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Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-

Since this is a long article, here’s a summary for fellow readers — it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported due to the ‘hype’ of meditation as the 21st century cure-all. He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research), it being a pseudo-religion, and lastly, his belief that the extended use of meditation is the ‘opposite’ of stoicism in the way that it can render a person not less, but more susceptible to breakage from smaller stresses, like one of a traffic jam. He also attempts to make a biological argument on how this works by invoking something he calls the limbic system feedback loop, however I have found that argument unconvincing due to lack of any actual evidence.

montenegrohugo 5y ago
Appreciated!
raincom 5y ago
Isn't (esp dissociative experiences) what is called "dark nights" in the Buddhist traditions?
- automatic6131 5y ago
  Yes, this is mentioned explicitly in the article too.
- bencollier49 5y ago
  The "Dark Night" is typically attributed to St. John of the Cross, although I'd be willing to believe that the term has been used in other traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul Ah, note the last paragraph in this article: 'In modern mindfulness practice, many authors have named a similar phenomenon in meditation as the dark night of the soul after the poem. It is often described as a lengthened and intense state of depression or ennui caused by errant or irresponsible meditation practices. Author John Yates compares it to a Theravadan term, dukkha ñanas, or "knowledges of suffering".'
  - Leparamour 5y ago
    >irresponsible meditation practices I can't imagine what an irresponsible meditation practice would look like. Any pointers?
    - orwin 5y ago
      Meditating alone for starter? Meditating too long. Meditating before your day start and you get into stressfull situation. It should be done step by step, carefully. I think philosophers talked about habitus, and nowadays we might be able to "fix" phobia with a mix of MRI and reinforcement learning, slowly. Or how to reduce your fear of falling when rockclimbing, by falling "on purpose" when you are in between pitons by an increasingly large length.
    - SyzygistSix 5y ago
      In Buddhism, one big one would be not keeping in mind the primary goal of non-attachment. Non-attachment to bliss, horror, expectations, and certainly not to any goal. The Biography of Naropa would make an amazing horror movie. Really wild read as well.
    - goodpoint 5y ago
      Meditating without an experienced and well trained teacher.
    - bencollier49 5y ago
      It's worth ruminating on the fact that all medicines are also poisons. This is why homeopathy is so safe.
      - bencollier49 5y ago
        Ah, this needs explaining - any tool which can cure can also cause injury. Too much of a medicine will kill. Homeopathy is useless, which is why you can't harm anyone with it. Meditation does work, which is why it can also be dangerous.
    - denton-scratch 5y ago
- rocqua 5y ago
  The article mentions that he experienced this, read about the dark night and the advice to "push through it" and that that advice backfired horribly.
stinos 5y ago
in the way that it renders a person not less, but more susceptible to breakage from smaller stresses That should be can render I think, the author seems well aware that what happened about him isn't bound to happen to anyone.
- rolleiflex 5y ago
  Good idea, I just corrected it. Thanks.
mettamage 5y ago
> He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research) Experienced this as well. > it being a pseudo-religion IMO, too simple. Many experiences feel quite pseudo-religion like. > more susceptible to breakage from smaller stresses, like one of a traffic jam Didn't experience this. In fact I believed I was more or less invincible and became pretty deluded. Thankfully a part always stays skeptical. Being skeptical saved me and it made me stop meditating for a while and now I have it at a level where it's beneficial.
- froh 5y ago
  looking for a good level for myself, I'm curious which practice and level you find beneficial for yourself?
  - mettamage 5y ago
    Currently I meditate way less than I should. There have been a few months where it was as if I was only mind wandering the whole day (stressful period), so then I meditate a bit more to calm myself down.
arcturus17 5y ago
Thanks for the summary. Not the first time I hear about these negative side effects, but every time I’m reminded of the possibility I’m surprised. It also reminds me however that my meditation practice is infinitely shallower than what people suffering negative consequences describe. There was a time where I would practice very rigorously (for me at least) and all I can remember is that I felt more empathy and emotion but never in a bad sense. I remember getting tearful if I heard a story of human suffering, and I also remember getting quasi-orgasmic sensations with food. Never things like losing it at a traffic jam. I wish I could recover the positives, but unfortunately I don't remember what my practice consisted of back in the day. Maybe I should go to a class or something.
- dgb23 5y ago
  I personally had intense experiences pretty quickly but didn’t overdo it after. I (now) have a healthy respect of psychedelic experiences. As another commenter said, don’t overdo things. Edit: whether you get more intense experiences likely is some function of how stable and sensitive you are, what other experiences you already had and how much you meditate. I imagine that very grounded people don’t get problems as quickly. That’s a good thing, not shallowness.
- emoII 5y ago
  > It also reminds me however that my meditation practice is infinitely shallower than what people suffering negative consequences describe. Actually, the author describe people having similar negative experiences just from dabbling with meditation apps, so the catalyst is not necessarily a 14-day silent retreat, but rather something more intangible, in which case it could happen to anyone, really
cyberpunk 5y ago
These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go a bit wrong. I don’t think it’s actively harmful, but the “mindfulness industry” is full of charlatans and poor advice, and it does make me rather sad that it’s being monetised in such a way. Just sit.
