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Just to put it on the record because so many people seem to be getting this wrong. Telsa's connector was not first, but its power delivery capabilities were bet

Just to put it on the record because so many people seem to be getting this wrong. Telsa's connector was not first, but its power delivery capabilities were better at the time. The Roadster (2008) used a different connector than the Model S (2012) and is completely incompatible. JS1772 (2009) was already being adopted as a standard by cars like the Nissan Leaf (2010) before Tesla's current connector was being used. Tesla's Supercharger network at the launch of the Model S was a total of 6 chargers: https://web.archive.org/web/20121124081536/http://www.teslamotors.com/supercharger https://web.archive.org/web/20121124081536/http://www.teslam... . So the initial infrastructure investment was not that significant. Further reading into that article though you can see the Superchargers were capable of delivering 90kW. JS1772 cars were limited to ~20kW L2 charging at the time which is why Chademo (2010-ish) connectors were included for faster charging on earlier EVs. CCS (2013) would become the unifying replacement that added faster charging to JS1772. More on topic, the rest of the industry and world has moved on and standardized to CCS. No one should start using Tesla's connector on their cars now. But making an adapter to use Tesla chargers on a CCS car could make sense. But having yet another thing to lug around in the car won't be ideal. The obvious logical choice is for Tesla to start retrofitting Superchargers with CCS now that it's open and eventually ween Tesla owners into using adapters that Tesla already makes.

