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GM has signed an agreement to extract lithium from beneath the Salton Sea
- fnord77 5y ago> California Energy Commission’s estimate that the Salton Sea area could produce 600,000 tons of lithium per year, which is amazing since the entire world’s industry produced a mere 85,000 tons of lithium in all of 2019.
- hallway_monitor 5y agoThis seems suspiciously high. Even 60,000 tons would almost double the global supply. I would be surprised if this turns out to be accurate.
- selectodude 5y ago“Could” and “will do so very shortly” aren’t mutually exclusive.
- Robotbeat 5y agoLithium is not actually rare. I think this is a big source of continuing confusion in discussions on battery-electric electric vehicles (of all types: bikes, cars, trucks, buses, vans, airplanes, ships, trains, etc) and renewable energy (grid storage). Production capacity equals demand, roughly. That should not be surprising as production capacity costs money and you don't invest in more production capacity than you have demand. Proven reserves ALSO are some fairly low multiple of demand, for related reasons.
- AtlasBarfed 5y agoCobalt however.... To a lesser degree Nickel is being stressed as well. It's why LFP chemistry is so important. If that can handle mainstream use cases (commuter cars, medium range busses/trucking, etc) then BEV scaling to the entire economy becomes a lot more feasible.
- danans 5y agoLFP is well suited for stationary applications, since its energy density isn't as high as LiIon. I know Tesla uses it in some of their non-US EVs, but those are pretty range limited. The battery system on my house uses LFP cells. They're also extremely thermally stable, and don't require any cooling systems.
- pfdietz 5y agoLFP's lower energy density is at least partially made up for by its higher packing density. Other Li-ion chemistries need "firewalls" to prevent catastrophic propagation of thermal failure, but LFP cells can be packed tightly without such barriers.
- Robotbeat 5y agoIt’s fine for 250 miles range entry level electric cars. That’s equivalent to top of the line 5-10 years ago. Barely qualifies for “pretty range limited.”
- twobitshifter 5y agoIt’s 20,000 tons in stage 1 which is still huge. https://investingnews.com/company-profiles/controlled-thermal-resources-lithium-and-renewable-energy/ https://investingnews.com/company-profiles/controlled-therma... Hell’s Kitchen is expected to have a minimum 30 year life. Stage 1 of production is slated to begin in 2023, with a 20,000 tonnes per annum lithium hydroxide facility along with the generation of 49.9 megawatts of renewable energy from the integrated geothermal power plant.
- nickik 5y agoAnd there is about 99% change they will not reach that. The amount of Lithium projects that have not reached there targets in the last decade is amazing. Even the expansion plans of the 'big' lithium producers have been massively delayed. There has never been a single geothermal lithium project that was actually successful.
- coenhyde 5y agoyeah but for how long? 10 years? 30? 1?
- manquer 5y agoThe estimated reserves in SSGF(salton sea geothermal field) is 15 million metric tones[1]. Assuming the estimates are somewhat reliable at their projected annual draw it is 30 years worth. It is also to be noted that neither is the annual global demand close to that yet nor is the technology mature enough to extract that quantum yet so probably 50-60 years actual life time of the field which is not atypical for fields for other resources. Also estimate is fore 600,000 tones of lithium carbonate not pure lithium. [1] https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2020/08/05/geothermal-brines-could-propel-californias-green-economy/ https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2020/08/05/geothermal-brines-coul...
- coenhyde 5y agoA nice little reserve then!
- twobitshifter 5y agoClose - 2023 https://investingnews.com/company-profiles/controlled-thermal-resources-lithium-and-renewable-energy/ https://investingnews.com/company-profiles/controlled-therma... Controlled Thermal Resources anticipates commencement of commercial production at Hell’s Kitchen in 2023. The production of geothermal power at Hell’s Kitchen provides CTR the ability to participate in California’s growing renewable energy market. In January 2020, CTR announced it had entered into a 25 year power purchase agreement (PPA) with Imperial Irrigation District (IID), the largest irrigation district in North America and the sixth-largest electrical utility in California. With the assistance of its project engineering partner Hatch Ltd., Controlled Thermal Resources completed its Canadian National Instrument 43-101 (NI 43-101) Technical Report, and the accompanying Preliminary Economic Assessment (PEA). CTR has initiated a Prefeasibility Study (PFS) and commenced well pad construction in anticipation of drilling its first two geothermal wells.
