14 ms·

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight

by zoba 5y ago

I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup and have been on a work-hiatus for almost a year. Now, I live amongst Amish people in the country. My biggest insight has been a mindset change. Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" This is an experiment I'm performing. A structured life feels safe and orderly - but what if living life and letting things unfold more 'organically' is better? It is a weird/uncomfortable shift because I can't predict what is coming. As an example, turns out I really enjoy building dams. A couple months ago I would not have been able to tell you that I'd be building a dam. I have no idea what it is that drives my own interests or affinities, but now instead of attempting to manipulate them for whatever X, Y, or Z goal... I just roll with wherever they take me. And they always seem ready to take me somewhere. My point is: In a life without work (in my experience) stuff will come up. Follow what arises, see where it goes. It certainly feels better.

low_common 5y ago
Are you rich/have no kids? Because most people probably cannot relate to the life you're living right now.
- low_common 5y ago
  Edit: Sorry, I did not read the article before reading your comment. The point was "what are you retiring to?" I understand what you're saying now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- TheSmiddy 5y ago
  "I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup" They're rich.
- lupire 5y ago
  I don't think the Amish are particularly rich or childless?
  - hesdeadjim 5y ago
    This is where assumptions can get you in trouble. The Amish are extremely business savvy, shrewd negotiators, and have no issues being active members in the economy. They also own vast tracts of very valuable land (especially in Lancaster, PA). Combine that with being frugal and austere, and it's a recipe for wealth. For childcare, their community focus let's them share the burden amongst the larger group. Additionally, children are not nearly as coddled and are expected to contribute to the family's work, and help co-parent their siblings. Compare this to the average nuclear family: underpaid, barely any savings, most likely rents, and lucky if they have even one family member nearby that can share the childcare burden.
    - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
      I will say this, if there is one thing I can do for my child (other than learning proper money management), when the time is right I will help them with the down payment on a home. Holy crap it's so much more important than renting. It seems like a hassle, I know, but building generational equity gives you such a leg up in the world.
      - xur17 5y ago
        I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you. A house is a form of forced savings, which is why it works so well for people, but you absolutely can build up wealth while renting.
        UnpossibleJim 5y ago
        It is for sure possible, no argument, but the actuality of it is relatively small, while the renters are putting in equity into someone else's pocket =/ Your "rent", as it were, goes towards something (even if a large portion of it is interest.. and extra payment a year towards the principal goes a long way).
- godot 5y ago
  Although you replied that you did not read the article first, I think you still do make a valid point. Here is an excerpt from the article: > Of course, some lucky people already know exactly what they’re retiring to, answers firmly in hand. > Examples: > It’s been a lifelong dream of mine to quit my current career and take something lower paying and more meaningful: teaching or contributing to a non-profit. > I’m going to do a lot of parenting. My kids can easily eat 14 hours a day, every day. The _second_ example here already calls out that it's going to be common to do parenting 14 hours a day if people retire early. For someone who has kids, it's pretty unlikely to be able to roll with life and see what comes up. It just isn't possible, with or without a job, being financially independent or not. And whether we like it or not, a large percentage of the population above 40 do have kids. This is purely my opinion, but I'm actually not sure that, for a child past 2 years old or so, if it's a good idea for a parent to be with their child 24/7. I think there's a lot of value in learning social interactions with other children in a daycare or preschool. I did this exact thing for 3 years and am transitioning the child to preschool at 3 years old, and it has been difficult. On top of it all, let's say your kids are school age, somewhere between 3 to 16. Let's say they go to school during the day, and you have free time during the day. There is another discussion to be had about your kids' mentality if they grow up with parents who don't need to work. Sure, maybe in the near future, in this next generation, we'll enter a society where work is unnecessary and everyone lives off of UBI, and maybe the discussion is moot. But assuming that won't be the case, would you want your children to grow up with the impression that when they grow up into adults there's no need to do any productive work, or have parents as role models who contribute meaningfully to society? Maybe I haven't thought it through, maybe I'm just not smart enough. I'm at a point in life where I could feasibly "lean FIRE" if I really want to, but for the sake of my child I'd rather continue to work. Which then leads to answering this post, my FI and retirement almost isn't about me, it's about my child/children. Or maybe that just means I'm that guy who said "I'm going to do a lot of parenting" then.
codesternews 5y ago
What are you doing on HN?
- lupire 5y ago
  Reading and commenting, apparently.
- CleverLikeAnOx 5y ago
  As someone in a similar boat (6 months into not working at this point), I still love hacker news. I am driven by curiosity above most else and this is the best forum on the internet by that measure (as far as I am aware).
  - jvanvleet 5y ago
    This is myself as well. HN is a kind of a National Geographic of technology to me.
- siva7 5y ago
  i've likely asked myself that question many times since the inception of HN
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" Great insight that is worth repeating. One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down on jobs they hate that consume too much of their time and energy, only because they think it will better enable them to be happy later. For the lucky few who can be early employees at unicorn startups, that might be true. For the average FIRE person working a $100-200K/year job, they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job and making a point of taking vacations and doing activities in their off time. Even if that means taking a paycut and delaying their target retirement date. You don't have to wait until FIRE to start taking vacations, doing hobbies, or working on projects. If a job is consuming so much of your life that you feel you don't have time to do anything else, it's time to reevaluate the job.
