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This seems to largely match a lot of the same things that happened with Riot Games over the last couple of years. I am hoping that these actions can help spread

This seems to largely match a lot of the same things that happened with Riot Games over the last couple of years. I am hoping that these actions can help spread awareness of any issues that may be present at Blizzard and past, current, and future employees won't face the same issues. It is a long road to be traveled to get there. I hope that the current WFH situation doesn't detract from the walkout. A lot of the visibility raised when Riot went through this was outside of the Riot gates where employees were congregated. Without speculating on the claims, I do find it interesting that the DFEH has lawsuits against both Riot Games and Blizzard for similar issues. I recall reading that Riot's response was that the DFEH was not working in good faith: are both of these companies aligning their responses, is the DFEH out of line, or is the industry just that broken?

madamelic 5y ago
> is the DFEH out of line, or is the industry just that broken? No chance DEFH is out of line. The tech industry is strongly biased in the favor of white men in my opinion and video games even more so, considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago. It's still common for men to talk down to women on video games, to the point where the overwhelming majority of women do not use voice comms or make their gender known. Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character or even more so, a non-conventionally attractive one gasp. That was in 2018... That's the _average_ person who is making a video game.
- oceanghost 5y ago
  Please don't conflate "white men" with these assholes. I'm so tired of being blamed for the behavior of folks with the same genitalia/skin color as me.
  - soverycool 5y ago
    It's acceptable racism for this person to say something so abhorrent.
    - madamelic 5y ago
      I mean, I could've probably left "white" out and it would've been just as accurate. I do apologize for my "shoot from the hip" and should've been less specific about "white men" vs "men". I can't be totally sure of a racist undertone in tech since I am white. I don't know _for sure_ if PoC men feel the same discrimination.
      - soverycool 5y ago
        Yes, I know you're full of sexist, racist opinions you want to share with us all.
  - t-writescode 5y ago
    I believe the common response here to this sort of comment is "yes, not all men, but too many men", and that it's the responsibility of men to call out the men they see being that kind of deplorable on their actions, to reduce the frequency of those men.
    - ballenf 5y ago
      It still feels so strange to me to criticize an entire race or gender lump for a perceived trait of that group (here, the trait of not calling out sexism enough).
    - ahtihn 5y ago
      Yeah no, it's not the responsibility of men that do nothing wrong to call out other men. If you said that it's the respinsibility of all black people to call out black criminals for their bad behavior, you'd rightfully get called a racist. I don't see how this is different.
    - throwaway894345 5y ago
      But that's a patently sexist retort. Peter and Sue are equally responsible for Ron's abhorrent behavior.
    - RHSeeger 5y ago
      Shaming all men for what a (bad) subset of men do is sexist. Shaming all white men for what a (bad) subset of white men do is sexist and racist. Shaming all black men because some black men are criminals is racist. Highlighting that the (good) majority should call out the (bad) minority is reasonable. Blaming the whole is not. It's true regardless of the target race, or sex, or gender, etc.
      - pengstrom 5y ago
        "Men" is both a social and biological differentiator. They are the only ones with power to stop this if they want to. We can play philosophy but reality is what it is. Sexism continues because men look the other way, not because women endure it.
- kook_throwaway 5y ago
  >It's still common for men to talk down to women on video games, to the point where the overwhelming majority of women do not use voice comms or make their gender known. Gamers talk down to everyone on video games and have since they have been invented. This sounds like a new group of people entering an existing space and not understanding the dynamic (namely incessant shittalking). I can't even count how many strangers have not so kindly informed me of their sexual adventures with my parents. Am I missing something here?
  - mchanson 5y ago
    yes.
    - blacktriangle 5y ago
      He really isn't.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - adamrezich 5y ago
    yeah, you're missing the potential on-paper profits to be made from making video games more accessible to a wider audience by sanitizing them and their communities. whether this change is is a good idea in the long run or not can be debated, but that's where the last decade or so of rhetoric against "toxic gamer culture" is coming from, regardless of what is said. could any of the downvoters please tell me how I'm wrong?
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      Having been a gamer for over 30 years now I can assure you that "toxic gamer culture" is very much a thing. You think swatting people is something a healthy culture of good-natured ribbing does?
      - adamrezich 5y ago
- bin_bash 5y ago
  > Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character or even more so, a non-conventionally attractive one gasp. That was in 2018... That's the _average_ person who is making a video game. What game are you referring to?
  - imbnwa 5y ago
    The Last of Us Part II I presume
    - edoceo 5y ago
      Wild! Heres a summary https://collider.com/last-of-us-2-controversy-explained/ https://collider.com/last-of-us-2-controversy-explained/
      - imbnwa 5y ago
        Though I was misattributed the subject of the controversy, I'd like to use this comment to say that TLOU2 is the greatest game I've ever played.
        the_doctah 5y ago
        It really does earn that Metacritic score, doesn't it? Almost a perfect game in every way. No plot holes, no silly characterization, totally fun game from start to finish.
    - username90 5y ago
      It is about battlefield 5, the last of us was last year. More specifically people didn't like the depiction of world war 2 in this trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ZpQadiyqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ZpQadiyqs
      - imbnwa 5y ago
        Thank you for the correction
- fidesomnes 5y ago
  _O_ my god, _who_ cares?