- manquer 5y agoThe report says 600,000 tons lithium carbonate [1] per year. Given that Li(2)CO(3) is the molecular structure of lithium carbonate and 14:12:48 is the molar mass ratio. Therefore there is no more than 1/5 of that in actual lithium so about 120,000 tones. Still larger than today's world consumption but not as unrelastically high I guess. [1] https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2020/08/05/geothermal-brines-could-propel-californias-green-economy/ https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2020/08/05/geothermal-brines-coul...
- fogof 5y agoThis explains why later in the article it says the mine could produce 40% of the world’s lithium.
- desine 5y agoThe Salton Sea is already a man made disaster deep into ecological collapse. Even if they do it terribly, I doubt they'll make anything worse. It's also a region with no economic future, so hopefully this brings some jobs. This will be interesting to watch, I'm hopeful.
- samstave 5y agoHoldMyCarbonCredits while we make the Salton Sea a SuperFund-Site! [0] --- Anyone know how recoverable Lithium is from Lithium batts? Does the Lithium degrade/denature/deconstruct over time in all lithium batteries? How bad for the environment is all the Lithium we are throwing out with all these used up batteries? [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Superfund_sites
- parsecs 5y agoThere is only a tiny bit of lithium in lithium batteries, afaik.
- nitrogen 5y agoLithium is everywhere, especially in salt lakes. A long time ago I met someone whose family ran a mineral extraction company, of which there are many around Salt Lake City. They take the lake water and evaporate it. The main non-water ingredient in the concentrated brine was lithium. (Though the guy was drinking the stuff as a supplement, which probably affected his personality a bit)
- antisthenes 5y agoThat tidbit about drinking it is the most interesting part of this whole thread! Are they the same lithium salts that are prescribed as medication for certain psychological disorders?
- _Nat_ 5y agoYup! Dunno if modern medications may also include other active-ingredients to compliment lithium, but lithium itself is pretty much the same thing as sodium or potassium in terms of its simplicity as a chemical species. Since lithium has a +1 charge as a cation (positively charged ion) in salt, it needs to be balanced with an anion (negatively charged ion), so the exact salt can vary in solid-form. But once it dissolves in water, such as in the body, then it's not really bound to the anion anymore and so the exact anion it was originally ingested with isn't particularly important. Apparently some people used to drink [mineral water with lithium](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithia_water https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithia_water). Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_(medication) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_(medication)
- Mountain_Skies 5y agoLikely this will be a bad development for the community at Slab City.
- finiteseries 5y agoThere should be plenty of copper wiring available at the build sites.
- okareaman 5y agoI was there recently to see Salvation Mountain. It's been taken over by a bunch of acid casualties who have posted 'no picture' signs. A bunch of them came running towards me when I got out of the car to take a picture. I fully expected to hear bullets whizzing by my head as I got back in the car and drove off.
- Mountain_Skies 5y agoWonder if this is because they don't want to be photographed or if they want to extract money out of the situation.
- okareaman 5y agoI didn't stick around to find out and they weren't in a talkative mood. It was like an attack by zombies. Slab City is romanticized on the internet, but it looks to me like a dumping ground for humans who have been run out of every town they tried to live in.
- TedDoesntTalk 5y agoThey claim to own the photons reflecting off Salvation Mtn?
- thirtyseven 5y agoHow recently? I was there in December and it wasn't like that at all.
- aurizon 5y agoLithium battery recycling of high efficiency requres a known feed of one type of battery, Most scrap batteries with a mixture of assorted chemistry laptop batteries in small quantities can not optimize. Big players sort all their cells into knows metals/chemistry etc. for best recovery Tesla and other car makers will present a known consistent feed of old batteries and will be able to reclaim 95%++ of the battery metal content. The recycle field is getting crowded, but car makers have the high card as they can make their own recycling system in house. I bet Panasonic and LG have recycling - they will not leave that $$ on the table.
- londons_explore 5y agoBy grinding up a wide enough variety of batteries you can get a pretty consistent mix. You then smelt it to metal as if it were ore. The waste gasses are the most expensive to treat properly. Sure, some catch fire, but most smelters are kinda fireproof already...
