15 ms·

Senior Google exec opposes remote work, moves to New Zealand to work remotely

354 points by throwawaysea 5y ago

ipsum2 5y ago
Of course, the title is so clickbait-y to be completely false, as refuted in the article: > A Google spokesperson told Insider that Hölzle never opposed remote work for employees who didn't have a certain seniority level or wouldn't be assigned to an office.
- warent 5y ago
  Not that you can blame anyone for missing it; there are so many negatives in that text I'm having a hard time decoding what it's even saying... In other words, Hölzle had a neutral stance?
  - erpellan 5y ago
    It reads like the spokesperson specifically and precisely refuted the claim put to them exactly as it was stated. We can infer nothing - it might be that he thinks nobody should work remotely, or everyone should.
- bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  A few lines before that: He [Hölzle] strongly opposed remote work for Google employees who didn't have a certain seniority level or wouldn't be assigned to an office, a resigning employee told CNET. So, who do we want to believe?
  - dorianmariefr 5y ago
    both say that it's for senior employees and those without an office
  - sangnoir 5y ago
    > So, who do we want to believe? They are both saying the same thing: Hölzle opposes the peasants working from home. The spokesperson is being deliberately opaque/circumspect by saying Hölzle never opposed senior folk (like him) working from home, but the level of seniority is left undefined.
    - pseudalopex 5y ago
      The article said the spokesperson said Hölzle never opposed what the resigning employee said Hölzle strongly opposed. And it quoted the spokesperson saying all employees are eligible to apply for remote.
      - mcguire 5y ago
        "Apply" is a neat word. Anyone can apply for anything. Now, whether it's approved or not...
- boardwaalk 5y ago
  An employee who quit claims the opposite. Do you always believe spokespersons? Yikes.
  - paxys 5y ago
    Do you always believe disgruntled ex-employees?
    - delroth 5y ago
      I still work at Google and can confirm that. From everything I've heard, Urs has strongly opposed remote work for years, causing multiple talented and senior people to quit.
- stefan_ 5y ago
  Yeah, there are regular emails at Google from low-level employees telling all about how they are relocating to Cambodia for remote work, seeing how they like it, but will occasionally drop in via plane. I'm getting so many relocation experiment updates I've had to mute the keyword! Clearly, these are privileges available to all. It's wrong to even call them a privilege. Life is one big adventure.
- mdoms 5y ago
  Hmmmm who to believe, someone who was affected by the policy or the PR arm of the company involved.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- vanusa 5y ago
  The very sentence you quote clearly says that the overall claim is at least partially true -- indeed, most likely true for the majority of reports in his organization. So it is completely false to say that it is "completely false".
- brown9-2 5y ago
  “or wouldn't be assigned to an office” seems to be doing a lot here to obscure the true meaning
  - chihuahua 5y ago
    yes, I don't know what that's supposed to mean. If you're not assigned to an office, and you're not allowed to work from home, where do you work?
- dilyevsky 5y ago
  Bullshit! When i worked there he was very vocal about supposed benefits of open space and onsite-only working arrangements.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
onion2k 5y ago
It doesn't seem that bad to believe lower level staff should have different working environments to higher level staff. I don't believe it's particularly hypocritical of my boss to have more flexibility in the way he works than I enjoy.
- Graffur 5y ago
  What's your thought process here? Is it related to the job role or you think underlings should just be treated differently/worse?
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    I mean, that is how it already works in the workplace. More senior positions are better compensated, including perks. I personally think individuals should have the choice to work locally or remotely, if it doesn't considerably impact their work (ie a job that doesn't require a lot of face to face time), but the idea that more senior people get better options really doesn't need to be justified as a deviation from the norm.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - the_other 5y ago
      It really does.
  - the_jeremy 5y ago
    I know that as a junior engineer (~ first two years) I needed a lot more direction and handholding, and that is much easier to get in an office than remotely.
    - viraptor 5y ago
      This is really cultural / company specific. I spent days on screenshare coding with fresh team members. Literally had days of that in my schedule. If it matters for the company/management it's not harder to do remotely.
mikeryan 5y ago
Interesting stance. My wife in Senior management, side for one of the largest employers in CA (non-tech) they've been very careful on allowing for any sort of changes to senior management's remote work policies until they have sorted it with the rank-and-file. While I can see an argument for having to reach a level of seniority to achieve the ability to work remotely I'd also argue that there's a similar bar that hits at the most Senior levels.
Taniwha 5y ago
Of course NZ is not open to people just moving here right now - in general only citizens, permanent residents and Australians from some Aussie states have been allowed in since the beginning of Covid. We're not taking tourists or new immigrants at this time. There are some exceptions, not easy to get, a very small number of rich people (14) making large investments here are being let in, I assume he and his wife are buying there way in.
- rsstack 5y ago
  A close friend of mine immigrated to NZ in April on a work visa with his family. He's not rich at all, just a practicing doctor (not research). There seem to be exceptions other than buying your way in.
  - Taniwha 5y ago