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > The tech industry is strongly biased in the favor of white men That's debatable. CS was overwhelmingly male and wasn't prestigious until recently. > video games even more so I wonder how much of that we can attribute to DOOM. The DOOM devs wanted to make an hyper-violent game centered around Demon and heavy metal, and that reflected in the culture at id (not the violence). And they made a bunch of money which spurred copy-cats and got investors thinking game devs had to look like this to be profitable. > Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character or even more so, a non-conventionally attractive one gasp. Links?
  - Daishiman 5y ago
    > That's debatable. CS was overwhelmingly male and wasn't prestigious until recently. We're talking about the same career that's been known as a money-printing machine for the past 25 years?
    - slumdev 5y ago
      It's still not prestigious. Joe Average envies Bill Gates. Joe Average does not envy MS programmer #7413 who does device driver maintenance.
      - bifrost 5y ago
        Not entirely true, the "tax them to death" crowd in SF are very envious of "Tech Workers" who are largely programmers.
        908B64B197 5y ago
        If they could create value, they would. But instead they whine.
    - majormajor 5y ago
      > We're talking about the same career that's been known as a money-printing machine for the past 25 years? 20 years ago it was fairly frequently perceived as both very nerdy in an unpopular way and in imminent danger of being outsourced entirely. It's sad how many people who had to put up with bullying for their interests back then quickly became bullies themselves when they had the opportunity. Of all people, we should know better.
- omgitsabird 5y ago
  > considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago What?
  - madamelic 5y ago
    Look up what sparked Gamergate. It was largely based in men getting mad about women calling games out for being misogynistic. I am sure some was valid criticism. I am not really a fan of "every game must be progressive", etc. but the fact men got mad that women dared criticize video games should say a lot about the state of the video game industry. Not only that, but also, for a long time, video games just weren't marketed to girls at all. All video games catered to males and were specifically targeted as such. It's mainly the Wii, Nintendo DS and Switch that were a big on-ramps for women into mainstream gaming. Even now, many men assume "female gamer == Candy Crush" or some other weird idea. Or joke that if you are a woman on a video game that you _must_ be a trap.
    - fxtentacle 5y ago
      If I remember correctly, the gamergate controversy was about a female indie developer dating a male indie game journalist. I can imagine why that would make people search for conflicts of interests.
      - slg 5y ago
        This is like saying WWI was about the life of an Austrian royal. Yes, you might be technically right, but it grew so big and so many people were fighting for so many different reasons that the specific spark isn't that relevant.
      - bitwize 5y ago
        Gamergate was a harassment campaign organized against women in gaming. It was organized by men who were assmad that a female game developer released a game with a mental health theme rather than the usual focus on skill and violence favored by men, to critical acclaim. Her dating and sexual history were brought into it because that is a common tactic used by men to undermine women and discredit their achievements. Once again -- men got mad because a woman dared to release a game that didn't cater to their expectations or desires. That's Gamergate in a nutshell.
- badthingfactory 5y ago
  > That was in 2018... That's the _average_ person who is making a video game. The average person who was making a video game was upset at themselves for putting non-conventionally attractive females in the games they were making?
- 0x500x79 5y ago
  My lack of knowledge of the DFEH and other cases they have tackled are probably the reason for my question. The rebuke from Riot was more data driven in which they point out a few misleading claims from the DFEH: https://www.pcgamesn.com/riot-games-lawsuit-dfeh-response https://www.pcgamesn.com/riot-games-lawsuit-dfeh-response. Both Blizzard and Riot have a similar response stating that the DFEH is out of line, misrepresenting claims, or baseless. It either points to very bad SoCal video game company cultures or maybe there is some merit to the rebuttles. Maybe the real answer is somewhere in between. Crossing my fingers for widespread changes either way. The video game industry has a long-standing reputation for many other things besides just not being inclusive.
- blacktriangle 5y ago
  It's not about having female characters in games, that's never been a problem. It's about totally rewriting history to appease the modern woke sensibility that people were complaining about.
  - madamelic 5y ago
    I didn't get that vibe, but can definitely understand that. I actually disliked it at first until I realized I was being lumped in with people who had an agenda I didn't have ("Women didn't fight in wars! Women avatars should only be allowed to play Medic!") I mean, Battlefield has never really been about super serious war simulator, it has always had a goofy undertone. Battlefield has always been a little wacky. They had an offshoot game that was TF2 meets BF, everything cartoon-y. Then their _main line_ games for a few years involved a rogue group of US soldiers who blew stuff up, drove around in golf carts and had humorous lines. After that, they had a game that was cops-and-robbers meets BF. People who mix up ARMA and BF, and I don't say this to be mean, probably aren't real Battlfield fans. Battlefield has never _necessarily_ been about realism or pure historical accuracy. There has always been wacky tactics that aren't just purposefully put in but explicitly promoted by their trailers (see Zooking, Rendzooking and my favorite, loopzooking.) Like, yeah, I too was thrown off by the triple amputee woman in the trailer. It was a little weird, I thought / hoped they were going for a cyberpunk / time-traveling motif but nope. I am more than happy to discuss how DICE & EA has ruined Battlefield though, that much I do agree with and likely ties into poor marketing and PR.
