17 ms·

Going mouseless

176 points by FelipeCortez 5y ago

taxcoder 5y ago
Thanks for the keynav pointer. I switched from a mouse to a trackball due to shoulder pain, and it has really helped. Still, anytime I can use the keyboard instead of the mouse it makes me happy.
nikivi 5y ago
I do similar but on mac and using Safari. https://github.com/televator-apps/vimari https://github.com/televator-apps/vimari is great for this. So is Karabiner (https://wiki.nikitavoloboev.xyz/macos/macos-apps/karabiner https://wiki.nikitavoloboev.xyz/macos/macos-apps/karabiner) to map opening apps to two keys.
asymptosis 5y ago
I remember trying this a decade ago with uzbl and vimperator. It was okay for a while, but uzbl unfortunately failed to gain momentum, and vimperator was nixxed more and more for various reasons. The article in the link makes it sound like vimium is the last holdout of the resistance. It would be nice if it were possible to have other options again.
- alpaca128 5y ago
  On Firefox there's also Surfingkeys. I've been using that for the last year or so. Can't remember the exact reason I switched but it's been working well so far.
- square_usual 5y ago
  On Firefox, Tridactyl is actively developed and very feature rich. The only minor annoyance I have with it is that it sometimes overrides shortcuts other webapps have defined, which makes it difficult to work with eg. linear.app or RES for reddit. You can blacklist sites from Tridactyl, but then you have to choose between only native shortcuts, which can miss some crucial actions but are otherwise better than tridactyl, or only tridactyl.
  - bovine3dom 5y ago
    I think bindurl and unbindurl would solve most of your complaints: if you just want a few Tridactyl binds use blacklistadd then `:bindurl [URL] --mode=ignore ...`; if you want just a few webapp binds use `:unbindurl [URL] ...`. There's also Ctrl-v in normal mode that lets you send one key sequence to ignore mode - I use it on YouTube with `Ctrl-v f` to toggle fullscreen. Ctrl-o works similarly but for normal mode from ignore mode.
    - square_usual 5y ago
      Hey, awesome to get a reply from you! Thanks for all your work on tridactyl, it's made life a lot easier!
      - bovine3dom 5y ago
        You're welcome, glad you like it! I managed to get ctrl-o/v the wrong way round when I first posted it, but I've fixed it now : )
accurateappL 5y ago
I use tridactyl on firefox and it works very well.
arpa 5y ago
I went readless on mobile. Text doesn't wrap, can't zoom out to fit lines into view...
- auslegung 5y ago
  Same here, but I turned on reader mode on mobile Safari and was able to read it
- FelipeCortez 5y ago
  Sorry about that. I wrote the style sheet in a hurry and forgot to test it on mobile, although zooming out worked for me.
bartvk 5y ago
Firefox has a neat trick to only search in links. Press ' (single-quote) and at the bottom, a text input field appears with the hint "Quick find (links only)". Type two or three characters will focus the link in question, just press enter to navigate.
- dagw 5y ago
  Wow, TIL. Thanks!
- globular-toast 5y ago
  This used to pair nicely with "/" which opens up the normal quick search. Unfortunately this is broken on the "modern" web as many web pages "helpfully" override the "/" key to make it go to their search box which, of course, is not at all what that key should do. There doesn't seem to be any way to stop web pages stealing this key and I've slowly learnt to use the comparatively clumsy "Ctrl+F" instead as I'm too scared to try "/" now.
  - williamdclt 5y ago
    Special mentions to the github actions log output, which not only overrides ctrl+f with their own search, but have a completely broken search. Which means logs are unsearchable. Thanks a lot.
    - tux3 5y ago
      Does it open the browser search if you press ^F a second time?
    - wging 5y ago
      Unless they're doing something wonky like hiding content that is not in the viewport (thus reimplementing scrolling), you may be able to work around that by using ctrl-f from the URL bar, denying them the opportunity to hijack ctrl-f. So ctrl-l ctrl-f.
    - MiddleEndian 5y ago
speedgoose 5y ago
It's a lot easier with a touchscreen.
raihansaputra 5y ago
Is there a keynav like utility for MacOS? Maybe a Karabiner/Hammerspoon other scripts? EDIT: I've found some, should be "customizable" with Karabiner customization on top https://github.com/trishume/QuickMouse https://github.com/trishume/QuickMouse https://github.com/h2ero/XEasyMotion https://github.com/h2ero/XEasyMotion https://shortcatapp.com/ https://shortcatapp.com/ Some great discussion here: https://gist.github.com/lornajane/3892c39098cf70baa9c7a1874cddf233 https://gist.github.com/lornajane/3892c39098cf70baa9c7a1874c...
- nathan_phoenix 5y ago
  You might want to check out Vimac[1], provides system-wide Vimium tooltips. Not the same as keynav, but imo works even better. [1]: https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac
fleaaaa 5y ago
Vimium extension(I don't even use vim) and split keyboard browsing experience is such a god-send to me, maybe I should donate some to these dev..
zerop 5y ago
Same thing happened to me quite a while ago when my mouse didn’t work consistently and started exploring keyboard ways of doing all work... and it did improve my keyboard shortcut awareness and usages. I still use them... I feel that keystroke of older keyboards was better than modern laptops. The key press was longer and somehow I like it more than modern ones.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  Some laptops have mechanical switches nowadays, I haven't tried them but they couldn't possibly be worse than normal laptop keyboards.
salamandersauce 5y ago
Surprised there was no mention of using a tiling window manager like Xmonad, RatPoison etc. That can really cut down on mice usage.
- HKH2 5y ago
  Even just using shortcut keys to tile windows is better than using a mouse.
- majewsky 5y ago
  Before I switched to a tiling window manager, I had my global shortcuts in KDE set up with all the available quick-tiling actions. Win+S would maximize a window, Win+{W,A,D,X} would move and resize the window to cover the {upper,left,right,bottom} half to the screen, and Win+{Q,E,Z,C} would similarly move and resize the window to one of the screen's quadrants. The shortcuts seem arbitrary, but are deliberately chosen to arrange into a nice square on the keyboard. That setup worked nicely for me for several years, until I converted to a true tiling window manager (Sway).
matsemann 5y ago
Using a Rollermouse, I never have to leave home-row when moving the pointer, so not such a loss of time compared to a normal mouse. The mouse-bar is just a centimeter off the space bar, so I just move it around with my thumbs. Index+thumb if I need more precision. No more elbow pain as well.
- thom 5y ago
  This is what I liked about the old ThinkPad nipples. I would still buy a laptop with that setup and no trackpad, tbh.
  - jbay808 5y ago
    New ThinkPads still have these! They have trackpads too but you can disable them in the bios to avoid accidental clicks.
    - thom 5y ago
      Yeah I just genuinely want the option of no touchpad at all, the much loved X200 was the last mode that offered this.
      - jbay808 5y ago
        I know what you mean. They somehow irritate my skin in a way that doesn't make any sense for a smooth surface to do.
nathan_phoenix 5y ago
If you're using MacOS and are looking for system-wide Vimium, checkout out Vimac[1]. Works really well! [1]: https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac
- hultner 5y ago
  I tried it about a year back and it was missing to much back then to be usable day to day for me. Took a look again now and it does look like there’s a lot of improvements, will have to give it another go.
- spfzero 5y ago
  This looks cool, especially hint mode. Wondering what scroll mode adds though, compared to just using the existing Mac OS shortcuts (or Pg Up/Pg Dn)
dainiusse 5y ago
Hmm. This sounds like a modern day amish :) i guess some sort of tiling window manager could better suit it
trey-jones 5y ago
It's a good skill to have. I think sysadmins kind of acquire it naturally, with much work being done in the terminal. I'm fairly proficient on my own computer with my own hotkeys, though I'm sure I could take it further with some effort. I still use a mouse frequently in the browser, but for the bulk of my work my hands don't leave the keyboard. I'm not sure whether it's significantly faster than an "expert mouse user" but I also don't think it's slower. I haughtily think that my killing and yanking is more precise than it would be clicking, but who knows? I think it's kind of a parlor trick really, but it does impress the younger and less experienced team members to some degree.
