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Honestly, as necessary as that is, it’s not a magic solution. People are quitting the restaurant industry in France too, despite having none of the tip sillines

Honestly, as necessary as that is, it’s not a magic solution. People are quitting the restaurant industry in France too, despite having none of the tip silliness. It’s just that people are realizing that there are easier minimum wage jobs than working in a kitchen

ashtonkem 5y ago
Perhaps the industry is not sustainable then.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
  I agree. It seems that most people's "solutions" to this "problem" are various ways to make people's live more miserable and keep them desperate enough to work shit jobs for low pay. I guess a lot of people are just fine with having a slave class as long as it means they don't have to be inconvenienced in any way. If this industry literally cannot afford to pay people a living wage, if no one wants to work for them and they can't remain profitable by making working conditions better, then they just shouldn't even exist.
  - wonderwonder 5y ago
    Most eye opening part of the pandemic was the fact that in the US the majority of people dubbed as essential and forced to work were also the people paid the least. Grocery workers standing there with 2 masks on making minimum wage while the rest of us waltz in take what we need and return to the relative safety of our remote work. Then making fast food workers essential instead of paying them unemployment was just taking things to another level of pettiness.
- rusk 5y ago
  Maybe a cut in VAT would help? Although that probably doesn’t help in the states …
  - Hjfrf 5y ago
    If you're taking about the UK, the obvious starting point would be ending subsidies for buy-to-let. In a pandemic with vast spending deficits, the government is giving out mortgage holidays, 95% mortgage scheme, stamp duty holiday etc.
    - bencollier49 5y ago
      I think some of this might be down to a lot of pensions being invested in property. It feels a little bit like the dam is bursting in several places at once; I'm not hopeful.
  - ashtonkem 5y ago
    The history of tax cuts in order to help out workers is .. not great.
- darth_avocado 5y ago
  It used to be. When ordering food in a restaurant was a special thing for special occasions. It was expensive to eat out and the workers were compensated for it. Then we got to a place where food was supposed fast, cheap and accessible to everyone at any time. And suddenly you couldn't charge a lot for your food and worker wages stagnated. Sure more people work in the restaurant industry than they ever did before, but that's what happens. Quantity over quality in almost any service industry always means abundance of the service at the expense of the workers. Take a look at the rideshare business.
  - danaris 5y ago
    I mean...to what extent does this correlate with the nationwide stagnation of real wages? If your average American working a full-time job can't afford to eat out at high enough prices to keep restaurants afloat while paying decent wages, that sounds like a systemic problem—and we already know that one of those exists here.
    - namdnay 5y ago
      I guess it depends how often you expect to eat out. If it’s once a month, I think most can afford more expensive restaurants
      - bluGill 5y ago
        Once you learn to cook you won't eat at anything less than the most expensive. It is really hard to enjoy a meal when you are thinking "I could have done this better myself at less cost". Chains and fast food just don't provide the quality I demand for the most part, and even the independents are hit and miss.
        SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
        In this case you're trading out your effort for the cash. I'm happy to trade my money, which I earn much more efficiently at my job than I can save by cooking, for the food so I don't have to put in effort and can enjoy my evening out with friends. I'm also more than happy to pay a couple of dollar premium to eat fast food than try to recreate it on my own while I'm running to work.
- imtringued 5y ago
  The modern service job isn't meant to be sustainable in the first place. It's entirely based around the idea of having surplus labor using it inefficiently. Any sane economist that has to solve for the constraint "everyone has to provide for themselves" aka the mythical republican "responsibility" would first start by creating enough jobs to reach full employment. When you leave everything up to responsibility you also have the duty to provide everyone with the ability to live up to their responsibility. Society as a whole doesn't benefit from exploitation or unsustainable businesses.
jcun4128 5y ago
hehe I escaped into tech, but I remember washing plates listening to podcasts listening to Changelog while riding my bike at night after getting out of the factory
yepthatsreality 5y ago
Sure but this goes beyond restaurants in my opinion. Look at these states that had mass migration of people during the pandemic. You will find the (big) sky-rocketing cost of living where those who are moving in on a whim are also not seeking jobs in the state. However all these businesses need employees to handle the new increase in customers. The employers aren’t raising their wages either, which is also not attracting people to work. When the lower classes are forced to move elsewhere (Outside the cities) then this problem will get worse. Return to office might have some reverse effect but online remote employees can be one of the biggest generators of this problem.
- conductr 5y ago
  > The employers aren’t raising their wages either They are. It takes time but they are. I work in a business that is having a hard time hiring entry level healthcare workers because Walmart and Amazon warehoueses is now paying $15-20/hr when it was only $12 pre-covid. Walmart and Amazon would only raise wages if they truly had a labor supply issue, which they do, we all do.
  - andechs 5y ago
    Walmart and Amazon raising wages allows them to exercise their huge scale to further crush their competitors. With their huge efficiencies of scale and deep cash reserves, they are better able to offer higher wages than competitors. During the pandemic, both Walmart and Amazon have seen huge growth. They can continue this growth post-pandemic by squeezing their competitors on wages, and eventually emerging with less competitors.
    - j7ake 5y ago
      Being able to be more efficient and pass down savings to low prices and higher worker wages seem like a good thing.
      - the-dude 5y ago
        Until there is only Walmart and Amazon left.
minikites 5y ago
>It’s just that people are realizing that there are easier minimum wage jobs than working in a kitchen Exactly, so restaurant owners should raise wages to compensate. There's not a shortage of workers, there's a shortage of owners willing to pay the current market wage.
- FredPret 5y ago
  I agree. It’s a simple matter of supply and demand. Want more supply? Raise the price!
skeeter2020 5y ago
>> people are realizing that there are easier minimum wage jobs than working in a kitchen A lot of jurisdictions showed them this when they paid almost the the same as their FT take-home pay during Covid. I don't think they've left for something better; I think they're mostly not doing anything.
alexott 5y ago
Same in Germany
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
In france being a waiters is way harder than most others jobs. At most jobs you get to work 35 hours on regular days, with a lot of hollidays and a fixed schedule. Restaurants have a lot of legal exceptions because you need people to work on sunday, vacations, weird schedules, etc. So compared to other situations in the same country, it's not a good deal.
- at-fates-hands 5y ago
  >> Restaurants have a lot of legal exceptions because you need people to work on sunday, vacations, weird schedules, etc. Actually a lot of industries have this problem. I was a smartphone tech. I repaired phones. You know when a majority of our business was done? On weekends and holidays. Whenever my GF had a national holiday, I had to work because it meant the people who put off fixing their phones will take that day and come it for a repair because it was way more convenient than during or after their working hours. I also had to work until 7pm every night for the same reason. My owner was banking on people coming home from work and stopping, so we stayed open an extra two hours. Some days I had five people in my office. Other days? Maybe one or two. But those two hours generated a lot more revenue than you probably think over the course of a month.