    Yes we're taking a small number of people with specifically needed skills (like doctors) on a case by case basis - "Google Executive" is unlikely to be one of these
    - whizzter 5y ago
      The article did say that this was planned since before the pandemic, so maybe some prior decision still applies?
    - Taniwha 5y ago
      We've essentially put all previous immigration processing on hold since Covid - our mandatory quarantine is currently full through November for just citizens returning home
      - roca 5y ago
        I wonder how many of those MIQ bookings are citizens returning home from non-essential overseas trips. I think we should probably be making those trips a lot harder/more expensive and using those MIQ slots for more compassionate or business grounds.
notyourwork 5y ago
Headline sounds like clickbait. The premise is that senior level employees get more freedom. It's not really that surprising but I can see how that would be frustrating to some.
foobarbazetc 5y ago
I just want to know how he's getting into NZ since the border is closed to non-citizens and people who can't prove existing residency. Asking for a friend, who's me, also trying to move to NZ. :)
- bioinformatics 5y ago
  Is your friend a FAANG exec? If not, I am sorry.
  - foobarbazetc 5y ago
    Even FAANG exec's aren't allowed in, last time I checked. NZ doesn't care about that sort of thing. Only if you have $$$ to put in somewhere. But maybe things got loosened up a little bit lately, pre-Delta, plus we don't know where Urs has citizenship.
    - paxys 5y ago
      > Only if you have $$$ to put in somewhere. Which FAANG execs do
    - plantain 5y ago
      >NZ doesn't care about that sort of thing. Are we thinking of the same NZ? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-coronavirus-wealthy-investors-due-to-arrive-on-new-border-exemption/E6SRPTAATZ7C3TIU2WKVYZ3FRQ/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-coronavirus-wea... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446151/border-exemptions-visas-approved-for-14-wealthy-investors https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446151/border-exemptions...
- threeseed 5y ago
  In most countries the minister responsible for border control will have wide discretion about who is allowed in and out. This means that if you’re politically well connected it can be trivial to get the necessary approvals. But for everyone else it will be extremely difficult, especially for countries like Australia and NZ which have very low vaccination rates.
drewg123 5y ago
I worked in this guy's org as an L5 & L6. Opposition to remote work is the primary reason I left Google in 2015. Its also one of the reasons we lost out on a number of good internal transfers. We had one amazing guy. World famous, luminary in his field, who lived in Livermore who had a deal to WFH 2-3 days a week who turned down a job in our org because he would have lost that deal & would have had to commute from Livermore every day. EDIT: To be clear, the opposition to remote work that impacted me came from the VP immediately above me. It is certainly possible that other forks on the org chart under different VPs were different. I never specifically talked to this person and got his views on remote work.
- vl 5y ago
  Urs is an engineer who imagines that he can run business and manage people, neither of which is actually true.
  - justicezyx 5y ago
    Urs is kind of quite assured of himself about a lot of technical decisions. Probably because he blueprinted TI, and contributed directly to some of the key decisions (warehouse-scale computer, as one example, although I am not sure if he or Luiz is more principal). He largely no longer made any good decision since the google plus era? I read somewhere it states that Urs was behind the push of google plus. Urs missed Cloud. Half-heartedly built GAE, which is technically superior, but mediocrely implemented. Urs decided to defund internal development, in order to boost Cloud, after realizing google was years behind. That was a laughable technical decision. Personally, Urs shows some form of personal distaste towards a few old but still working systems, and tried to make them disappear by cutting off their resources. borgcfg was one of them. Another evidence of Urs losing touch of the technical reality. borgcfg code is right behind C++, Java, the 3rd most human written code in Google. Make it disappear by cutting off its resources is essentially making almost every engineer suffer at Google... (I am behind the effort to revitalize borgcfg, and experienced the ridiculousness behind this view).
    - Arainach 5y ago
bellyfullofbac 5y ago
Irrelevant detail: if he lives in NZ and works on California time, California's 9AM happens at 4AM his time, and California's 5PM is his 12 noon. At least with the current clock with daylight savings. Seems like a sweet gig, wake up early, finish by lunch time.
- qbasic_forever 5y ago
  As a senior executive the wall time really doesn't matter to his output or work. He is expected and very likely making decisions and working/replying to issues all hours he is awake. He isn't being measured on something like 'amount of code committed', he's being measured by how effective his entire organization is performing. People in his org are relying on him to be the arbiter and decision maker that unblock and move forward the organization.
  - ultimoo 5y ago
    I've always wondered this about senior execs. As an IC I could easily unplug at 5p every day. Now, as a manager of managers I have to force myself to unplug for a couple hours each night to maintain some sanity but I'm always thinking and noodling about work in some capacity when I'm awake. I can no longer tell whether this is due to how the pandemic has changed work culture or whether it was always like this. But I imagine senior execs who run orgs spanning thousands of engineers are always plugged in, even if they're great at delegating.
    - cgio 5y ago