- balfirevic 5y ago
  > they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job 40hr/week is the unsustainable part.
  - yarcob 5y ago
    40h/week of work leaves very little time for household, kids, exercise, side projects, and relaxing. I think 20h/week is a more reasonable target if you want to enjoy things beside work. Of course it's okay to work 40h/week if you really want to, or even more, if you enjoy it, but you should really think hard about whether that's really what you want, or if it's just what your employer wants you to do.
    - daddylongstroke 5y ago
      This!! I've wanted to drop down to 18-20 hours TOPS for years. Being in tech, I haven't seen a single opportunity for this being a possibility. When I talk to my managers about it (mostly in large orgs, but even in smaller 12-people shops) they look at me like I'm out of my fucking mind. Response always is "no, you can't be productive enough in 18 hours to contribute meaningfully to the product".
mgh2 5y ago
We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.
- vlunkr 5y ago
  Isn't the post you're replying to evidence against this? They have financial independence, and now they are finding meaningful work. I agree that we need a sense of purpose for happiness/mental health, but why does that have to be "working for the man?".
  - mgh2 5y ago
    Why is "working for the man" so bad when it gives purpose in your life? The article showed how unsatisfied his wife was when she felt as "not going anywhere", I think she was trying to say that she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. As it is torture to keep someone in a room with no stimulation, it is the same with repetition and no change or progress. “Industry, thrift and self-control are not sought because they create wealth, but because they create character.” - Calvin Coolidge We need this aspect for personal development. Metaphor: https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4dda1e04a82d https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4d...
    - vlunkr 5y ago
      > why is "working for the man" so bad I don't think it is necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other paths to fulfillment. They may not be for you, but they exist. > it is the same with repetition and no change or progress. If someone chooses to retire and immediately enter a vegetative state, that's really their fault.
    - bumby 5y ago
      >she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. I think the flip side of this is that many people are so focused on progress and looking forward to the next goal line that they become unable to appreciate the moment and, ironically, happiness is always one more goal away. Recently, I’ve been reading books on Buddhism (specifically how it differs from many Western value systems) and it sheds some light on this. The same goes for the inability to be happy sans constant stimulation.
mikepurvis 5y ago
Having done it now for a year, it sounds like you're pretty happy with how it's going. Are you satisfied with what you've achieved? Or is part of the mindset shift that you're just not thinking in those terms any more and are looking only to the day to day? In my working life, I've only ever taken about a month off at a time, but every time I've taken a longer break like that, I end up ultimately feeling dissatisfied with myself. I go into it with what a I think is a reasonable list of chores/projects that I want to make progress on, but ended up just puttering around— paradoxically, I get a lot more done when I have short bursts of time and have to force myself to bite off a manageable chunk and actually see it through. I've heard people argue that a few weeks just isn't long enough to trigger productive restlessness, and that's why a sabbatical is more like 6-12 months. But this is what I worry about for myself if I were ever in a position to retire young.
- mym1990 5y ago
  I am a similar way and at least for me I feel somewhat programmed to be needing to do something or maybe even feeling the need for someone to tell me to do something so that I can feel like I am creating value(not at all saying you are like this, just a personal account). I am in a position where I can be unemployed with little consequence, but I'm afraid that the free time will just go to waste. And I think on a larger scale that is a big problem.
  - mikepurvis 5y ago
    For me, it's not even the "larger scale"— I'm well aware that the current economic structure allows for a small wealthy leisure class who wile away the days indulging themselves in socializing and consumption activities. And I know there are many who would love nothing more than to join that class and just travel, party, play video games, whatever. I just... yeah, don't find it satisfying when I've had small tastes of that life. I like to be able to look back at the journey and see how it led to growth in my skills and achievements I'm proud of showing off.
- zoba 5y ago
  I'm quite happy with the outcome so far. Though, my aims are humble. My intention for this period of life (however long it lasts) is to live 'organically' and observe the results. My primary observation is that I'm happy consistently - something that was inconceivable with my old style of X to Y to Z goal planning. In your second paragraph you mention trying to be as productive as possible during your time off. Seems like you'd be setting yourself up for disappointment there. If you instead approach that time off with 'whatever happens, happens' approach you'll be more forgiving of yourself and may actually be able to relax so you can be more productive later. The theory I'm exploring is that happiness is healthy. By living happily, perhaps I am repairing whatever damage I did when I was so intensely on the career grind (it was rewarding but, ultimately unhealthy in a burnout way). And, by doing that repair, perhaps I'll be better suited to be even more productive.
mym1990 5y ago
I think the prospect of being very financially stable changes the equation in such considerable ways. To me, the difficulty in finding 'happiness'(not sure if that is totally a thing) or purpose becomes an interesting endeavor AFTER you take the work/job away. I think after you take away the job(in favorable circumstances), you have the 'what now?' moment, and thats not an easy thing to answer. For most people that really isn't a viable option currently.
amishAmigo 5y ago
You live "among" them meaning "surrounded by" or "as a member of" their community?
- zoba 5y ago
  Surrounded by and interact with. I'm not Amish myself.
- fuzzer37 5y ago
  He means Amogus
legohead 5y ago
I know exactly what makes me happy -- playing video games, eating good food, living in a nice climate (CA or Hawaii), and traveling the world. Unfortunately my happiness comes with a price tag.
