6 ms·

CDC: Covid-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Infections in Massachusetts

31 points by aazaa 5y ago

taxicabjesus 5y ago
This is a stake through the heart of efforts to promote COVID-19 EUA vaccines to the vaccine-hesitant. The CDC is going to tell us the fully vaccinated need booster shots in the fall. Anyone who hasn't gotten a shot yet will see through the efforts to get them vaccinated: what's the point, if natural infections are the only way to get protective immunity? I'm making the best of our predicament. Tweeted yesterday about having fun commiserating with the unfortunate masked employee at the grocery store: https://twitter.com/TaxiCabJesus/status/1420989505163567107 https://twitter.com/TaxiCabJesus/status/1420989505163567107
- somewhereoutth 5y ago
  With this comment we realize that the American experiment has essentially failed - and that in fact, left to their own devices, with only 'freedom' to guide them, people will inevitably devolve into mindless cretins.
  - InTheArena 5y ago
    If you think that this is the failure of American experiment, you are deeply ignorant of the liberal human rights infested democracy in which you either live or do not live.
  - hattmall 5y ago
    Natural immunity would seem superior as there are many more breakthrough cases in vaccinated vs reinfections.
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  > what's the point, if natural infections are the only way to get protective immunity? Natural infection from back with the original virus? I've not seen any evidence and can't think of a logical reason why it would be more effective than a vaccine based on the original virus. I think the real problem is going to be people who were never exposed to the virus getting a variant that is transmitting effectively through people with immunity to the original virus from any source. A way for a variant to get to that is to reach levels that kill anyone not previously exposed. Fear for people who have an immunity I find misplaced, for those who are immunized or survive an ever more dangerous first infection this is going to be our new flu, and it will send people to hospital and very rarely kill.
  - mikem170 5y ago
    > can't think of a logical reason why it would be more effective than a vaccine based on the original virus. Because the body's immune system can target the entire virus, and not just the spike protein.
    - tapoxi 5y ago
      But is there any evidence that this matters or has a noticeable impact? I also imagine that the vaccine simulates a much higher viral load than a mild case.
      - mikem170 5y ago
        > But is there any evidence that this matters or has a noticeable impact? I came across this paper [0] that seemed to be saying their tests showed that the vaccine antibodies better handled the receptor mutations they created (how much better? 100%? or 1%?), but that antibodies from a natural infection target other parts of the virus besides just the receptor (possibly offering broader protection): > Therefore, antibody immunity acquired by natural infection or different modes of vaccination may have a differing susceptibility to erosion by SARS-CoV-2 evolution. > The neutralizing activity of vaccine-elicited antibodies was more targeted to the receptor-binding domain (RBD) of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein compared to antibodies elicited by natural infection. However, within the RBD, binding of vaccine-elicited antibodies was more broadly distributed across epitopes compared to infection-elicited antibodies. There's so much they don't know about the immune system. The above doesn't even get into T-cells. > I also imagine that the vaccine simulates a much higher viral load than a mild case. I found the article on these Massachusetts cases interesting. They found a bunch of vaccine breakthrough cases, not cases amongst people who already had covid. On it's own that seems to imply natural immunity might be better, don't you think? Have you seen anything to the contrary? Maybe too close to call at this point. Could go either way. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      Even with the vaccines there are many antibodies for other parts of the virus than have mutated , they're just not very effective. There are also inactivated whole virus vaccines, they're not very effective either.
- InTheArena 5y ago
  If you do receive a vaccine, the overwhelming evidence is that the case will be dramatically less dangerous. Let’s call herd immunity what it is - human sacrifice..
  - babesh 5y ago
    There are other interpretations/courses of action: - people who are vulnerable should take the vaccine but those who are not shouldn’t; vulnerable need to take boosters every 6 months - masks forever - back to normal and live with it A question is how much protection getting COVID-19 confers vs the vaccines. The hilarious thing would be if getting COVID-19 confers more protection. - Then we should ban people who haven’t gotten COVID-19 from work, public spaces, etc… even if they have been vaccinated as certain people want to do to the unvaccinated.
- hackflip 5y ago
  Governments lie and lies (masks don't work, just two weeks, how dare you not wear a mask, social distancing is important unless you're a politician, you'll get your freedom back once your vaccinated, etc), but then anyone who questions them is "anti-science".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kaminar 5y ago
94% natural resistance plus more with zero symptoms...0.2% death rate... This is what we've destroyed the world for.
mint2 5y ago
Why are anti vaxxers so vocal? Or are there just more of them on HN? On any thread about the virus it seems the first comments are all ones that are negative towards the vaccine. I don’t really get it, if one thinks the the vaccine is bad then Covid should be mega double plus bad. If one thinks Covid is mild, then vaccines should be like taking a placebo. It doesn’t make sense that there’s a huge fear and resistance to a small subset of virus proteins but a cavalier dismissal of the full blown virus. Why does that make sense? It’s like being afraid of jogging a mile and being loudly opinionated about hating running but then quickly agreeing to doing a iron man marathon as an of shape individual.
- api 5y ago
  A bunch of "intellectual dark web" figures have been beating around that bush, doing their typical act of implying a controversial position with plausible deniability and a lot of qualifiers and then backpedaling and acting offended if called on it. It's the same dance they do with "race realism" and Bell Curve ideology and other alt-right-adjacent stuff they soft-pill their audiences on. HN has a fairly large contingent of people with extremely high IQs who follow that stuff. My own IQ is obviously too low to comprehend the most advanced thinkers on YouTube. I've already looked into whether I can get a third booster. Low IQ strikes again. I'll probably be dead from vaccine side effects within a year.
- yeuxardents 5y ago
  At the risk of downvotes, not that I care, there are people out there who are exercising their own due caution for their own health reasons, based on individualized specifics. When has there EVER been a one size fits all solution to health, very rarely. That being said, I dont have social media and I dont see what you see. From where I sit, I see very little of vocal antivaxxers and significantly of the exact opposite - extremely vocal shaming of anyone who has not taken the vax by people who have. Many of the people I have spoken to, who have not, have experienced in their lives long-term health effects of ill advised medication - much of it from these very same companies. To demand that they take a new medication that has no longitudinal studies associated with it, along with warnings out there, either from the FDAs own website, or from former workers of these vaccine companies, seems cruel.
jrnichols 5y ago
the most frightening thing about this is that the immediate reaction is revert to some places mandating the one thing that does absolutely nothing and has done nothing since the beginning - "face coverings." haven't seen one peer reviewed study yet showing that masks mandates work against sars-cov2, but plenty of studies showing that mask mandates haven't. Or, they've had a negligible effect. this change, and the subsequent media interpretation, will only drive vaccine hesitant further behind. All they're seeing is "the vaccines don't work." Terrible messaging by the CDC, and this has made the Biden administration look incompetent. we're back to square 1 again, except we aren't spraying groceries with lysol. yet.
- kbos87 5y ago
  It’s relatively simple, settled science that masks are effective against airborne pathogens, but I agree that all the rhetoric ignores the fact that masks are only as good as people are at wearing them. Visit any airport in America and you’ll see at least a third of the people technically wearing a mask, but not effectively wearing a mask. Vaccines are our way out of this, full stop.
antattack 5y ago
I find it interesting that 85% of infected were males. Perhaps because women are more likely to wash their hands? "65% of women and 35% of men washed their hands" [1] [1]https://info.debgroup.com/blog/bid/297508/are-women-better-than-men-when-it-comes-to-hand-washing-practices https://info.debgroup.com/blog/bid/297508/are-women-better-t...