- shmageggy 5y ago
  This is exactly the kind of inappropriate advice that the author is cautioning against. He was not just starting out, he had experienced teachers, and the horriffic panic-attack-like state he was not something that could have been addressed by "returning to the moment".
  - cyberpunk 5y ago
    He was an instructor in "Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction" -- sorry, this is not a real thing. He's been teaching things he clearly does not understand, and his mind was blown by this. When I say "a teacher would tell you to come back to the moment" it's not quite as simple as I make it sound, the key thing is who the advice is coming from (read: an actual zen teacher who has received transmission, not a charlatan mindfulness camp fleecing wannabe mindfulness bro's out of several hundred dollars to sit with no experience for 10 days). I don't really have much sympathy here, it seems, but I don't really understand how one could not expect something like this to happen unless they really avoided speaking to anyone with actual experience (which, yes, means a zen monk, and not someone who spent 3 days in a Hilton doubletree learning how to teach people to 'breathe' and 'unlock their chakras' -- which is all bollocks.)
    - shmageggy 5y ago
      So, to clarify, you are aligning with the view he's opposing in the article that if someone has a profoundly negative experience due to meditation they're just "doing it wrong". That the practice, when done a certain way, carries 0% risk for very bad effects?
mensetmanus1861 5y ago
I did a 10 day meditation (vipassana) few years ago. I remember some fellow meditators (majority of the sessions are in a hall full of meditators) having emotionally intense experiences (someone would cry inconsolably, someone will shout for few moments suddenly). I personally per say did not experience any such external emotional outburst but definitely got better clarity and calmness towards daily routine life. The output of meditation is supposed to be a clearer mind from before and it may take a while to reach the desired state of mind. Stoicism should not be misinterpreted as having no zest for life. One psychologist I know told me something that made an impression on me "Just because life is going to end or that many good things come to an end eventually doesn't mean you should not enjoy the present". I am sure different people have different outcomes but I think the purpose of meditation is to learn the joy of life. One could see stoicism as being pessimistic towards life. I personally see meditation as a tool that hopefully helps you derive the joy of living in every moment of your daily existence while not being attached to it so that that if the circumstance changes, you don't lose the joyfulness and adapt to the new things in life knowing that the change won't last either.
- russelldjimmy 5y ago
  I did a 10 day Vipassana course a few months ago. I went in with no expectations, except to disconnect from the online world for 10 days. The course had a subtle yet profound effect on me. But I couldn’t put my finger on it till I incorporated the practice in my daily life. Since then, I have been practising Vipassana and/or Anapan every day (sometimes twice a day) and I realised that my entire life had been coloured by my anxiety. Now, when my anxiety shoots up, I am much more aware of it than before and can actively self-soothe. Every time I meditate, it feels like someone threw cold water on a hot metal plate. Another way I like to think about it is that I don’t necessarily feel like I’ve “cleared” my mind, so much as “defragmented” it, like a good old spinning hard disk. Usually tears form in my eyes in most sessions. I continue to practice it every day. I am very grateful to have been through this experience. I experience a little bit more compassion towards myself, and hence, other people. I have a long way to go but this first step has given me much hope for the future. I would love to hear about your experience too.
quijoteuniv 5y ago
Trying to «gain» something from mindfullness/budism is a bad one. Is adviseable that people with drug use history refrain from using drugs for an extended period of time before taking on other mind altering experiences. I believe the grove of the brain need some repairing. Disrupting natural processes like breathing is not adviseable for beginners and probably unnecesary anyway. Beware of powerfull exercises and quick fixes, people get damaged by reckless/selfish/clueless gurus very often. Usually slow, gentle exercising over longer period of time is more benefical. For sone meditation in motion like Tai Chi works best. And finally you will not stop being an idi0t just by meditating, you are likely to turn into an idi0t with a lot of energy! Probably the biggest pitfall.
blunte 5y ago
I think it's also worth noting the extent of time and focus he dedicated to this practice before the negatives appeared. Putting in 10% of what this guy put in would likely give you measurable benefits without the disassociation risks, unless you already have some mental peculiarities.
loup-vaillant 5y ago
> it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported Before this article, I didn't know meditation could have any adverse effect. Until today, I haven' read a single depiction, a single mention of meditation going wrong. Except in fictions. So this claim that one does not simply learn about the negative side effects of meditation sounds very plausible to me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- huge87 5y ago
  This is true at least in part due to the monetization of mindfulness, as a previous poster stated. The import of mindfulness into western culture strictly as a tool to manage stress has turned it into a cure all for general audiences. There are certainly risks. A long retreat may exacerbate existing psychopathologies like depression due to the extended isolation. I'd liken meditation to something like exercise. Exercise is good in general, but you still have to manage and work around injuries. I wouldn't suggest you walk 5 miles with a sprained ankle. And so it is with meditation. But yes, I also figure this isn't talked about enough - especially in the context of mindfulness as a product.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  Every activity has an immediate potential adverse effect: wasting time.
mcguire 5y ago
The author does not mention stoicism at all.