- david-gpu 5y ago
  It may be worth keeping an open mind. Perhaps there are many other things which would make you happy if you tried them, and they may not cost a lot. Lately I'm finding joy in all sorts of pursuits that I had never thought about. A willingness to try new things was necessary.
- sombremesa 5y ago
  Being wealthy is like learning a favorite restaurant recipe. You start making the same food everyday, because you love it, so why not? It doesn't take very long at all for the honeymoon to be over. So what exactly was making you happy there, when you could only eat that meal occasionally in that restaurant? Was it really the food?
- sergioisidoro 5y ago
  You can have nice weather and nice food for an affordable price tag outside of the US. you're probably leaving something out of the description of what makes you happy
- simmanian 5y ago
  I was exactly like this for a while, until I realized my happiness does not have to depend on anything. Like what the sibling comment says, if you keep an open mind and try things out, you'd be surprised to see what can help you achieve sustainable happiness.
- munificent 5y ago
  I think it's important to understand that "what makes you happy" is much more contextual than we realize. If you're sitting outside in the freezing cold, you might think that what makes you happy is "wearing big heavy coats and drinking cocoa". That's true right now because you're fucking cold. But get out of the cold and your happiness goals may change. Often, happiness is simply "what addresses the imbalances in my life right now?" Today, you're probably busy working a 9-5 (or longer). You spend much of your time overwhelmed by the complexity of your job, delaying gratification and doing things you don't want to do. You're stuck inside all day and working through the nicest months of the year. In that context, of course all you want to do is sit outside at a beach, play some leisurely videogames, and eat good meals. But that's because your life right now has a distinct absence of downtime, nature, and leisure. When you are retired, the entire context is different and thus what makes you happy will shift too. Once you no longer have a job, you'll likely find videogames boring and understimulating. When you start taking a walk every day in the woods, you might not crave moving to Hawaii quite as much. And when you have the time to cook and savor meals every evening, eating out loses some of its lustre. Whenever the situation of your life changes, expect your happiness goals to shift too.
low_common 5y ago
How do you "live amongst the Amish"? Sounds like you're contributing to their community in some ways ie. dam building. Did you buy any land from them or a home? Just renting? I always assumed that they're an insular community. Want to get down there sometime and try the food. PA Dutch food looks so good.
- abcc8 5y ago
  We are lucky enough to live in an area with a strong amish presence. Their food is amazing, going out to eat it is like eating a wonderful home cooked meal. Amish BBQ, while not as flashy as other styes, is also definitely worth a try. Amish burnt butter noodles are sublime and are my overall favorite... that and the fritters and pies.
  - carbonclan 5y ago
    Sounds interesting!
- zoba 5y ago
  I live around them, interact with them at their stores, etc. It's a rural area so people talk a lot more whenever you encounter them. The food is tasty, though it goes against what I consider healthy so I try not to eat too much of it.
- ta988 5y ago
  They are not that much insular and are, at least to outsiders, really nice people.
aboodman 5y ago
I noticed the same thing when I stopped working ft. I was surprisingly bad at predicting my own interests and what would make me feel happy day to day. It was almost as if I didn’t know myself, and in retrospect I suppose that was true. After several years I’ve started working again but in my own way (roci.dev). I’m a lot better at predicting what activities will feel good, and managing my time so that end of day/week I feel deeply good about how it was spent. Strongly recommend ^ approach of “rolling with it” for several years and trying not to pass judgement with you conscious mind on where your unconscious is taking you. Best of luck getting to know yourself.
jancsika 5y ago
I'm basically the opposite of you. There is a pile of merge requests I need to review when I get time. And the reason I want to review X, Y, and Z is because I personally desire to see improvements X, Y, and Z to the niche FOSS software I maintain. Funny thing is, we are on a forum named "Hacker News" and I'd speculate that I'm the outlier and yours is the common case.
- journey_16162 5y ago
  There's a difference between working on your own stuff vs. working purely to trade time for money as an employee. Sometimes you can have both I guess , but I think it's the exception, not the norm.
dangus 5y ago
A comment like this is privilege in a nutshell. Money to a certain point essentially buys the ability to be free and happy, and that’s why most people are “in the grind” so-to-speak. Being able to even think about making the mindset shift you describe is impossible for most people in the country let alone the world. The lifestyle you describe is out of reach for the median American making $40-60k a year with a modest amount of credit card debt and kids to feed. I have to wonder how you pay for your shelter, food, and health insurance? Is that from your unicorn startup money, or is that from your income from building dams? For most Americans, quitting their corporate job means spending something like 2-4x more for healthcare. It means exhausting a very short financial runway. Most Americans are one or two serious medical emergencies away from full blown bankruptcy. That’s the irony here: folks advocating for exotic life experiences like this don’t seem to realize that the bulk of the world isn’t living life in a materialistic and career-focused way by choice. We’ve all just got bills to pay and want to be able to afford to go to the doctor or get our kids education or buy gas to get to Grandma’s house. If you throw me a modest $5 million lump sum I’ll join you on your shift in mindset. But until then, sorry, I’ve got to get back to work.
- CleverLikeAnOx 5y ago
  For those that this lifestyle appeals to, it is possible in America to engineer your life so that it happens. Sure the median American is no where close to financial independence, but financial independence is attainable for most Americans given a couple decades of work if they are willing to change their definition of "enough." Personally, I reduced my target to a mere fraction of the $5 million you mentioned. Finally, I completely agree that this is privilege, but without any negative judgement therein. Privilege is a thing we should be trying to give to more and more people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- phaemon 5y ago