    - crooked-v 5y ago
      You can see how they're going all-in on the 'wacky' part with the trailers for BF2042. Driving away from a tornado in a tuk-tuk, a knives vs defibrillators battle, etc.
      - madamelic 5y ago
        I am so excited for BF2042. I've had to remind myself a few times about not pre-ordering it. I hope, with the weather stuff and higher end hardware, they lean more into destructive environments. I am still kind of surprised they haven't and have been re-using the same destruction and relying on a single scripted large-scale destruction. I want to get that feeling of the first time using a grenade launcher to open up walls but even better. I guess it may be more about game design and keeping maps accessible rather than a technical limitation or a lack of desire on DICE's part.
- vmception 5y ago
  It is extremely possible that DFEH is either not the authority, ill equipped by the legislature to be the authority, and or bungled their own case, while it being simultaneously possible that the companies are problematic and that individuals are marginalized and hurt in a way unrelated to doing a good job
- johncessna 5y ago
  > Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character or even more so, a non-conventionally attractive one gasp. That was in 2018... That's the _average_ person who is making a video game. Mrs PacMan? Samus? Peach? That was all before 1988
  - dangerbird2 5y ago
    Samus isn't exactly a good example. The reward for winning Metroid is literally seeing her in a 8bit bikini
    - arthurcolle 5y ago
      Good times
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - stnmtn 5y ago
    Peach was and still is just a damsel in distress in any non-sports mario game. Samus is covered up entirely by armor, and when she's not she's in a skin-tight suit that shows off every single curve Mrs. Pacman... I'll give you that one.
    - mgkimsal 5y ago
      It's MS Pacman, IIRC. And... while they were shown having a kid together, I don't think any formal wedding ceremony was ever shown. Quite progressive for its day.
    - johncessna 5y ago
      Peach was one of 4 playable characters in Super Mario world 2, released in 1989. The Samus reveal in Metroid is notable for the exact opposite of what you stated. There were no curves or skin tight anything. This continued with Super Metroid.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago. ... In Saudi Arabia? > It's still common for men to talk down to women on video games, to the point where the overwhelming majority of women do not use voice comms or make their gender known. It's common for men to talk down to men on video games too ("talk down to" is a very mild phrasing). Turns out there are a lot of jerks who play video games, and for $reasons they tend to skew male (but we're still talking about a tiny minority of men; this isn't an indictment of men; the predictable "10% of m&ms are poisoned" rebuttal is inherently sexist, racist, etc). > Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character I'm not sure which game you're talking about, but I suspect you misunderstand the criticism. There have been thousands of female video game characters going back to the dawn of the industry. Many titles which prominently feature female characters have done very well (e.g.., Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy, etc). I'm guessing there has never been significant controversy because a video game featured a female character, though no doubt there has been controversy about specific characters (e.g., Battlefield 1's and Battlefield V's wildly disproportionate emphasis on female WWI and WWII combatants) or about the cringe deployment of token diversity characters. > biased in favor of white men There's not even good evidence that CS is biased in favor of white men. The only "evidence" is that the demographics skew toward white men, but that's almost certainly minimally related to bias in the field because 1. There are tons of Asians (male and female) in the field as well 2. Demographics remain relatively constant despite a much more welcoming environment and a decade-long push at all levels of the pipeline to incorporate more women and non-whites 3. Women achieved near gender parity in law and medicine without any similar concerted effort during a time when the fields were overtly hostile to them 4. The countries with the most gender equality have more stereotypical occupational demographics, including women in tech
  - madamelic 5y ago
    > 'm not sure which game you're talking about, but I suspect you misunderstand the criticism. There have been thousands of female video game characters going back to the dawn of the industry. Many titles which prominently feature female characters have done very well (e.g.., Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy, etc). I'm guessing there has never been significant controversy because a video game featured a female character, though no doubt there has been controversy about specific characters (e.g., Battlefield 1's and Battlefield V's wildly disproportionate emphasis on female WWI and WWII combatants) or about the cringe deployment of token diversity characters. My point is that there is any controversy when there is a game where the female main character is not explicitly sexualized. You are absolutely right that there are beloved female main characters, but they are almost always shown and viewed in a sexualized manner rather than as a human being. And yes, there are definitely 'sexualized' men (God of War) but they never seem to be explicitly in there as sexual objects rather than as part of the story. Like, if you took Lara Croft out and replaced her with a red square, would that game be regarded as the same? Probably not. People legit get mad about Aloy (Horizon Zero Dawn) being unattractive and "looking manly". Maybe not a massive controversy, but enough that I, someone who passively follows video game news, know about it. I agree thought that my original post was poorly worded and not specific enough about my perceived reception of female characters in video games. I was trying to incorporate "female main character" and "unattractive female characters" into one point and failed.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- himinlomax 5y ago
  > It's still common for men to talk down to women on video game I only play games where you can't tell anyone's sex (Starcraft 2 for instance) and you get insulted all the time. You get insulted when you're playing badly, you get insulted when you're playing too well, you get insulted whether you're a man, a woman or a dog.
