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Two Portland delivery companies revolt against Amazon, shut down

331 points by watchdogtimer 5y ago

cduzz 5y ago
I suspect that amazon specializes in arbitrage. They collect information in a domain (such as delivering stuff to places in a region). They build a detailed map of "easy to deliver" and "horrible to deliver" locations in that region. After that, they take the "Easy to deliver" places for themselves and get a 3rd party to agree to deliver the rest, typically based on some rate scheme that is coarse to assume "average delivery pain" when in fact they're getting only the impossible delivery list.
blakesterz 5y ago
Wow, I guess I never really paid attention to the details behind all the Amazon headlines I see. "In April, Amazon announced it would reduce the amount it paid for drivers from $17.25 to $16.00 an hour, according to the letter...Weeks later, Amazon announced a series of raises for its drivers around the country as part of a public relations push following a union drive at an Amazon warehouse" "Currently, Amazon delivery drivers are expected to deliver upwards of 400 packages a day on 10-hour routes that often extend up to 12 hours." 400 seems crazy, I wondered about UPS. According to Google "At UPS, the average driver makes about 120 deliveries per day, says Jack Levis, the shipping giant's director of process management"
- Robotbeat 5y ago
  That’s on the order of 50¢ in wages per delivery. Drones & autonomous/semi-autonomous robots can’t compete against super low wage labor. That’s crazy cheap for a delivery driver! (Low wages hold back innovation and improvements in productivity.)
  - dylan604 5y ago
    That's just the labor fees. The vans still need to be paid for and maintained, and they still run on fuel.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      All pretty cheap compared to the labor costs.
    - HarryHirsch 5y ago
      As if the high-tech solution didn't have to be maintained? Anyway, that's what cheap labour does, it leads to stagnation. Why invest in to improve the state of the art when you can throw more bodies at the problem? There's also the other problem: Jeff Bezos strip-mines the workforce and takes the gains to Washington. Meanwhile his underpaid employees can't invest in their own communities.
      - Robotbeat 5y ago
        I truly believe that increasing the minimum wage (at first just to the same as the 1960s, ie about $12.20/hour, and then adjusting for productivity growth since 1969 to about $20/hour), especially if combined with policies to maintain full employment, Will lead to dramatic increases in productivity as companies are finally forced to properly value human labor. The increase in productivity well help pay for minimum wage increases, making them not purely inflationary or even just redistributionary (although it’ll be that, too… tying minimum wage to productivity growth will have the effect of reducing & limiting income inequality).
        missedthecue 5y ago
        Why do you cherrypick 1969 and not 1955 where the equivalent number would be $5 an hour today?
        Robotbeat 5y ago
        Pretty obvious, isn’t it? Doesn’t it kind of go without saying that we should progress as a society beyond high water marks set over 50 years ago? Heck, I’ll do one better. Why not pick 1890? “Workers should be paid less today than in 1969” is a sort of crazy thing to say out loud, but here we are.
- rightbyte 5y ago
  > 400 packages a day on 10-hour routes 40 packages per hour or 90s per package. No wonder the drivers pee in bottles and work unpaid overtime to keep their jobs.
  - zouhair 5y ago
    And throw packages like they don't care, as they should.
    - wtf_is_up 5y ago
      How is destroying other people's stuff a reasonable response for you being disgruntled at your employer?
      - GavinMcG 5y ago
        It's not about being disgruntled, it's about not wanting your family to go hungry because you were only able to deliver three hundred packages in ten hours by taking extra care. There's a difference between destroying someone's stuff because you hate your job and just not caring about someone's stuff because you want your job.
        mavhc 5y ago
        Exactly what the game Papers Please is about
        IncRnd 5y ago
        > There's a difference between destroying someone's stuff because you hate your job and just not caring about someone's stuff because you want your job. What is the difference, when you said you destroyed the packages in each case?
        nooneknows 5y ago
        The difference is the intention.
- Frost1x 5y ago
  A lot of corporate gains have been at a cost of squeezing on labor resources in some form or another, either time, lower comp, higher productivity, etc. or some combination of these elements. There has been some innovation in general technology making improvements for labor but a lot is really just doing more, for less, and someone else pocketing the gains. You need look no further than AWS treatment of SEs in their PIP culture to see this. You can only squeeze people so far until they finally step away. The only reason it's being sustained is that people don't have alternative options in many cases and are esentially forced to do it. At some point people will find other options and leave you on your feet but as long as there's a steady stream of desperate people ready to be subjugated to ridiculous working conditions, this will continue.
  - mattgreenrocks 5y ago
    > You need look no further than AWS treatment of SEs in their PIP culture to see this. Curious if you or someone else can expound further on this?
    - azar1 5y ago
      https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/internal-amazon-documents-shed-light-on-how-company-pressures-out-6-of-office-workers/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/internal-amazon... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27581797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27581797
    - IncRnd 5y ago
      I've never worked at Amazon, but I read that as Software Engineers are subjected to progress improvement plans as a way to legally threaten firings in order to make people work extensive hours.
  - jmeister 5y ago
    > corporate gains What about customers? They seem to be happy to ignore how the sausage is made, to have stuff delivered to their doorsteps cheap and fast.
- whatok 5y ago
  Comparing packages to deliveries is apples to oranges. I don't disagree that these jobs are rough but 120 deliveries with an average of 3-4 packages per delivery paints a similar picture.
  - nrmitchi 5y ago
    > an average of 3-4 packages per delivery Do you have any source for this? It seems like a really weird assumption to make, especially given that Amazon will already bundle multiple orders into the same package.
    - lostapathy 5y ago
      Conversely, any UPS driver is about guaranteed a handful of business stops that have a dozen to several dozen packages at the stop.
    - burnished 5y ago
      I think their point is that you probably can't compare these two numbers very well because they measure different things, and in the case of Amazon if on average they have 3-4 packages per delivery then the two companies would have very similar numbers. Sidenote, I hate "cant compare apples to oranges" because you eminently can. I'd argue it is much easier to compare things that are very similar! Apples and oranges both have sugars and acids, skins, are recognized as fruits, and are frequently interchangeable. Comparing apples to cranes is much more difficult. "comparing apples to oranges" should mean the comparison is relatively easy to make on a variety of axes!
    - whatok 5y ago
      I should clarify that comment with if you made a naïve assumption of 3-4 packages per delivery then it's a similar workload. I don't doubt that Amazon workers are treated worse than UPS workers but comparing packages to deliveries without normalizing somehow is not productive. The 400 package number from the article is also specifically cited from this company and we have no idea whether that is a nationwide figure while the UPS comment implies that it is.