      Yes. Not a senior exec myself but worked as an exec assistant with glorified title for a couple and they were plugged in at any time, all days (Sunday a bit less). Their only balance was a slightly more generous leave (about 2 months per year). Some of the work is a bit less taxing, lots of meetings, calls with interesting people, as long as things are going well. Some is really boring administrative work. I was doing the boring parts that I could, and was a fly on the wall for the rest, and still they could not delegate most of it to me or others just by the nature of it.
asadlionpk 5y ago
Just to point out, Urs Hölzle was the employee no. 8 at Google. Why are the lowly minions so pissed, he can work from wherever he wants, or not!
- pbourke 5y ago
  Hypocrisy is not an endearing leadership trait
  - asadlionpk 5y ago
    Sure but does employee no. xxx,xxx have so much of their head up their arse that they feel entitled to deserve equal working benefits as The 8th Googler?
    - untererdisch 5y ago
      Yes
- selcuka 5y ago
  Of course he can work from wherever he wants. The problem is, if he thinks that remote working is bad, he shouldn't do it either.
  - chii 5y ago
    he thinks it's bad for other engineers under him - but not for himself, since he can trust himself to do the work properly.
    - Peritract 5y ago
      If he doesn't trust the engineers under him to work without constant supervision, then he has a huge recruitment/management issue to deal with.
- nr2x 5y ago
  His "fuck you" money has its own "fuck you" money...but if he doesn't want to work in the same circumstances as everybody else, why not just retire?
devoutsalsa 5y ago
Conspiracy theory... the real reason companies want you working on site is because they know you know they'll notice if you take off too much time to interview other places.
- paxys 5y ago
  People don't take time off for interviews, they fall sick or have mysterious appointments. And employers in that position don't really care, because it's better to let the employee leave voluntarily than to fire them and have to go through the entire HR process and pay unemployment.
  - verall 5y ago
    Yes, and employees that are actively trying to leave (different than passively interviewing for drive-by opportunities) are probably putting in minimum input, maybe less. It's like 3-6mo to fire a software engineer, and its a ton of work. If they don't like it here, let them leave.
    - 55555 5y ago
      Some companies will even give you a bonus at any time to quit.
perihelions 5y ago
For some context, here's the current situation for New Zealand citizens attempting to enter New Zealand (according to newspapers -- I'm not from there): >"The demand is so high, and the supply so scarce, that any rooms that become available disappear within seconds. Dates are released completely randomly and can appear any time of the day or night, and there's no queue." >"It makes it close to impossible for the average New Zealander to get home," said Chris Ruscoe, currently in Tennessee, about the high demand and the software enabling people to secure rooms so quickly." >"The difficulty and frustration and desperation that these folks are feeling, including me - who tried for three weeks, 18-plus hours a day and got nowhere." https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446516/tech-savvy-kiwis-able-to-use-scripts-to-snap-up-miq-spots-before-others https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446516/tech-savvy-kiwis-... ("Tech-savvy Kiwis able to use scripts to snap up MIQ spots before others")
- throwawayay02 5y ago
  I don't understand, there are barriers of entry into NZ for NZ citizens? What? How, what?
  - perihelions 5y ago
    * Entry means extended hotel quarantine * Limited supply of state-managed quarantine slots * Additional high friction from the digital application process + people gaming it (Per the article: signing up isn't a FIFO queue, it's "something shows up on a website & the first entity that clicks it wins")
  - chrfrasco 5y ago
    The limiting factor is managed isolation. You can return if there are flights from where you are currently, but you need to secure a spot in managed isolation first (2 weeks in a hotel). https://www.miq.govt.nz/travel-to-new-zealand/secure-your-place-in-managed-isolation/ https://www.miq.govt.nz/travel-to-new-zealand/secure-your-pl...
    - neither_color 5y ago
alexaholic 5y ago
If senior levels all exercise their option to work remotely, then who’s going to watch all the underlings in the office?
- planet-and-halo 5y ago
  The machines
- akomtu 5y ago
  The middle managers.
drewda 5y ago
This was originally reported by CNET (with additional context), so let me encourage folks to give them your clicks instead: https://www.cnet.com/news/googles-hypocritical-remote-work-policies-anger-employees/ https://www.cnet.com/news/googles-hypocritical-remote-work-p...
machinehermiter 5y ago
I just don't think smart companies can afford to force the employees back to the office right now. It does feel like some kind of worker revolt. Literally everyone I know wants to quit or do something else. Not like we are talking independent variables here either. If you are already thinking about quitting and your co-worker quits obviously the chance you quit goes way up since your job probably just got way shittier. I say this as someone who just went back to the office 2 days ago and I love it. Happiness to me is not sitting at home all day with as little interaction as possible. I think companies are just going to have to play ball with this in the near term as I don't know how they can afford not to.
- themolecularman 5y ago
  What do you think the long term impact will be? The company I work for may have adapted to remote work by noticing they didn't need the Bay Area talent pool. In the past few weeks offices opened in Mexico City and elsewhere for engineering.
disabled 5y ago