milliondollar 5y ago
I'm in a similar boat. Not outrageously rich, but rich enough that I won't spend it all before I die. Work in a highly lucrative industry, which bores the hell out of me. I took a couple years off. Built a house, moved in, then.... I was definitely hit with a lack of purpose. I'm back to work now at old career trying to figure out "what to do with my life" again. There was a Catch-22 for me, in that "working" at any organization for any normal sized paycheck just seemed ridiculous if it didn't 100% hit on all the "passion" buttons. And honestly, no organization will be free of BS that makes work work. So making that tradeoff became REALLY hard. So I decided that if I was going to work, I should just make a ton of money. At least the bank account fills while I search for the next thing.
- carbonclan 5y ago
  Purpose is so key! While I agree to the work life balance…. I have spent a good 6 years completely consumed 100% into work just coz I felt it was my calling! In the bargain lost out heavily in my personal life. But not sure if I regret that…. After that there was such a huge burnout, I’m still recuperating…. Is purpose overrated? Or does it put one off balance?
  - carbonclan 5y ago
    Today, I’ve changed my career drastically - moved frm industry to academia - taking one day at a time. And still unsure whr I’m headed. My earlier project-mgmt self would be agast to know the me today -
    - ta988 5y ago
      Good luck, I'm trying to go the other way.
  - milliondollar 5y ago
    I am starting to believe "purpose" as related to work is mostly a giant con. Sometimes we run it on ourselves. But we are all dust in the end. Does the project or business that we are working on really matter?
GeorgeTirebiter 5y ago
Building dams, eh? Are you somehow inspired by this little guy: https://web.mit.edu/graphicidentity/tim-the-beaver.html https://web.mit.edu/graphicidentity/tim-the-beaver.html
rubicon33 5y ago
This is EXACTLY why I am so hell bent on retiring early. I recognized this aspect of my being very early on in life. My interests come and go, but they are strong. I am capable of achieving anything when my mind is truly interested in it but unfortunately my mind grows bored with things eventually. In retirement, I would just pursue whatever interests me at the time! Whether its software, hardware, automotive, or just reading. That freedom is truly priceless. I only wish I too were 2nd at a unicorn startup ;)
- HellDunkel 5y ago
  You realize that X equals „work until you have enough to retire“, Y is „retire and find hobby“ and Z equals „pursue hobby“?
UncleOxidant 5y ago
I think I'm semi-retired at this point. It's taken over a year to get to the "What will make me happy?" stage. Initially I kept thinking that I needed to spend my downtime learning new technologies that would be marketable. Now I'm starting to let go of that idea and it's feeling better, though I'm still a bit afraid that maybe I'll fall through the cracks and not be employable again - but that's probably fine at this point in my life. There are a lot of ways you have to change your thinking as you transition to a retired or just less-work-focused state. Our culture causes us to invest a lot of our identity in work and I'm finding that it's taking a while to shift my thinking.
UncleOxidant 5y ago
> As an example, turns out I really enjoy building dams. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but this really has me wondering. How big of a dam are we talking here? Is it actually legal to build a private dam?
- hutzlibu 5y ago
  "Is it actually legal to build a private dam? " Not likely. Unless it is a very small stream.
- milliondollar 5y ago
  I owned a dam. Worst deal of my life, as it was regulated by the town, state, and feds. Touching anything on it required permits from multiple agencies at each of the above. Be careful doing ANYTHING with water, as that is regulated by feds, states, and ofen localities. Wetland regulations are extremely restrictive. And wetlands are often not wet! (Depending on where you live, state and local often try to "out green" each other by layering on even more restrictive regulations.)
AlbertCory 5y ago
I think this is a great comment. It's possible to overthink things (making charts with arrows, etc.) In the end, just going with the flow works out better than having a plan. YMMV. If you really want to do something, you'll keep thinking of it. I've been retired 4 years now. I wrote one novel ("Inventing the Future", on sale at Amazon!) and finished the first draft of another. But I didn't have any plan for this when I retired. I just started doing it and it felt right.
xikrib 5y ago
I'm in a similar situation; the company I worked at was acquired a couple of months before the pandemic. The sale gave me enough money to retire a few times over, 2 days after my 30th birthday. I initially went through a long period of guilt. I've tried angel investing, impact investing, doing hackathons, applying to fellowships and launching side-projects. I've realized that a lot of the skills I've gained in the last decade were built around generating money. Yet my happiness and fulfillment skills were under-developed. The most absurd part of it all is how little happiness I got from all that money. Meaning and purpose are things you have to make up. If you can find happiness in a day job, in some ways you're better off than the aimless millionaire. I'm lucky that I have a huge passion in music and have been focusing more on that lately. It's definitely weird for me to work on something without a direct financial incentive. Yet there are many people in the world, rich or poor, living for purposes outside money. I haven't really had too many people to talk about this with. But it feels good to share a bit. DMs open to those in similar boats
- zoba 5y ago
  I’d love to hear what you’ve been doing with music. I got a Minilogue XD and a couple Other smaller synths. My email is the crazy looking link in my profile, would love to hear from you.
powerapple 5y ago
That's why I work. Financial stability and being able to provide for my family would make me happy, at least happier than being poor. Things are expensive. Happiness of your wife and kids are even more expensive.
nicbou 5y ago
I'm in a similar situation, and I describe it as every day being Saturday. I don't want to waste my Saturday doing nothing, and I have a few obligations, but by and large, my days have no structure. I end up doing a bit of everything. I garden, cook, play in the garage, ride my motorcycle, go camping etc. Every once in a while, something grabs me and I'm free to pursue it. A few years ago, I joked that the American dream sucks, and that the Victorian dream is where it's at. I want to have enough free time to be a gentleman scientist, join societies and make art. Now I realise it's not that silly.