- bradleyankrom 5y ago
  I wonder how prevalent those storage lockers are on a typical route … the last few places that I’ve lived have had Amazon or Luxer lockers, ranging from a couple dozen to maybe 100+ individual spaces. The 400/day seems a little more feasible if a quarter or half can be dropped in the same location, but I really have no idea how ubiquitous those lockers are.
- specialp 5y ago
  Yes and hence like warehouse workers not taking bathroom breaks for fear of being "off-task" Amazon drivers cut corners too. I have seen them blowing through stop signs, and one of them after blowing through a stop sign, ripped a three point turn and came within one foot of my car before my beeping stopped them. I called Amazon and they of course speak of them like they are some completely separate affiliate that has nothing to do with them. This is despite the fact they say Amazon and deliver only Amazon packages.
  - MattGaiser 5y ago
    They are basically delivery franchises in my understanding.
  - at-fates-hands 5y ago
    >> I called Amazon and they of course speak of them like they are some completely separate affiliate that has nothing to do with them. This by design: Amazon has repeatedly said in court that it is not responsible for the actions of its contractors, citing agreements that require them, as one puts it, to “defend, indemnify and hold harmless Amazon.” Just last week, an operations manager for Amazon testified in Chicago that it signs such agreements with all its “delivery service partners,” who assume the liability and the responsibility for legal costs. The agreements cover “all loss or damage to personal property or bodily harm including death.” Amazon vigilantly enforces the terms of those agreements. In New Jersey, when a contractor’s insurer failed to pay Amazon’s legal bills in a suit brought by a physician injured in a crash, Amazon sued to force the insurer to pick up the tab. In California, the company sued contractors, telling courts that any damages arising from crashes there should be billed to the delivery companies. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/05/us/amazon-delivery-drivers-accidents.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/05/us/amazon-delivery-driver... The whole article was pretty shocking to read. I rarely, if ever buy stuff on Amazon now that I know how they've attempted to wall themselves off from responsibility of what happens with these companies.
    - mattmcknight 5y ago
      If you or I hire a company to ship a package, we are not generally responsible if the driver the shipper hires runs someone over. This same construct should apply at scale.
- crazygringo 5y ago
  > 400 seems crazy, I wondered about UPS. In cities, an Amazon delivery driver might be delivering 5, 10, or 20 packages to the same building. And in those areas where Amazon is using its own delivery network, UPS packages (non-Amazon) will be far fewer -- often just 1 or a couple or none per day. So it's not crazy. The Amazon driver might be elivering far more packages but making fewer stops. Also, a lot of those packages are the little white-and-blue padded envelopes, almost more like large letters than packages.
  - GoodJokes 5y ago
    Found the Amazon astroturfer. Good try though! Cheers!
  - KillahBhyte 5y ago
    There may be some sampling bias as you point out, but it is still crazy from my perspective. I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. With the right bundling and route optimization for a specific city or set of parcels I could see some level of improvement due to the things you mention. But 200-300% efficiency gains over businesses that have been profitably providing this service for years? Its exceptional enough to warrant being called crazy at first glance. From the article, "The two Portland delivery companies are demanding a cap at 250 packages and 150 stops per 8.5 hour route" Which seems to indicate that they realize that some bundling will occur and accept it as long as there is an upper bounds on both metrics.
    - crazygringo 5y ago
      > I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. In the end a great deal of it comes down to volume per delivery location. If UPS is delivering 1 package per day per location, there's nothing they can do to optimize (except skip locations certain days, which nobody wants). It sucks for them. Then Amazon comes along with 5 packages per day per location, and it changes the economics completely. By 200-300% is not unreasonable at all. There's a fact that blew my mind when I first learned it -- that apparently UPS actually loses money delivering packages for Amazon, but makes more profit in the end because the added scale makes it even cheaper to deliver packages for other people. E.g., if it's already dropping off an Amazon package at a location, then it's suddenly much cheaper to drop off the non-Amazon package at the same time.
- kevindong 5y ago
  I don't think you should be directly comparing UPS and Amazon drivers in this instance. Amazon can pick and choose where they have contractors make deliveries (e.g. non rural areas with higher population densities). UPS serves almost everywhere. Additionally, we don't know what hours UPS drivers work in comparison to Amazon drivers.
- zamfi 5y ago
  Not justifying Amazon’s labor practices by any means, but Amazon delivery != UPS. It’s quite possible that Amazon only runs its own delivery in areas with a high enough order density that 400 packages/day is possible, and UPS doesn’t restrict itself in this way.
nonfamous 5y ago
> [contract delivery companies] have to adhere to a strict set of rules from Amazon around hiring, pay, delivery times and routes, and more. The only one of these that Amazon has any right to dictate is delivery times (and what they will pay for that delivery). The fact that Amazon has direct control over the contractor’s worker’s pay, and even the ability to fire those workers, is very shocking to me. Remember, this isn’t a situation like Uber: these are not contractors to Amazon, but employees of independent delivery companies.
- CobsterLock 5y ago
  Are these the same drivers that wear Amazon vests, drive Amazon cars and can only deliver for Amazon? Seems like Amazon is doing some legal loophole with "3rd party" companies to get around actually employing these drivers and giving them the full time benefits they are entitled to by law I'm so tired of this dumb gig economy that isn't long term sustainable.
  - SQueeeeeL 5y ago
    It's totally long term sustainable, lol. Did you forget the US literally had a game show host holding the highest political office like a year ago? It's essentially a failed state at this point.
  - beaconstudios 5y ago
    That's not even gig economy, it's just cutting employee benefits and rights by pretending they're contractors. Same thing uber does, it seems. The gig economy is good in theory - being able to work a few extra hours freelance when you need some extra cash, but giant scummy companies are trying to pretend that this is what they offer in order to screw over their full time employees.
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    This isn't a new loophole, though. Major US airlines do the same thing with regional carriers. If you live in the US, you've probably been on a SkyWest flight and not known it. The big difference is SkyWest is regional (they're not on the East Coast), and they contract with America, Delta, and United, so they actually have some leverage.
hourislate 5y ago
I've started to shop directly with some retailers instead of buying through AMZN (ex: Thorne) and I've also noticed that AMZN has become increasingly expensive for many items, sometimes double the price than can be found locally (ex: Allouse). Being a Prime member doesn't really offer me anything that I can't live without. Sometimes I can get next day delivery but usually the item takes longer than 2 days. Recently I started some online shopping at Walmart and have been pleasantly surprised with the price and speed of service (sort of like AMZN use to be). I've decided to cancel my Prime Membership this Aug, mostly because AMZN just isn't competitive and offers less value these days.