ashtonkem 5y ago

Perhaps the industry is not sustainable then.

AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
I agree. It seems that most people's "solutions" to this "problem" are various ways to make people's live more miserable and keep them desperate enough to work shit jobs for low pay. I guess a lot of people are just fine with having a slave class as long as it means they don't have to be inconvenienced in any way. If this industry literally cannot afford to pay people a living wage, if no one wants to work for them and they can't remain profitable by making working conditions better, then they just shouldn't even exist.
- wonderwonder 5y ago
  Most eye opening part of the pandemic was the fact that in the US the majority of people dubbed as essential and forced to work were also the people paid the least. Grocery workers standing there with 2 masks on making minimum wage while the rest of us waltz in take what we need and return to the relative safety of our remote work. Then making fast food workers essential instead of paying them unemployment was just taking things to another level of pettiness.
rusk 5y ago
Maybe a cut in VAT would help? Although that probably doesn’t help in the states …
- Hjfrf 5y ago
  If you're taking about the UK, the obvious starting point would be ending subsidies for buy-to-let. In a pandemic with vast spending deficits, the government is giving out mortgage holidays, 95% mortgage scheme, stamp duty holiday etc.
  - bencollier49 5y ago
    I think some of this might be down to a lot of pensions being invested in property. It feels a little bit like the dam is bursting in several places at once; I'm not hopeful.
- ashtonkem 5y ago
  The history of tax cuts in order to help out workers is .. not great.
darth_avocado 5y ago
It used to be. When ordering food in a restaurant was a special thing for special occasions. It was expensive to eat out and the workers were compensated for it. Then we got to a place where food was supposed fast, cheap and accessible to everyone at any time. And suddenly you couldn't charge a lot for your food and worker wages stagnated. Sure more people work in the restaurant industry than they ever did before, but that's what happens. Quantity over quality in almost any service industry always means abundance of the service at the expense of the workers. Take a look at the rideshare business.
- danaris 5y ago
  I mean...to what extent does this correlate with the nationwide stagnation of real wages? If your average American working a full-time job can't afford to eat out at high enough prices to keep restaurants afloat while paying decent wages, that sounds like a systemic problem—and we already know that one of those exists here.
  - namdnay 5y ago
    I guess it depends how often you expect to eat out. If it’s once a month, I think most can afford more expensive restaurants
    - bluGill 5y ago
      Once you learn to cook you won't eat at anything less than the most expensive. It is really hard to enjoy a meal when you are thinking "I could have done this better myself at less cost". Chains and fast food just don't provide the quality I demand for the most part, and even the independents are hit and miss.
      - SketchySeaBeast 5y ago
        In this case you're trading out your effort for the cash. I'm happy to trade my money, which I earn much more efficiently at my job than I can save by cooking, for the food so I don't have to put in effort and can enjoy my evening out with friends. I'm also more than happy to pay a couple of dollar premium to eat fast food than try to recreate it on my own while I'm running to work.
imtringued 5y ago
The modern service job isn't meant to be sustainable in the first place. It's entirely based around the idea of having surplus labor using it inefficiently. Any sane economist that has to solve for the constraint "everyone has to provide for themselves" aka the mythical republican "responsibility" would first start by creating enough jobs to reach full employment. When you leave everything up to responsibility you also have the duty to provide everyone with the ability to live up to their responsibility. Society as a whole doesn't benefit from exploitation or unsustainable businesses.