by zoba 5y ago

low_common 5y ago

Are you rich/have no kids? Because most people probably cannot relate to the life you're living right now.

low_common 5y ago
Edit: Sorry, I did not read the article before reading your comment. The point was "what are you retiring to?" I understand what you're saying now.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
TheSmiddy 5y ago
"I was 2nd employee at a unicorn startup" They're rich.
lupire 5y ago
I don't think the Amish are particularly rich or childless?
- hesdeadjim 5y ago
  This is where assumptions can get you in trouble. The Amish are extremely business savvy, shrewd negotiators, and have no issues being active members in the economy. They also own vast tracts of very valuable land (especially in Lancaster, PA). Combine that with being frugal and austere, and it's a recipe for wealth. For childcare, their community focus let's them share the burden amongst the larger group. Additionally, children are not nearly as coddled and are expected to contribute to the family's work, and help co-parent their siblings. Compare this to the average nuclear family: underpaid, barely any savings, most likely rents, and lucky if they have even one family member nearby that can share the childcare burden.
  - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
    I will say this, if there is one thing I can do for my child (other than learning proper money management), when the time is right I will help them with the down payment on a home. Holy crap it's so much more important than renting. It seems like a hassle, I know, but building generational equity gives you such a leg up in the world.
    - xur17 5y ago
      I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you. A house is a form of forced savings, which is why it works so well for people, but you absolutely can build up wealth while renting.
      - UnpossibleJim 5y ago
        It is for sure possible, no argument, but the actuality of it is relatively small, while the renters are putting in equity into someone else's pocket =/ Your "rent", as it were, goes towards something (even if a large portion of it is interest.. and extra payment a year towards the principal goes a long way).
godot 5y ago
Although you replied that you did not read the article first, I think you still do make a valid point. Here is an excerpt from the article: > Of course, some lucky people already know exactly what they’re retiring to, answers firmly in hand. > Examples: > It’s been a lifelong dream of mine to quit my current career and take something lower paying and more meaningful: teaching or contributing to a non-profit. > I’m going to do a lot of parenting. My kids can easily eat 14 hours a day, every day. The _second_ example here already calls out that it's going to be common to do parenting 14 hours a day if people retire early. For someone who has kids, it's pretty unlikely to be able to roll with life and see what comes up. It just isn't possible, with or without a job, being financially independent or not. And whether we like it or not, a large percentage of the population above 40 do have kids. This is purely my opinion, but I'm actually not sure that, for a child past 2 years old or so, if it's a good idea for a parent to be with their child 24/7. I think there's a lot of value in learning social interactions with other children in a daycare or preschool. I did this exact thing for 3 years and am transitioning the child to preschool at 3 years old, and it has been difficult. On top of it all, let's say your kids are school age, somewhere between 3 to 16. Let's say they go to school during the day, and you have free time during the day. There is another discussion to be had about your kids' mentality if they grow up with parents who don't need to work. Sure, maybe in the near future, in this next generation, we'll enter a society where work is unnecessary and everyone lives off of UBI, and maybe the discussion is moot. But assuming that won't be the case, would you want your children to grow up with the impression that when they grow up into adults there's no need to do any productive work, or have parents as role models who contribute meaningfully to society? Maybe I haven't thought it through, maybe I'm just not smart enough. I'm at a point in life where I could feasibly "lean FIRE" if I really want to, but for the sake of my child I'd rather continue to work. Which then leads to answering this post, my FI and retirement almost isn't about me, it's about my child/children. Or maybe that just means I'm that guy who said "I'm going to do a lot of parenting" then.

codesternews 5y ago

What are you doing on HN?

lupire 5y ago
Reading and commenting, apparently.
CleverLikeAnOx 5y ago
As someone in a similar boat (6 months into not working at this point), I still love hacker news. I am driven by curiosity above most else and this is the best forum on the internet by that measure (as far as I am aware).
- jvanvleet 5y ago
  This is myself as well. HN is a kind of a National Geographic of technology to me.
siva7 5y ago
i've likely asked myself that question many times since the inception of HN

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

> Previously my underlying approach to life looked like: "I will do X which will enable me to do Y so that I can finally do Z." I now approach my days with "What will make me happy?" Great insight that is worth repeating. One of my biggest problems with FIRE discussions is how much they reinforce the idea that retirement is a prerequisite for achieving happiness. This leads a lot of FIRE-minded people to double down on jobs they hate that consume too much of their time and energy, only because they think it will better enable them to be happy later. For the lucky few who can be early employees at unicorn startups, that might be true. For the average FIRE person working a $100-200K/year job, they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job and making a point of taking vacations and doing activities in their off time. Even if that means taking a paycut and delaying their target retirement date. You don't have to wait until FIRE to start taking vacations, doing hobbies, or working on projects. If a job is consuming so much of your life that you feel you don't have time to do anything else, it's time to reevaluate the job.

balfirevic 5y ago
> they might be better off scaling back to a sustainable 40hr/week job 40hr/week is the unsustainable part.
- yarcob 5y ago
  40h/week of work leaves very little time for household, kids, exercise, side projects, and relaxing. I think 20h/week is a more reasonable target if you want to enjoy things beside work. Of course it's okay to work 40h/week if you really want to, or even more, if you enjoy it, but you should really think hard about whether that's really what you want, or if it's just what your employer wants you to do.
  - daddylongstroke 5y ago
    This!! I've wanted to drop down to 18-20 hours TOPS for years. Being in tech, I haven't seen a single opportunity for this being a possibility. When I talk to my managers about it (mostly in large orgs, but even in smaller 12-people shops) they look at me like I'm out of my fucking mind. Response always is "no, you can't be productive enough in 18 hours to contribute meaningfully to the product".