- claaams 5y ago
  I won't ever purchase anything from Amazon that is edible or goes on my body (cosmetics in particular) because of their counterfeit problem. I also try to buy from best buy or other competitors for electronics. Often the price difference might only be 1% or so. I'm not sure the average person realizes how bad it's gotten and they have a lot of momentum.
  - InitialLastName 5y ago
    It seems like every e-tailer is getting worse about the quality of their shipped products. I keep getting, if not counterfeits, visibly open-box products sold as new from the websites of places like Wal-mart, Target and Best Buy too. I now do everything I can to buy directly from the manufacturer or their recommended channels (or, in the situations where I feel qualified to evaluate what I'm getting, the used market).
redleggedfrog 5y ago
Vote with your dollars folks. I'm 5 years in to an Amazon boycott and hardly even notice really.
- ckdarby 5y ago
  What are you using that is even close to the same, offers a similar return guarantees and contactless due to covid?
  - peer2pay 5y ago
    If you buy quality goods from companies that care about their products and customers you will barely need any return guarantees. If you buy Amazon junk on the other hand...
    - smolyeet 5y ago
      Every company needs a return policy , in fact the best ones are most likely to honor them and for longer periods of time. I'm not going to buy something more expensive if I can't at least return it if I need to
  - orangegreen 5y ago
    I've never been an Amazon customer. I like to buy things in store. If I want something that isn't in a store, I will buy it from eBay. eBay also tends to have better prices than Amazon.
  - notsureaboutpg 5y ago
    Obviously it's a principled stance so you have to give up some convenience. Every item on Amazon is available somewhere else. Every retail / online shopping experience can be contactless these days. You might have to wait 5 days instead of 2 for a package but that can be okay.
  - ShamelessC 5y ago
    At what point did they say they were using or needed a similar product? Anecdotally, the store experience here from Walmart, Target and Best Buy have provided contactless parking lot delivery via app throughout much of the pandemic. Can't speak for Walmart but Best Buy has a price matching policy and the typical corporate return policy which works fine for me but I'm sure has been annoying for many, just like all corporate policies. It's so strange to me how defensive people can be over corporations when people are told about the option of boycotting. Just...keep shopping there? It's fine. You don't have to boycott and a mob isn't going to judge you if you don't. That doesn't mean you have to pretend it's because it's this like inherently impossible thing. It's a capitalist economy and Amazon has won you over. You feel they provide the best options and there aren't any viable alternatives. In my area there are...but it's just Best Buy and WalMart. "Oh boy, really fighting the power by switching from Amazon to Walmart /s" I go to Best Buy. Never been crazy about that either but I still don't know at what point we all decided waiting two days was somehow preferable to driving for 10-15 minutes to grab a new PS4 controller or whatever. Suggesting that it isn't a noble effort to boycott a clearly unethical corporation though just because you don't want to do it honestly just stinks of insecurity over the fact that you buy things from a company that isn't exactly turning out to be ethical. The situation is far more complicated than that and ultimately each of us get to pick our battles day in and day out. You don't have to pick this one - that's fine. You also don't need to defend a massive corporation on the basis of their competitive advantage in order to make yourself feel better about not boycotting. Sometimes the point of boycotting is that the competitive advantage has come at some other cost to society which is deemed to be too severe. Do you not agree that Amazon has crossed some ethical lines lately? Because _that_ is the discussion we should be having. Amazon can, will and certainly already has been known to defend themselves using their vast fortune. Please stop helping them or if you're going to at least go fill out a job application and get paid to do so.
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
HN really needs to look at these types of headlines - They are written without qualification. 0.001 of Amazon delivery companies shut down 2 out if 2000 delivery companies shut down. Are both probably more accurate.
- chewmieser 5y ago
  It would just be nice to flag it as a misleading headline or something like that. This is from the guidelines: Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize. We should use the original title but something like a misleading flair would be helpful.
  - MaxBarraclough 5y ago
    > We should use the original title but something like a misleading flair would be helpful. When the mods find a title to be problematic, they go ahead and replace it with something better. This seems better than keeping and flagging problematic titles (the approach used on reddit).
  - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
    I like this idea - they are usually pretty obvious and follow a pattern. Usually very broad statements (all workers) with strong language ie "revolt" when reality is different. Air traffic controllers on strike actually meant something back in the day
- tech-historian 5y ago
  Your assertion is silly. The headline is fine, and this qualifies as news. By your logic, if a US Senator quits, it wouldn't be news because it's only 1% of US Senators?
  - whoknowswhat11 5y ago
    Do you not understand the difference between all senators quiting (rare / big news) and one stepping down? You can still report it, just say So and so stepping down.
criddell 5y ago
> "We refused their demands and they followed through with their threat, terminating their contract with us, leaving their employees confused and looking for answers," she continued. "We’re doing everything we can to support the affected employees including connecting them with other Delivery Service Partners in the area who are hiring.” I'd love for that PR person to drive the route one day and see if they can meet the quota. I can't help but to hear a lot of contempt in her statement.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  Which words in that statement are contemptuous?
  - tablespoon 5y ago
    > Which words in that statement are contemptuous? Not so much words, but the attitude it displays. It lies and stretches the truth to make it look like these companies are behaving irrationally and destructively and that Amazon is the good guy who cares. It shows contempt for those companies, and contempt for the listener (because they expect us to believe it)
    - robertlagrant 5y ago
      How do you know that it's lies?
  - criddell 5y ago
    For one, she's lying: > We’re doing everything we can to support the affected employees
- drzaiusapelord 5y ago
  Why? She knows the capitalism rat-race as well as you do, its just in her paycheck's interest to say these things just like you do capitalistic contributions for your paycheck. I think the idea that you lead an ethical work life and she doesn't is a bit out there. There's a lot of "but but my capitalism contribution is the only ethical capitalist contribution" in this thread. You're just as guilty as her of that regard. Why aren't you doing the janitors job for a week everytime you think the bathrooms look a bit untidy?
kingsuper20 5y ago
That's interesting, I can't say that I've ever seen an Amazon delivery truck. I've only hit non UPS/USPS driver when getting something big that required freight delivery. I suppose that the article goes in the same pile as the 'how Costco pressures vendors', 'how Walmart beats up it's employees', ranging back to manufacturing companies, traveling farm labor, and block haulers on the pyramids.
