7 ms·

We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside a border crossing. The world has a nasty trend of using crises to erode privacy and we co

We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside a border crossing. The world has a nasty trend of using crises to erode privacy and we collectively never recover - what was sold as temporary becomes permanent, endlessly extended and expanded. I’m not an antivaxer. The vaccine works and I believe it’s really safe. I’m vaccinated. Nearly anyone who is capable to go to a bar can easily go get vaccinated. If they don’t, I’m not interested in saving them from themselves, honestly. If the spread or variant breakthrough or some other aspect is so critical that we need to resort to novel privacy violations we should just shut down again instead.

tantalor 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope
- tracedddd 5y ago
  Pointing out a slippery slope doesn’t mean it isn’t worth considering the consequences. My position is indeed speculative, however it’s not without evidence. We very rarely regain rights or freedoms when they are taken so I think it’s valid to be concerned about the same thing happening here.
  - tantalor 5y ago
    > not without evidence Please give examples
    - tracedddd 5y ago
      Patriot Act.
      - saalweachter 5y ago
        Didn't the Patriot Act fail to get reauthorization on its last expiration? Granted, ~20 years is a pretty good run.
    - adventured 5y ago
      Letting the US Government, at the behest of the President, wage war nearly anytime it feels like it, without prior authorization of Congress. Slippery slope meet the forever war machine. Trade & tariff conflicts of the 1930s, which spiraled from a smaller economic conflict into a larger economic conflict and into the great depression. All because the government was given too much leash to run with. Letting the government (and Fed) bail out Wall Street repeatedly and institutionalize too big to fail as an economic policy. The US Government specializes in lubricating slopes and speeding down them.
    - timr 5y ago
      Six months ago, I was routinely told that my fears of vaccine passports were "conspiracy theory", and the same arguments about the slippery slope were invoked. At some point, you just have to look down and notice that the slope of the ground is negative, and everything is greasy.
      - reidjs 5y ago
        What’s bad about a vaccine passport? Do you think unvaccinated people should be allowed to travel internationally? Isn’t that really dangerous?
        timr 5y ago
        > What’s bad about a vaccine passport? Other people have covered that in many comments throughout this thread. I personally don't want to live in a world where I am asked to show my papers -- whatever those papers may be -- to participate in daily life. > Do you think unvaccinated people should be allowed to travel internationally? I think so, but it's certainly within the rights of any nation to choose the rules by which foreigners may enter their country. I care less about this than I do about having to show a "passport" to get food. > Isn’t that really dangerous? In a highly vaccinated population? No. That's the point of vaccines. Once the threat of (involuntary) serious and illness and death has been abrogated, SARS-CoV2 takes its place amongst the pantheon of other respiratory viruses that we have lived with for centuries.
        pmarreck 5y ago
        > I personally don't want to live in a world where I am asked to show my papers -- whatever those papers may be -- to participate in daily life. Has that participation ever involved travel to another country? Standard passports exist for very good reasons... otherwise, there wouldn't be 100% of nations who depend on them (are there even any nations that don't ask for one?)
        _ph_ 5y ago