mgh2 5y ago

We were built to work, to have purpose. Having meaningful work is key - this is what the FIRE movement misunderstood. By meaningful, I mean to someone other your yourself or your extended self (family). Our purpose is to serve others, not ourselves.

vlunkr 5y ago
Isn't the post you're replying to evidence against this? They have financial independence, and now they are finding meaningful work. I agree that we need a sense of purpose for happiness/mental health, but why does that have to be "working for the man?".
- mgh2 5y ago
  Why is "working for the man" so bad when it gives purpose in your life? The article showed how unsatisfied his wife was when she felt as "not going anywhere", I think she was trying to say that she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. As it is torture to keep someone in a room with no stimulation, it is the same with repetition and no change or progress. “Industry, thrift and self-control are not sought because they create wealth, but because they create character.” - Calvin Coolidge We need this aspect for personal development. Metaphor: https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4dda1e04a82d https://m-g-h.medium.com/disneys-strategy-against-netflix-4d...
  - vlunkr 5y ago
    > why is "working for the man" so bad I don't think it is necessarily bad, but that doesn't mean that there aren't other paths to fulfillment. They may not be for you, but they exist. > it is the same with repetition and no change or progress. If someone chooses to retire and immediately enter a vegetative state, that's really their fault.
  - bumby 5y ago
    >she does not feel any sort of progress or growth on any level. I think the flip side of this is that many people are so focused on progress and looking forward to the next goal line that they become unable to appreciate the moment and, ironically, happiness is always one more goal away. Recently, I’ve been reading books on Buddhism (specifically how it differs from many Western value systems) and it sheds some light on this. The same goes for the inability to be happy sans constant stimulation.

mikepurvis 5y ago

Having done it now for a year, it sounds like you're pretty happy with how it's going. Are you satisfied with what you've achieved? Or is part of the mindset shift that you're just not thinking in those terms any more and are looking only to the day to day? In my working life, I've only ever taken about a month off at a time, but every time I've taken a longer break like that, I end up ultimately feeling dissatisfied with myself. I go into it with what a I think is a reasonable list of chores/projects that I want to make progress on, but ended up just puttering around— paradoxically, I get a lot more done when I have short bursts of time and have to force myself to bite off a manageable chunk and actually see it through. I've heard people argue that a few weeks just isn't long enough to trigger productive restlessness, and that's why a sabbatical is more like 6-12 months. But this is what I worry about for myself if I were ever in a position to retire young.

mym1990 5y ago
I am a similar way and at least for me I feel somewhat programmed to be needing to do something or maybe even feeling the need for someone to tell me to do something so that I can feel like I am creating value(not at all saying you are like this, just a personal account). I am in a position where I can be unemployed with little consequence, but I'm afraid that the free time will just go to waste. And I think on a larger scale that is a big problem.
- mikepurvis 5y ago
  For me, it's not even the "larger scale"— I'm well aware that the current economic structure allows for a small wealthy leisure class who wile away the days indulging themselves in socializing and consumption activities. And I know there are many who would love nothing more than to join that class and just travel, party, play video games, whatever. I just... yeah, don't find it satisfying when I've had small tastes of that life. I like to be able to look back at the journey and see how it led to growth in my skills and achievements I'm proud of showing off.
zoba 5y ago
I'm quite happy with the outcome so far. Though, my aims are humble. My intention for this period of life (however long it lasts) is to live 'organically' and observe the results. My primary observation is that I'm happy consistently - something that was inconceivable with my old style of X to Y to Z goal planning. In your second paragraph you mention trying to be as productive as possible during your time off. Seems like you'd be setting yourself up for disappointment there. If you instead approach that time off with 'whatever happens, happens' approach you'll be more forgiving of yourself and may actually be able to relax so you can be more productive later. The theory I'm exploring is that happiness is healthy. By living happily, perhaps I am repairing whatever damage I did when I was so intensely on the career grind (it was rewarding but, ultimately unhealthy in a burnout way). And, by doing that repair, perhaps I'll be better suited to be even more productive.

mym1990 5y ago

I think the prospect of being very financially stable changes the equation in such considerable ways. To me, the difficulty in finding 'happiness'(not sure if that is totally a thing) or purpose becomes an interesting endeavor AFTER you take the work/job away. I think after you take away the job(in favorable circumstances), you have the 'what now?' moment, and thats not an easy thing to answer. For most people that really isn't a viable option currently.

amishAmigo 5y ago

You live "among" them meaning "surrounded by" or "as a member of" their community?

zoba 5y ago
Surrounded by and interact with. I'm not Amish myself.
fuzzer37 5y ago
He means Amogus

legohead 5y ago

I know exactly what makes me happy -- playing video games, eating good food, living in a nice climate (CA or Hawaii), and traveling the world. Unfortunately my happiness comes with a price tag.