montenegrohugo 5y ago

Appreciated!

raincom 5y ago

Isn't (esp dissociative experiences) what is called "dark nights" in the Buddhist traditions?

automatic6131 5y ago
Yes, this is mentioned explicitly in the article too.
bencollier49 5y ago
The "Dark Night" is typically attributed to St. John of the Cross, although I'd be willing to believe that the term has been used in other traditions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Night_of_the_Soul Ah, note the last paragraph in this article: 'In modern mindfulness practice, many authors have named a similar phenomenon in meditation as the dark night of the soul after the poem. It is often described as a lengthened and intense state of depression or ennui caused by errant or irresponsible meditation practices. Author John Yates compares it to a Theravadan term, dukkha ñanas, or "knowledges of suffering".'
- Leparamour 5y ago
  >irresponsible meditation practices I can't imagine what an irresponsible meditation practice would look like. Any pointers?
  - orwin 5y ago
    Meditating alone for starter? Meditating too long. Meditating before your day start and you get into stressfull situation. It should be done step by step, carefully. I think philosophers talked about habitus, and nowadays we might be able to "fix" phobia with a mix of MRI and reinforcement learning, slowly. Or how to reduce your fear of falling when rockclimbing, by falling "on purpose" when you are in between pitons by an increasingly large length.
  - SyzygistSix 5y ago
    In Buddhism, one big one would be not keeping in mind the primary goal of non-attachment. Non-attachment to bliss, horror, expectations, and certainly not to any goal. The Biography of Naropa would make an amazing horror movie. Really wild read as well.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    Meditating without an experienced and well trained teacher.
  - bencollier49 5y ago
    It's worth ruminating on the fact that all medicines are also poisons. This is why homeopathy is so safe.
    - bencollier49 5y ago
      Ah, this needs explaining - any tool which can cure can also cause injury. Too much of a medicine will kill. Homeopathy is useless, which is why you can't harm anyone with it. Meditation does work, which is why it can also be dangerous.
  - denton-scratch 5y ago
rocqua 5y ago
The article mentions that he experienced this, read about the dark night and the advice to "push through it" and that that advice backfired horribly.