- aurizon 5y agoYou can grind and smelt, risky as it is unless nitrogen blanketed? however this presents you with a hard to resolve mixture - usually the cheapest components are sacrificed for the Ni, Co and Li = even then it is a nuisance. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbkhXAP1EQE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbkhXAP1EQE
- cinquemb 5y agoInteresting video, the guy talks about "hydro metallurgical processing batteries" but I wonder how much these processes (grind up in a vacuum, boil off/condense electrolytes, separate out plastics/etc and ground into black mask, acid bath of black mask and separate out into NiSO4, CoSO4, Li2SO4, etc) cost compared to typical mining operations?
- aurizon 5y agoHydrometallurgical processes are water based processes where you react the digested battery liquid with other liquids to get a react product that can be dealt with by filtering. It is a complex, often proprietary process, changing Ph etc, and while patented it still has a lot of black art. The source rock ores, pegmatitees, of Li are low grade with many other mineral species.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegmatite https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pegmatite Like a bag of nuts and bolts
- mikeiz404 5y agoThis podcast episode, “The white gold rush” by The Slow Newscast, goes into depth on the recent history of the lake and the community of the Salton Sea — https://overcast.fm/+oXTWZbQac https://overcast.fm/+oXTWZbQac
- echelon 5y agoPresuming we have 100% oil-powered car and jet transit vs 100% electric (assuming electric planes are developed), which one is worse for the environment? Oil or lithium? Assume transportation levels remain constant or continue to grow. What's the cost of the entire lifecycle? Mining/extraction, carbon emissions, recycling (or not), etc. Honest question. I'm coming from a disposition where it seems like lithium will be just as bad or worse from a mining and remediation perspective, worse from a recycling perspective, but better for carbon sequestration assuming we get power from solar, wind, nuclear, etc. and not coal. It seems like electric will also increase cardiovascular and pulmonary health since many studies link air quality to endothelial aging. Overall, I'm curious if the trade-off are worth it. I'm also interested in the geopolitical angle. The US has energy on lock under the old regime, but energy alternatives seem as though they'll favor Europe and China (China especially for lithium), but not the oil powers. It also de-risks dependence on oil and coal for many countries that are net importers. Is this correct? How (or will?) a switch to electric transportation change the geopolitical world? Substantially? Edit: downvoted for questions.
- lanstin 5y agoRight now carbon dioxide caused warming is more serious threat than a few more toxic metals. Sunlight is basically free money raining down all the time.
- lanstin 5y agoAlso, by definition silicon (panels) and lithium (batteries) are super common elements. Not going to be hard to find. Unlike oil, you can use the solar panels to fab more solar panels, because of the sun’s input. You can’t use coal to make more coal. The solar inputs are long since gone.
- k33n 5y agoSo you believe that carbon dioxide -- which will be used by plants to generate oxygen -- is a greater threat to the environment than toxic metals, which will take millions of years to dissipate? Something seems off...
- grouphugs 5y agoahh yes, nothing like poisoning the sea after poisoning africa
- martinpw 5y agoOne thing to note - the headline of the article itself is incorrect. It says "GM Will Suck Lithium From the Salton Sea" In fact the lithium is being extracted from brine thousands of feet below the Salton Sea, as is stated in the article itself. Also GM is not doing the work, they signed an agreement with another company that is actually doing it. HN reworded headline is better.
- manquer 5y agoOn paper these projects are proposing to improve the salinity of the water in the sea, as the plan is to release the treated brine/water to the lake.
- cmrdporcupine 5y agoThe article says "The brine, after lithium extraction, is returned to the geothermal reservoir deep within the earth.” So doesn't sound like there's a desalinization story here.
- jordache 5y agothat's fine with me.. the imperial valley is a man made cluster f anyways.. It's a naturally desert environment with very little redeemable qualities, other than mineral extraction.
- thadk 5y agoThis Drainage Basin map (1943) seems to explain the salt and alkaline lakes around the world, like Salton Sea in CA, but I'd love to know more. https://www.reddit.com/r/oldmaps/comments/d0ilnn/world_drainage_basins_1943_by_the_american/ https://www.reddit.com/r/oldmaps/comments/d0ilnn/world_drain...