david-gpu 5y ago
It may be worth keeping an open mind. Perhaps there are many other things which would make you happy if you tried them, and they may not cost a lot. Lately I'm finding joy in all sorts of pursuits that I had never thought about. A willingness to try new things was necessary.
sombremesa 5y ago
Being wealthy is like learning a favorite restaurant recipe. You start making the same food everyday, because you love it, so why not? It doesn't take very long at all for the honeymoon to be over. So what exactly was making you happy there, when you could only eat that meal occasionally in that restaurant? Was it really the food?
sergioisidoro 5y ago
You can have nice weather and nice food for an affordable price tag outside of the US. you're probably leaving something out of the description of what makes you happy
simmanian 5y ago
I was exactly like this for a while, until I realized my happiness does not have to depend on anything. Like what the sibling comment says, if you keep an open mind and try things out, you'd be surprised to see what can help you achieve sustainable happiness.
munificent 5y ago
I think it's important to understand that "what makes you happy" is much more contextual than we realize. If you're sitting outside in the freezing cold, you might think that what makes you happy is "wearing big heavy coats and drinking cocoa". That's true right now because you're fucking cold. But get out of the cold and your happiness goals may change. Often, happiness is simply "what addresses the imbalances in my life right now?" Today, you're probably busy working a 9-5 (or longer). You spend much of your time overwhelmed by the complexity of your job, delaying gratification and doing things you don't want to do. You're stuck inside all day and working through the nicest months of the year. In that context, of course all you want to do is sit outside at a beach, play some leisurely videogames, and eat good meals. But that's because your life right now has a distinct absence of downtime, nature, and leisure. When you are retired, the entire context is different and thus what makes you happy will shift too. Once you no longer have a job, you'll likely find videogames boring and understimulating. When you start taking a walk every day in the woods, you might not crave moving to Hawaii quite as much. And when you have the time to cook and savor meals every evening, eating out loses some of its lustre. Whenever the situation of your life changes, expect your happiness goals to shift too.

low_common 5y ago

How do you "live amongst the Amish"? Sounds like you're contributing to their community in some ways ie. dam building. Did you buy any land from them or a home? Just renting? I always assumed that they're an insular community. Want to get down there sometime and try the food. PA Dutch food looks so good.

abcc8 5y ago
We are lucky enough to live in an area with a strong amish presence. Their food is amazing, going out to eat it is like eating a wonderful home cooked meal. Amish BBQ, while not as flashy as other styes, is also definitely worth a try. Amish burnt butter noodles are sublime and are my overall favorite... that and the fritters and pies.
- carbonclan 5y ago
  Sounds interesting!
zoba 5y ago
I live around them, interact with them at their stores, etc. It's a rural area so people talk a lot more whenever you encounter them. The food is tasty, though it goes against what I consider healthy so I try not to eat too much of it.
ta988 5y ago
They are not that much insular and are, at least to outsiders, really nice people.

aboodman 5y ago

I noticed the same thing when I stopped working ft. I was surprisingly bad at predicting my own interests and what would make me feel happy day to day. It was almost as if I didn’t know myself, and in retrospect I suppose that was true. After several years I’ve started working again but in my own way (roci.dev). I’m a lot better at predicting what activities will feel good, and managing my time so that end of day/week I feel deeply good about how it was spent. Strongly recommend ^ approach of “rolling with it” for several years and trying not to pass judgement with you conscious mind on where your unconscious is taking you. Best of luck getting to know yourself.

jancsika 5y ago

I'm basically the opposite of you. There is a pile of merge requests I need to review when I get time. And the reason I want to review X, Y, and Z is because I personally desire to see improvements X, Y, and Z to the niche FOSS software I maintain. Funny thing is, we are on a forum named "Hacker News" and I'd speculate that I'm the outlier and yours is the common case.

journey_16162 5y ago
There's a difference between working on your own stuff vs. working purely to trade time for money as an employee. Sometimes you can have both I guess , but I think it's the exception, not the norm.

dangus 5y ago

A comment like this is privilege in a nutshell. Money to a certain point essentially buys the ability to be free and happy, and that’s why most people are “in the grind” so-to-speak. Being able to even think about making the mindset shift you describe is impossible for most people in the country let alone the world. The lifestyle you describe is out of reach for the median American making $40-60k a year with a modest amount of credit card debt and kids to feed. I have to wonder how you pay for your shelter, food, and health insurance? Is that from your unicorn startup money, or is that from your income from building dams? For most Americans, quitting their corporate job means spending something like 2-4x more for healthcare. It means exhausting a very short financial runway. Most Americans are one or two serious medical emergencies away from full blown bankruptcy. That’s the irony here: folks advocating for exotic life experiences like this don’t seem to realize that the bulk of the world isn’t living life in a materialistic and career-focused way by choice. We’ve all just got bills to pay and want to be able to afford to go to the doctor or get our kids education or buy gas to get to Grandma’s house. If you throw me a modest $5 million lump sum I’ll join you on your shift in mindset. But until then, sorry, I’ve got to get back to work.