jchw 5y ago
Whenever I don’t have a mouse, I notice. Immediately. Been staying in hotels recently. The wifi login for IHG hotels varies a bit, but often has either tabs or a checkbox that is not keyboard accessible because it is not part of the focus order. Obviously this sucks for people with disabilities, but it also sucks for people with Android TV devices (in my case, a Chromecast.) Now obviously, one of those things is more important than the other (although unfortunately, I bet I know which complaint would be more likely to lead to a change.) So yeah, I’ve always got a bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo for this reason. (It’s a bit pricey, but a K830 works well.) It’s a bit sad that websites and apps are so careless with accessibility, but unfortunately, for that reason, it’s hard to truly go mouseless. At least this page describes how to set up a virtual mouse, because yeah, you’re going to need it.
- kozd 5y ago
  If you want to ditch the physical keyboard/mouse, there are apps that let you use your phone as a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse.
  - jchw 5y ago
    The trouble is that having WiFi access is often a prerequisite for said apps. Some options also require rooting, which I have done, although it is fairly impractical. So for logging into a WiFi hotspot, it’s a tricky proposition.
anthk 5y ago
Doable with cwm (window manager with being everything manageable with a keyboard), st (pick any terminal here), tmux (better than spawning lots of terminals) and vimb (keybindings based web browser, but you can use the mouse if you want too) under BSD/Linux. It helps against RSI.
Aromasin 5y ago
I've used the ZSA Moonlander (https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/) as my main driver for the past 6 months, except I've replaced the right hand thumb pad with a custom mouse mod. I basically pulled the electronics from a Logitec trackball mouse and machined a casing for it to clip to the keyboard once the thumb buttons are removed. It's been wonderful. I'm reaching the stage where I'm just as dexterous now with my thumb as I was with my regular mouse, and my right hand isn't constantly searching for the home row when I return to type. I can't recommend it enough.
- fullyforged 5y ago
  This sounds really interesting! Do you have photos/a link to share?
- mariusor 5y ago
  The guys at Ultimate Hacking Keyboard have a trackball module[1] for their split keyboard that uses the same idea. [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball
- sithadmin 5y ago
  As a fellow Moonlander user, I'd love to see a write-up of what you did.
- wjdp 5y ago
  Unsure if I could live without the right thumb cluster but would be really interested in a write-up/photos of this project.
cle 5y ago
Take care of your hands. I went on a crusade to go mouseless a few years ago, and eventually it resulted in RSI from typing so much. Focus on your posture, take breaks, stretch your hands and fingers, get an ergonomic keyboard, etc. An under-appreciated benefit of using a mouse (as a programmer) is that it "switches things up" on your hands so that you aren't doing the same repetitive motions all day long. You can be marginally faster with a mouseless workflow, but you're definitely not very productive when you can't type for months due to RSI.
- cainxinth 5y ago
  My computer-related RSI prevention tips: Get separate mouse and keyboard wrist rests. Use a vertical mouse instead of a traditional one. Use more than one type of mousing device and switch up from time to time. Graphic tablets with digital pens take some getting used to but are excellent. Look up RSI forearm stretches and take breaks to stretch your arms and hands for a few moments at least every few hours. I'm also a big fan of gyro ball exercisers. Get an ergonomic chair with movable arm rests that can keep your arms at around the same height as the desk your working at.
  - treeman79 5y ago
    Started having severe wrist pain 20 year ago. I got a bean bag wrist pad. No pain ever so long as I use bran bag ones. Comes back quick without.
  - jxramos 5y ago
    I second the alternation idea, I have something like 4 input devices I alternate between to "spread the load" across different limbs and body parts. People experiment with different keyboard layouts too that basically remap the characters to different keys on the keyboard. * roller mouse * left hand vertical mouse * right hand vertical mouse * trackpad * foot pedal
  - BeFlatXIII 5y ago
    What are some vertical mouse recommendations? I currently have an ancient Anker vertical mouse and am curious if one of the $100+ mice is worth the upgrade.
amelius 5y ago
I'm using a simple Wacom tablet. However, I still switch to the mouse for some tasks (Inkscape, KiCAD), because of the scrollwheel (indispensable for quick zooming). I wish there was a hybrid solution (e.g. tablet with separate wheel for zooming) which is easy to set up in Linux.
nodejs_rulez_1 5y ago
Now go fingerless on your smartphone. Oh, we make an exception there do we?
- sillyquiet 5y ago
  I think the snark is overboard, but I get what you are saying - but I will defend the article in that it's a neat experiment and it sort of highlights gaps in accessibility, like others in the thread have noted. However, my first computer was a Commodore 64 and I currently have a Commodore 64 emulator I love playing around with - and doing everything in keyboard commands is a pita for things like word processors and spreadsheets even when you have the shortcuts in muscle memory. There's a reason the mouse was so successful.
- toast0 5y ago
  Physical keyboards on smart phones were glorious. Not all the apps would let you go through fields using only the keyboard (and some keyboards didn't have enough navigation keys, anyway), but when it worked well, it worked well. Sadly, it cost money to include a keyboard, so the race to the bottom means you can't find them anymore. Just like real back buttons.
  - brokenmachine 5y ago
    Personally, I don't want a physical keyboard on my phone. I am irritated that the menu button was taken away on Android, that was good UI. Now every app does menu differently which is a massive step backwards for discoverability and consistency.
- qu4z-2 5y ago
  I wish I could, frankly, but smartphone UIs are just not designed for it sadly. Heck, input boxes don't even autofocus on Android (presumably because a virtual keyboard pops up over half the screen for most people once they focus an input) so I need to jab the login field before I can start typing. Whether or not Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V actually copy paste within any given application is about 50/50 (and not always the same between copy and paste!). Since the big new version of Mobile Firefox it no longer scrolls when you send it scroll events (presumably there's a child frame or something). Then again, Android is just generally not ready for production in a lot of ways other than keyboard support (the latter of which I sort of forgive them for -- phone keyboards are unfortunately quite rare these days). So yes, we make an exception, but it's due to necessity not desirability.
dolni 5y ago
If you're interested in a mouseless browser experience, another great option is qutebrowser: https://qutebrowser.org/ https://qutebrowser.org/
whall6 5y ago
Investment bankers are judged for using the mouse when using excel. It’s a rite of passage to be completely mouseless
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  Intern: Uses the mouse Junior: TrackPoint Senior: Keyboard Only Partner: Has someone else use the computer
- agumonkey 5y ago
  I remember some finance dude handling excel like a korean gamer playing starcraft, it was as exciting as humbling.
  - f00zz 5y ago
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xubbVvKbUfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xubbVvKbUfY
    - agumonkey 5y ago
      wrong link
enricozb 5y ago
If you're on linux, consider trying a tiling wm like i3 [0] or sway (wayland) [1]. New windows automatically place themselves in a nice place and don't overlap. It's extremely (if not entirely) keyboard driven and pretty configurable. [0]: https://i3wm.org/ https://i3wm.org/ [1]: https://swaywm.org/ https://swaywm.org/
- michaelcampbell 5y ago
  Last time I checked there was no equivalent to these, or any sort of actual tiling manager in MacOS; is this still the case? (For anyone to answer, if you know.)
  - bpanon 5y ago
    Amethyst is pretty good