  - foobarian 5y ago
    I tried playing Heroes of Newerth at some point, which was a DOTA clone with voice comms. Right in the first round I get told that I need to be raped and murdered by some punk. I didn't take it personally but that's a very bad onboarding experience and a good learning opportunity for game designers. It's also likely it's the type of game that attracts the more aggressive/testosterone driven player. Contrast that to say World of Warcraft or LOTRO where most people are very nice, and any ladies that come up on voice comms are treated with respect. This is just anecdata I guess.
  - ssully 5y ago
    That's general smack talk, which can be brutal, but is besides the original point. The bigger point is that if a woman's sex is revealed, say by using voice chat, then it is inevitable until they are harassed and insulted for being a woman and receive misogynistic insults. Do you understand why that is different from general insults?
    - pb7 5y ago
      It's not all that different, it's just extra ammunition. If they hear you are a male with a lisp or your voice sounds hispanic or black, they will attack that too. The gender part is just low hanging fruit but all of it is equally fucked up.
- howaboutnope 5y ago
  When was it ever not "socially acceptable" for women to play video games, what society is that referring to? edit: I'll assume this is about the US then. At any rate, my earliest memories of playing video games with female friends go back to the 1980s, and I don't recall a single moment where that wasn't "socially acceptable".
  - kbelder 5y ago
    Nah, it was never a problem in the US either.
- syshum 5y ago
  >>considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago. Ohh Please, I remember vividly playing my Grandmother in Sonic the Hedgehog on the original Sega Genesis many decades ago. That trope is just plain incorrect and a complete revisionist history
- vagrantJin 5y ago
  Since anecdotes and all > The tech industry is strongly biased in the favor of white men Who cares? I'm a black man, have been gaming since 6 years old, and never once in my circle of friends or family questioned silly things like potential political implications of 3D cartoons that I can manipulate. If I want a black, yoked mofo with a giant sword and a colourful pony sidekick with a red peacock feather in a video game - I know what I have to do. Start my own gaming company to build games to do just that. > It's still common for men to talk down to women on video games, to the point where the overwhelming... Ofcourse, it's video games not nobel prizes, not civil engineering projects, not...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- asdswe 5y ago
  Based on my observations the vast majority of "men" talking down girls in video games are teenager boys, most of whom eventually grow up and stop doing that. Admittedly some never grow up, perhaps they're more likely to be heavy gamers and even become game devs? Anyway, I think any spaces dominated by teenagers will always be pretty toxic places, no matter if we're talking about schools or gaming servers. I have no idea what could be done about it, other than proper supervision by staff or server moderators.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  > considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago. It should be mentioned that this was different from the usual exclusion of women. Women were mostly discriminated from outside the group of those playing games.
ev1 5y ago
> I do find it interesting that the DFEH has lawsuits against both Riot Games and Blizzard for similar issues Yes, because Riot's C-level executive was literally dry humping interns and shoving their ass into faces and still has their job? Clearly "visibility" has not worked past creating PR articles. Does DFEH have the same problem with any other major game studio there that isn't embroiled in this type of behaviour? I've played League before. The player base is ludicrously, absurdly toxic, and if they are hiring anything from there, then, well... Sexism: [2018] https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483 https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-game... [2018] https://twitter.com/MiniWhiteRabbit/status/1026923233281421312 https://twitter.com/MiniWhiteRabbit/status/10269232332814213... [2019] https://www.vice.com/en/article/evyz7p/over-100-riot-games-employees-walked-out-today-to-end-forced-arbitration https://www.vice.com/en/article/evyz7p/over-100-riot-games-e... COO specific: https://www.businessinsider.com/riot-games-suspends-coo-scott-gelb-bro-culture-2018-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/riot-games-suspends-coo-scot... - tbh just google riot games farting CEO specific: [Feb 2021] https://www.wired.com/story/riot-games-ceo-culture-complaints/ https://www.wired.com/story/riot-games-ceo-culture-complaint... [Mar 2021] https://www.dailyesports.gg/alienware-has-terminated-its-sponsorship-contract-with-riot-games-following-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-riot-games-ceo-nicolo-laurent-and-the-developers-public-image-according-to-dot-esport/ https://www.dailyesports.gg/alienware-has-terminated-its-spo...
- 0x500x79 5y ago
  DFEH is a California entity, so I don't think it's fair to talk about all other major game studios. Most of the articles you posted are all stemmed from the same start: The Kotaku article. The wired article is from the same author noting that COO was not fired (and other employees that are employed by CEO have had complaints). It looks like EA is based in LA and isn't under investigation by the DFEH, but Riot and Activision/Blizzard are two of the biggest game studios in CA, right? Yes, the C-level executive that dry-humped employees, "ball-tapped" employees, and any other inappropriate behavior should be removed... but that actually isn't included in the DFEH lawsuit, IIRC.
  - ttyS1 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
username90 5y ago
Activision Blizzard stock dropped 8% today, this is much larger than what happened at Riot.
somehnacct3757 5y ago
The industry is broken. Self-identifying gamers are one of the most toxic online communities long preyed on by groups like pick-up artists and men's rights activists. The games targeting this group of self-identifying gamers have overindexed on machismo for decades. Every problem can be solved with violence and the reward is fame, money, and women. Why is there Overwatch porn and not Candy Crush porn? For marketers these gamers are fish in a barrel. Game companies who make games for this audience rely on this audience as their talent pool because no one else will build these games on absurd timelines at great cost to every other aspect of their life. They are in effect paid in 'cool points' which matter only to those already hazed or yet-to-be-hazed.