CleverLikeAnOx 5y ago
For those that this lifestyle appeals to, it is possible in America to engineer your life so that it happens. Sure the median American is no where close to financial independence, but financial independence is attainable for most Americans given a couple decades of work if they are willing to change their definition of "enough." Personally, I reduced my target to a mere fraction of the $5 million you mentioned. Finally, I completely agree that this is privilege, but without any negative judgement therein. Privilege is a thing we should be trying to give to more and more people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
phaemon 5y ago

milliondollar 5y ago

I'm in a similar boat. Not outrageously rich, but rich enough that I won't spend it all before I die. Work in a highly lucrative industry, which bores the hell out of me. I took a couple years off. Built a house, moved in, then.... I was definitely hit with a lack of purpose. I'm back to work now at old career trying to figure out "what to do with my life" again. There was a Catch-22 for me, in that "working" at any organization for any normal sized paycheck just seemed ridiculous if it didn't 100% hit on all the "passion" buttons. And honestly, no organization will be free of BS that makes work work. So making that tradeoff became REALLY hard. So I decided that if I was going to work, I should just make a ton of money. At least the bank account fills while I search for the next thing.

carbonclan 5y ago
Purpose is so key! While I agree to the work life balance…. I have spent a good 6 years completely consumed 100% into work just coz I felt it was my calling! In the bargain lost out heavily in my personal life. But not sure if I regret that…. After that there was such a huge burnout, I’m still recuperating…. Is purpose overrated? Or does it put one off balance?
- carbonclan 5y ago
  Today, I’ve changed my career drastically - moved frm industry to academia - taking one day at a time. And still unsure whr I’m headed. My earlier project-mgmt self would be agast to know the me today -
  - ta988 5y ago
    Good luck, I'm trying to go the other way.
- milliondollar 5y ago
  I am starting to believe "purpose" as related to work is mostly a giant con. Sometimes we run it on ourselves. But we are all dust in the end. Does the project or business that we are working on really matter?

GeorgeTirebiter 5y ago

Building dams, eh? Are you somehow inspired by this little guy: https://web.mit.edu/graphicidentity/tim-the-beaver.html https://web.mit.edu/graphicidentity/tim-the-beaver.html

rubicon33 5y ago

This is EXACTLY why I am so hell bent on retiring early. I recognized this aspect of my being very early on in life. My interests come and go, but they are strong. I am capable of achieving anything when my mind is truly interested in it but unfortunately my mind grows bored with things eventually. In retirement, I would just pursue whatever interests me at the time! Whether its software, hardware, automotive, or just reading. That freedom is truly priceless. I only wish I too were 2nd at a unicorn startup ;)

HellDunkel 5y ago
You realize that X equals „work until you have enough to retire“, Y is „retire and find hobby“ and Z equals „pursue hobby“?

UncleOxidant 5y ago

I think I'm semi-retired at this point. It's taken over a year to get to the "What will make me happy?" stage. Initially I kept thinking that I needed to spend my downtime learning new technologies that would be marketable. Now I'm starting to let go of that idea and it's feeling better, though I'm still a bit afraid that maybe I'll fall through the cracks and not be employable again - but that's probably fine at this point in my life. There are a lot of ways you have to change your thinking as you transition to a retired or just less-work-focused state. Our culture causes us to invest a lot of our identity in work and I'm finding that it's taking a while to shift my thinking.

UncleOxidant 5y ago

> As an example, turns out I really enjoy building dams. Sorry to go off on a tangent, but this really has me wondering. How big of a dam are we talking here? Is it actually legal to build a private dam?

hutzlibu 5y ago
"Is it actually legal to build a private dam? " Not likely. Unless it is a very small stream.
milliondollar 5y ago
I owned a dam. Worst deal of my life, as it was regulated by the town, state, and feds. Touching anything on it required permits from multiple agencies at each of the above. Be careful doing ANYTHING with water, as that is regulated by feds, states, and ofen localities. Wetland regulations are extremely restrictive. And wetlands are often not wet! (Depending on where you live, state and local often try to "out green" each other by layering on even more restrictive regulations.)

AlbertCory 5y ago

I think this is a great comment. It's possible to overthink things (making charts with arrows, etc.) In the end, just going with the flow works out better than having a plan. YMMV. If you really want to do something, you'll keep thinking of it. I've been retired 4 years now. I wrote one novel ("Inventing the Future", on sale at Amazon!) and finished the first draft of another. But I didn't have any plan for this when I retired. I just started doing it and it felt right.

xikrib 5y ago

I'm in a similar situation; the company I worked at was acquired a couple of months before the pandemic. The sale gave me enough money to retire a few times over, 2 days after my 30th birthday. I initially went through a long period of guilt. I've tried angel investing, impact investing, doing hackathons, applying to fellowships and launching side-projects. I've realized that a lot of the skills I've gained in the last decade were built around generating money. Yet my happiness and fulfillment skills were under-developed. The most absurd part of it all is how little happiness I got from all that money. Meaning and purpose are things you have to make up. If you can find happiness in a day job, in some ways you're better off than the aimless millionaire. I'm lucky that I have a huge passion in music and have been focusing more on that lately. It's definitely weird for me to work on something without a direct financial incentive. Yet there are many people in the world, rich or poor, living for purposes outside money. I haven't really had too many people to talk about this with. But it feels good to share a bit. DMs open to those in similar boats

zoba 5y ago
I’d love to hear what you’ve been doing with music. I got a Minilogue XD and a couple Other smaller synths. My email is the crazy looking link in my profile, would love to hear from you.

powerapple 5y ago

That's why I work. Financial stability and being able to provide for my family would make me happy, at least happier than being poor. Things are expensive. Happiness of your wife and kids are even more expensive.

nicbou 5y ago

I'm in a similar situation, and I describe it as every day being Saturday. I don't want to waste my Saturday doing nothing, and I have a few obligations, but by and large, my days have no structure. I end up doing a bit of everything. I garden, cook, play in the garage, ride my motorcycle, go camping etc. Every once in a while, something grabs me and I'm free to pursue it. A few years ago, I joked that the American dream sucks, and that the Victorian dream is where it's at. I want to have enough free time to be a gentleman scientist, join societies and make art. Now I realise it's not that silly.