        I also don't want to live in a world where I have to show my papers to participate in daily life. You know what I even want less? To live in a world where daily life is implicitly restricted because there is a constant danger for me and others to get severely sick. And most western countries are still far to far from being highly vaccinated. If they were, we wouldn't need to ask for their vaccination status. Yes, long term we either manage to actually erradicate SARS-Cov-2 or at least reduce it to the group of all the other dangerous viruses we can deal with. If the vaccination rate is high enough. Think measels. They didn't ever go away, but for many years, they were not a problem. They are back due to too many people who think they can skip the vaccinations. And if you ever tried to go onto international, especially intercontinental travel, many countries require proof of vaccination against a variety of diseases.
    - claytongulick 5y ago
      "Interpreting" the Interstate Commerce Clause to grant the Federal Government the power to regulate controlled substances? At this point, there is no power conceivable that the Federal government could not claim under the umbrella of "it might affect commerce somewhere". Most of the powers the Federal government has seized from the states have been rationalized under the ICC. Like making it illegal for a farmer to grow wheat on his own farm to feed his own animals. [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
      - guntars 5y ago
        That's a fun one: > The Court decided that Filburn's wheat-growing activities reduced the amount of wheat he would buy for animal feed on the open market, which is traded nationally, is thus interstate, and is therefore within the scope of the Commerce Clause. Although Filburn's relatively small amount of production of more wheat than he was allotted would not affect interstate commerce itself, the cumulative actions of thousands of other farmers like Filburn would become substantial. Therefore the Court decided that the federal government could regulate Filburn's production.
  - pmarreck 5y ago
    > We very rarely regain rights or freedoms when they are taken so I think it’s valid to be concerned about the same thing happening here. The doctors who gained, then lost, police powers to enforce quarantine during the "Spanish Flu" would like to have a word
  - pensatoio 5y ago
    I don't know, at some point, you have to look at every example of "slippery slope" over the past decades and realize that they've all been true. Emphasis on the last year and half, too.
- the_reformation 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy
lurquer 5y ago
> Nearly anyone who is capable to go to a bar can easily go get vaccinated. It’s too risky to themselves and others for unvaccinated people to drive to a bar to drink alcohol. Ha. Similar to swabbing the injection site for lethal injections to avoid infections.
jrockway 5y ago
What sort of things will health checks be used for in the future? Once Covid is gone, I don't think people will really care about your health information beyond entities that already care (health insurance providers denying coverage because of preexisting conditions, etc.) Certainly, The Mets won't care if you got your flu shot this year, and your local bar probably won't care that you didn't get your annual physical. If unrelated companies start caring about your health information after the pandemic, we should tell them to fuck off. Covid is a public health crisis -- the single most dangerous existential threat we as a society are currently facing -- and we have great tools to kill it dead. Letting it spread right now is just stupid, because we can end this plague once and for all. While we're working on it, I think it's totally fair to let someone check your vaccination status before you pack yourself into close quarters with them. It's not a matter of the government or the corporate overlords wanting your health information. As the person standing next to you in a crowded bar, I don't want you there if you're not vaccinated. If indoor businesses won't check customers, then I won't go to those indoor businesses, and if enough people think like me, those businesses are gone forever. Get vaccinated or stay home. You have a choice! (The real threat during crises like these is things like "we shouldn't have a free press, because nutjobs are spreading misinformation". That is an exceedingly dangerous line of thinking and we should push back against that hard, because the cure is worse than the disease. That's not the case with Covid -- the cure is much better than the disease.)