- 01100011 5y agoI find that area geologically fascinating. It's one of the few above-water rift zones in the world. According to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salton_Trough https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salton_Trough the sediment fills it in as quickly as it sinks, so you have sediment in some areas going down 20,000 feet. The earthquakes seem to come in swarms out there, which I think is a result of the pulling apart. In a thrust fault or strike-slip fault, you have a release of energy and while the stress is transferred somewhere else, that seems to be the end of the movement. When you pull two plates apart, you create a gap and the stuff above it sort of settles down into the gap, probably causing the successive earthquakes as it all settles into the new position. I really wish we had a canal to the Salton Sea. Having a new inland port and a source of fresher water would dramatically change the area.
- mogadsheu 5y agoAs a former geologist, it’s always awesome to see some one interested in geology. If you’re into infill from normal faulting, you might like reading up on the US Basin and Range—that’s all extension and basin fill
- 01100011 5y agoGeology is absolutely fascinating! I'm really amazed at far geologists have progressed in establishing the history of our planet. I have to thank Nick Zentner's YouTube videos(https://www.youtube.com/user/GeologyNick https://www.youtube.com/user/GeologyNick) for getting me into geology. He has a very approachable style for non-geologists. I've been looking at the geology of Nevada more since the Mina, NV earthquake storm started(2020? I forget). Geologic activity is such a slow process so it's great when you can see a burst of activity like that. I doubt I'll live long enough to see it, but I'm hoping I can see the emergence of a new volcanic cone in the western NV/eastern CA region.
- alonmower 5y agoIf you’re interested in this stuff I definitely recommend checking out ‘Annals of the Former World’ if you haven’t already. I have no geology background but found it utterly riveting https://www.amazon.com/Annals-Former-World-John-McPhee/dp/0374518734 https://www.amazon.com/Annals-Former-World-John-McPhee/dp/03...
- MisterTea 5y agoWeird. About two months ago I was browsing around google earth in california when i came across a weird looking lake called salton sea. I read the wikipedia article and was astonished as to how much a disaster it is.
- tenfourwookie 5y agoI think we should just nuke a path between the Salton Sea and the Pacific. That would clean things up right up.
- makeitdouble 5y ago“We fucked up trying to make canals in the first place. Let’s do it again to fix things, we’re so good at anticipating consequences”
- tenfourwookie 5y agoAbsolutely. Too much never really achieves greatness, but way too much is just perfect. Let's nuke the canal a kilometer deep from the Salton Sea to the Pacific. The southwest has always been home to such largesse. Oceans of sand, no one to say no. Native Americans built canals throughout the desert southwest, some of them hundreds of miles long, a thousand years before Christoforo Columbo saw his first manatee.
- mbfg 5y agoVeritasium did an excellent video on the history of the salton sea, here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqrZG-EBaQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-OqrZG-EBaQ
- 2Gkashmiri 5y ago600,000 tonnes a year. Is that too optimistic ?
- webnrrd2k 5y agoDoesn't it seem like a reasonable idea to tie lithium extraction to the environmental remediation of the Salton sea?
- wingrime 5y agoWhy not switch to sodium-ion?
- adammunich 5y agoThere’s few reasons not to, and eventually I think people will realize this.
- pfdietz 5y agoI think it's because sodium ions are larger, so they diffuse more slowly in materials. But maybe that doesn't matter as much for longer duration stationary batteries where lower power density is tolerable.
- nickik 5y agoBecause making it work is difficult and energy density is worse. But sodium-ion will eventually be part of the story. However it will not be 'switching' both will need to be growing fast at the same time.
- teslaberry 5y agoconsider the cartel of u.s. auto manufacturers have all set targets that by 2035 they will no longer sell gasoline burning cars. who will be producing and then PROCESSING all the worlds lithium. as of now , china owns 90% of global production. i'm sure they are very happy , u.s. has extremely aggressive targets for vehicle electrification. oddly enough, all the u.s. oil that supposedly will no longer be consumed as a result, will be presumably available on international markets for sale, while the west aggressively shuttters international oil production. the u.s. , russia, and china will squeeze europe to death as they have no oil to export and will pay through the nose for electrification of vehicles. u.s. will benefit from higher oil prices in accelerated dollar demand. and china will sell everyone the batteries so they can feel better about themselves. the salton sea, meanwhile, will be competing with china.