goes down, I can fix it--if they have a massive week long outage I just need to twiddle my thumbs potentially without access to... anything).

notafraudster 5y ago

I used 1password for about ten years. Every interaction I had with the developers was pretty hostile. Even if they encouraged self-hosting and version-based upgrading instead of a SaaS, I'd still stick with a competitor. At this point I'm irrationally bothered by the fact that it's a 100+ staff company just to make a product that's no better than it was when they had 10 staff and is now more expensive.

dawnerd 5y ago
Just to add another data point, I’ve been with them since almost day one and every interaction I’ve had has been very nice. They even got my data out of a backup when something weird happened when switching from a business to family plan. (I might be a weird edge case since my account shows as both family and business a custom domain).
- paulryanrogers 5y ago
  If they can get your data out then do they have access to your keys?
  - gokhan 5y ago
    Most probably encrypted data out of a backup for you to use after unlocking.
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> At this point I'm irrationally bothered by the fact that it's a 100+ staff company just to make a product that's no better than it was when they had 10 staff and is now more expensive. Supporting more customers and larger scale is inherently more expensive, but I still don’t understand how the product feels like it peaked about 5 years ago and has been treading water ever since. I don’t mind paying $50 or even $100 for a good password manager that I could rely on for several years. However, it feels like these moves toward subscription software are aimed at extracting $300 or more from me for the same time period, all while failing to provide a decently updated experience. I do routinely pay $150/year or more for other software packages like JetBrains IDEs, but those are constantly updated. With 1Password it feels like the move to subscription was a step backwards in features with a huge step up in long term price. No thanks.

DavideNL 5y ago

I wonder whether they are considering this because people are leaving 1Password for Bitwarden, which has a self-hosted option… Personally i would never pay for a 1Password subscription. I did buy all the standalone versions/upgrades, since day1.

jeromegv 5y ago
There might be some anecdata on hacker news but 1Password user base has been constantly growing.

celeritascelery 5y ago

I always assumed that they didn’t have the keys to unlock my vault, so even if something was compromised it is all encrypted with no way for them to access it. What is the advantage of self hosting?

ceocoder 5y ago
Not having to rely at all on someone else’s infrastructure- including ssl certs. Not worrying about credit card expiring or any pivots in business.
miked85 5y ago
The key word here is assumed. I am not saying they have access, but considering the implications if someone else could access all of my passwords, I would rather not take the risk.
cdumler 5y ago
TLDR; Big reason is policing is going to get a lot more invasive; however, I have found the very positive reflection that my in-house services are far more reliable. I have the advantage that I am a programmer, so I can deal with a bit of reading install guides and arcane configuration. I was surprised to learn just how reliable things can be. Open Source tends to move forwards, so I don't have features taken from me. In recent memory, both 1Password and Fantastical have taken my features in the name of subscriptions. I installed ZigBee home automation with a Hubitat. It has never failed me. Internet and Wi-Fi can be down and things still work. The unreliable part is Google Nest (invalidates tokens every now and then) and Apple Siri (randomly can't do things at times). In short, I can automatically scan and OCR documents, have file services, movie and music, and more, and it all just works. /rant mode enabled It has become obvious to me that the law is quickly becoming snitch based. With so much information being hosted online, it's just too tempting a target to not use it for other purposes. Google and Facebook are just the leaders in where this is going. There is just no reason for law enforcement to not scan for dissonant behavior at some point, just as they roam the roads looking for violators. As more jobs become remote, the argument will be "the roads of the 21st century are on the Internet." Difference before is if you get pulled over on the road, you can log it. You know when and where it happened. You have evidence of the encounter. You can see what was used against you and who. The new system you requires you to try to prove your innocence. You won't know when or where you were targeted. You are not allowed to inspect the software or see the matching hash information. You must open your phone to prove the file is innocent, at which is is legal for the police to capture data. Finally, it is NOT against the law for law enforcement to lie to you [1]. This utterly stacks the deck against you. All of this could be avoided if at the time of the event you could record what happened and challenge it, because ultimately law enforcement is a money making scheme. Cops are the largest thieving group in America, so treat them like it[2]: a car alarm doesn't stop them, it's just means most thieves will choose an easier target. So, private services doesn't stop a cop, but following cloud events is a lot easier than trying to get into my house. My sincere hope is that the cloud keeps them busy enough to stay far away from me. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZlrf8CiM4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IZlrf8CiM4 [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-took-more-stuff-from-people-than-burglars-did-last-year/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/11/23/cops-...

lisper 5y ago

I've never understood why anyone who takes security seriously would even consider a non-self-hosted (and non-open-source) password manager, especially after the recent Apple shenanigans. If it's not open-source and self-hosted then your security is entirely dependent on the good will of your provider. If they decide to screw you, they can. And it's not just the good will of the people running your provider today that you have to bet on, it is the continued good will of whoever ends up running your provider tomorrow or after they get acquired. It seems like a bad bet to me in the long run.