- asdff 5y ago
  We could honestly probably save billions in healthcare costs if we mandated a yearly physical and cancer screening. It would lift our economy catching these costly diseases and health issues while they are still easily and cheaply treatable.
  - ajsnigrutin 5y ago
    You'd also save billions, if you forced diets on people, forbid cigarettes, stopped selling sugar water with colorings, forbid driving, forbid skiing, hiking, climbing, and all other dangerous sports, keep social isolation every flu season, forbid casual sex (stds, unwanted children),... you'd just somehow have to stop suicides in the end.
xboxnolifes 5y ago
The first paragraph is how I feel. I'm vaccinated, but fat luck asking to see the card. I almost laughed when it was suggested to me at the vaccination site, by the administrating nurse, that I should get it laminated and put it on a lanyard.
tayo42 5y ago
Do you not show your ID at a bar? What privacy are you giving up here?
- wtfzse 5y ago
  It isn't about privacy dumbass. It is about freedom of movement and travel - something the 5th amendment enshrines perfectly well in English for those of us in the USA. "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." https://famguardian.org/Subjects/Freedom/Rights/Travel/RightToTravel.htm https://famguardian.org/Subjects/Freedom/Rights/Travel/Right... This entire "mandate", "law" whatever you want to call is 100% completely unconstitutional. Yes, it might take a year to travel through the courts but it is clearly unconstitutional.
- swader999 5y ago
  Do they scan it with a call to the cloud to verify it? That's the real threat here - continuous tracking, ability to turn it off or geo fence you to a certain area.
  - tayo42 5y ago
    I'm not sure the implentation but I have gotten my ID scanned to get into places and to buy lotto tickets Do you pay cash for everything? nnever use a credit card? Don't fly?
    - swader999 5y ago
      All of those kinds of transactions are voluntary with anonymous alternatives except for flying. This will become a scanable thing because if it doesn't it won't be a workable system. BTW I'm opposed to scanning for flying too. No fly lists are an example that came out of this practice. They'll do the same with this new system - no go lists for those with a low enough social credit score.
onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago
The supreme court ruled that it's legal to mandate vaccinations in 1905. Boston fined people for not getting a smallpox vaccine. This seems like a better option to me. Don't want to get vaccinated? Fine. Have a valid medical reason, pay a $2500 fee, or leave the city. >90% of people will just get vaccinated.
- chitowneats 5y ago
  The result of this would be that many black and latino residents in, for example, the Bronx, would be fined more than they can afford or literally expelled from NYC.
  - heartbreak 5y ago
    “ >90% of people will just get vaccinated.”
  - rtpg 5y ago
    I think there should be federally mandated sick leave for getting the vaccine cuz yeah if you're hourly and get this shot you are paying for it in lost revenue. So let's make the policy be "you get $500 to get the vaccine or get a doctor's note saying why not. If not you pay a fine". Yeah Bezos gets it (that's why you tax rich people more than poor people, to get the money back later). Now do you have a problem with this policy?
rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago
> We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside a border crossing. We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside of a global pandemic. People see this as a way to go back to the movies again without having to feel guilty about potentially killing someone's grandma. This is an alternative to going back into lockdown. I'm genuinely curious: what are your privacy concerns here? I like to think I'm a privacy-minded person, and I can't imagine how the benefits of this policy (keeping things open, preventing hospitalizations, saving lives) wouldn't possibly outweigh the cons (having to bring a vaccine card to a concert).