The big question here is how Senior Google executive Urs Hölzle managed to get a "remote work visa" from the government of New Zealand. It reminds me of the "special treatment" that Peter Thiel got, where he got New Zealand citizenship after spending only 12 days in New Zealand [1]. It is almost non-existent in the western world to be able to get a remote-work visa (minus Croatia and Czech Republic--both countries are part of the European Union and therefore become "westernized" quickly after accession). Yes, you can technically get _self-employment_, non-remote work visas in many European Union countries. But, the point and intent of such visas is that you contribute to their economy, assimilate, learn the local language, and eventually become a functioning contributing citizen in their society. The hypocrisy of the situation around remote work makes me angry, as I am disabled and I require remote work as an accommodation. I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system, plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin-dependent). I should also point out something else unfair. I am a dual US|EU (Croatian) citizen who works part-time remotely as a contractor for a US-based company in Croatia, while studying for her masters degree in electrical engineering full time. Because I am an EU citizen, I can work in 30+ countries remotely, outside of the United States, while essentially getting paid more (compared to the locals and most other European Union citizens) for just having US citizenship and related credentials. I basically live like a queen in Croatia. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-gave-peter-thiel-citizenship-after-spending-just-12-days-there https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-ga...
- roca 5y ago
  That's a good question. However, as a NZer, I think it's a pretty good deal for NZ to admit someone like Hölzle even if he only stays here for a year. For sure he will contribute to the economy by spending significant amounts (we have a sales tax he can't evade), and we should be able to collect income tax too. It's also good for our tech industry to have people like him around.
  - disabled 5y ago
    More likely than not (from what I have researched online in the past 20 minutes or so) what was done for Urs was likely a form of corruption. It also appears like a form of corruption, on the surface. You do not want these people in your country. Trust me. I am saying this as an American. These are the kind of people who will eviscerate your government from the inside out, just in general. They will also ruin pension programs for the average person. They have contempt for things like government and pensions and they will fight tooth and nail to ruin them. They have a libertarian mindset. These are the kind of people who exploit others, in so many ways that it can be written into multiple books. The short term payoff is not worth it. Trust me.
ydnaclementine 5y ago
Remote for me but not for thee
mcguire 5y ago
One thing missing from the article: what evidence is there he opposed remote work? The article says, "A Google spokesperson told Insider that Hölzle never opposed remote work for employees who didn't have a certain seniority level or wouldn't be assigned to an office." which is more negatives than I'm strictly comfortable with.
thrower123 5y ago
The hypocrisy is always stunning. The push to reopen my office is led by our COO... who is at the office like four hours a week, and otherwise works from home.
tibbydudeza 5y ago
All animals are equal - some are more equal than others.
MrDresden 5y ago
I have never understood why these C-suite types feel like they need to share their lives and experiences with employees. Who truly cares? My current employeer, in europe, has a new c-suite figure from abroad who likes to regale us with tales of his life at every meeting. This person is good at their jobs, but this behaviour is just buying them ridicule from the employees. Get it through your head C-suites. We do not care, as we do not know you closely enough (as we do not work with you).
- wepple 5y ago
  This type of comms internally is simply a respectful notification that you won’t see someone on campus or be able to book in-person meetings. Someone as high profile as Urs making this kind of move and not letting his team know would create infinite tensions. The fact that it made a CNET article and then HN discussion isn’t the execs fault, if anything you’re feeding the fire by adding to the discussion
  - MrDresden 5y ago
    I am not talking about the internal comms, as obviously those are required and make perfect sense to send to who ever might interact with him on a regular basis. It is this little tidbit that caused me to write that comment: "If things go well, we may decide to stay longer," he continued in the memo. "I'm looking forward to this adventure and to sharing the results of our relocation 'experiment' with you." In the light of having stood in the way of others doing exactly what he was doing, this comment leaves an even worse taste than it would have otherwise.
    - johnnyanmac 5y ago
      humans, even billionares, are still social creatures. Same reason people share their family or sometimes personal details on team slack channels, even if I personally wouldn't tell anyone past immediate co-workers I affect. Maybe not the best choice of words, but I don't think there's as much smoke here as people on social media are making of it outside your typical mega rich person not being in touch with the not mega rich. But empathy is a much bigger problem than the tech industry.
refurb 5y ago
This article’s title is a click-bait masterpiece. Big tech company? Check Timely topic of remote work? Check Element of hypocrisy to stoke outrage? Check
listenallyall 5y ago
The only source for the claim that he opposed remote work is "a resigning employee told CNET." Show me an email, a memo, a video of a speech, something, anything... or don't hide behind anonymity.
badcoderman 5y ago
I've been interviewing a ton of Googlers since my company (Salesforce) has a pretty good remote work policy going forward. We don't pay as well but probably the only big tech company with better WLB.
holografix 5y ago
I hope beautiful, pristine, safe, friendly, equitable New Zealand doesn’t continue to evolve into a haven for the very rich. I’d like to ask Urs why NZ? Why now? He reaped the maximum financial benefit of living in a dysfunctional society while paying little tax. Is the US too unstable for you now? Too much poverty? Too polluted? Fires in California too wild? Homeless is San Francisco too numerous?
miked85 5y ago
He sounds like he is totally cut out to be a politician.