    - samhh 5y ago
      I think that was replaced by Rectangle.
      - timtrav 5y ago
        Rectangle and Amethyst are both great, but only Amethyst will auto-tile your windows as you open them, like i3. Rectangle just exposes keybindings to resize the selected window.
  - ggm 5y ago
    https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai
  - justindirose 5y ago
    I use Yabai and it works very well. Similar to i3 in how it tiles, and quite customizable.
- RMPR 5y ago
Koshkin 5y ago
I use text-mode links whenever I can, works great (even on Windows [0]). [0] http://links.twibright.com/download/binaries/win32/ http://links.twibright.com/download/binaries/win32/
agumonkey 5y ago
I'm at a courthouse, their software is web based and it's so horrendously inefficient. They tried to make a few keybindings but it's mostly mouse driven. Not even Enter to submit the main form. Gah. Lead dev please remember how fast a keyboard is and how important it is to go swift on simple jobs duties. Ergonomy and efficiency.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  Could you use greasemonkey or something to add the Enter to submit? Also there's vimium which might help. If you do it all the time, it's worth fixing it.
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    they use IE, there's chrome but it's locked (no devtools) I don't think they allowed for extensions (security risks) but I could check. right now I'm investigating automation through powershell (ie com object yields the DOM and js runtim)
toiletaccount 5y ago
I've been doing this for the past 15 years. I use bash, tmux, (n)vim and git. It runs in whatever WM and on any OS I'll encounter. If your environment is a few simple tools, it's basically future proof and very portable. I like to keep config files fairly minimal as well so I don't become dependant on custom keybinds or functionality. Touch screens on laptops have really made things nice for mouseless browser use. (eg, when you can't keyboard select a field or button)
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  I can never imagine wanting to use a touch screen rather than a mouse which is much closer and more ergonomic, and has multiple buttons.
  - toiletaccount 5y ago
    I mapped a button to disable mouse input since the pad is right under my wrists when I type. For selecting one or two radio buttons or text fields, it's quicker to use the screen.
- RMPR 5y ago
  > Touch screens on laptops have really made things nice for mouseless browser use. (eg, when you can't keyboard select a field or button) The trackpoint makes it even better since your hands do not move from the keyboard in the first place
smoldesu 5y ago
For me, the key to "mouseless" is going to be the Tex Shinobi[0]. I haven't quite worked up the confidence to buy one yet (partially because current mechanical keyboard still works frustratingly well), but I look forwards to the day I could get something like this for TrackPoint synergy across all my typing surfaces. [0] https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi
ndand 5y ago
My attempt to make a practical keyboard-driven cursor app for Windows: https://github.com/ndandoulakis/SlickCursor https://github.com/ndandoulakis/SlickCursor
alkonaut 5y ago
A mouse or trackpad is a 2D input device. Unless you have a 2D input problem (dragging nodes in a graph, drawing a free form curve, selecting a point on a map…) then it was never the right tool to begin with. Navigating discrete UI elements or making simple UI actions of the kind that can be mapped to keyboard input - that’s easily doable with a keyboard. Occasionally it’s just a tad harder with keyboard than with mouse (web pages are notoriously useless with keyboard) but it’s possible. I wouldn’t last a day without going crazy without a mouse though. People who say they have gone mouseless also seem to argue they have zero 2D input and basically use text and ignore all other workloads. That’s not exactly solving the problem (not that I think it can be solved any better than just using a mouse!)
- CharlesW 5y ago
  > Unless you have a 2D input problem… Are not most GUIs are a 2D input mechanism?
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    Sort of (depends on terminology): A form is a set of controls laid out in 2D. But they are ordered and discrete so you can just ignore their positioning in x,y and instead navigate in their order instead (e.g tabbing through controls) making it a 1D input! By “2D input” in this context I mean input where there isn’t also such a navigation option and you must input one or more coordinates and there is no way to enter the coordinates as numbers. For example the input surface (image) in a drawing program like Microsoft paint.
    - auggierose 5y ago
      Random access vs. sequential access. Guess which one is more efficient?
      - CharlesW 5y ago
        I think you're equating "random" with keyboard and "sequential" with mouse, but I also think of keyboard as "serial" and keyboard + mouse as "parallel". I know my conclusion from your comment is supposed to be "keyboard is faster", but I'm not sure that's true. https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html
CharlesW 5y ago
For anyone considering doing this for speed reasons: We’ve done a cool $50 million of R&D on the Apple Human Interface. We discovered, among other things, two pertinent facts: • Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing. • The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding. This contradiction between user-experience and reality apparently forms the basis for many user/developers’ belief that the keyboard is faster. https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html
- xyzzy123 5y ago
  I wonder if this is due to the mouse requiring a sort of constant attentional feedback loop as you look at the screen and guide it where to go. Even if it's subconscious and technically faster, or even an illusion - I feel like mouse is consuming more cognitive resources. The feedback loop with keyboard can feel quite different, in flow it feels like you issue commands and look for immediate response. Also, when doing a repetitive task you quickly pick up key rhythms and patterns without needing prodigous memory to recall every possible "shortcut". What I am not sure the user interface testing covered is making users perform the same task 50 times per day. I don't think that using keyboard to control mouse has the same advantages as a keyboard-native interface.
  - strogonoff 5y ago
    The essence of the difference between keyboard and mouse interfaces is simply that the mouse introduces that extra mechanical layer between user’s intent and internal APIs, but offers the advantage of discoverability. That advantage and disadvantage tradeoff heavily depends on the nature of core functionality, how it’s mapped to the UI by the developer/designer, and user’s overall experience and familiarity with software.
- zck 5y ago
  This article also says: > It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function key to press. Deciding among abstract symbols is a high-level cognitive function. Not only is this decision not boring, the user actually experiences amnesia! Real amnesia! The time-slice spent making the decision simply ceases to exist. That's not my experience at all. Once you learn a keyboard shortcut, it doesn't take two seconds to recall it. Were his tests on expert users, or on beginners?
user3939382 5y ago
Keyboard is faster when instructing the computer for actions that you execute all the time. For situations where it’s practical to learn a keyboard input, it’s great. Where this interface paradigm breaks down are in contexts where the input is novel. Keyboard shortcuts and commands have a discoverability problem that has not been commonly solved in way that makes them faster than the mouse for new/rare users.
- tkainrad 5y ago
  > Keyboard shortcuts and commands have a discoverability problem that has not been commonly solved [...] You might want to have a look at KeyCombiner Desktop[1], an application that can show the shortcuts for the current app without leaving it. On macOS, it even shows shortcuts for the current browser tab. This solved the problem for me. Disclaimer: I made KeyCombiner [1] https://keycombiner.com/desktop/ https://keycombiner.com/desktop/
dotBen 5y ago
oh boy. I'm happy to send the OP a mouse from Amazon if they DM me their address
alpb 5y ago