31 points by aazaa 5y ago

This is a stake through the heart of efforts to promote COVID-19 EUA vaccines to the vaccine-hesitant. The CDC is going to tell us the fully vaccinated need booster shots in the fall. Anyone who hasn't gotten a shot yet will see through the efforts to get them vaccinated: what's the point, if natural infections are the only way to get protective immunity? I'm making the best of our predicament. Tweeted yesterday about having fun commiserating with the unfortunate masked employee at the grocery store: https://twitter.com/TaxiCabJesus/status/1420989505163567107 https://twitter.com/TaxiCabJesus/status/1420989505163567107

somewhereoutth 5y ago
With this comment we realize that the American experiment has essentially failed - and that in fact, left to their own devices, with only 'freedom' to guide them, people will inevitably devolve into mindless cretins.
- InTheArena 5y ago
  If you think that this is the failure of American experiment, you are deeply ignorant of the liberal human rights infested democracy in which you either live or do not live.
- hattmall 5y ago
  Natural immunity would seem superior as there are many more breakthrough cases in vaccinated vs reinfections.
smorgusofborg 5y ago
> what's the point, if natural infections are the only way to get protective immunity? Natural infection from back with the original virus? I've not seen any evidence and can't think of a logical reason why it would be more effective than a vaccine based on the original virus. I think the real problem is going to be people who were never exposed to the virus getting a variant that is transmitting effectively through people with immunity to the original virus from any source. A way for a variant to get to that is to reach levels that kill anyone not previously exposed. Fear for people who have an immunity I find misplaced, for those who are immunized or survive an ever more dangerous first infection this is going to be our new flu, and it will send people to hospital and very rarely kill.
- mikem170 5y ago
  > can't think of a logical reason why it would be more effective than a vaccine based on the original virus. Because the body's immune system can target the entire virus, and not just the spike protein.
  - tapoxi 5y ago
    But is there any evidence that this matters or has a noticeable impact? I also imagine that the vaccine simulates a much higher viral load than a mild case.
    - mikem170 5y ago
      > But is there any evidence that this matters or has a noticeable impact? I came across this paper [0] that seemed to be saying their tests showed that the vaccine antibodies better handled the receptor mutations they created (how much better? 100%? or 1%?), but that antibodies from a natural infection target other parts of the virus besides just the receptor (possibly offering broader protection): > Therefore, antibody immunity acquired by natural infection or different modes of vaccination may have a differing susceptibility to erosion by SARS-CoV-2 evolution. > The neutralizing activity of vaccine-elicited antibodies was more targeted to the receptor-binding domain (RBD) of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein compared to antibodies elicited by natural infection. However, within the RBD, binding of vaccine-elicited antibodies was more broadly distributed across epitopes compared to infection-elicited antibodies. There's so much they don't know about the immune system. The above doesn't even get into T-cells. > I also imagine that the vaccine simulates a much higher viral load than a mild case. I found the article on these Massachusetts cases interesting. They found a bunch of vaccine breakthrough cases, not cases amongst people who already had covid. On it's own that seems to imply natural immunity might be better, don't you think? Have you seen anything to the contrary? Maybe too close to call at this point. Could go either way. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34103407/
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    Even with the vaccines there are many antibodies for other parts of the virus than have mutated , they're just not very effective. There are also inactivated whole virus vaccines, they're not very effective either.
InTheArena 5y ago
If you do receive a vaccine, the overwhelming evidence is that the case will be dramatically less dangerous. Let’s call herd immunity what it is - human sacrifice..
- babesh 5y ago
  There are other interpretations/courses of action: - people who are vulnerable should take the vaccine but those who are not shouldn’t; vulnerable need to take boosters every 6 months - masks forever - back to normal and live with it A question is how much protection getting COVID-19 confers vs the vaccines. The hilarious thing would be if getting COVID-19 confers more protection. - Then we should ban people who haven’t gotten COVID-19 from work, public spaces, etc… even if they have been vaccinated as certain people want to do to the unvaccinated.
hackflip 5y ago
Governments lie and lies (masks don't work, just two weeks, how dare you not wear a mask, social distancing is important unless you're a politician, you'll get your freedom back once your vaccinated, etc), but then anyone who questions them is "anti-science".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kaminar 5y ago