354 points by throwawaysea 5y ago

Of course, the title is so clickbait-y to be completely false, as refuted in the article: > A Google spokesperson told Insider that Hölzle never opposed remote work for employees who didn't have a certain seniority level or wouldn't be assigned to an office.

warent 5y ago
Not that you can blame anyone for missing it; there are so many negatives in that text I'm having a hard time decoding what it's even saying... In other words, Hölzle had a neutral stance?
- erpellan 5y ago
  It reads like the spokesperson specifically and precisely refuted the claim put to them exactly as it was stated. We can infer nothing - it might be that he thinks nobody should work remotely, or everyone should.
bellyfullofbac 5y ago
A few lines before that: He [Hölzle] strongly opposed remote work for Google employees who didn't have a certain seniority level or wouldn't be assigned to an office, a resigning employee told CNET. So, who do we want to believe?
- dorianmariefr 5y ago
  both say that it's for senior employees and those without an office
- sangnoir 5y ago
  > So, who do we want to believe? They are both saying the same thing: Hölzle opposes the peasants working from home. The spokesperson is being deliberately opaque/circumspect by saying Hölzle never opposed senior folk (like him) working from home, but the level of seniority is left undefined.
  - pseudalopex 5y ago
    The article said the spokesperson said Hölzle never opposed what the resigning employee said Hölzle strongly opposed. And it quoted the spokesperson saying all employees are eligible to apply for remote.
    - mcguire 5y ago
      "Apply" is a neat word. Anyone can apply for anything. Now, whether it's approved or not...
boardwaalk 5y ago
An employee who quit claims the opposite. Do you always believe spokespersons? Yikes.
- paxys 5y ago
  Do you always believe disgruntled ex-employees?
  - delroth 5y ago
    I still work at Google and can confirm that. From everything I've heard, Urs has strongly opposed remote work for years, causing multiple talented and senior people to quit.
stefan_ 5y ago
Yeah, there are regular emails at Google from low-level employees telling all about how they are relocating to Cambodia for remote work, seeing how they like it, but will occasionally drop in via plane. I'm getting so many relocation experiment updates I've had to mute the keyword! Clearly, these are privileges available to all. It's wrong to even call them a privilege. Life is one big adventure.
mdoms 5y ago
Hmmmm who to believe, someone who was affected by the policy or the PR arm of the company involved.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
vanusa 5y ago
The very sentence you quote clearly says that the overall claim is at least partially true -- indeed, most likely true for the majority of reports in his organization. So it is completely false to say that it is "completely false".
brown9-2 5y ago
“or wouldn't be assigned to an office” seems to be doing a lot here to obscure the true meaning
- chihuahua 5y ago
  yes, I don't know what that's supposed to mean. If you're not assigned to an office, and you're not allowed to work from home, where do you work?
dilyevsky 5y ago
Bullshit! When i worked there he was very vocal about supposed benefits of open space and onsite-only working arrangements.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

onion2k 5y ago

It doesn't seem that bad to believe lower level staff should have different working environments to higher level staff. I don't believe it's particularly hypocritical of my boss to have more flexibility in the way he works than I enjoy.

Graffur 5y ago
What's your thought process here? Is it related to the job role or you think underlings should just be treated differently/worse?
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  I mean, that is how it already works in the workplace. More senior positions are better compensated, including perks. I personally think individuals should have the choice to work locally or remotely, if it doesn't considerably impact their work (ie a job that doesn't require a lot of face to face time), but the idea that more senior people get better options really doesn't need to be justified as a deviation from the norm.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - the_other 5y ago
    It really does.
- the_jeremy 5y ago
  I know that as a junior engineer (~ first two years) I needed a lot more direction and handholding, and that is much easier to get in an office than remotely.
  - viraptor 5y ago
    This is really cultural / company specific. I spent days on screenshare coding with fresh team members. Literally had days of that in my schedule. If it matters for the company/management it's not harder to do remotely.

mikeryan 5y ago

Interesting stance. My wife in Senior management, side for one of the largest employers in CA (non-tech) they've been very careful on allowing for any sort of changes to senior management's remote work policies until they have sorted it with the rank-and-file. While I can see an argument for having to reach a level of seniority to achieve the ability to work remotely I'd also argue that there's a similar bar that hits at the most Senior levels.