- ev1 5y ago
  As a counterpoint to this, Among Us and Roblox porn exists and is quite heavily viewed.

madamelic 5y ago

> is the DFEH out of line, or is the industry just that broken? No chance DEFH is out of line. The tech industry is strongly biased in the favor of white men in my opinion and video games even more so, considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago. It's still common for men to talk down to women on video games, to the point where the overwhelming majority of women do not use voice comms or make their gender known. Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character or even more so, a non-conventionally attractive one gasp. That was in 2018... That's the _average_ person who is making a video game.

oceanghost 5y ago
Please don't conflate "white men" with these assholes. I'm so tired of being blamed for the behavior of folks with the same genitalia/skin color as me.
- soverycool 5y ago
  It's acceptable racism for this person to say something so abhorrent.
  - madamelic 5y ago
    I mean, I could've probably left "white" out and it would've been just as accurate. I do apologize for my "shoot from the hip" and should've been less specific about "white men" vs "men". I can't be totally sure of a racist undertone in tech since I am white. I don't know _for sure_ if PoC men feel the same discrimination.
    - soverycool 5y ago
      Yes, I know you're full of sexist, racist opinions you want to share with us all.
- t-writescode 5y ago
  I believe the common response here to this sort of comment is "yes, not all men, but too many men", and that it's the responsibility of men to call out the men they see being that kind of deplorable on their actions, to reduce the frequency of those men.
  - ballenf 5y ago
    It still feels so strange to me to criticize an entire race or gender lump for a perceived trait of that group (here, the trait of not calling out sexism enough).
  - ahtihn 5y ago
    Yeah no, it's not the responsibility of men that do nothing wrong to call out other men. If you said that it's the respinsibility of all black people to call out black criminals for their bad behavior, you'd rightfully get called a racist. I don't see how this is different.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    But that's a patently sexist retort. Peter and Sue are equally responsible for Ron's abhorrent behavior.
  - RHSeeger 5y ago
    Shaming all men for what a (bad) subset of men do is sexist. Shaming all white men for what a (bad) subset of white men do is sexist and racist. Shaming all black men because some black men are criminals is racist. Highlighting that the (good) majority should call out the (bad) minority is reasonable. Blaming the whole is not. It's true regardless of the target race, or sex, or gender, etc.
    - pengstrom 5y ago
      "Men" is both a social and biological differentiator. They are the only ones with power to stop this if they want to. We can play philosophy but reality is what it is. Sexism continues because men look the other way, not because women endure it.
kook_throwaway 5y ago
>It's still common for men to talk down to women on video games, to the point where the overwhelming majority of women do not use voice comms or make their gender known. Gamers talk down to everyone on video games and have since they have been invented. This sounds like a new group of people entering an existing space and not understanding the dynamic (namely incessant shittalking). I can't even count how many strangers have not so kindly informed me of their sexual adventures with my parents. Am I missing something here?
- mchanson 5y ago
  yes.
  - blacktriangle 5y ago
    He really isn't.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- adamrezich 5y ago
  yeah, you're missing the potential on-paper profits to be made from making video games more accessible to a wider audience by sanitizing them and their communities. whether this change is is a good idea in the long run or not can be debated, but that's where the last decade or so of rhetoric against "toxic gamer culture" is coming from, regardless of what is said. could any of the downvoters please tell me how I'm wrong?
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Having been a gamer for over 30 years now I can assure you that "toxic gamer culture" is very much a thing. You think swatting people is something a healthy culture of good-natured ribbing does?
    - adamrezich 5y ago
bin_bash 5y ago
> Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character or even more so, a non-conventionally attractive one gasp. That was in 2018... That's the _average_ person who is making a video game. What game are you referring to?
- imbnwa 5y ago
  The Last of Us Part II I presume
  - edoceo 5y ago
    Wild! Heres a summary https://collider.com/last-of-us-2-controversy-explained/ https://collider.com/last-of-us-2-controversy-explained/
    - imbnwa 5y ago
      Though I was misattributed the subject of the controversy, I'd like to use this comment to say that TLOU2 is the greatest game I've ever played.
      - the_doctah 5y ago
        It really does earn that Metacritic score, doesn't it? Almost a perfect game in every way. No plot holes, no silly characterization, totally fun game from start to finish.
  - username90 5y ago
    It is about battlefield 5, the last of us was last year. More specifically people didn't like the depiction of world war 2 in this trailer: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ZpQadiyqs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a7ZpQadiyqs
    - imbnwa 5y ago
      Thank you for the correction
fidesomnes 5y ago
_O_ my god, _who_ cares?
908B64B197 5y ago
> The tech industry is strongly biased in the favor of white men That's debatable. CS was overwhelmingly male and wasn't prestigious until recently. > video games even more so I wonder how much of that we can attribute to DOOM. The DOOM devs wanted to make an hyper-violent game centered around Demon and heavy metal, and that reflected in the culture at id (not the violence). And they made a bunch of money which spurred copy-cats and got investors thinking game devs had to look like this to be profitable. > Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character or even more so, a non-conventionally attractive one gasp. Links?