For macOS, if you like Vimium, you'll like Vimac https://vimacapp.com/ https://vimacapp.com/ as well. It supersedes vimium but vimium is still better while working in the browser context. I'm also actively trying to go mouseless and Vimium+Vimac and setting custom keybindings to move/click my mouse on my ZSA Moonlander keyboard are currently helping me excellently. In many cases, moving your hand to the mouse, finding the cursor, moving it and clicking it is a lot slower than a keystroke combo like F-SD.
- asjldkfin 5y ago
  I have the exact same setup as you, moonlander + vimium + vimac. Out of curiousity, how are you binding Vimac? I'm binding it to where the right-shift key should be, and it's worked well, but always curious about alternative setups.
  - alpb 5y ago
    Ctrl Shift F for me and my Moonlander keyboard has a dedicated key for it, so the combo really doesn’t matter.
    - asjldkfin 5y ago
      which dedicated key?
a-b 5y ago
OS X users could try https://github.com/pqrs-org/KE-complex_modifications/blob/master/src/json/mouse_keys_mode_v4.json.rb https://github.com/pqrs-org/KE-complex_modifications/blob/ma...
- a-b 5y ago
  Nicer UI https://ke-complex-modifications.pqrs.org/?q=Mouse%20Keys%20Mode%20v4 https://ke-complex-modifications.pqrs.org/?q=Mouse%20Keys%20...
swader999 5y ago
What I want is a very small thumb trackball mouse that I can stick right in the middle of my truly ergonomic cleave keyboard.
- darnir 5y ago
  The Ultimate Hackers Keyboard has exactly that as a module you can attach to the keyboard.
  - swader999 5y ago
    It does it does! Very tempted.
- dredmorbius 5y ago
  That's quite close to what the IBM/Lenovo Trackpoint offers. No, it's not a trackball (it operates by pressure rather than rolling), but the navigation is quite precise, and leaves both hands on the keyboard and home-row keys. I've reached the point I'd like that for a desktop keyboard as well as laptop.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    > I'd like [the IBM/Lenovo Trackpoint] for a desktop keyboard as well as laptop. I think such things are commercially available. At least I'm fairly sure I saw them advertised on the Internet, not many years ago.
- the_gipsy 5y ago
  Not sure what cleave keyboard is, but you can stick a tint pimoroni trackball on any qmk keyboard microcontroller.
Stratoscope 5y ago
The article notes that you can use MouseKeys on Windows. MouseKeys is great, but only works if your keyboard has a numeric keypad. Since I've used ThinkPads for many years, I wrote a program some time ago I called JKLmouse. It gives similar functionality to MouseKeys, but works on ThinkPad and other laptop keyboards that don't have a numeric pad. It does help to have actual mouse buttons like on a ThinkPad. If you have laptop where the only way to do a mouse click is by pressing on the touchpad it won't work so well, because just the act of pressing the touchpad is likely to move the mouse pointer slightly. JKLmouse and the TrackPoint work together nicely. You can use the TrackPoint for larger mouse motions and then use the keyboard for precise positioning, all seamlessly. There is an installer, but for programmers I suggest instead installing AutoHotkey separately, and then download and configure JKLmouse.ahk to run at startup. If I do say so myself, I think it's a good example of some well-written AutoHotkey code. Maybe it will give you some ideas of other things you can do with AutoHotkey. https://www.jklmouse.com/ https://www.jklmouse.com/
jemurray 5y ago
I’ve used vi for 25 years now. Every shortcut and key combination is burned into unconscious memory. This holds true for all other applications used on a regular basis.
the_af 5y ago
I think keyboard-only being faster is a red herring, much like all the frequent arguing about learning to touch type to be "faster". I don't doubt many hackers and programmers truly enjoy doing everything from the keyboard, and that they can do it really fast too. However, I simply don't buy this is an ideal we should strive for in general. The mouse has an awesome UX property: it has zero friction for discoverability. It's always there, I know I can point and click and interact with something, I know I can drag stuff and I know I can group and select. Some UIs break this expectation, sure, but more often than not it will work. I don't have to memorize shortcuts or develop "muscle memory" and can instead devote my brain power to the actual task I want to solve. If I stay a long time away from a certain editor or tool, I don't have to worry about forgetting its shortcuts -- the mouse is always there, reliable as always. I'm an experienced programmer and a power user in many cases, and I do remember my share of shortcuts. But give me a mouse, anytime -- maybe I spent years away from your app, but I'll know how to use it, and fast. And those shortcuts be damned.
- urthor 5y ago
  Exactly. it mirrors the command line experience. Command line is faster/move convenient once you've learnt how, but finding out how to use it involves reading a manual basically. Each individual task involves a search for a command line command that executes it. Whilst the learning process for GUI is intuitive because it depends on a chain of tasks that are presented to the user as a visual dashboard. Two entirely distinct learning processes.
- senorsmile 5y ago
  I've been using awesome wm with a slightly customized settings. This plus vimium gets me to >99% keyboard only. When I have to use a Mac, my slow down is so noticeable.
michaelkaufman 5y ago
I program with a Magic Trackpad 2. There's not too much I can't do with gestures vs a keyboard. It's much faster than using two hands. I also set it up for 3-finger drag and that's the killer app within the app. With that, moving windows around is dramatically faster than a mouse. I can select text with 3-finger drag and then two-finger tap for the context menu to see: definitions, copy/paste, delete etc..). Navigating my laptop is more enjoyable when I can use all five fingers for different things. Apple should take this feature out of the Accessibility menus and put it where it belongs with the trackpad prefs.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Can't your window manager let you move windows using a key + mouse? Much faster than a mouse imo, and I used to use a Magic Trackpad also.
noxer 5y ago
Well Trackpoints are a thing still and way better than moving the mouse with the keys. Yes you can get desktop keyboard with trackpoints too. For longer mouse task I switch to a real mouse anyway.
blendergeek 5y ago
@dang, should this not have (1989) in the title? Or am I misunderstanding exactly when we put a year in the title?
jodrellblank 5y ago
> "With the Vimium extension installed, pressing f will make every visible link on the page get a one-to-three letter shortcut." This is a UX which happens quite often, but doesn't seem to get discussed much. I want to say it's more of a hybrid between keyboard and mouse even though it's all keyboard driven. I mean popping up numbers temporarily over things you might act on, then they vanish and might not be the same number on the same thing next time. e.g. a meta key in a web browser which overlays the tabs with numbers, you press a number to switch to the tab, then the numbers vanish. The point would be that you don't have to read through them to work out which one you want, you don't have to manually count "how many things from the left" or "what's a unique substring to search for", you are already looking at the one you want so the number which appears on it is pseudo-eyeball-tracking, look at the thing you want, press the meta key, type the number which appears, ignore the other numbers. Like line numbers and Vim "49G" to jump to line 49, Win+Digit to run taskbar items, Windows menu underlined accelerators.
ericwooley 5y ago
A little off topic, but I got a UHK with the trackpoint module. It's been amazing. UHK also has a mouse layer if you don't want the module. Not having to move your fingers off the keyboard is what really saves me time, and has completely cured my tennis elbow. Can't recommend it enough
tkainrad 5y ago
Vimium was one of the first tools I learned shortcuts for with KeyCombiner[1]. I still have to use KeyCombiner Desktop's instant lookup[2] feature from time to time to look up its more unusual bindings. A somewhat related blog post: Learning all VSCode shortcuts evolved my developing habits [3] [1] https://keycombiner.com/ https://keycombiner.com/ [2] A feature to look up shortcuts without leaving your current app. Can show shortcuts of the current app, current browser tab (macOS only), and shortcuts that you manually curated in collections. [3] https://tkainrad.dev/posts/learning-all-vscode-shortcuts-evolved-my-developing-habits/ https://tkainrad.dev/posts/learning-all-vscode-shortcuts-evo...
orhanerday 5y ago
it's looking amazing.