tantalor 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slippery_slope

tracedddd 5y ago
Pointing out a slippery slope doesn’t mean it isn’t worth considering the consequences. My position is indeed speculative, however it’s not without evidence. We very rarely regain rights or freedoms when they are taken so I think it’s valid to be concerned about the same thing happening here.
- tantalor 5y ago
  > not without evidence Please give examples
  - tracedddd 5y ago
    Patriot Act.
    - saalweachter 5y ago
      Didn't the Patriot Act fail to get reauthorization on its last expiration? Granted, ~20 years is a pretty good run.
  - adventured 5y ago
    Letting the US Government, at the behest of the President, wage war nearly anytime it feels like it, without prior authorization of Congress. Slippery slope meet the forever war machine. Trade & tariff conflicts of the 1930s, which spiraled from a smaller economic conflict into a larger economic conflict and into the great depression. All because the government was given too much leash to run with. Letting the government (and Fed) bail out Wall Street repeatedly and institutionalize too big to fail as an economic policy. The US Government specializes in lubricating slopes and speeding down them.
  - timr 5y ago
    Six months ago, I was routinely told that my fears of vaccine passports were "conspiracy theory", and the same arguments about the slippery slope were invoked. At some point, you just have to look down and notice that the slope of the ground is negative, and everything is greasy.
    - reidjs 5y ago
      What’s bad about a vaccine passport? Do you think unvaccinated people should be allowed to travel internationally? Isn’t that really dangerous?
      - timr 5y ago
        > What’s bad about a vaccine passport? Other people have covered that in many comments throughout this thread. I personally don't want to live in a world where I am asked to show my papers -- whatever those papers may be -- to participate in daily life. > Do you think unvaccinated people should be allowed to travel internationally? I think so, but it's certainly within the rights of any nation to choose the rules by which foreigners may enter their country. I care less about this than I do about having to show a "passport" to get food. > Isn’t that really dangerous? In a highly vaccinated population? No. That's the point of vaccines. Once the threat of (involuntary) serious and illness and death has been abrogated, SARS-CoV2 takes its place amongst the pantheon of other respiratory viruses that we have lived with for centuries.
        pmarreck 5y ago
        > I personally don't want to live in a world where I am asked to show my papers -- whatever those papers may be -- to participate in daily life. Has that participation ever involved travel to another country? Standard passports exist for very good reasons... otherwise, there wouldn't be 100% of nations who depend on them (are there even any nations that don't ask for one?)
        _ph_ 5y ago
        I also don't want to live in a world where I have to show my papers to participate in daily life. You know what I even want less? To live in a world where daily life is implicitly restricted because there is a constant danger for me and others to get severely sick. And most western countries are still far to far from being highly vaccinated. If they were, we wouldn't need to ask for their vaccination status. Yes, long term we either manage to actually erradicate SARS-Cov-2 or at least reduce it to the group of all the other dangerous viruses we can deal with. If the vaccination rate is high enough. Think measels. They didn't ever go away, but for many years, they were not a problem. They are back due to too many people who think they can skip the vaccinations. And if you ever tried to go onto international, especially intercontinental travel, many countries require proof of vaccination against a variety of diseases.
  - claytongulick 5y ago
    "Interpreting" the Interstate Commerce Clause to grant the Federal Government the power to regulate controlled substances? At this point, there is no power conceivable that the Federal government could not claim under the umbrella of "it might affect commerce somewhere". Most of the powers the Federal government has seized from the states have been rationalized under the ICC. Like making it illegal for a farmer to grow wheat on his own farm to feed his own animals. [1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn
    - guntars 5y ago
      That's a fun one: > The Court decided that Filburn's wheat-growing activities reduced the amount of wheat he would buy for animal feed on the open market, which is traded nationally, is thus interstate, and is therefore within the scope of the Commerce Clause. Although Filburn's relatively small amount of production of more wheat than he was allotted would not affect interstate commerce itself, the cumulative actions of thousands of other farmers like Filburn would become substantial. Therefore the Court decided that the federal government could regulate Filburn's production.
- pmarreck 5y ago
  > We very rarely regain rights or freedoms when they are taken so I think it’s valid to be concerned about the same thing happening here. The doctors who gained, then lost, police powers to enforce quarantine during the "Spanish Flu" would like to have a word
- pensatoio 5y ago
  I don't know, at some point, you have to look at every example of "slippery slope" over the past decades and realize that they've all been true. Emphasis on the last year and half, too.
the_reformation 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_fallacy

lurquer 5y ago

> Nearly anyone who is capable to go to a bar can easily go get vaccinated. It’s too risky to themselves and others for unvaccinated people to drive to a bar to drink alcohol. Ha. Similar to swabbing the injection site for lethal injections to avoid infections.

jrockway 5y ago

What sort of things will health checks be used for in the future? Once Covid is gone, I don't think people will really care about your health information beyond entities that already care (health insurance providers denying coverage because of preexisting conditions, etc.) Certainly, The Mets won't care if you got your flu shot this year, and your local bar probably won't care that you didn't get your annual physical. If unrelated companies start caring about your health information after the pandemic, we should tell them to fuck off. Covid is a public health crisis -- the single most dangerous existential threat we as a society are currently facing -- and we have great tools to kill it dead. Letting it spread right now is just stupid, because we can end this plague once and for all. While we're working on it, I think it's totally fair to let someone check your vaccination status before you pack yourself into close quarters with them. It's not a matter of the government or the corporate overlords wanting your health information. As the person standing next to you in a crowded bar, I don't want you there if you're not vaccinated. If indoor businesses won't check customers, then I won't go to those indoor businesses, and if enough people think like me, those businesses are gone forever. Get vaccinated or stay home. You have a choice! (The real threat during crises like these is things like "we shouldn't have a free press, because nutjobs are spreading misinformation". That is an exceedingly dangerous line of thinking and we should push back against that hard, because the cure is worse than the disease. That's not the case with Covid -- the cure is much better than the disease.)