rattray 5y ago
How much power can today's CCS and Tesla chargers deliver?
- shmoe 5y ago
  Tesla is currently at 250kw with the v3 superchargers, but it's been said they can handle more and are about to be software upgraded to 300kw. A v2 supercharger is capable of 150kw. Electrify America's are supposedly capable of 350kw but there isn't really an EV in existence yet that can hit it.
  - AYBABTME 5y ago
    Can't the Ioniq 5 take 350KW? The car can be purchased today in Korea, I see many in the roads. Coming to the US in the falls.
    - theluketaylor 5y ago
      Ionic 5 peaks at about 230 kW. Getting that much power in does require using high voltage, like the 350 kW EA cabinets.
      - AYBABTME 5y ago
        The problem probably lies not with the car's capabilities but the charger not providing 800V?
        theluketaylor 5y ago
        EA and Ionity chargers are capable of up to 1000V. It’s a question of battery size. You can only safely stuff so much power into each cell along with cooling limitations. 230 kW is nothing to sneeze at and ionic 5 sustains >200 kW longer than model 3
        shmoe 5y ago
        .. yet the model 3 still charges faster due to the efficiencies of a smaller pack.
  - thebooktocome 5y ago
    The Porsche Taycan does hit 350kw, assuming the battery is preconditioned. I charged one at an EA station last month.
    - theluketaylor 5y ago
      Taycan max is 270 kW. It does require using the 350 kW cabinet, but it can't max it out.
      - thebooktocome 5y ago
        Huh. The GUI must have lied to me. Annoying.
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - Symbiote 5y ago
    Searching for electric bus chargers shows several in use in Europe at 300-500kW.
    - shmoe 5y ago
      Fair enough, I was considering personal transit. These are like the equivalent of the "megacharger" that's coming for the Tesla Semi.
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        Right, and Tesla does charge their Semi prototypes with an adapter that uses a few Supercharger plugs at once.
        shmoe 5y ago
        Yup.. I think its up to like 3-4 stalls' connectors used now.. crazy :)
        Robotbeat 5y ago
        Kind of makes sense, actually. They already mass produce the stalls and the Supercharger network already exists. A Megawatt-level plug would be pretty hefty, but just using multiple Supercharger plugs is straightforward.
        shmoe 5y ago
        I still see them placing dedicated megachargers along the pilot routes for the companies that are taking delivery initially as well as at their distribution locations, as they sell even more consumer Tesla's it won't be cool to have trucks taking up half the stalls for sure, but in the beginning no problem.
- vel0city 5y ago
  CCS can deliver 350kW. Tesla Superchargers are currently 250kW. There are rumors about a higher output connection for the semi trucks but it is unsure if that would be a different connector or not.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
Tesla has invested over $600 million in their Supercharger network globally [1], and should be compensated if legacy automakers want access to it for their customers. If they don't desire access to it, they can foot the bill themselves. No sense in giving a free ride to apathetic automakers who had to be dragged to build EVs. If governments want to cut a check to open up access, compensating Tesla for their capex costs, that's fine too. [1] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map
- bildung 5y ago
  I think the market forces point in the opposite direction. With the big regions EU and China having standardized charging, they each created a market for different open charging networks to compete in. In e.g. Germany Teslas are <10% of the new EVs sold YTD, I doubt it would make much sense for Tesla trying to maintain a Tesla-only network there, as they have to support the standardized connector and communication protocol anyway. They can only gain by opening up their charging network there.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - nickik 5y ago
    China is far more un-standardized then the US. In the US you have Tesla and CCS. CHAdeMO still exists but it will vanish soon, as almost no new car uses it.
- ecopoesis 5y ago
  VW has invested $2 billion in Electrify America [1]. With every manufacturer accelerating their EV rollouts, there will soon be more CCS EVSEs than superchargers. This move isn't about giving non-Teslas access to superchargers, it's about giving Teslas access to what very soon will be the majority of EVSEs. It also about tax incentives: the government isn't going to support a proprietary standard. [1] https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan/
websites2023 5y ago
> The obvious logical choice is for Tesla to start retrofitting Superchargers with CCS now that it's open and eventually ween Tesla owners into using adapters that Tesla already makes. I disagree. I already use an adapter for L2 charging, on the rare occasion that I am at one place long enough for it to be worth it (work). I use the super chargers almost exclusively. I don’t want to use an adapter, that’s a poor experience. If others want to use the network, let them adapt.
- theluketaylor 5y ago
  Tesla missed their chance with Model 3. EU regs forced them to support CCS in 2017. Existing Model S owners got a small adaptor and European Model 3 has always been native CCS. The supercharger cabinets have both tesla and CCS connectors. Tesla could have done the same thing in north america and chose not to.
- AkBKukU 5y ago
  I should have clarified that new Telsas should use CCS and existing Tesla owners would "eventually" need to use an adapter. That's the weening I was talking about. Start adding CSS to all the Superchargers. Once a significant build out is completely start selling new Teslas with CSS and an adapter for any older Superchargers that don't get retrofitted. 2-5yrs later new chargers can only have CCS. The burden of the adapter being put on the larger market is just not going to happen. If Tesla wants to stay relevant as more automakers enter the EV market they need to adapt.
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  I mostly agree with you. One of the best results of Tesla opening up its supercharger network would be encouraging other EV providers to use the much better Tesla style plug and everyone ending up standardizing on it. but I just don’t think that’ll happen.
Robotbeat 5y ago
The Tesla adapter is superior in almost every way to CCS. IMHO, everyone should use it. The CCS plug, particularly the US variant, is considerably worse from a usability perspective. (It’s also more complicated and heavy and therefore more expensive to make.) Standardizing on the US CCS plug would be a mistake that would cement a disadvantage for EVs. If we’re going to insist on a standard plug, I’d prefer the Tesla plug but even the European CCS plug wouldn’t be so bad. Look at the size difference, and tell me that lifting a much heavier plug won’t have a usability impact especially for people with a small frame or physical disability.
- edent 5y ago
  I'm not sure I understand that. The Tesla plug is 5 pin - as is CCS. In terms of usability, CCS just plugs in. I've not used a Tesla plug, but I'm curious as to how that could be cheaper. CCS doesn't weigh that much - it's a plastic shell around metal pins. The cable weighs a fair bit - but isn't that the same of any rugged cable?
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    It’s cheaper because it’s much smaller and topologically simpler. CCS is built like a gas nozzle with a separate handle and trigger. Tesla plug is just a smooth plug.
    - tw04 5y ago
      It also seems to frequently get stuck... I've yet to hear that happening with CCS. Lighter but less reliable != better: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/supercharger-cable-stuck.227153/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/supercharger-cable-s...
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        “Frequently”? No. Also, all fast charging plugs have an electronic interlock, and it’s for safety reasons (to prevent flash from a manual disconnect in the middle of charging). So the problem you describe happens for other vehicles occasionally, like eTron and i3 (after a quick google). Tesla vehicles are MUCH more common in the US and have had access to much better fast charging for a lot longer, so you’re a victim of sample bias.
Dunedan 5y ago
> The obvious logical choice is for Tesla to start retrofitting Superchargers with CCS now that it's open and eventually ween Tesla owners into using adapters that Tesla already makes. European superchargers already offer CCS ports. Tesla started adding them in 2018 for their Model 3, which also features CCS (at least in Europe). > All V2 Superchargers in Europe feature dual-cable posts to accommodate both DC Type 2 and CCS Combo 2 charge-ports. European V3 Superchargers feature single-cable CCS technology, which are directly compatible with all Model 3 vehicles. Model S and Model X vehicles in region can access V3 Superchargers with a CCS Combo 2 adapter. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharging https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharging And here is another post from 2018 showing one of the first pictures of a supercharger with CCS: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-dual-charge-ccs-upgrade-model-3-europe-rollout/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-dual-charge-ccs...