176 points by FelipeCortez 5y ago

Thanks for the keynav pointer. I switched from a mouse to a trackball due to shoulder pain, and it has really helped. Still, anytime I can use the keyboard instead of the mouse it makes me happy.

nikivi 5y ago

I do similar but on mac and using Safari. https://github.com/televator-apps/vimari https://github.com/televator-apps/vimari is great for this. So is Karabiner (https://wiki.nikitavoloboev.xyz/macos/macos-apps/karabiner https://wiki.nikitavoloboev.xyz/macos/macos-apps/karabiner) to map opening apps to two keys.

asymptosis 5y ago

I remember trying this a decade ago with uzbl and vimperator. It was okay for a while, but uzbl unfortunately failed to gain momentum, and vimperator was nixxed more and more for various reasons. The article in the link makes it sound like vimium is the last holdout of the resistance. It would be nice if it were possible to have other options again.

alpaca128 5y ago
On Firefox there's also Surfingkeys. I've been using that for the last year or so. Can't remember the exact reason I switched but it's been working well so far.
square_usual 5y ago
On Firefox, Tridactyl is actively developed and very feature rich. The only minor annoyance I have with it is that it sometimes overrides shortcuts other webapps have defined, which makes it difficult to work with eg. linear.app or RES for reddit. You can blacklist sites from Tridactyl, but then you have to choose between only native shortcuts, which can miss some crucial actions but are otherwise better than tridactyl, or only tridactyl.
- bovine3dom 5y ago
  I think bindurl and unbindurl would solve most of your complaints: if you just want a few Tridactyl binds use blacklistadd then `:bindurl [URL] --mode=ignore ...`; if you want just a few webapp binds use `:unbindurl [URL] ...`. There's also Ctrl-v in normal mode that lets you send one key sequence to ignore mode - I use it on YouTube with `Ctrl-v f` to toggle fullscreen. Ctrl-o works similarly but for normal mode from ignore mode.
  - square_usual 5y ago
    Hey, awesome to get a reply from you! Thanks for all your work on tridactyl, it's made life a lot easier!
    - bovine3dom 5y ago
      You're welcome, glad you like it! I managed to get ctrl-o/v the wrong way round when I first posted it, but I've fixed it now : )

accurateappL 5y ago

I use tridactyl on firefox and it works very well.

arpa 5y ago

I went readless on mobile. Text doesn't wrap, can't zoom out to fit lines into view...

auslegung 5y ago
Same here, but I turned on reader mode on mobile Safari and was able to read it
FelipeCortez 5y ago
Sorry about that. I wrote the style sheet in a hurry and forgot to test it on mobile, although zooming out worked for me.

bartvk 5y ago

Firefox has a neat trick to only search in links. Press ' (single-quote) and at the bottom, a text input field appears with the hint "Quick find (links only)". Type two or three characters will focus the link in question, just press enter to navigate.

dagw 5y ago
Wow, TIL. Thanks!
globular-toast 5y ago
This used to pair nicely with "/" which opens up the normal quick search. Unfortunately this is broken on the "modern" web as many web pages "helpfully" override the "/" key to make it go to their search box which, of course, is not at all what that key should do. There doesn't seem to be any way to stop web pages stealing this key and I've slowly learnt to use the comparatively clumsy "Ctrl+F" instead as I'm too scared to try "/" now.
- williamdclt 5y ago
  Special mentions to the github actions log output, which not only overrides ctrl+f with their own search, but have a completely broken search. Which means logs are unsearchable. Thanks a lot.
  - tux3 5y ago
    Does it open the browser search if you press ^F a second time?
  - wging 5y ago
    Unless they're doing something wonky like hiding content that is not in the viewport (thus reimplementing scrolling), you may be able to work around that by using ctrl-f from the URL bar, denying them the opportunity to hijack ctrl-f. So ctrl-l ctrl-f.
  - MiddleEndian 5y ago

speedgoose 5y ago

It's a lot easier with a touchscreen.

raihansaputra 5y ago

Is there a keynav like utility for MacOS? Maybe a Karabiner/Hammerspoon other scripts? EDIT: I've found some, should be "customizable" with Karabiner customization on top https://github.com/trishume/QuickMouse https://github.com/trishume/QuickMouse https://github.com/h2ero/XEasyMotion https://github.com/h2ero/XEasyMotion https://shortcatapp.com/ https://shortcatapp.com/ Some great discussion here: https://gist.github.com/lornajane/3892c39098cf70baa9c7a1874cddf233 https://gist.github.com/lornajane/3892c39098cf70baa9c7a1874c...

nathan_phoenix 5y ago
You might want to check out Vimac[1], provides system-wide Vimium tooltips. Not the same as keynav, but imo works even better. [1]: https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac

fleaaaa 5y ago

Vimium extension(I don't even use vim) and split keyboard browsing experience is such a god-send to me, maybe I should donate some to these dev..

zerop 5y ago

Same thing happened to me quite a while ago when my mouse didn’t work consistently and started exploring keyboard ways of doing all work... and it did improve my keyboard shortcut awareness and usages. I still use them... I feel that keystroke of older keyboards was better than modern laptops. The key press was longer and somehow I like it more than modern ones.

brokenmachine 5y ago
Some laptops have mechanical switches nowadays, I haven't tried them but they couldn't possibly be worse than normal laptop keyboards.

salamandersauce 5y ago

Surprised there was no mention of using a tiling window manager like Xmonad, RatPoison etc. That can really cut down on mice usage.

HKH2 5y ago
Even just using shortcut keys to tile windows is better than using a mouse.
majewsky 5y ago
Before I switched to a tiling window manager, I had my global shortcuts in KDE set up with all the available quick-tiling actions. Win+S would maximize a window, Win+{W,A,D,X} would move and resize the window to cover the {upper,left,right,bottom} half to the screen, and Win+{Q,E,Z,C} would similarly move and resize the window to one of the screen's quadrants. The shortcuts seem arbitrary, but are deliberately chosen to arrange into a nice square on the keyboard. That setup worked nicely for me for several years, until I converted to a true tiling window manager (Sway).

matsemann 5y ago

Using a Rollermouse, I never have to leave home-row when moving the pointer, so not such a loss of time compared to a normal mouse. The mouse-bar is just a centimeter off the space bar, so I just move it around with my thumbs. Index+thumb if I need more precision. No more elbow pain as well.

thom 5y ago
This is what I liked about the old ThinkPad nipples. I would still buy a laptop with that setup and no trackpad, tbh.
- jbay808 5y ago
  New ThinkPads still have these! They have trackpads too but you can disable them in the bios to avoid accidental clicks.
  - thom 5y ago
    Yeah I just genuinely want the option of no touchpad at all, the much loved X200 was the last mode that offered this.
    - jbay808 5y ago
      I know what you mean. They somehow irritate my skin in a way that doesn't make any sense for a smooth surface to do.

nathan_phoenix 5y ago

If you're using MacOS and are looking for system-wide Vimium, checkout out Vimac[1]. Works really well! [1]: https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac https://github.com/dexterleng/vimac

hultner 5y ago
I tried it about a year back and it was missing to much back then to be usable day to day for me. Took a look again now and it does look like there’s a lot of improvements, will have to give it another go.
spfzero 5y ago
This looks cool, especially hint mode. Wondering what scroll mode adds though, compared to just using the existing Mac OS shortcuts (or Pg Up/Pg Dn)

dainiusse 5y ago

Hmm. This sounds like a modern day amish :) i guess some sort of tiling window manager could better suit it

trey-jones 5y ago

It's a good skill to have. I think sysadmins kind of acquire it naturally, with much work being done in the terminal. I'm fairly proficient on my own computer with my own hotkeys, though I'm sure I could take it further with some effort. I still use a mouse frequently in the browser, but for the bulk of my work my hands don't leave the keyboard. I'm not sure whether it's significantly faster than an "expert mouse user" but I also don't think it's slower. I haughtily think that my killing and yanking is more precise than it would be clicking, but who knows? I think it's kind of a parlor trick really, but it does impress the younger and less experienced team members to some degree.