jcun4128 5y ago

hehe I escaped into tech, but I remember washing plates listening to podcasts listening to Changelog while riding my bike at night after getting out of the factory

yepthatsreality 5y ago

Sure but this goes beyond restaurants in my opinion. Look at these states that had mass migration of people during the pandemic. You will find the (big) sky-rocketing cost of living where those who are moving in on a whim are also not seeking jobs in the state. However all these businesses need employees to handle the new increase in customers. The employers aren’t raising their wages either, which is also not attracting people to work. When the lower classes are forced to move elsewhere (Outside the cities) then this problem will get worse. Return to office might have some reverse effect but online remote employees can be one of the biggest generators of this problem.

conductr 5y ago
> The employers aren’t raising their wages either They are. It takes time but they are. I work in a business that is having a hard time hiring entry level healthcare workers because Walmart and Amazon warehoueses is now paying $15-20/hr when it was only $12 pre-covid. Walmart and Amazon would only raise wages if they truly had a labor supply issue, which they do, we all do.
- andechs 5y ago
  Walmart and Amazon raising wages allows them to exercise their huge scale to further crush their competitors. With their huge efficiencies of scale and deep cash reserves, they are better able to offer higher wages than competitors. During the pandemic, both Walmart and Amazon have seen huge growth. They can continue this growth post-pandemic by squeezing their competitors on wages, and eventually emerging with less competitors.
  - j7ake 5y ago
    Being able to be more efficient and pass down savings to low prices and higher worker wages seem like a good thing.
    - the-dude 5y ago
      Until there is only Walmart and Amazon left.

minikites 5y ago

>It’s just that people are realizing that there are easier minimum wage jobs than working in a kitchen Exactly, so restaurant owners should raise wages to compensate. There's not a shortage of workers, there's a shortage of owners willing to pay the current market wage.

FredPret 5y ago
I agree. It’s a simple matter of supply and demand. Want more supply? Raise the price!

skeeter2020 5y ago

>> people are realizing that there are easier minimum wage jobs than working in a kitchen A lot of jurisdictions showed them this when they paid almost the the same as their FT take-home pay during Covid. I don't think they've left for something better; I think they're mostly not doing anything.

alexott 5y ago

Same in Germany

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

In france being a waiters is way harder than most others jobs. At most jobs you get to work 35 hours on regular days, with a lot of hollidays and a fixed schedule. Restaurants have a lot of legal exceptions because you need people to work on sunday, vacations, weird schedules, etc. So compared to other situations in the same country, it's not a good deal.

at-fates-hands 5y ago
>> Restaurants have a lot of legal exceptions because you need people to work on sunday, vacations, weird schedules, etc. Actually a lot of industries have this problem. I was a smartphone tech. I repaired phones. You know when a majority of our business was done? On weekends and holidays. Whenever my GF had a national holiday, I had to work because it meant the people who put off fixing their phones will take that day and come it for a repair because it was way more convenient than during or after their working hours. I also had to work until 7pm every night for the same reason. My owner was banking on people coming home from work and stopping, so we stayed open an extra two hours. Some days I had five people in my office. Other days? Maybe one or two. But those two hours generated a lot more revenue than you probably think over the course of a month.