- Daishiman 5y ago
  > That's debatable. CS was overwhelmingly male and wasn't prestigious until recently. We're talking about the same career that's been known as a money-printing machine for the past 25 years?
  - slumdev 5y ago
    It's still not prestigious. Joe Average envies Bill Gates. Joe Average does not envy MS programmer #7413 who does device driver maintenance.
    - bifrost 5y ago
      Not entirely true, the "tax them to death" crowd in SF are very envious of "Tech Workers" who are largely programmers.
      - 908B64B197 5y ago
        If they could create value, they would. But instead they whine.
  - majormajor 5y ago
    > We're talking about the same career that's been known as a money-printing machine for the past 25 years? 20 years ago it was fairly frequently perceived as both very nerdy in an unpopular way and in imminent danger of being outsourced entirely. It's sad how many people who had to put up with bullying for their interests back then quickly became bullies themselves when they had the opportunity. Of all people, we should know better.
omgitsabird 5y ago
> considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago What?
- madamelic 5y ago
  Look up what sparked Gamergate. It was largely based in men getting mad about women calling games out for being misogynistic. I am sure some was valid criticism. I am not really a fan of "every game must be progressive", etc. but the fact men got mad that women dared criticize video games should say a lot about the state of the video game industry. Not only that, but also, for a long time, video games just weren't marketed to girls at all. All video games catered to males and were specifically targeted as such. It's mainly the Wii, Nintendo DS and Switch that were a big on-ramps for women into mainstream gaming. Even now, many men assume "female gamer == Candy Crush" or some other weird idea. Or joke that if you are a woman on a video game that you _must_ be a trap.
  - fxtentacle 5y ago
    If I remember correctly, the gamergate controversy was about a female indie developer dating a male indie game journalist. I can imagine why that would make people search for conflicts of interests.
    - slg 5y ago
      This is like saying WWI was about the life of an Austrian royal. Yes, you might be technically right, but it grew so big and so many people were fighting for so many different reasons that the specific spark isn't that relevant.
    - bitwize 5y ago
      Gamergate was a harassment campaign organized against women in gaming. It was organized by men who were assmad that a female game developer released a game with a mental health theme rather than the usual focus on skill and violence favored by men, to critical acclaim. Her dating and sexual history were brought into it because that is a common tactic used by men to undermine women and discredit their achievements. Once again -- men got mad because a woman dared to release a game that didn't cater to their expectations or desires. That's Gamergate in a nutshell.
badthingfactory 5y ago
> That was in 2018... That's the _average_ person who is making a video game. The average person who was making a video game was upset at themselves for putting non-conventionally attractive females in the games they were making?
0x500x79 5y ago
My lack of knowledge of the DFEH and other cases they have tackled are probably the reason for my question. The rebuke from Riot was more data driven in which they point out a few misleading claims from the DFEH: https://www.pcgamesn.com/riot-games-lawsuit-dfeh-response https://www.pcgamesn.com/riot-games-lawsuit-dfeh-response. Both Blizzard and Riot have a similar response stating that the DFEH is out of line, misrepresenting claims, or baseless. It either points to very bad SoCal video game company cultures or maybe there is some merit to the rebuttles. Maybe the real answer is somewhere in between. Crossing my fingers for widespread changes either way. The video game industry has a long-standing reputation for many other things besides just not being inclusive.
blacktriangle 5y ago
It's not about having female characters in games, that's never been a problem. It's about totally rewriting history to appease the modern woke sensibility that people were complaining about.
- madamelic 5y ago
  I didn't get that vibe, but can definitely understand that. I actually disliked it at first until I realized I was being lumped in with people who had an agenda I didn't have ("Women didn't fight in wars! Women avatars should only be allowed to play Medic!") I mean, Battlefield has never really been about super serious war simulator, it has always had a goofy undertone. Battlefield has always been a little wacky. They had an offshoot game that was TF2 meets BF, everything cartoon-y. Then their _main line_ games for a few years involved a rogue group of US soldiers who blew stuff up, drove around in golf carts and had humorous lines. After that, they had a game that was cops-and-robbers meets BF. People who mix up ARMA and BF, and I don't say this to be mean, probably aren't real Battlfield fans. Battlefield has never _necessarily_ been about realism or pure historical accuracy. There has always been wacky tactics that aren't just purposefully put in but explicitly promoted by their trailers (see Zooking, Rendzooking and my favorite, loopzooking.) Like, yeah, I too was thrown off by the triple amputee woman in the trailer. It was a little weird, I thought / hoped they were going for a cyberpunk / time-traveling motif but nope. I am more than happy to discuss how DICE & EA has ruined Battlefield though, that much I do agree with and likely ties into poor marketing and PR.
  - crooked-v 5y ago
    You can see how they're going all-in on the 'wacky' part with the trailers for BF2042. Driving away from a tornado in a tuk-tuk, a knives vs defibrillators battle, etc.