jchw 5y ago

Whenever I don’t have a mouse, I notice. Immediately. Been staying in hotels recently. The wifi login for IHG hotels varies a bit, but often has either tabs or a checkbox that is not keyboard accessible because it is not part of the focus order. Obviously this sucks for people with disabilities, but it also sucks for people with Android TV devices (in my case, a Chromecast.) Now obviously, one of those things is more important than the other (although unfortunately, I bet I know which complaint would be more likely to lead to a change.) So yeah, I’ve always got a bluetooth keyboard/mouse combo for this reason. (It’s a bit pricey, but a K830 works well.) It’s a bit sad that websites and apps are so careless with accessibility, but unfortunately, for that reason, it’s hard to truly go mouseless. At least this page describes how to set up a virtual mouse, because yeah, you’re going to need it.

kozd 5y ago
If you want to ditch the physical keyboard/mouse, there are apps that let you use your phone as a Bluetooth keyboard/mouse.
- jchw 5y ago
  The trouble is that having WiFi access is often a prerequisite for said apps. Some options also require rooting, which I have done, although it is fairly impractical. So for logging into a WiFi hotspot, it’s a tricky proposition.

anthk 5y ago

Doable with cwm (window manager with being everything manageable with a keyboard), st (pick any terminal here), tmux (better than spawning lots of terminals) and vimb (keybindings based web browser, but you can use the mouse if you want too) under BSD/Linux. It helps against RSI.

Aromasin 5y ago

I've used the ZSA Moonlander (https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/ https://www.zsa.io/moonlander/) as my main driver for the past 6 months, except I've replaced the right hand thumb pad with a custom mouse mod. I basically pulled the electronics from a Logitec trackball mouse and machined a casing for it to clip to the keyboard once the thumb buttons are removed. It's been wonderful. I'm reaching the stage where I'm just as dexterous now with my thumb as I was with my regular mouse, and my right hand isn't constantly searching for the home row when I return to type. I can't recommend it enough.

fullyforged 5y ago
This sounds really interesting! Do you have photos/a link to share?
mariusor 5y ago
The guys at Ultimate Hacking Keyboard have a trackball module[1] for their split keyboard that uses the same idea. [1] https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball https://ultimatehackingkeyboard.com/product/trackball
sithadmin 5y ago
As a fellow Moonlander user, I'd love to see a write-up of what you did.
wjdp 5y ago
Unsure if I could live without the right thumb cluster but would be really interested in a write-up/photos of this project.

cle 5y ago

Take care of your hands. I went on a crusade to go mouseless a few years ago, and eventually it resulted in RSI from typing so much. Focus on your posture, take breaks, stretch your hands and fingers, get an ergonomic keyboard, etc. An under-appreciated benefit of using a mouse (as a programmer) is that it "switches things up" on your hands so that you aren't doing the same repetitive motions all day long. You can be marginally faster with a mouseless workflow, but you're definitely not very productive when you can't type for months due to RSI.

cainxinth 5y ago
My computer-related RSI prevention tips: Get separate mouse and keyboard wrist rests. Use a vertical mouse instead of a traditional one. Use more than one type of mousing device and switch up from time to time. Graphic tablets with digital pens take some getting used to but are excellent. Look up RSI forearm stretches and take breaks to stretch your arms and hands for a few moments at least every few hours. I'm also a big fan of gyro ball exercisers. Get an ergonomic chair with movable arm rests that can keep your arms at around the same height as the desk your working at.
- treeman79 5y ago
  Started having severe wrist pain 20 year ago. I got a bean bag wrist pad. No pain ever so long as I use bran bag ones. Comes back quick without.
- jxramos 5y ago
  I second the alternation idea, I have something like 4 input devices I alternate between to "spread the load" across different limbs and body parts. People experiment with different keyboard layouts too that basically remap the characters to different keys on the keyboard. * roller mouse * left hand vertical mouse * right hand vertical mouse * trackpad * foot pedal
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  What are some vertical mouse recommendations? I currently have an ancient Anker vertical mouse and am curious if one of the $100+ mice is worth the upgrade.

amelius 5y ago

I'm using a simple Wacom tablet. However, I still switch to the mouse for some tasks (Inkscape, KiCAD), because of the scrollwheel (indispensable for quick zooming). I wish there was a hybrid solution (e.g. tablet with separate wheel for zooming) which is easy to set up in Linux.

nodejs_rulez_1 5y ago

Now go fingerless on your smartphone. Oh, we make an exception there do we?

sillyquiet 5y ago
I think the snark is overboard, but I get what you are saying - but I will defend the article in that it's a neat experiment and it sort of highlights gaps in accessibility, like others in the thread have noted. However, my first computer was a Commodore 64 and I currently have a Commodore 64 emulator I love playing around with - and doing everything in keyboard commands is a pita for things like word processors and spreadsheets even when you have the shortcuts in muscle memory. There's a reason the mouse was so successful.
toast0 5y ago
Physical keyboards on smart phones were glorious. Not all the apps would let you go through fields using only the keyboard (and some keyboards didn't have enough navigation keys, anyway), but when it worked well, it worked well. Sadly, it cost money to include a keyboard, so the race to the bottom means you can't find them anymore. Just like real back buttons.
- brokenmachine 5y ago
  Personally, I don't want a physical keyboard on my phone. I am irritated that the menu button was taken away on Android, that was good UI. Now every app does menu differently which is a massive step backwards for discoverability and consistency.
qu4z-2 5y ago
I wish I could, frankly, but smartphone UIs are just not designed for it sadly. Heck, input boxes don't even autofocus on Android (presumably because a virtual keyboard pops up over half the screen for most people once they focus an input) so I need to jab the login field before I can start typing. Whether or not Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V actually copy paste within any given application is about 50/50 (and not always the same between copy and paste!). Since the big new version of Mobile Firefox it no longer scrolls when you send it scroll events (presumably there's a child frame or something). Then again, Android is just generally not ready for production in a lot of ways other than keyboard support (the latter of which I sort of forgive them for -- phone keyboards are unfortunately quite rare these days). So yes, we make an exception, but it's due to necessity not desirability.

dolni 5y ago

If you're interested in a mouseless browser experience, another great option is qutebrowser: https://qutebrowser.org/ https://qutebrowser.org/

whall6 5y ago

Investment bankers are judged for using the mouse when using excel. It’s a rite of passage to be completely mouseless

908B64B197 5y ago
Intern: Uses the mouse Junior: TrackPoint Senior: Keyboard Only Partner: Has someone else use the computer
agumonkey 5y ago
I remember some finance dude handling excel like a korean gamer playing starcraft, it was as exciting as humbling.
- f00zz 5y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xubbVvKbUfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xubbVvKbUfY
  - agumonkey 5y ago
    wrong link

enricozb 5y ago

If you're on linux, consider trying a tiling wm like i3 [0] or sway (wayland) [1]. New windows automatically place themselves in a nice place and don't overlap. It's extremely (if not entirely) keyboard driven and pretty configurable. [0]: https://i3wm.org/ https://i3wm.org/ [1]: https://swaywm.org/ https://swaywm.org/

michaelcampbell 5y ago
Last time I checked there was no equivalent to these, or any sort of actual tiling manager in MacOS; is this still the case? (For anyone to answer, if you know.)
- bpanon 5y ago
  Amethyst is pretty good
  - samhh 5y ago
    I think that was replaced by Rectangle.
    - timtrav 5y ago
      Rectangle and Amethyst are both great, but only Amethyst will auto-tile your windows as you open them, like i3. Rectangle just exposes keybindings to resize the selected window.
- ggm 5y ago
  https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai https://github.com/koekeishiya/yabai
- justindirose 5y ago
  I use Yabai and it works very well. Similar to i3 in how it tiles, and quite customizable.
RMPR 5y ago