Taniwha 5y ago

Of course NZ is not open to people just moving here right now - in general only citizens, permanent residents and Australians from some Aussie states have been allowed in since the beginning of Covid. We're not taking tourists or new immigrants at this time. There are some exceptions, not easy to get, a very small number of rich people (14) making large investments here are being let in, I assume he and his wife are buying there way in.

rsstack 5y ago
A close friend of mine immigrated to NZ in April on a work visa with his family. He's not rich at all, just a practicing doctor (not research). There seem to be exceptions other than buying your way in.
- Taniwha 5y ago
  Yes we're taking a small number of people with specifically needed skills (like doctors) on a case by case basis - "Google Executive" is unlikely to be one of these
  - whizzter 5y ago
    The article did say that this was planned since before the pandemic, so maybe some prior decision still applies?
  - Taniwha 5y ago
    We've essentially put all previous immigration processing on hold since Covid - our mandatory quarantine is currently full through November for just citizens returning home
    - roca 5y ago
      I wonder how many of those MIQ bookings are citizens returning home from non-essential overseas trips. I think we should probably be making those trips a lot harder/more expensive and using those MIQ slots for more compassionate or business grounds.

notyourwork 5y ago

Headline sounds like clickbait. The premise is that senior level employees get more freedom. It's not really that surprising but I can see how that would be frustrating to some.

foobarbazetc 5y ago

I just want to know how he's getting into NZ since the border is closed to non-citizens and people who can't prove existing residency. Asking for a friend, who's me, also trying to move to NZ. :)

bioinformatics 5y ago
Is your friend a FAANG exec? If not, I am sorry.
- foobarbazetc 5y ago
  Even FAANG exec's aren't allowed in, last time I checked. NZ doesn't care about that sort of thing. Only if you have $$$ to put in somewhere. But maybe things got loosened up a little bit lately, pre-Delta, plus we don't know where Urs has citizenship.
  - paxys 5y ago
    > Only if you have $$$ to put in somewhere. Which FAANG execs do
  - plantain 5y ago
    >NZ doesn't care about that sort of thing. Are we thinking of the same NZ? https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-coronavirus-wealthy-investors-due-to-arrive-on-new-border-exemption/E6SRPTAATZ7C3TIU2WKVYZ3FRQ/ https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/covid-19-coronavirus-wea... https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446151/border-exemptions-visas-approved-for-14-wealthy-investors https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446151/border-exemptions...
threeseed 5y ago
In most countries the minister responsible for border control will have wide discretion about who is allowed in and out. This means that if you’re politically well connected it can be trivial to get the necessary approvals. But for everyone else it will be extremely difficult, especially for countries like Australia and NZ which have very low vaccination rates.

drewg123 5y ago

I worked in this guy's org as an L5 & L6. Opposition to remote work is the primary reason I left Google in 2015. Its also one of the reasons we lost out on a number of good internal transfers. We had one amazing guy. World famous, luminary in his field, who lived in Livermore who had a deal to WFH 2-3 days a week who turned down a job in our org because he would have lost that deal & would have had to commute from Livermore every day. EDIT: To be clear, the opposition to remote work that impacted me came from the VP immediately above me. It is certainly possible that other forks on the org chart under different VPs were different. I never specifically talked to this person and got his views on remote work.

vl 5y ago
Urs is an engineer who imagines that he can run business and manage people, neither of which is actually true.
- justicezyx 5y ago
  Urs is kind of quite assured of himself about a lot of technical decisions. Probably because he blueprinted TI, and contributed directly to some of the key decisions (warehouse-scale computer, as one example, although I am not sure if he or Luiz is more principal). He largely no longer made any good decision since the google plus era? I read somewhere it states that Urs was behind the push of google plus. Urs missed Cloud. Half-heartedly built GAE, which is technically superior, but mediocrely implemented. Urs decided to defund internal development, in order to boost Cloud, after realizing google was years behind. That was a laughable technical decision. Personally, Urs shows some form of personal distaste towards a few old but still working systems, and tried to make them disappear by cutting off their resources. borgcfg was one of them. Another evidence of Urs losing touch of the technical reality. borgcfg code is right behind C++, Java, the 3rd most human written code in Google. Make it disappear by cutting off its resources is essentially making almost every engineer suffer at Google... (I am behind the effort to revitalize borgcfg, and experienced the ridiculousness behind this view).
  - Arainach 5y ago

bellyfullofbac 5y ago

Irrelevant detail: if he lives in NZ and works on California time, California's 9AM happens at 4AM his time, and California's 5PM is his 12 noon. At least with the current clock with daylight savings. Seems like a sweet gig, wake up early, finish by lunch time.

qbasic_forever 5y ago
As a senior executive the wall time really doesn't matter to his output or work. He is expected and very likely making decisions and working/replying to issues all hours he is awake. He isn't being measured on something like 'amount of code committed', he's being measured by how effective his entire organization is performing. People in his org are relying on him to be the arbiter and decision maker that unblock and move forward the organization.
- ultimoo 5y ago
  I've always wondered this about senior execs. As an IC I could easily unplug at 5p every day. Now, as a manager of managers I have to force myself to unplug for a couple hours each night to maintain some sanity but I'm always thinking and noodling about work in some capacity when I'm awake. I can no longer tell whether this is due to how the pandemic has changed work culture or whether it was always like this. But I imagine senior execs who run orgs spanning thousands of engineers are always plugged in, even if they're great at delegating.
  - cgio 5y ago
    Yes. Not a senior exec myself but worked as an exec assistant with glorified title for a couple and they were plugged in at any time, all days (Sunday a bit less). Their only balance was a slightly more generous leave (about 2 months per year). Some of the work is a bit less taxing, lots of meetings, calls with interesting people, as long as things are going well. Some is really boring administrative work. I was doing the boring parts that I could, and was a fly on the wall for the rest, and still they could not delegate most of it to me or others just by the nature of it.