asdff 5y ago
We could honestly probably save billions in healthcare costs if we mandated a yearly physical and cancer screening. It would lift our economy catching these costly diseases and health issues while they are still easily and cheaply treatable.
- ajsnigrutin 5y ago
  You'd also save billions, if you forced diets on people, forbid cigarettes, stopped selling sugar water with colorings, forbid driving, forbid skiing, hiking, climbing, and all other dangerous sports, keep social isolation every flu season, forbid casual sex (stds, unwanted children),... you'd just somehow have to stop suicides in the end.

xboxnolifes 5y ago

The first paragraph is how I feel. I'm vaccinated, but fat luck asking to see the card. I almost laughed when it was suggested to me at the vaccination site, by the administrating nurse, that I should get it laminated and put it on a lanyard.

tayo42 5y ago

Do you not show your ID at a bar? What privacy are you giving up here?

wtfzse 5y ago
It isn't about privacy dumbass. It is about freedom of movement and travel - something the 5th amendment enshrines perfectly well in English for those of us in the USA. "No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation." https://famguardian.org/Subjects/Freedom/Rights/Travel/RightToTravel.htm https://famguardian.org/Subjects/Freedom/Rights/Travel/Right... This entire "mandate", "law" whatever you want to call is 100% completely unconstitutional. Yes, it might take a year to travel through the courts but it is clearly unconstitutional.
swader999 5y ago
Do they scan it with a call to the cloud to verify it? That's the real threat here - continuous tracking, ability to turn it off or geo fence you to a certain area.
- tayo42 5y ago
  I'm not sure the implentation but I have gotten my ID scanned to get into places and to buy lotto tickets Do you pay cash for everything? nnever use a credit card? Don't fly?
  - swader999 5y ago
    All of those kinds of transactions are voluntary with anonymous alternatives except for flying. This will become a scanable thing because if it doesn't it won't be a workable system. BTW I'm opposed to scanning for flying too. No fly lists are an example that came out of this practice. They'll do the same with this new system - no go lists for those with a low enough social credit score.

onlyrealcuzzo 5y ago

The supreme court ruled that it's legal to mandate vaccinations in 1905. Boston fined people for not getting a smallpox vaccine. This seems like a better option to me. Don't want to get vaccinated? Fine. Have a valid medical reason, pay a $2500 fee, or leave the city. >90% of people will just get vaccinated.

chitowneats 5y ago
The result of this would be that many black and latino residents in, for example, the Bronx, would be fined more than they can afford or literally expelled from NYC.
- heartbreak 5y ago
  “ >90% of people will just get vaccinated.”
- rtpg 5y ago
  I think there should be federally mandated sick leave for getting the vaccine cuz yeah if you're hourly and get this shot you are paying for it in lost revenue. So let's make the policy be "you get $500 to get the vaccine or get a doctor's note saying why not. If not you pay a fine". Yeah Bezos gets it (that's why you tax rich people more than poor people, to get the money back later). Now do you have a problem with this policy?

rrrrrrrrrrrryan 5y ago

> We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside a border crossing. We shouldn’t applaud the normalization of health status checks outside of a global pandemic. People see this as a way to go back to the movies again without having to feel guilty about potentially killing someone's grandma. This is an alternative to going back into lockdown. I'm genuinely curious: what are your privacy concerns here? I like to think I'm a privacy-minded person, and I can't imagine how the benefits of this policy (keeping things open, preventing hospitalizations, saving lives) wouldn't possibly outweigh the cons (having to bring a vaccine card to a concert).