Koshkin 5y ago

I use text-mode links whenever I can, works great (even on Windows [0]). [0] http://links.twibright.com/download/binaries/win32/ http://links.twibright.com/download/binaries/win32/

agumonkey 5y ago

I'm at a courthouse, their software is web based and it's so horrendously inefficient. They tried to make a few keybindings but it's mostly mouse driven. Not even Enter to submit the main form. Gah. Lead dev please remember how fast a keyboard is and how important it is to go swift on simple jobs duties. Ergonomy and efficiency.

brokenmachine 5y ago
Could you use greasemonkey or something to add the Enter to submit? Also there's vimium which might help. If you do it all the time, it's worth fixing it.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  they use IE, there's chrome but it's locked (no devtools) I don't think they allowed for extensions (security risks) but I could check. right now I'm investigating automation through powershell (ie com object yields the DOM and js runtim)

toiletaccount 5y ago

I've been doing this for the past 15 years. I use bash, tmux, (n)vim and git. It runs in whatever WM and on any OS I'll encounter. If your environment is a few simple tools, it's basically future proof and very portable. I like to keep config files fairly minimal as well so I don't become dependant on custom keybinds or functionality. Touch screens on laptops have really made things nice for mouseless browser use. (eg, when you can't keyboard select a field or button)

brokenmachine 5y ago
I can never imagine wanting to use a touch screen rather than a mouse which is much closer and more ergonomic, and has multiple buttons.
- toiletaccount 5y ago
  I mapped a button to disable mouse input since the pad is right under my wrists when I type. For selecting one or two radio buttons or text fields, it's quicker to use the screen.
RMPR 5y ago
> Touch screens on laptops have really made things nice for mouseless browser use. (eg, when you can't keyboard select a field or button) The trackpoint makes it even better since your hands do not move from the keyboard in the first place

smoldesu 5y ago

For me, the key to "mouseless" is going to be the Tex Shinobi[0]. I haven't quite worked up the confidence to buy one yet (partially because current mechanical keyboard still works frustratingly well), but I look forwards to the day I could get something like this for TrackPoint synergy across all my typing surfaces. [0] https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi https://tex.com.tw/products/shinobi

ndand 5y ago

My attempt to make a practical keyboard-driven cursor app for Windows: https://github.com/ndandoulakis/SlickCursor https://github.com/ndandoulakis/SlickCursor

alkonaut 5y ago

A mouse or trackpad is a 2D input device. Unless you have a 2D input problem (dragging nodes in a graph, drawing a free form curve, selecting a point on a map…) then it was never the right tool to begin with. Navigating discrete UI elements or making simple UI actions of the kind that can be mapped to keyboard input - that’s easily doable with a keyboard. Occasionally it’s just a tad harder with keyboard than with mouse (web pages are notoriously useless with keyboard) but it’s possible. I wouldn’t last a day without going crazy without a mouse though. People who say they have gone mouseless also seem to argue they have zero 2D input and basically use text and ignore all other workloads. That’s not exactly solving the problem (not that I think it can be solved any better than just using a mouse!)

CharlesW 5y ago
> Unless you have a 2D input problem… Are not most GUIs are a 2D input mechanism?
- alkonaut 5y ago
  Sort of (depends on terminology): A form is a set of controls laid out in 2D. But they are ordered and discrete so you can just ignore their positioning in x,y and instead navigate in their order instead (e.g tabbing through controls) making it a 1D input! By “2D input” in this context I mean input where there isn’t also such a navigation option and you must input one or more coordinates and there is no way to enter the coordinates as numbers. For example the input surface (image) in a drawing program like Microsoft paint.
  - auggierose 5y ago
    Random access vs. sequential access. Guess which one is more efficient?
    - CharlesW 5y ago
      I think you're equating "random" with keyboard and "sequential" with mouse, but I also think of keyboard as "serial" and keyboard + mouse as "parallel". I know my conclusion from your comment is supposed to be "keyboard is faster", but I'm not sure that's true. https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html

CharlesW 5y ago

For anyone considering doing this for speed reasons: We’ve done a cool $50 million of R&D on the Apple Human Interface. We discovered, among other things, two pertinent facts: • Test subjects consistently report that keyboarding is faster than mousing. • The stopwatch consistently proves mousing is faster than keyboarding. This contradiction between user-experience and reality apparently forms the basis for many user/developers’ belief that the keyboard is faster. https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html https://www.asktog.com/TOI/toi06KeyboardVMouse1.html

xyzzy123 5y ago
I wonder if this is due to the mouse requiring a sort of constant attentional feedback loop as you look at the screen and guide it where to go. Even if it's subconscious and technically faster, or even an illusion - I feel like mouse is consuming more cognitive resources. The feedback loop with keyboard can feel quite different, in flow it feels like you issue commands and look for immediate response. Also, when doing a repetitive task you quickly pick up key rhythms and patterns without needing prodigous memory to recall every possible "shortcut". What I am not sure the user interface testing covered is making users perform the same task 50 times per day. I don't think that using keyboard to control mouse has the same advantages as a keyboard-native interface.
- strogonoff 5y ago
  The essence of the difference between keyboard and mouse interfaces is simply that the mouse introduces that extra mechanical layer between user’s intent and internal APIs, but offers the advantage of discoverability. That advantage and disadvantage tradeoff heavily depends on the nature of core functionality, how it’s mapped to the UI by the developer/designer, and user’s overall experience and familiarity with software.
zck 5y ago
This article also says: > It takes two seconds to decide upon which special-function key to press. Deciding among abstract symbols is a high-level cognitive function. Not only is this decision not boring, the user actually experiences amnesia! Real amnesia! The time-slice spent making the decision simply ceases to exist. That's not my experience at all. Once you learn a keyboard shortcut, it doesn't take two seconds to recall it. Were his tests on expert users, or on beginners?

user3939382 5y ago

Keyboard is faster when instructing the computer for actions that you execute all the time. For situations where it’s practical to learn a keyboard input, it’s great. Where this interface paradigm breaks down are in contexts where the input is novel. Keyboard shortcuts and commands have a discoverability problem that has not been commonly solved in way that makes them faster than the mouse for new/rare users.

tkainrad 5y ago
> Keyboard shortcuts and commands have a discoverability problem that has not been commonly solved [...] You might want to have a look at KeyCombiner Desktop[1], an application that can show the shortcuts for the current app without leaving it. On macOS, it even shows shortcuts for the current browser tab. This solved the problem for me. Disclaimer: I made KeyCombiner [1] https://keycombiner.com/desktop/ https://keycombiner.com/desktop/

dotBen 5y ago

oh boy. I'm happy to send the OP a mouse from Amazon if they DM me their address

alpb 5y ago

For macOS, if you like Vimium, you'll like Vimac https://vimacapp.com/ https://vimacapp.com/ as well. It supersedes vimium but vimium is still better while working in the browser context. I'm also actively trying to go mouseless and Vimium+Vimac and setting custom keybindings to move/click my mouse on my ZSA Moonlander keyboard are currently helping me excellently. In many cases, moving your hand to the mouse, finding the cursor, moving it and clicking it is a lot slower than a keystroke combo like F-SD.