    - madamelic 5y ago
      I am so excited for BF2042. I've had to remind myself a few times about not pre-ordering it. I hope, with the weather stuff and higher end hardware, they lean more into destructive environments. I am still kind of surprised they haven't and have been re-using the same destruction and relying on a single scripted large-scale destruction. I want to get that feeling of the first time using a grenade launcher to open up walls but even better. I guess it may be more about game design and keeping maps accessible rather than a technical limitation or a lack of desire on DICE's part.
vmception 5y ago
It is extremely possible that DFEH is either not the authority, ill equipped by the legislature to be the authority, and or bungled their own case, while it being simultaneously possible that the companies are problematic and that individuals are marginalized and hurt in a way unrelated to doing a good job
johncessna 5y ago
> Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character or even more so, a non-conventionally attractive one gasp. That was in 2018... That's the _average_ person who is making a video game. Mrs PacMan? Samus? Peach? That was all before 1988
- dangerbird2 5y ago
  Samus isn't exactly a good example. The reward for winning Metroid is literally seeing her in a 8bit bikini
  - arthurcolle 5y ago
    Good times
  - deleted 5y ago
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- stnmtn 5y ago
  Peach was and still is just a damsel in distress in any non-sports mario game. Samus is covered up entirely by armor, and when she's not she's in a skin-tight suit that shows off every single curve Mrs. Pacman... I'll give you that one.
  - mgkimsal 5y ago
    It's MS Pacman, IIRC. And... while they were shown having a kid together, I don't think any formal wedding ceremony was ever shown. Quite progressive for its day.
  - johncessna 5y ago
    Peach was one of 4 playable characters in Super Mario world 2, released in 1989. The Samus reveal in Metroid is notable for the exact opposite of what you stated. There were no curves or skin tight anything. This continued with Super Metroid.
throwaway894345 5y ago
> considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago. ... In Saudi Arabia? > It's still common for men to talk down to women on video games, to the point where the overwhelming majority of women do not use voice comms or make their gender known. It's common for men to talk down to men on video games too ("talk down to" is a very mild phrasing). Turns out there are a lot of jerks who play video games, and for $reasons they tend to skew male (but we're still talking about a tiny minority of men; this isn't an indictment of men; the predictable "10% of m&ms are poisoned" rebuttal is inherently sexist, racist, etc). > Think about all those men complaining that a video game _dared_ have a female character I'm not sure which game you're talking about, but I suspect you misunderstand the criticism. There have been thousands of female video game characters going back to the dawn of the industry. Many titles which prominently feature female characters have done very well (e.g.., Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy, etc). I'm guessing there has never been significant controversy because a video game featured a female character, though no doubt there has been controversy about specific characters (e.g., Battlefield 1's and Battlefield V's wildly disproportionate emphasis on female WWI and WWII combatants) or about the cringe deployment of token diversity characters. > biased in favor of white men There's not even good evidence that CS is biased in favor of white men. The only "evidence" is that the demographics skew toward white men, but that's almost certainly minimally related to bias in the field because 1. There are tons of Asians (male and female) in the field as well 2. Demographics remain relatively constant despite a much more welcoming environment and a decade-long push at all levels of the pipeline to incorporate more women and non-whites 3. Women achieved near gender parity in law and medicine without any similar concerted effort during a time when the fields were overtly hostile to them 4. The countries with the most gender equality have more stereotypical occupational demographics, including women in tech
- madamelic 5y ago
  > 'm not sure which game you're talking about, but I suspect you misunderstand the criticism. There have been thousands of female video game characters going back to the dawn of the industry. Many titles which prominently feature female characters have done very well (e.g.., Tomb Raider, Final Fantasy, etc). I'm guessing there has never been significant controversy because a video game featured a female character, though no doubt there has been controversy about specific characters (e.g., Battlefield 1's and Battlefield V's wildly disproportionate emphasis on female WWI and WWII combatants) or about the cringe deployment of token diversity characters. My point is that there is any controversy when there is a game where the female main character is not explicitly sexualized. You are absolutely right that there are beloved female main characters, but they are almost always shown and viewed in a sexualized manner rather than as a human being. And yes, there are definitely 'sexualized' men (God of War) but they never seem to be explicitly in there as sexual objects rather than as part of the story. Like, if you took Lara Croft out and replaced her with a red square, would that game be regarded as the same? Probably not. People legit get mad about Aloy (Horizon Zero Dawn) being unattractive and "looking manly". Maybe not a massive controversy, but enough that I, someone who passively follows video game news, know about it. I agree thought that my original post was poorly worded and not specific enough about my perceived reception of female characters in video games. I was trying to incorporate "female main character" and "unattractive female characters" into one point and failed.
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himinlomax 5y ago
> It's still common for men to talk down to women on video game I only play games where you can't tell anyone's sex (Starcraft 2 for instance) and you get insulted all the time. You get insulted when you're playing badly, you get insulted when you're playing too well, you get insulted whether you're a man, a woman or a dog.
- foobarian 5y ago
  I tried playing Heroes of Newerth at some point, which was a DOTA clone with voice comms. Right in the first round I get told that I need to be raped and murdered by some punk. I didn't take it personally but that's a very bad onboarding experience and a good learning opportunity for game designers. It's also likely it's the type of game that attracts the more aggressive/testosterone driven player. Contrast that to say World of Warcraft or LOTRO where most people are very nice, and any ladies that come up on voice comms are treated with respect. This is just anecdata I guess.
- ssully 5y ago
  That's general smack talk, which can be brutal, but is besides the original point. The bigger point is that if a woman's sex is revealed, say by using voice chat, then it is inevitable until they are harassed and insulted for being a woman and receive misogynistic insults. Do you understand why that is different from general insults?