yalogin 5y ago
How is it even physically possible to deliver 400 packages in 10 hours? That comes to 1.5 minutes per package. One cannot do it even if it’s in the same area and every house has a package. Amazon employees already pee in a bottle to save time now they need to learn magic too?
- robalfonso 5y ago
  I think we are missing some information. I know my wife will order items on a separate account, this means some days I get 4/5 packages delivered at the same time. I think a packages/day and stops/day metric would be more helpful
- modeless 5y ago
  Obviously the targets will be different for different routes. If you assume that's 400 packages delivered to 400 separate single family homes then it doesn't work. But if it's 400 packages delivered to 200 apartments/condos served by 20 mailrooms, that's doable. We often get two or three Amazon packages in one delivery. There are easily 20+ packages dropped off all at once in the mailroom of our building most days.
D13Fd 5y ago
This is more or less how it should be. If Amazon isn't going to offer a good enough deal, then companies shouldn't move packages for them. As more and more people figure it out, other delivery companies will stop working with Amazon as well, although it may be that the deals work out better in places with lower cost-of-living, easier delivery routes (due to climate, geography, etc.), or other advantages. If some other delivery company can figure out how to make it work economically, then they can do the work instead. If nobody is interested in trying to make it work, Amazon will have to either improve the deal it offers or go back to using FedEx/UPS/USPS.
- subhro 5y ago
  Good points. But, with Amazon taking the lion’s share of online sales, how much of delivery is left outside of Amazon? I am not advocating for Amazon, just wondering if this move is sustainable for the employees while Amazon gets (theoretically) strong armed.
  - SQueeeeeL 5y ago
    If they "sell" 20,000 cheap knockoffs smartphones, but no one ships them, did they really sell them? Shipping is crucial to Amazon's business model. The last mile problem is the vulnerable jugular of the e-commerce industry
    - viro 5y ago
      Do you have the money still?
      - wongarsu 5y ago
        Legally yes. Amazon isn't entitled to money for products they don't deliver.
        klyrs 5y ago
        Even if 1% of the customers fail to demand a refund, this is profitable
MattGaiser 5y ago
A quick post I wrote with some back of the envelope math on this. I thought back two years ago that this was just an exercise in dumping risk onto entrepreneurs. https://qr.ae/TWGBfd https://qr.ae/TWGBfd
axaxs 5y ago
I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fast delivery. Definitely not lowest prices, and definitely not quality.
- notsureaboutpg 5y ago
  There are lots of e-commerce sites though, and many of them are nicer to browse, nicer-looking, have more realistic reviews, etc. than Amazon. Amazon absolutely competes on price. I've seen it myself. If Amazon sells something for a buck cheaper, lots and lots of people will go to Amazon for that something and maybe pick up something else from it's recommendation system they forgot they wanted, etc.
- amelius 5y ago
  > I don't get Amazon's play here. Shareholders, probably.
  - skybrian 5y ago
    Not as a matter of hard power because the outside shareholders are usually pretty docile. Management has the power. Shareholder ideology can be used to justify all sorts of things, though.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  Amazon competes on price through, especially as Walmart gets into the game.
- Y_Y 5y ago
  They wouldn't even have to change the prices. Amazon (overall, not necessarily on every sale) is making super-normal profit, in an industry where they dominate among few sellers and there are plenty of barriers to new companies entering and chipping away at the margin.
kingsuper20 5y ago
Clickbait title, it sounds like it's some huge movement, but I take their point. It seems to me that the underlying issue isn't some sort of highly predatory company (Amazon in this case), a lot of them are or were. The main trick is the ability to surveil and analyze employee activity. Imagine a 1950's auto factory where every location, utterance, and move by a worker could be gathered and parsed. I'd say that programmers will get a good healthy dose of that going forward and WFH gave it a good healthy shove.
gumby 5y ago
Bezos truly chose the right time to retire: « Après moi le déluge »!
jweir 5y ago
This is having impact. Noticed last night that all orders to Portland had a delivery date of one week out vs the normal two days.
tsegratis 5y ago
Using AWS supports abuse? At least for me, I think I can't support Amazon's treatment of people. Is there a way we on HN can have an effect here, and could avoiding AWS be a start? Or is there a better way, or am I wrong to draw such conclusions?
- sudhirj 5y ago
  This road doesn't lead anywhere, for the most part, except withdrawing from society to live in a self-made cabin in the woods. Every cloud provider can be shown to be exploitative, as can every manufacturer of clothing, food, or any other commodity. There's some middle ground where we return to a more artisan-majority society, where we get all our stuff from people who enjoy doing what they do, but this would be widely considered a step backwards.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  Good point and I think it depends on your own values where you draw the line. If you despise Amazon's practices in one "business unit" enough it might warrant moving off AWS. But then, where do you go? I wouldn't be surprised that you could find unethical behavior at the other conglomerates as well.
- ampdepolymerase 5y ago
  Not using AWS would not make much of a difference. AWS is a money machine, the parts of Amazon that involve logistics and blue collar work is barely profitable.
PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago
Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer Leaders work every day to create a safer, more productive, higher performing, more diverse, and more just work environment. They lead with empathy, have fun at work, and make it easy for others to have fun. Leaders ask themselves: Are my fellow employees growing? Are they empowered? Are they ready for what’s next? Leaders have a vision for and commitment to their employees’ personal success, whether that be at Amazon or elsewhere. from: https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us/leadership-principles https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us/leadership-principles
- bserge 5y ago
  Eh, Google promised to never put ads before user experience in Search. Now the first full screen on mobile is just ads disguised as search results. Do no evil or something.
  - nicetryguy 5y ago
    "Nevermind We're Actually Evil Now"
softwaredoug 5y ago
> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering pay. Amazon’s actions are unlawful." Sounds miserable. Id shut down too if I was losing money with only 1 client. If this were freelancing it’d be like having to be always available for one client 40 hrs a week, but not knowing if you’ll get to bill 5 hrs or 50… while your rates constantly decrease. There’s no point in having this business
- alisonkisk 5y ago
  This is basically how shift work in hospitality and service jobs works, and it's terrible. Some people claim it's done intentionally to prevent workers from working other jobs where they might get tired or escape the first job.
  - NortySpock 5y ago
    Well, part of it might be intentional. The other part might be just the organic result of shoving the complications of varying hourly load and varying worker availability week-to-week onto those willing or desperate to work extra hours. Schedules get jumbled, work hours get fragmented like a garbage collector's memory management without a compaction step.