94% natural resistance plus more with zero symptoms...0.2% death rate... This is what we've destroyed the world for.

mint2 5y ago

Why are anti vaxxers so vocal? Or are there just more of them on HN? On any thread about the virus it seems the first comments are all ones that are negative towards the vaccine. I don’t really get it, if one thinks the the vaccine is bad then Covid should be mega double plus bad. If one thinks Covid is mild, then vaccines should be like taking a placebo. It doesn’t make sense that there’s a huge fear and resistance to a small subset of virus proteins but a cavalier dismissal of the full blown virus. Why does that make sense? It’s like being afraid of jogging a mile and being loudly opinionated about hating running but then quickly agreeing to doing a iron man marathon as an of shape individual.

api 5y ago
A bunch of "intellectual dark web" figures have been beating around that bush, doing their typical act of implying a controversial position with plausible deniability and a lot of qualifiers and then backpedaling and acting offended if called on it. It's the same dance they do with "race realism" and Bell Curve ideology and other alt-right-adjacent stuff they soft-pill their audiences on. HN has a fairly large contingent of people with extremely high IQs who follow that stuff. My own IQ is obviously too low to comprehend the most advanced thinkers on YouTube. I've already looked into whether I can get a third booster. Low IQ strikes again. I'll probably be dead from vaccine side effects within a year.
yeuxardents 5y ago
At the risk of downvotes, not that I care, there are people out there who are exercising their own due caution for their own health reasons, based on individualized specifics. When has there EVER been a one size fits all solution to health, very rarely. That being said, I dont have social media and I dont see what you see. From where I sit, I see very little of vocal antivaxxers and significantly of the exact opposite - extremely vocal shaming of anyone who has not taken the vax by people who have. Many of the people I have spoken to, who have not, have experienced in their lives long-term health effects of ill advised medication - much of it from these very same companies. To demand that they take a new medication that has no longitudinal studies associated with it, along with warnings out there, either from the FDAs own website, or from former workers of these vaccine companies, seems cruel.

jrnichols 5y ago

the most frightening thing about this is that the immediate reaction is revert to some places mandating the one thing that does absolutely nothing and has done nothing since the beginning - "face coverings." haven't seen one peer reviewed study yet showing that masks mandates work against sars-cov2, but plenty of studies showing that mask mandates haven't. Or, they've had a negligible effect. this change, and the subsequent media interpretation, will only drive vaccine hesitant further behind. All they're seeing is "the vaccines don't work." Terrible messaging by the CDC, and this has made the Biden administration look incompetent. we're back to square 1 again, except we aren't spraying groceries with lysol. yet.

kbos87 5y ago
It’s relatively simple, settled science that masks are effective against airborne pathogens, but I agree that all the rhetoric ignores the fact that masks are only as good as people are at wearing them. Visit any airport in America and you’ll see at least a third of the people technically wearing a mask, but not effectively wearing a mask. Vaccines are our way out of this, full stop.

antattack 5y ago

I find it interesting that 85% of infected were males. Perhaps because women are more likely to wash their hands? "65% of women and 35% of men washed their hands" [1] [1]https://info.debgroup.com/blog/bid/297508/are-women-better-than-men-when-it-comes-to-hand-washing-practices https://info.debgroup.com/blog/bid/297508/are-women-better-t...