stinos 5y ago

in the way that it renders a person not less, but more susceptible to breakage from smaller stresses That should be can render I think, the author seems well aware that what happened about him isn't bound to happen to anyone.

rolleiflex 5y ago
Good idea, I just corrected it. Thanks.

mettamage 5y ago

> He talks about dissociative experiences (which is well documented in medical research) Experienced this as well. > it being a pseudo-religion IMO, too simple. Many experiences feel quite pseudo-religion like. > more susceptible to breakage from smaller stresses, like one of a traffic jam Didn't experience this. In fact I believed I was more or less invincible and became pretty deluded. Thankfully a part always stays skeptical. Being skeptical saved me and it made me stop meditating for a while and now I have it at a level where it's beneficial.

froh 5y ago
looking for a good level for myself, I'm curious which practice and level you find beneficial for yourself?
- mettamage 5y ago
  Currently I meditate way less than I should. There have been a few months where it was as if I was only mind wandering the whole day (stressful period), so then I meditate a bit more to calm myself down.

arcturus17 5y ago

Thanks for the summary. Not the first time I hear about these negative side effects, but every time I’m reminded of the possibility I’m surprised. It also reminds me however that my meditation practice is infinitely shallower than what people suffering negative consequences describe. There was a time where I would practice very rigorously (for me at least) and all I can remember is that I felt more empathy and emotion but never in a bad sense. I remember getting tearful if I heard a story of human suffering, and I also remember getting quasi-orgasmic sensations with food. Never things like losing it at a traffic jam. I wish I could recover the positives, but unfortunately I don't remember what my practice consisted of back in the day. Maybe I should go to a class or something.

dgb23 5y ago
I personally had intense experiences pretty quickly but didn’t overdo it after. I (now) have a healthy respect of psychedelic experiences. As another commenter said, don’t overdo things. Edit: whether you get more intense experiences likely is some function of how stable and sensitive you are, what other experiences you already had and how much you meditate. I imagine that very grounded people don’t get problems as quickly. That’s a good thing, not shallowness.
emoII 5y ago
> It also reminds me however that my meditation practice is infinitely shallower than what people suffering negative consequences describe. Actually, the author describe people having similar negative experiences just from dabbling with meditation apps, so the catalyst is not necessarily a 14-day silent retreat, but rather something more intangible, in which case it could happen to anyone, really

cyberpunk 5y ago

These sorts of things have been dealt with for centuries by Buddhists, it’s a fairly common effect when you start with Zazen. This is why taking one part of the practice and abandoning the rest (most specifically, an experienced teacher) isn’t a great idea for everyone. Most of the time all you need to hear is “just let whatever comes up during Zazen go, and return to the moment” but alas, if you don’t things can go a bit wrong. I don’t think it’s actively harmful, but the “mindfulness industry” is full of charlatans and poor advice, and it does make me rather sad that it’s being monetised in such a way. Just sit.

shmageggy 5y ago
This is exactly the kind of inappropriate advice that the author is cautioning against. He was not just starting out, he had experienced teachers, and the horriffic panic-attack-like state he was not something that could have been addressed by "returning to the moment".
- cyberpunk 5y ago
  He was an instructor in "Mindfulness-Based Stress Reduction" -- sorry, this is not a real thing. He's been teaching things he clearly does not understand, and his mind was blown by this. When I say "a teacher would tell you to come back to the moment" it's not quite as simple as I make it sound, the key thing is who the advice is coming from (read: an actual zen teacher who has received transmission, not a charlatan mindfulness camp fleecing wannabe mindfulness bro's out of several hundred dollars to sit with no experience for 10 days). I don't really have much sympathy here, it seems, but I don't really understand how one could not expect something like this to happen unless they really avoided speaking to anyone with actual experience (which, yes, means a zen monk, and not someone who spent 3 days in a Hilton doubletree learning how to teach people to 'breathe' and 'unlock their chakras' -- which is all bollocks.)
  - shmageggy 5y ago
    So, to clarify, you are aligning with the view he's opposing in the article that if someone has a profoundly negative experience due to meditation they're just "doing it wrong". That the practice, when done a certain way, carries 0% risk for very bad effects?