    - lotsofpulp 5y ago
      >The other part might be just the organic result of shoving the complications of varying hourly load and varying worker availability week-to-week onto those willing or desperate to work extra hours. Much of the "middle" (or upper middle, however you want to label it) class's luxuries are based on goods and services being cheap enough due to the people at the bottom not having a choice but to deal with unsteady income and changing schedules. I am actually enjoying stores and restaurants closing early because they do not have enough employees, or prices going up so that people cannot constantly afford to eat out. It means there are people that can finally be home with family at dinner time, or if they are working, they are earning a premium for evenings, nights, weekends, etc and perhaps they themselves will be able to enjoy those services.
heywherelogingo 5y ago
Amazon is a cess pit in every respect. I use it once in a blue moon if I can't find an obscure item elsewhere, but I mostly abandoned it some years back. Alternatives have raised their game, and aren't regularly appearing in the news for being a cess pit. Everyone knows it's a cess pit (you can't miss the endless stories) but they like the convenience, and are frankly too lazy too look elsewhere, so the inevitable mock shock, disapproval and tut-tutting all comes off as quite insincere - just a little theatrical etiquette.
- missedthecue 5y ago
  According to research by Harvard, Amazon has the highest favorability rating in the US aside from the military. https://mobile.twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1410453573100609538 https://mobile.twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1410453573100609...
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  I don't think you can infer quality based on an absolute number of negative stories.
fmajid 5y ago
These are last-mile delivery workers. The Information had an excellent article a few weeks back about how dire the conditions are of their long-distance drivers who carry parcels between the warehouses. They have a much higher rate of accidents due to this, with innocent lives mangled and Amazon shielding itself behind the contractor status to dodge liability. (paywalled) https://www.theinformation.com/articles/the-deadly-toll-of-amazons-trucking-boom https://www.theinformation.com/articles/the-deadly-toll-of-a... It is legally possible for judges to "pierce the veil" of limited liability in the case of severe malfeasance and I'd argue this is clearly the case, but our corporate-friendly judges see it otherwise.
- p_j_w 5y ago
  >our corporate-friendly judges see it otherwise. It's unfortunately not just judges. Our lawmakers are in on it. Given that we, the voters, are the ones putting them in place, it seems that we largely don't care, either.
paulpauper 5y ago
2 delivery companies quit.that leaves 1998 others. This is lower than an employee attrition rate. It is only newsworthy because it involves Amazon and they gave a reason which confirms a popular media narrative
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago
  Similar to articles that read "Americans believe X" and natter on about all the panic that we should feel over this problem, then cite their source as a Twitter thread. Yes, someone said that, amd someone retweeted it. But it's disingenous - or, to put it bluntly, lying - to categorize "Amazon delivery companies" or "Americans" from a couple statistical outliers. Get to at least 5% before you call it a trend. Edit: Unless you want to write an article citing the parent comment and myself titled "Internet Commenters Demand Less Clickbait and Better Statistics in Headlines"
sjg007 5y ago
This is an interesting analog of the problem retail workers have on shift scheduling and shift changes. "One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering pay. Amazon’s actions are unlawful." Delivery is probably something you want to run in house and not outsource. It opens them up to another group that could push to unionization though which is probably why they went the Uber route.
sjg007 5y ago
I wonder if Amazon will start stores and do click to collect. Maybe the front half of a warehouse or something. Maybe you'd get some money for bringing your neighbors package back with you.
- clipradiowallet 5y ago
  > Maybe you'd get some money for bringing your neighbors package back with you. That's a pretty cool idea you had there!
dancemethis 5y ago
Oh look, it's the dumb, comma-style, title
rootusrootus 5y ago
That's interesting. I wonder if it has anything to do with why my prime delivery time has jumped to the middle of next week. I get there's a holiday this weekend, but everythign is saying July 6th.
mastrsushi 5y ago
To the American employees complaining about Amazon's ethical practices, just don't work for them. This isn't mainland China, it's not either Foxconn or farm work.
desktopninja 5y ago
Personally feel it won't hurt Amazon one bit unless consumers change their "reliance" on it.
sna1l 5y ago
This is just a scheme for Amazon not to have to hire delivery drivers as full time.
zaroth 5y ago
I work closely with someone who runs one of these Amazon DSPs. He has 70 employees who love working there. In the last 6 months he has had only 2 people leave, and one due to their family moving. He has a military background and he protects his people like they are his own unit. He deals with all the shit that Amazon throws down at him and builds his own processes and procedures to deal with things like day-to-day route variability. The drivers work 10 hours a day 4 days a week. He will go in every morning and tweak the routes that the AI designs so that they can finish their 10 hour route in 8 hours, he still pays them for the full 10. Sometimes they will get done in 6 hours and run another route and make 2.5x their wage on the day. He says the internal Amazon dashboards that track his company performance break due to his numbers. And everyone is making very, very good money with full benefits. I’ve seen the numbers and anyone losing money running one of these shops is just doing a very poor job hiring, training, and managing the process. I scoffed a year ago when he told me he was leaving his job to go do this. Since then I’ve eaten my words.
- emptyparadise 5y ago
  >He will go in every morning and tweak the routes that the AI designs so that they can finish their 10 hour route in 8 hours, he still pays them for the full 10. Amazon definitely wouldn't like to optimize that away.
  - zaroth 5y ago
    There’s a huge mythology apparently in the groups that the DSPs frequently discuss these sorts of things around exactly the “right amount” you should tweak the routes, because apparently the changes are fed back into the model and can impact in strange ways what it will spit out in the future. A lot of managers swear if you take too heavy of a hand in making changes it will screw up the model and you get worse and worse routes each morning. There is apparently an art form to making these tweaks each morning that gently optimizes the routes in a way that doesn’t perturb the model. I couldn’t tell if this was just mysticism surrounding the black box algorithm or if the manual route changes are actually being saved and perhaps being over-fit in subsequent runs of the route solver.
turbinerneiter 5y ago
Amazon, like many other of the big companies, control revenue flow in the economy. It's not the people who crate the value who control the revenue flow, but the ones who have access to the customers.
plank_time 5y ago
The goal is to pay people high at the beginning, get them hooked on the pay, and then squeeze them by lowering pay and they have no choice because Amazon is a monopoly on their services. Have people not figured this out yet? That’s how they get you and transfer all the costs out of their hands. I’m surprised there isn’t more of an outrage over this.
rpmisms 5y ago
Good. Amazon gets to feel some market pressure to pay people better. This is capitalism functioning well.