rattray 5y ago

How much power can today's CCS and Tesla chargers deliver?

shmoe 5y ago
Tesla is currently at 250kw with the v3 superchargers, but it's been said they can handle more and are about to be software upgraded to 300kw. A v2 supercharger is capable of 150kw. Electrify America's are supposedly capable of 350kw but there isn't really an EV in existence yet that can hit it.
- AYBABTME 5y ago
  Can't the Ioniq 5 take 350KW? The car can be purchased today in Korea, I see many in the roads. Coming to the US in the falls.
  - theluketaylor 5y ago
    Ionic 5 peaks at about 230 kW. Getting that much power in does require using high voltage, like the 350 kW EA cabinets.
    - AYBABTME 5y ago
      The problem probably lies not with the car's capabilities but the charger not providing 800V?
      - theluketaylor 5y ago
        EA and Ionity chargers are capable of up to 1000V. It’s a question of battery size. You can only safely stuff so much power into each cell along with cooling limitations. 230 kW is nothing to sneeze at and ionic 5 sustains >200 kW longer than model 3
        shmoe 5y ago
        .. yet the model 3 still charges faster due to the efficiencies of a smaller pack.
- thebooktocome 5y ago
  The Porsche Taycan does hit 350kw, assuming the battery is preconditioned. I charged one at an EA station last month.
  - theluketaylor 5y ago
    Taycan max is 270 kW. It does require using the 350 kW cabinet, but it can't max it out.
    - thebooktocome 5y ago
      Huh. The GUI must have lied to me. Annoying.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- Symbiote 5y ago
  Searching for electric bus chargers shows several in use in Europe at 300-500kW.
  - shmoe 5y ago
    Fair enough, I was considering personal transit. These are like the equivalent of the "megacharger" that's coming for the Tesla Semi.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      Right, and Tesla does charge their Semi prototypes with an adapter that uses a few Supercharger plugs at once.
      - shmoe 5y ago
        Yup.. I think its up to like 3-4 stalls' connectors used now.. crazy :)
        Robotbeat 5y ago
        Kind of makes sense, actually. They already mass produce the stalls and the Supercharger network already exists. A Megawatt-level plug would be pretty hefty, but just using multiple Supercharger plugs is straightforward.
        shmoe 5y ago
        I still see them placing dedicated megachargers along the pilot routes for the companies that are taking delivery initially as well as at their distribution locations, as they sell even more consumer Tesla's it won't be cool to have trucks taking up half the stalls for sure, but in the beginning no problem.
vel0city 5y ago
CCS can deliver 350kW. Tesla Superchargers are currently 250kW. There are rumors about a higher output connection for the semi trucks but it is unsure if that would be a different connector or not.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

Tesla has invested over $600 million in their Supercharger network globally [1], and should be compensated if legacy automakers want access to it for their customers. If they don't desire access to it, they can foot the bill themselves. No sense in giving a free ride to apathetic automakers who had to be dragged to build EVs. If governments want to cut a check to open up access, compensating Tesla for their capex costs, that's fine too. [1] https://supercharge.info/map https://supercharge.info/map

bildung 5y ago
I think the market forces point in the opposite direction. With the big regions EU and China having standardized charging, they each created a market for different open charging networks to compete in. In e.g. Germany Teslas are <10% of the new EVs sold YTD, I doubt it would make much sense for Tesla trying to maintain a Tesla-only network there, as they have to support the standardized connector and communication protocol anyway. They can only gain by opening up their charging network there.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- nickik 5y ago
  China is far more un-standardized then the US. In the US you have Tesla and CCS. CHAdeMO still exists but it will vanish soon, as almost no new car uses it.
ecopoesis 5y ago
VW has invested $2 billion in Electrify America [1]. With every manufacturer accelerating their EV rollouts, there will soon be more CCS EVSEs than superchargers. This move isn't about giving non-Teslas access to superchargers, it's about giving Teslas access to what very soon will be the majority of EVSEs. It also about tax incentives: the government isn't going to support a proprietary standard. [1] https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan/ https://www.electrifyamerica.com/our-plan/