asadlionpk 5y ago

Just to point out, Urs Hölzle was the employee no. 8 at Google. Why are the lowly minions so pissed, he can work from wherever he wants, or not!

pbourke 5y ago
Hypocrisy is not an endearing leadership trait
- asadlionpk 5y ago
  Sure but does employee no. xxx,xxx have so much of their head up their arse that they feel entitled to deserve equal working benefits as The 8th Googler?
  - untererdisch 5y ago
    Yes
selcuka 5y ago
Of course he can work from wherever he wants. The problem is, if he thinks that remote working is bad, he shouldn't do it either.
- chii 5y ago
  he thinks it's bad for other engineers under him - but not for himself, since he can trust himself to do the work properly.
  - Peritract 5y ago
    If he doesn't trust the engineers under him to work without constant supervision, then he has a huge recruitment/management issue to deal with.
nr2x 5y ago
His "fuck you" money has its own "fuck you" money...but if he doesn't want to work in the same circumstances as everybody else, why not just retire?

devoutsalsa 5y ago

Conspiracy theory... the real reason companies want you working on site is because they know you know they'll notice if you take off too much time to interview other places.

paxys 5y ago
People don't take time off for interviews, they fall sick or have mysterious appointments. And employers in that position don't really care, because it's better to let the employee leave voluntarily than to fire them and have to go through the entire HR process and pay unemployment.
- verall 5y ago
  Yes, and employees that are actively trying to leave (different than passively interviewing for drive-by opportunities) are probably putting in minimum input, maybe less. It's like 3-6mo to fire a software engineer, and its a ton of work. If they don't like it here, let them leave.
  - 55555 5y ago
    Some companies will even give you a bonus at any time to quit.

perihelions 5y ago

For some context, here's the current situation for New Zealand citizens attempting to enter New Zealand (according to newspapers -- I'm not from there): >"The demand is so high, and the supply so scarce, that any rooms that become available disappear within seconds. Dates are released completely randomly and can appear any time of the day or night, and there's no queue." >"It makes it close to impossible for the average New Zealander to get home," said Chris Ruscoe, currently in Tennessee, about the high demand and the software enabling people to secure rooms so quickly." >"The difficulty and frustration and desperation that these folks are feeling, including me - who tried for three weeks, 18-plus hours a day and got nowhere." https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446516/tech-savvy-kiwis-able-to-use-scripts-to-snap-up-miq-spots-before-others https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/446516/tech-savvy-kiwis-... ("Tech-savvy Kiwis able to use scripts to snap up MIQ spots before others")

throwawayay02 5y ago
I don't understand, there are barriers of entry into NZ for NZ citizens? What? How, what?
- perihelions 5y ago
  * Entry means extended hotel quarantine * Limited supply of state-managed quarantine slots * Additional high friction from the digital application process + people gaming it (Per the article: signing up isn't a FIFO queue, it's "something shows up on a website & the first entity that clicks it wins")
- chrfrasco 5y ago
  The limiting factor is managed isolation. You can return if there are flights from where you are currently, but you need to secure a spot in managed isolation first (2 weeks in a hotel). https://www.miq.govt.nz/travel-to-new-zealand/secure-your-place-in-managed-isolation/ https://www.miq.govt.nz/travel-to-new-zealand/secure-your-pl...
  - neither_color 5y ago

alexaholic 5y ago

If senior levels all exercise their option to work remotely, then who’s going to watch all the underlings in the office?

planet-and-halo 5y ago
The machines
akomtu 5y ago
The middle managers.

drewda 5y ago

This was originally reported by CNET (with additional context), so let me encourage folks to give them your clicks instead: https://www.cnet.com/news/googles-hypocritical-remote-work-policies-anger-employees/ https://www.cnet.com/news/googles-hypocritical-remote-work-p...

machinehermiter 5y ago

I just don't think smart companies can afford to force the employees back to the office right now. It does feel like some kind of worker revolt. Literally everyone I know wants to quit or do something else. Not like we are talking independent variables here either. If you are already thinking about quitting and your co-worker quits obviously the chance you quit goes way up since your job probably just got way shittier. I say this as someone who just went back to the office 2 days ago and I love it. Happiness to me is not sitting at home all day with as little interaction as possible. I think companies are just going to have to play ball with this in the near term as I don't know how they can afford not to.

themolecularman 5y ago
What do you think the long term impact will be? The company I work for may have adapted to remote work by noticing they didn't need the Bay Area talent pool. In the past few weeks offices opened in Mexico City and elsewhere for engineering.