331 points by watchdogtimer 5y ago

I suspect that amazon specializes in arbitrage. They collect information in a domain (such as delivering stuff to places in a region). They build a detailed map of "easy to deliver" and "horrible to deliver" locations in that region. After that, they take the "Easy to deliver" places for themselves and get a 3rd party to agree to deliver the rest, typically based on some rate scheme that is coarse to assume "average delivery pain" when in fact they're getting only the impossible delivery list.

blakesterz 5y ago

Wow, I guess I never really paid attention to the details behind all the Amazon headlines I see. "In April, Amazon announced it would reduce the amount it paid for drivers from $17.25 to $16.00 an hour, according to the letter...Weeks later, Amazon announced a series of raises for its drivers around the country as part of a public relations push following a union drive at an Amazon warehouse" "Currently, Amazon delivery drivers are expected to deliver upwards of 400 packages a day on 10-hour routes that often extend up to 12 hours." 400 seems crazy, I wondered about UPS. According to Google "At UPS, the average driver makes about 120 deliveries per day, says Jack Levis, the shipping giant's director of process management"

Robotbeat 5y ago
That’s on the order of 50¢ in wages per delivery. Drones & autonomous/semi-autonomous robots can’t compete against super low wage labor. That’s crazy cheap for a delivery driver! (Low wages hold back innovation and improvements in productivity.)
- dylan604 5y ago
  That's just the labor fees. The vans still need to be paid for and maintained, and they still run on fuel.
  - Robotbeat 5y ago
    All pretty cheap compared to the labor costs.
  - HarryHirsch 5y ago
    As if the high-tech solution didn't have to be maintained? Anyway, that's what cheap labour does, it leads to stagnation. Why invest in to improve the state of the art when you can throw more bodies at the problem? There's also the other problem: Jeff Bezos strip-mines the workforce and takes the gains to Washington. Meanwhile his underpaid employees can't invest in their own communities.
    - Robotbeat 5y ago
      I truly believe that increasing the minimum wage (at first just to the same as the 1960s, ie about $12.20/hour, and then adjusting for productivity growth since 1969 to about $20/hour), especially if combined with policies to maintain full employment, Will lead to dramatic increases in productivity as companies are finally forced to properly value human labor. The increase in productivity well help pay for minimum wage increases, making them not purely inflationary or even just redistributionary (although it’ll be that, too… tying minimum wage to productivity growth will have the effect of reducing & limiting income inequality).
      - missedthecue 5y ago
        Why do you cherrypick 1969 and not 1955 where the equivalent number would be $5 an hour today?
        Robotbeat 5y ago
        Pretty obvious, isn’t it? Doesn’t it kind of go without saying that we should progress as a society beyond high water marks set over 50 years ago? Heck, I’ll do one better. Why not pick 1890? “Workers should be paid less today than in 1969” is a sort of crazy thing to say out loud, but here we are.
rightbyte 5y ago
> 400 packages a day on 10-hour routes 40 packages per hour or 90s per package. No wonder the drivers pee in bottles and work unpaid overtime to keep their jobs.
- zouhair 5y ago
  And throw packages like they don't care, as they should.
  - wtf_is_up 5y ago
    How is destroying other people's stuff a reasonable response for you being disgruntled at your employer?
    - GavinMcG 5y ago
      It's not about being disgruntled, it's about not wanting your family to go hungry because you were only able to deliver three hundred packages in ten hours by taking extra care. There's a difference between destroying someone's stuff because you hate your job and just not caring about someone's stuff because you want your job.
      - mavhc 5y ago
        Exactly what the game Papers Please is about
      - IncRnd 5y ago
        > There's a difference between destroying someone's stuff because you hate your job and just not caring about someone's stuff because you want your job. What is the difference, when you said you destroyed the packages in each case?
        nooneknows 5y ago
        The difference is the intention.
Frost1x 5y ago
A lot of corporate gains have been at a cost of squeezing on labor resources in some form or another, either time, lower comp, higher productivity, etc. or some combination of these elements. There has been some innovation in general technology making improvements for labor but a lot is really just doing more, for less, and someone else pocketing the gains. You need look no further than AWS treatment of SEs in their PIP culture to see this. You can only squeeze people so far until they finally step away. The only reason it's being sustained is that people don't have alternative options in many cases and are esentially forced to do it. At some point people will find other options and leave you on your feet but as long as there's a steady stream of desperate people ready to be subjugated to ridiculous working conditions, this will continue.
- mattgreenrocks 5y ago
  > You need look no further than AWS treatment of SEs in their PIP culture to see this. Curious if you or someone else can expound further on this?
  - azar1 5y ago
    https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/internal-amazon-documents-shed-light-on-how-company-pressures-out-6-of-office-workers/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/internal-amazon... HN discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27581797 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27581797
  - IncRnd 5y ago
    I've never worked at Amazon, but I read that as Software Engineers are subjected to progress improvement plans as a way to legally threaten firings in order to make people work extensive hours.
- jmeister 5y ago
  > corporate gains What about customers? They seem to be happy to ignore how the sausage is made, to have stuff delivered to their doorsteps cheap and fast.
whatok 5y ago
Comparing packages to deliveries is apples to oranges. I don't disagree that these jobs are rough but 120 deliveries with an average of 3-4 packages per delivery paints a similar picture.
- nrmitchi 5y ago
  > an average of 3-4 packages per delivery Do you have any source for this? It seems like a really weird assumption to make, especially given that Amazon will already bundle multiple orders into the same package.
  - lostapathy 5y ago
    Conversely, any UPS driver is about guaranteed a handful of business stops that have a dozen to several dozen packages at the stop.
  - burnished 5y ago
    I think their point is that you probably can't compare these two numbers very well because they measure different things, and in the case of Amazon if on average they have 3-4 packages per delivery then the two companies would have very similar numbers. Sidenote, I hate "cant compare apples to oranges" because you eminently can. I'd argue it is much easier to compare things that are very similar! Apples and oranges both have sugars and acids, skins, are recognized as fruits, and are frequently interchangeable. Comparing apples to cranes is much more difficult. "comparing apples to oranges" should mean the comparison is relatively easy to make on a variety of axes!
  - whatok 5y ago
    I should clarify that comment with if you made a naïve assumption of 3-4 packages per delivery then it's a similar workload. I don't doubt that Amazon workers are treated worse than UPS workers but comparing packages to deliveries without normalizing somehow is not productive. The 400 package number from the article is also specifically cited from this company and we have no idea whether that is a nationwide figure while the UPS comment implies that it is.
bradleyankrom 5y ago
I wonder how prevalent those storage lockers are on a typical route … the last few places that I’ve lived have had Amazon or Luxer lockers, ranging from a couple dozen to maybe 100+ individual spaces. The 400/day seems a little more feasible if a quarter or half can be dropped in the same location, but I really have no idea how ubiquitous those lockers are.
specialp 5y ago
Yes and hence like warehouse workers not taking bathroom breaks for fear of being "off-task" Amazon drivers cut corners too. I have seen them blowing through stop signs, and one of them after blowing through a stop sign, ripped a three point turn and came within one foot of my car before my beeping stopped them. I called Amazon and they of course speak of them like they are some completely separate affiliate that has nothing to do with them. This is despite the fact they say Amazon and deliver only Amazon packages.
- MattGaiser 5y ago
  They are basically delivery franchises in my understanding.
- at-fates-hands 5y ago
  >> I called Amazon and they of course speak of them like they are some completely separate affiliate that has nothing to do with them. This by design: Amazon has repeatedly said in court that it is not responsible for the actions of its contractors, citing agreements that require them, as one puts it, to “defend, indemnify and hold harmless Amazon.” Just last week, an operations manager for Amazon testified in Chicago that it signs such agreements with all its “delivery service partners,” who assume the liability and the responsibility for legal costs. The agreements cover “all loss or damage to personal property or bodily harm including death.” Amazon vigilantly enforces the terms of those agreements. In New Jersey, when a contractor’s insurer failed to pay Amazon’s legal bills in a suit brought by a physician injured in a crash, Amazon sued to force the insurer to pick up the tab. In California, the company sued contractors, telling courts that any damages arising from crashes there should be billed to the delivery companies. https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/05/us/amazon-delivery-drivers-accidents.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/09/05/us/amazon-delivery-driver... The whole article was pretty shocking to read. I rarely, if ever buy stuff on Amazon now that I know how they've attempted to wall themselves off from responsibility of what happens with these companies.
  - mattmcknight 5y ago
    If you or I hire a company to ship a package, we are not generally responsible if the driver the shipper hires runs someone over. This same construct should apply at scale.
crazygringo 5y ago
> 400 seems crazy, I wondered about UPS. In cities, an Amazon delivery driver might be delivering 5, 10, or 20 packages to the same building. And in those areas where Amazon is using its own delivery network, UPS packages (non-Amazon) will be far fewer -- often just 1 or a couple or none per day. So it's not crazy. The Amazon driver might be elivering far more packages but making fewer stops. Also, a lot of those packages are the little white-and-blue padded envelopes, almost more like large letters than packages.
- GoodJokes 5y ago
  Found the Amazon astroturfer. Good try though! Cheers!
- KillahBhyte 5y ago
  There may be some sampling bias as you point out, but it is still crazy from my perspective. I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. With the right bundling and route optimization for a specific city or set of parcels I could see some level of improvement due to the things you mention. But 200-300% efficiency gains over businesses that have been profitably providing this service for years? Its exceptional enough to warrant being called crazy at first glance. From the article, "The two Portland delivery companies are demanding a cap at 250 packages and 150 stops per 8.5 hour route" Which seems to indicate that they realize that some bundling will occur and accept it as long as there is an upper bounds on both metrics.
  - crazygringo 5y ago
    > I would suspect that UPS and the other major carriers have optimized this task to death. In the end a great deal of it comes down to volume per delivery location. If UPS is delivering 1 package per day per location, there's nothing they can do to optimize (except skip locations certain days, which nobody wants). It sucks for them. Then Amazon comes along with 5 packages per day per location, and it changes the economics completely. By 200-300% is not unreasonable at all. There's a fact that blew my mind when I first learned it -- that apparently UPS actually loses money delivering packages for Amazon, but makes more profit in the end because the added scale makes it even cheaper to deliver packages for other people. E.g., if it's already dropping off an Amazon package at a location, then it's suddenly much cheaper to drop off the non-Amazon package at the same time.
kevindong 5y ago
I don't think you should be directly comparing UPS and Amazon drivers in this instance. Amazon can pick and choose where they have contractors make deliveries (e.g. non rural areas with higher population densities). UPS serves almost everywhere. Additionally, we don't know what hours UPS drivers work in comparison to Amazon drivers.
zamfi 5y ago
Not justifying Amazon’s labor practices by any means, but Amazon delivery != UPS. It’s quite possible that Amazon only runs its own delivery in areas with a high enough order density that 400 packages/day is possible, and UPS doesn’t restrict itself in this way.