  - pb7 5y ago
    It's not all that different, it's just extra ammunition. If they hear you are a male with a lisp or your voice sounds hispanic or black, they will attack that too. The gender part is just low hanging fruit but all of it is equally fucked up.
howaboutnope 5y ago
When was it ever not "socially acceptable" for women to play video games, what society is that referring to? edit: I'll assume this is about the US then. At any rate, my earliest memories of playing video games with female friends go back to the 1980s, and I don't recall a single moment where that wasn't "socially acceptable".
- kbelder 5y ago
  Nah, it was never a problem in the US either.
syshum 5y ago
>>considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago. Ohh Please, I remember vividly playing my Grandmother in Sonic the Hedgehog on the original Sega Genesis many decades ago. That trope is just plain incorrect and a complete revisionist history
vagrantJin 5y ago
Since anecdotes and all > The tech industry is strongly biased in the favor of white men Who cares? I'm a black man, have been gaming since 6 years old, and never once in my circle of friends or family questioned silly things like potential political implications of 3D cartoons that I can manipulate. If I want a black, yoked mofo with a giant sword and a colourful pony sidekick with a red peacock feather in a video game - I know what I have to do. Start my own gaming company to build games to do just that. > It's still common for men to talk down to women on video games, to the point where the overwhelming... Ofcourse, it's video games not nobel prizes, not civil engineering projects, not...
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asdswe 5y ago
Based on my observations the vast majority of "men" talking down girls in video games are teenager boys, most of whom eventually grow up and stop doing that. Admittedly some never grow up, perhaps they're more likely to be heavy gamers and even become game devs? Anyway, I think any spaces dominated by teenagers will always be pretty toxic places, no matter if we're talking about schools or gaming servers. I have no idea what could be done about it, other than proper supervision by staff or server moderators.
raxxorrax 5y ago
> considering women playing video games only became socially acceptable a few years ago. It should be mentioned that this was different from the usual exclusion of women. Women were mostly discriminated from outside the group of those playing games.

ev1 5y ago

> I do find it interesting that the DFEH has lawsuits against both Riot Games and Blizzard for similar issues Yes, because Riot's C-level executive was literally dry humping interns and shoving their ass into faces and still has their job? Clearly "visibility" has not worked past creating PR articles. Does DFEH have the same problem with any other major game studio there that isn't embroiled in this type of behaviour? I've played League before. The player base is ludicrously, absurdly toxic, and if they are hiring anything from there, then, well... Sexism: [2018] https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-games-1828165483 https://kotaku.com/inside-the-culture-of-sexism-at-riot-game... [2018] https://twitter.com/MiniWhiteRabbit/status/1026923233281421312 https://twitter.com/MiniWhiteRabbit/status/10269232332814213... [2019] https://www.vice.com/en/article/evyz7p/over-100-riot-games-employees-walked-out-today-to-end-forced-arbitration https://www.vice.com/en/article/evyz7p/over-100-riot-games-e... COO specific: https://www.businessinsider.com/riot-games-suspends-coo-scott-gelb-bro-culture-2018-12 https://www.businessinsider.com/riot-games-suspends-coo-scot... - tbh just google riot games farting CEO specific: [Feb 2021] https://www.wired.com/story/riot-games-ceo-culture-complaints/ https://www.wired.com/story/riot-games-ceo-culture-complaint... [Mar 2021] https://www.dailyesports.gg/alienware-has-terminated-its-sponsorship-contract-with-riot-games-following-sexual-harassment-allegations-against-riot-games-ceo-nicolo-laurent-and-the-developers-public-image-according-to-dot-esport/ https://www.dailyesports.gg/alienware-has-terminated-its-spo...

0x500x79 5y ago
DFEH is a California entity, so I don't think it's fair to talk about all other major game studios. Most of the articles you posted are all stemmed from the same start: The Kotaku article. The wired article is from the same author noting that COO was not fired (and other employees that are employed by CEO have had complaints). It looks like EA is based in LA and isn't under investigation by the DFEH, but Riot and Activision/Blizzard are two of the biggest game studios in CA, right? Yes, the C-level executive that dry-humped employees, "ball-tapped" employees, and any other inappropriate behavior should be removed... but that actually isn't included in the DFEH lawsuit, IIRC.
- ttyS1 5y ago

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username90 5y ago

Activision Blizzard stock dropped 8% today, this is much larger than what happened at Riot.

somehnacct3757 5y ago

The industry is broken. Self-identifying gamers are one of the most toxic online communities long preyed on by groups like pick-up artists and men's rights activists. The games targeting this group of self-identifying gamers have overindexed on machismo for decades. Every problem can be solved with violence and the reward is fame, money, and women. Why is there Overwatch porn and not Candy Crush porn? For marketers these gamers are fish in a barrel. Game companies who make games for this audience rely on this audience as their talent pool because no one else will build these games on absurd timelines at great cost to every other aspect of their life. They are in effect paid in 'cool points' which matter only to those already hazed or yet-to-be-hazed.

ev1 5y ago
As a counterpoint to this, Among Us and Roblox porn exists and is quite heavily viewed.