YPPH 5y ago
Convenience. A self-hosted password manager really shouldn't be exposed to the internet. If you are making it accessible over the internet, it's a far greater security threat imo. You're just not going to be able to keep it up to the same security standards as a large production install, like what the Bitwarden folks have going. Needing to VPN or SSH tunnel into my home network each time I need a password is far too inconvenient. Not to mention the spared effort in not needing to regularly back up your vault or worrying about keeping the service available.
- lisper 5y ago
  If it's properly encrypted you should be able to publish it on github and still be more secure than entrusting it to a third party.
  - YPPH 5y ago
    Publishing your vault of passwords on a public GitHub repository seems like a pretty bad idea, no matter how well you trust the client-side encryption code. I'm no expert on the subject, but I suspect these password managers use a sophisticated mechanism of authentication (for accessing the vault) as well as encrypting of the actual contents of the vault. The effect of this means that Bob's encrypted vault cannot be downloaded by an attacker without the attacker first authenticating to the server.

epmaybe 5y ago

Am I doing something wrong by having my passwords stored in iCloud?

easton 5y ago
Not if you don’t use Windows or a non-Safari browser on macOS. If you’re all in on Apple it’s fine.

D-Nice 5y ago

Vaults, self-hosting, all these needless complications imo for what should be simple. Just give me a secure deterministic password from a website address + master pass combo. That's exactly what my project, https://app.srspass.com https://app.srspass.com aims to do. Even though I have a super redundant NAS setup, I'd really hate to depend on a vault and have it all disappear due to some disaster. With SrsPass, I just remember one password, have a recovery/backup phrase written somewhere that it gives me which adds 128-bit of entropy to each generated password and boom, that's my password manager. Stateless, deterministic, and by using argon2id, PHC winner, on the client side it is doing what most password backends should be, but often aren't doing, which is strong memory-hard password hashing.

kdmdndnsk 5y ago
I'm sorry, maybe I'm just dense, but how can the output of your generator be deterministic if you add entropy? Further, if it's deterministic, how is this different from just running your password through a hashing algorithm and then using the hash as your password? The only extra information an attacker has to figure out is what hashing algorithm you used and he can generate all of your passwords from your memorized one. Right? That or I don't understand what you are describing.
mormegil 5y ago
I think there should be (and probably already is) an FAQ page explaining why a "stateless password manager" is not a great idea for a common user. I guess the answers to this SE question might be a good start: https://security.stackexchange.com/q/214301/2530 https://security.stackexchange.com/q/214301/2530

iambateman 5y ago

I understand that 1Password is a business and it’s their prerogative to make money. In 2014 I switched to self-hosted password management with 1P and it changed my life. Today, my 1P vaults are a daily, indispensable part of computing. There are thousands of records and my overall security is dramatically higher. Fast forward a few years and I heard that they had introduced a subscription. Why? It’s not their fault: everyone does it. But is this really a subscription service? The applications on my computer and phone have worked smashingly well for years. Is there enough of an ongoing need for development as to require a subscription? I’d rather pay a periodic upgrade fee as maintenance is required. At the same time, independent and decentralized password management makes sense. I don’t want AmaGooSoft holding my passwords to everything. In any event, I will continue to use older versions of password management to save on the subscription.

tchalla 5y ago
Also, why should you lose access to features because you stopped subscribing? You paid for them and now you don't want to support future features. Why should you lose access to past ones?

_moof 5y ago

Too little, too late. I used 1Password for ten years, but I've switched to a different password manager and I'm happy with it.

pacomerh 5y ago
I use KeepassXC selfhosted, very happy with it
nahname 5y ago
What did you switch too?

frugalmail 5y ago

Was so happy when I moved from 1password to Bitwarden. Far more reasonable pricing and a better experience IMO.

aborsy 5y ago

Keepassxc on Dropbox works well for individuals. Do Bitwarden or 1password add to this? They seem to be for enterprise.

helloworld11 5y ago

Frankly, given all the major data leaks of recent years and months, and not to mention ransomware incidents against even large, supposedly well-secured organizations, I fail to see how anyone with a modicum of security awareness could recommend or use a centralized password manager platform of any kind for their own security. People mention "convenience" but i'd say fuck that. Convenience is also how many seem to justify the total sell-off of their digital and financial privacy.

rcarmo 5y ago

This would make me consider upgrading to 7/Pro. I’ve resisted to do so because I am fundamentally opposed to the way they are centralizing the product and selling it in a subscription model, but a private vault server I could share inside a small business (or family) would be something I would buy.

rStar 5y ago

1password needs to admit they screwed up by trying to force their customers into migrating to their cloud product. 1password needs to provide a first class service option to customers that want nothing to do with the 1password cloud.

kylehotchkiss 5y ago

While I didn’t love 1Password moving to the cloud because I liked the personal license, it did allow my company to switch from lastpass to 1Password, which was a sizable improvement for password management and allows us to use 1pass’ “2fa” that would at least protect against leaked passwords. HIBP support is cool. Secrets automation seems like an interesting vault alternative. So long as 1Password doesn’t get acquired and can keep hiring and paying strong cryptography experts, I’m happy with their direction. I’d ultimately prefer to host my own 1Password server at home if there was an option though, data ownership is an increasingly difficult thing to achieve.