mensetmanus1861 5y ago

I did a 10 day meditation (vipassana) few years ago. I remember some fellow meditators (majority of the sessions are in a hall full of meditators) having emotionally intense experiences (someone would cry inconsolably, someone will shout for few moments suddenly). I personally per say did not experience any such external emotional outburst but definitely got better clarity and calmness towards daily routine life. The output of meditation is supposed to be a clearer mind from before and it may take a while to reach the desired state of mind. Stoicism should not be misinterpreted as having no zest for life. One psychologist I know told me something that made an impression on me "Just because life is going to end or that many good things come to an end eventually doesn't mean you should not enjoy the present". I am sure different people have different outcomes but I think the purpose of meditation is to learn the joy of life. One could see stoicism as being pessimistic towards life. I personally see meditation as a tool that hopefully helps you derive the joy of living in every moment of your daily existence while not being attached to it so that that if the circumstance changes, you don't lose the joyfulness and adapt to the new things in life knowing that the change won't last either.

russelldjimmy 5y ago
I did a 10 day Vipassana course a few months ago. I went in with no expectations, except to disconnect from the online world for 10 days. The course had a subtle yet profound effect on me. But I couldn’t put my finger on it till I incorporated the practice in my daily life. Since then, I have been practising Vipassana and/or Anapan every day (sometimes twice a day) and I realised that my entire life had been coloured by my anxiety. Now, when my anxiety shoots up, I am much more aware of it than before and can actively self-soothe. Every time I meditate, it feels like someone threw cold water on a hot metal plate. Another way I like to think about it is that I don’t necessarily feel like I’ve “cleared” my mind, so much as “defragmented” it, like a good old spinning hard disk. Usually tears form in my eyes in most sessions. I continue to practice it every day. I am very grateful to have been through this experience. I experience a little bit more compassion towards myself, and hence, other people. I have a long way to go but this first step has given me much hope for the future. I would love to hear about your experience too.

quijoteuniv 5y ago

Trying to «gain» something from mindfullness/budism is a bad one. Is adviseable that people with drug use history refrain from using drugs for an extended period of time before taking on other mind altering experiences. I believe the grove of the brain need some repairing. Disrupting natural processes like breathing is not adviseable for beginners and probably unnecesary anyway. Beware of powerfull exercises and quick fixes, people get damaged by reckless/selfish/clueless gurus very often. Usually slow, gentle exercising over longer period of time is more benefical. For sone meditation in motion like Tai Chi works best. And finally you will not stop being an idi0t just by meditating, you are likely to turn into an idi0t with a lot of energy! Probably the biggest pitfall.

blunte 5y ago

I think it's also worth noting the extent of time and focus he dedicated to this practice before the negatives appeared. Putting in 10% of what this guy put in would likely give you measurable benefits without the disassociation risks, unless you already have some mental peculiarities.

loup-vaillant 5y ago

> it’s mostly about the negative side effects of meditation that the author believes is under-documented or under-reported Before this article, I didn't know meditation could have any adverse effect. Until today, I haven' read a single depiction, a single mention of meditation going wrong. Except in fictions. So this claim that one does not simply learn about the negative side effects of meditation sounds very plausible to me.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
huge87 5y ago
This is true at least in part due to the monetization of mindfulness, as a previous poster stated. The import of mindfulness into western culture strictly as a tool to manage stress has turned it into a cure all for general audiences. There are certainly risks. A long retreat may exacerbate existing psychopathologies like depression due to the extended isolation. I'd liken meditation to something like exercise. Exercise is good in general, but you still have to manage and work around injuries. I wouldn't suggest you walk 5 miles with a sprained ankle. And so it is with meditation. But yes, I also figure this isn't talked about enough - especially in the context of mindfulness as a product.
lostmsu 5y ago
Every activity has an immediate potential adverse effect: wasting time.

mcguire 5y ago

The author does not mention stoicism at all.