websites2023 5y ago

> The obvious logical choice is for Tesla to start retrofitting Superchargers with CCS now that it's open and eventually ween Tesla owners into using adapters that Tesla already makes. I disagree. I already use an adapter for L2 charging, on the rare occasion that I am at one place long enough for it to be worth it (work). I use the super chargers almost exclusively. I don’t want to use an adapter, that’s a poor experience. If others want to use the network, let them adapt.

theluketaylor 5y ago
Tesla missed their chance with Model 3. EU regs forced them to support CCS in 2017. Existing Model S owners got a small adaptor and European Model 3 has always been native CCS. The supercharger cabinets have both tesla and CCS connectors. Tesla could have done the same thing in north america and chose not to.
AkBKukU 5y ago
I should have clarified that new Telsas should use CCS and existing Tesla owners would "eventually" need to use an adapter. That's the weening I was talking about. Start adding CSS to all the Superchargers. Once a significant build out is completely start selling new Teslas with CSS and an adapter for any older Superchargers that don't get retrofitted. 2-5yrs later new chargers can only have CCS. The burden of the adapter being put on the larger market is just not going to happen. If Tesla wants to stay relevant as more automakers enter the EV market they need to adapt.
Robotbeat 5y ago
I mostly agree with you. One of the best results of Tesla opening up its supercharger network would be encouraging other EV providers to use the much better Tesla style plug and everyone ending up standardizing on it. but I just don’t think that’ll happen.

Robotbeat 5y ago

The Tesla adapter is superior in almost every way to CCS. IMHO, everyone should use it. The CCS plug, particularly the US variant, is considerably worse from a usability perspective. (It’s also more complicated and heavy and therefore more expensive to make.) Standardizing on the US CCS plug would be a mistake that would cement a disadvantage for EVs. If we’re going to insist on a standard plug, I’d prefer the Tesla plug but even the European CCS plug wouldn’t be so bad. Look at the size difference, and tell me that lifting a much heavier plug won’t have a usability impact especially for people with a small frame or physical disability.

edent 5y ago
I'm not sure I understand that. The Tesla plug is 5 pin - as is CCS. In terms of usability, CCS just plugs in. I've not used a Tesla plug, but I'm curious as to how that could be cheaper. CCS doesn't weigh that much - it's a plastic shell around metal pins. The cable weighs a fair bit - but isn't that the same of any rugged cable?
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  It’s cheaper because it’s much smaller and topologically simpler. CCS is built like a gas nozzle with a separate handle and trigger. Tesla plug is just a smooth plug.
  - tw04 5y ago
    It also seems to frequently get stuck... I've yet to hear that happening with CCS. Lighter but less reliable != better: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/supercharger-cable-stuck.227153/ https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/supercharger-cable-s...
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      “Frequently”? No. Also, all fast charging plugs have an electronic interlock, and it’s for safety reasons (to prevent flash from a manual disconnect in the middle of charging). So the problem you describe happens for other vehicles occasionally, like eTron and i3 (after a quick google). Tesla vehicles are MUCH more common in the US and have had access to much better fast charging for a lot longer, so you’re a victim of sample bias.

Dunedan 5y ago

> The obvious logical choice is for Tesla to start retrofitting Superchargers with CCS now that it's open and eventually ween Tesla owners into using adapters that Tesla already makes. European superchargers already offer CCS ports. Tesla started adding them in 2018 for their Model 3, which also features CCS (at least in Europe). > All V2 Superchargers in Europe feature dual-cable posts to accommodate both DC Type 2 and CCS Combo 2 charge-ports. European V3 Superchargers feature single-cable CCS technology, which are directly compatible with all Model 3 vehicles. Model S and Model X vehicles in region can access V3 Superchargers with a CCS Combo 2 adapter. https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharging https://www.tesla.com/en_GB/support/supercharging And here is another post from 2018 showing one of the first pictures of a supercharger with CCS: https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-dual-charge-ccs-upgrade-model-3-europe-rollout/ https://www.teslarati.com/tesla-supercharger-dual-charge-ccs...