disabled 5y ago

The big question here is how Senior Google executive Urs Hölzle managed to get a "remote work visa" from the government of New Zealand. It reminds me of the "special treatment" that Peter Thiel got, where he got New Zealand citizenship after spending only 12 days in New Zealand [1]. It is almost non-existent in the western world to be able to get a remote-work visa (minus Croatia and Czech Republic--both countries are part of the European Union and therefore become "westernized" quickly after accession). Yes, you can technically get _self-employment_, non-remote work visas in many European Union countries. But, the point and intent of such visas is that you contribute to their economy, assimilate, learn the local language, and eventually become a functioning contributing citizen in their society. The hypocrisy of the situation around remote work makes me angry, as I am disabled and I require remote work as an accommodation. I have 2 rare immune-mediated neurological diseases affecting my peripheral nervous system, plus type 1 diabetes (autoimmune and insulin-dependent). I should also point out something else unfair. I am a dual US|EU (Croatian) citizen who works part-time remotely as a contractor for a US-based company in Croatia, while studying for her masters degree in electrical engineering full time. Because I am an EU citizen, I can work in 30+ countries remotely, outside of the United States, while essentially getting paid more (compared to the locals and most other European Union citizens) for just having US citizenship and related credentials. I basically live like a queen in Croatia. [1] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-gave-peter-thiel-citizenship-after-spending-just-12-days-there https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jun/29/new-zealand-ga...

roca 5y ago
That's a good question. However, as a NZer, I think it's a pretty good deal for NZ to admit someone like Hölzle even if he only stays here for a year. For sure he will contribute to the economy by spending significant amounts (we have a sales tax he can't evade), and we should be able to collect income tax too. It's also good for our tech industry to have people like him around.
- disabled 5y ago
  More likely than not (from what I have researched online in the past 20 minutes or so) what was done for Urs was likely a form of corruption. It also appears like a form of corruption, on the surface. You do not want these people in your country. Trust me. I am saying this as an American. These are the kind of people who will eviscerate your government from the inside out, just in general. They will also ruin pension programs for the average person. They have contempt for things like government and pensions and they will fight tooth and nail to ruin them. They have a libertarian mindset. These are the kind of people who exploit others, in so many ways that it can be written into multiple books. The short term payoff is not worth it. Trust me.

ydnaclementine 5y ago

Remote for me but not for thee

mcguire 5y ago

One thing missing from the article: what evidence is there he opposed remote work? The article says, "A Google spokesperson told Insider that Hölzle never opposed remote work for employees who didn't have a certain seniority level or wouldn't be assigned to an office." which is more negatives than I'm strictly comfortable with.

thrower123 5y ago

The hypocrisy is always stunning. The push to reopen my office is led by our COO... who is at the office like four hours a week, and otherwise works from home.

tibbydudeza 5y ago

All animals are equal - some are more equal than others.

MrDresden 5y ago

I have never understood why these C-suite types feel like they need to share their lives and experiences with employees. Who truly cares? My current employeer, in europe, has a new c-suite figure from abroad who likes to regale us with tales of his life at every meeting. This person is good at their jobs, but this behaviour is just buying them ridicule from the employees. Get it through your head C-suites. We do not care, as we do not know you closely enough (as we do not work with you).

wepple 5y ago
This type of comms internally is simply a respectful notification that you won’t see someone on campus or be able to book in-person meetings. Someone as high profile as Urs making this kind of move and not letting his team know would create infinite tensions. The fact that it made a CNET article and then HN discussion isn’t the execs fault, if anything you’re feeding the fire by adding to the discussion
- MrDresden 5y ago
  I am not talking about the internal comms, as obviously those are required and make perfect sense to send to who ever might interact with him on a regular basis. It is this little tidbit that caused me to write that comment: "If things go well, we may decide to stay longer," he continued in the memo. "I'm looking forward to this adventure and to sharing the results of our relocation 'experiment' with you." In the light of having stood in the way of others doing exactly what he was doing, this comment leaves an even worse taste than it would have otherwise.
  - johnnyanmac 5y ago
    humans, even billionares, are still social creatures. Same reason people share their family or sometimes personal details on team slack channels, even if I personally wouldn't tell anyone past immediate co-workers I affect. Maybe not the best choice of words, but I don't think there's as much smoke here as people on social media are making of it outside your typical mega rich person not being in touch with the not mega rich. But empathy is a much bigger problem than the tech industry.

refurb 5y ago

This article’s title is a click-bait masterpiece. Big tech company? Check Timely topic of remote work? Check Element of hypocrisy to stoke outrage? Check

listenallyall 5y ago

The only source for the claim that he opposed remote work is "a resigning employee told CNET." Show me an email, a memo, a video of a speech, something, anything... or don't hide behind anonymity.

badcoderman 5y ago

I've been interviewing a ton of Googlers since my company (Salesforce) has a pretty good remote work policy going forward. We don't pay as well but probably the only big tech company with better WLB.

holografix 5y ago

I hope beautiful, pristine, safe, friendly, equitable New Zealand doesn’t continue to evolve into a haven for the very rich. I’d like to ask Urs why NZ? Why now? He reaped the maximum financial benefit of living in a dysfunctional society while paying little tax. Is the US too unstable for you now? Too much poverty? Too polluted? Fires in California too wild? Homeless is San Francisco too numerous?

miked85 5y ago

He sounds like he is totally cut out to be a politician.