asjldkfin 5y ago
I have the exact same setup as you, moonlander + vimium + vimac. Out of curiousity, how are you binding Vimac? I'm binding it to where the right-shift key should be, and it's worked well, but always curious about alternative setups.
- alpb 5y ago
  Ctrl Shift F for me and my Moonlander keyboard has a dedicated key for it, so the combo really doesn’t matter.
  - asjldkfin 5y ago
    which dedicated key?

a-b 5y ago

OS X users could try https://github.com/pqrs-org/KE-complex_modifications/blob/master/src/json/mouse_keys_mode_v4.json.rb https://github.com/pqrs-org/KE-complex_modifications/blob/ma...

a-b 5y ago
Nicer UI https://ke-complex-modifications.pqrs.org/?q=Mouse%20Keys%20Mode%20v4 https://ke-complex-modifications.pqrs.org/?q=Mouse%20Keys%20...

swader999 5y ago

What I want is a very small thumb trackball mouse that I can stick right in the middle of my truly ergonomic cleave keyboard.

darnir 5y ago
The Ultimate Hackers Keyboard has exactly that as a module you can attach to the keyboard.
- swader999 5y ago
  It does it does! Very tempted.
dredmorbius 5y ago
That's quite close to what the IBM/Lenovo Trackpoint offers. No, it's not a trackball (it operates by pressure rather than rolling), but the navigation is quite precise, and leaves both hands on the keyboard and home-row keys. I've reached the point I'd like that for a desktop keyboard as well as laptop.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > I'd like [the IBM/Lenovo Trackpoint] for a desktop keyboard as well as laptop. I think such things are commercially available. At least I'm fairly sure I saw them advertised on the Internet, not many years ago.
the_gipsy 5y ago
Not sure what cleave keyboard is, but you can stick a tint pimoroni trackball on any qmk keyboard microcontroller.

Stratoscope 5y ago

The article notes that you can use MouseKeys on Windows. MouseKeys is great, but only works if your keyboard has a numeric keypad. Since I've used ThinkPads for many years, I wrote a program some time ago I called JKLmouse. It gives similar functionality to MouseKeys, but works on ThinkPad and other laptop keyboards that don't have a numeric pad. It does help to have actual mouse buttons like on a ThinkPad. If you have laptop where the only way to do a mouse click is by pressing on the touchpad it won't work so well, because just the act of pressing the touchpad is likely to move the mouse pointer slightly. JKLmouse and the TrackPoint work together nicely. You can use the TrackPoint for larger mouse motions and then use the keyboard for precise positioning, all seamlessly. There is an installer, but for programmers I suggest instead installing AutoHotkey separately, and then download and configure JKLmouse.ahk to run at startup. If I do say so myself, I think it's a good example of some well-written AutoHotkey code. Maybe it will give you some ideas of other things you can do with AutoHotkey. https://www.jklmouse.com/ https://www.jklmouse.com/

jemurray 5y ago

I’ve used vi for 25 years now. Every shortcut and key combination is burned into unconscious memory. This holds true for all other applications used on a regular basis.

the_af 5y ago

I think keyboard-only being faster is a red herring, much like all the frequent arguing about learning to touch type to be "faster". I don't doubt many hackers and programmers truly enjoy doing everything from the keyboard, and that they can do it really fast too. However, I simply don't buy this is an ideal we should strive for in general. The mouse has an awesome UX property: it has zero friction for discoverability. It's always there, I know I can point and click and interact with something, I know I can drag stuff and I know I can group and select. Some UIs break this expectation, sure, but more often than not it will work. I don't have to memorize shortcuts or develop "muscle memory" and can instead devote my brain power to the actual task I want to solve. If I stay a long time away from a certain editor or tool, I don't have to worry about forgetting its shortcuts -- the mouse is always there, reliable as always. I'm an experienced programmer and a power user in many cases, and I do remember my share of shortcuts. But give me a mouse, anytime -- maybe I spent years away from your app, but I'll know how to use it, and fast. And those shortcuts be damned.

urthor 5y ago
Exactly. it mirrors the command line experience. Command line is faster/move convenient once you've learnt how, but finding out how to use it involves reading a manual basically. Each individual task involves a search for a command line command that executes it. Whilst the learning process for GUI is intuitive because it depends on a chain of tasks that are presented to the user as a visual dashboard. Two entirely distinct learning processes.
senorsmile 5y ago
I've been using awesome wm with a slightly customized settings. This plus vimium gets me to >99% keyboard only. When I have to use a Mac, my slow down is so noticeable.

michaelkaufman 5y ago

I program with a Magic Trackpad 2. There's not too much I can't do with gestures vs a keyboard. It's much faster than using two hands. I also set it up for 3-finger drag and that's the killer app within the app. With that, moving windows around is dramatically faster than a mouse. I can select text with 3-finger drag and then two-finger tap for the context menu to see: definitions, copy/paste, delete etc..). Navigating my laptop is more enjoyable when I can use all five fingers for different things. Apple should take this feature out of the Accessibility menus and put it where it belongs with the trackpad prefs.

sudosysgen 5y ago
Can't your window manager let you move windows using a key + mouse? Much faster than a mouse imo, and I used to use a Magic Trackpad also.

noxer 5y ago

Well Trackpoints are a thing still and way better than moving the mouse with the keys. Yes you can get desktop keyboard with trackpoints too. For longer mouse task I switch to a real mouse anyway.

blendergeek 5y ago

@dang, should this not have (1989) in the title? Or am I misunderstanding exactly when we put a year in the title?

jodrellblank 5y ago

> "With the Vimium extension installed, pressing f will make every visible link on the page get a one-to-three letter shortcut." This is a UX which happens quite often, but doesn't seem to get discussed much. I want to say it's more of a hybrid between keyboard and mouse even though it's all keyboard driven. I mean popping up numbers temporarily over things you might act on, then they vanish and might not be the same number on the same thing next time. e.g. a meta key in a web browser which overlays the tabs with numbers, you press a number to switch to the tab, then the numbers vanish. The point would be that you don't have to read through them to work out which one you want, you don't have to manually count "how many things from the left" or "what's a unique substring to search for", you are already looking at the one you want so the number which appears on it is pseudo-eyeball-tracking, look at the thing you want, press the meta key, type the number which appears, ignore the other numbers. Like line numbers and Vim "49G" to jump to line 49, Win+Digit to run taskbar items, Windows menu underlined accelerators.

ericwooley 5y ago

A little off topic, but I got a UHK with the trackpoint module. It's been amazing. UHK also has a mouse layer if you don't want the module. Not having to move your fingers off the keyboard is what really saves me time, and has completely cured my tennis elbow. Can't recommend it enough

tkainrad 5y ago

Vimium was one of the first tools I learned shortcuts for with KeyCombiner[1]. I still have to use KeyCombiner Desktop's instant lookup[2] feature from time to time to look up its more unusual bindings. A somewhat related blog post: Learning all VSCode shortcuts evolved my developing habits [3] [1] https://keycombiner.com/ https://keycombiner.com/ [2] A feature to look up shortcuts without leaving your current app. Can show shortcuts of the current app, current browser tab (macOS only), and shortcuts that you manually curated in collections. [3] https://tkainrad.dev/posts/learning-all-vscode-shortcuts-evolved-my-developing-habits/ https://tkainrad.dev/posts/learning-all-vscode-shortcuts-evo...

orhanerday 5y ago

it's looking amazing.