nonfamous 5y ago

> [contract delivery companies] have to adhere to a strict set of rules from Amazon around hiring, pay, delivery times and routes, and more. The only one of these that Amazon has any right to dictate is delivery times (and what they will pay for that delivery). The fact that Amazon has direct control over the contractor’s worker’s pay, and even the ability to fire those workers, is very shocking to me. Remember, this isn’t a situation like Uber: these are not contractors to Amazon, but employees of independent delivery companies.

CobsterLock 5y ago
Are these the same drivers that wear Amazon vests, drive Amazon cars and can only deliver for Amazon? Seems like Amazon is doing some legal loophole with "3rd party" companies to get around actually employing these drivers and giving them the full time benefits they are entitled to by law I'm so tired of this dumb gig economy that isn't long term sustainable.
- SQueeeeeL 5y ago
  It's totally long term sustainable, lol. Did you forget the US literally had a game show host holding the highest political office like a year ago? It's essentially a failed state at this point.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  That's not even gig economy, it's just cutting employee benefits and rights by pretending they're contractors. Same thing uber does, it seems. The gig economy is good in theory - being able to work a few extra hours freelance when you need some extra cash, but giant scummy companies are trying to pretend that this is what they offer in order to screw over their full time employees.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  This isn't a new loophole, though. Major US airlines do the same thing with regional carriers. If you live in the US, you've probably been on a SkyWest flight and not known it. The big difference is SkyWest is regional (they're not on the East Coast), and they contract with America, Delta, and United, so they actually have some leverage.

hourislate 5y ago

I've started to shop directly with some retailers instead of buying through AMZN (ex: Thorne) and I've also noticed that AMZN has become increasingly expensive for many items, sometimes double the price than can be found locally (ex: Allouse). Being a Prime member doesn't really offer me anything that I can't live without. Sometimes I can get next day delivery but usually the item takes longer than 2 days. Recently I started some online shopping at Walmart and have been pleasantly surprised with the price and speed of service (sort of like AMZN use to be). I've decided to cancel my Prime Membership this Aug, mostly because AMZN just isn't competitive and offers less value these days.

claaams 5y ago
I won't ever purchase anything from Amazon that is edible or goes on my body (cosmetics in particular) because of their counterfeit problem. I also try to buy from best buy or other competitors for electronics. Often the price difference might only be 1% or so. I'm not sure the average person realizes how bad it's gotten and they have a lot of momentum.
- InitialLastName 5y ago
  It seems like every e-tailer is getting worse about the quality of their shipped products. I keep getting, if not counterfeits, visibly open-box products sold as new from the websites of places like Wal-mart, Target and Best Buy too. I now do everything I can to buy directly from the manufacturer or their recommended channels (or, in the situations where I feel qualified to evaluate what I'm getting, the used market).

redleggedfrog 5y ago

Vote with your dollars folks. I'm 5 years in to an Amazon boycott and hardly even notice really.

ckdarby 5y ago
What are you using that is even close to the same, offers a similar return guarantees and contactless due to covid?
- peer2pay 5y ago
  If you buy quality goods from companies that care about their products and customers you will barely need any return guarantees. If you buy Amazon junk on the other hand...
  - smolyeet 5y ago
    Every company needs a return policy , in fact the best ones are most likely to honor them and for longer periods of time. I'm not going to buy something more expensive if I can't at least return it if I need to
- orangegreen 5y ago
  I've never been an Amazon customer. I like to buy things in store. If I want something that isn't in a store, I will buy it from eBay. eBay also tends to have better prices than Amazon.
- notsureaboutpg 5y ago
  Obviously it's a principled stance so you have to give up some convenience. Every item on Amazon is available somewhere else. Every retail / online shopping experience can be contactless these days. You might have to wait 5 days instead of 2 for a package but that can be okay.
- ShamelessC 5y ago
  At what point did they say they were using or needed a similar product? Anecdotally, the store experience here from Walmart, Target and Best Buy have provided contactless parking lot delivery via app throughout much of the pandemic. Can't speak for Walmart but Best Buy has a price matching policy and the typical corporate return policy which works fine for me but I'm sure has been annoying for many, just like all corporate policies. It's so strange to me how defensive people can be over corporations when people are told about the option of boycotting. Just...keep shopping there? It's fine. You don't have to boycott and a mob isn't going to judge you if you don't. That doesn't mean you have to pretend it's because it's this like inherently impossible thing. It's a capitalist economy and Amazon has won you over. You feel they provide the best options and there aren't any viable alternatives. In my area there are...but it's just Best Buy and WalMart. "Oh boy, really fighting the power by switching from Amazon to Walmart /s" I go to Best Buy. Never been crazy about that either but I still don't know at what point we all decided waiting two days was somehow preferable to driving for 10-15 minutes to grab a new PS4 controller or whatever. Suggesting that it isn't a noble effort to boycott a clearly unethical corporation though just because you don't want to do it honestly just stinks of insecurity over the fact that you buy things from a company that isn't exactly turning out to be ethical. The situation is far more complicated than that and ultimately each of us get to pick our battles day in and day out. You don't have to pick this one - that's fine. You also don't need to defend a massive corporation on the basis of their competitive advantage in order to make yourself feel better about not boycotting. Sometimes the point of boycotting is that the competitive advantage has come at some other cost to society which is deemed to be too severe. Do you not agree that Amazon has crossed some ethical lines lately? Because _that_ is the discussion we should be having. Amazon can, will and certainly already has been known to defend themselves using their vast fortune. Please stop helping them or if you're going to at least go fill out a job application and get paid to do so.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago

HN really needs to look at these types of headlines - They are written without qualification. 0.001 of Amazon delivery companies shut down 2 out if 2000 delivery companies shut down. Are both probably more accurate.

chewmieser 5y ago
It would just be nice to flag it as a misleading headline or something like that. This is from the guidelines: Otherwise please use the original title, unless it is misleading or linkbait; don't editorialize. We should use the original title but something like a misleading flair would be helpful.
- MaxBarraclough 5y ago
  > We should use the original title but something like a misleading flair would be helpful. When the mods find a title to be problematic, they go ahead and replace it with something better. This seems better than keeping and flagging problematic titles (the approach used on reddit).
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  I like this idea - they are usually pretty obvious and follow a pattern. Usually very broad statements (all workers) with strong language ie "revolt" when reality is different. Air traffic controllers on strike actually meant something back in the day
tech-historian 5y ago
Your assertion is silly. The headline is fine, and this qualifies as news. By your logic, if a US Senator quits, it wouldn't be news because it's only 1% of US Senators?
- whoknowswhat11 5y ago
  Do you not understand the difference between all senators quiting (rare / big news) and one stepping down? You can still report it, just say So and so stepping down.

criddell 5y ago

> "We refused their demands and they followed through with their threat, terminating their contract with us, leaving their employees confused and looking for answers," she continued. "We’re doing everything we can to support the affected employees including connecting them with other Delivery Service Partners in the area who are hiring.” I'd love for that PR person to drive the route one day and see if they can meet the quota. I can't help but to hear a lot of contempt in her statement.

IncRnd 5y ago
Which words in that statement are contemptuous?
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Which words in that statement are contemptuous? Not so much words, but the attitude it displays. It lies and stretches the truth to make it look like these companies are behaving irrationally and destructively and that Amazon is the good guy who cares. It shows contempt for those companies, and contempt for the listener (because they expect us to believe it)
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
    How do you know that it's lies?
- criddell 5y ago
  For one, she's lying: > We’re doing everything we can to support the affected employees
drzaiusapelord 5y ago
Why? She knows the capitalism rat-race as well as you do, its just in her paycheck's interest to say these things just like you do capitalistic contributions for your paycheck. I think the idea that you lead an ethical work life and she doesn't is a bit out there. There's a lot of "but but my capitalism contribution is the only ethical capitalist contribution" in this thread. You're just as guilty as her of that regard. Why aren't you doing the janitors job for a week everytime you think the bathrooms look a bit untidy?

kingsuper20 5y ago

That's interesting, I can't say that I've ever seen an Amazon delivery truck. I've only hit non UPS/USPS driver when getting something big that required freight delivery. I suppose that the article goes in the same pile as the 'how Costco pressures vendors', 'how Walmart beats up it's employees', ranging back to manufacturing companies, traveling farm labor, and block haulers on the pyramids.

yalogin 5y ago

How is it even physically possible to deliver 400 packages in 10 hours? That comes to 1.5 minutes per package. One cannot do it even if it’s in the same area and every house has a package. Amazon employees already pee in a bottle to save time now they need to learn magic too?

robalfonso 5y ago
I think we are missing some information. I know my wife will order items on a separate account, this means some days I get 4/5 packages delivered at the same time. I think a packages/day and stops/day metric would be more helpful
modeless 5y ago
Obviously the targets will be different for different routes. If you assume that's 400 packages delivered to 400 separate single family homes then it doesn't work. But if it's 400 packages delivered to 200 apartments/condos served by 20 mailrooms, that's doable. We often get two or three Amazon packages in one delivery. There are easily 20+ packages dropped off all at once in the mailroom of our building most days.

D13Fd 5y ago

This is more or less how it should be. If Amazon isn't going to offer a good enough deal, then companies shouldn't move packages for them. As more and more people figure it out, other delivery companies will stop working with Amazon as well, although it may be that the deals work out better in places with lower cost-of-living, easier delivery routes (due to climate, geography, etc.), or other advantages. If some other delivery company can figure out how to make it work economically, then they can do the work instead. If nobody is interested in trying to make it work, Amazon will have to either improve the deal it offers or go back to using FedEx/UPS/USPS.

subhro 5y ago
Good points. But, with Amazon taking the lion’s share of online sales, how much of delivery is left outside of Amazon? I am not advocating for Amazon, just wondering if this move is sustainable for the employees while Amazon gets (theoretically) strong armed.
- SQueeeeeL 5y ago
  If they "sell" 20,000 cheap knockoffs smartphones, but no one ships them, did they really sell them? Shipping is crucial to Amazon's business model. The last mile problem is the vulnerable jugular of the e-commerce industry
  - viro 5y ago
    Do you have the money still?
    - wongarsu 5y ago
      Legally yes. Amazon isn't entitled to money for products they don't deliver.
      - klyrs 5y ago
        Even if 1% of the customers fail to demand a refund, this is profitable

MattGaiser 5y ago

A quick post I wrote with some back of the envelope math on this. I thought back two years ago that this was just an exercise in dumping risk onto entrepreneurs. https://qr.ae/TWGBfd https://qr.ae/TWGBfd

axaxs 5y ago

I don't get Amazon's play here. Just charge me more money for items, and pay your people well. I'd rather have a happy safe driver than a miserable one at the end of his or her rope, all so I could save a dollar. Reminds me of Papa John complaining giving his employees healthcare would make prices go up 14 cents per pizza. Seriously? Who cares about 14 cents when ordering a pizza... Amazon's entire value to me is fast delivery. Definitely not lowest prices, and definitely not quality.

notsureaboutpg 5y ago
There are lots of e-commerce sites though, and many of them are nicer to browse, nicer-looking, have more realistic reviews, etc. than Amazon. Amazon absolutely competes on price. I've seen it myself. If Amazon sells something for a buck cheaper, lots and lots of people will go to Amazon for that something and maybe pick up something else from it's recommendation system they forgot they wanted, etc.
amelius 5y ago
> I don't get Amazon's play here. Shareholders, probably.
- skybrian 5y ago
  Not as a matter of hard power because the outside shareholders are usually pretty docile. Management has the power. Shareholder ideology can be used to justify all sorts of things, though.
MattGaiser 5y ago
Amazon competes on price through, especially as Walmart gets into the game.
Y_Y 5y ago
They wouldn't even have to change the prices. Amazon (overall, not necessarily on every sale) is making super-normal profit, in an industry where they dominate among few sellers and there are plenty of barriers to new companies entering and chipping away at the margin.

kingsuper20 5y ago

Clickbait title, it sounds like it's some huge movement, but I take their point. It seems to me that the underlying issue isn't some sort of highly predatory company (Amazon in this case), a lot of them are or were. The main trick is the ability to surveil and analyze employee activity. Imagine a 1950's auto factory where every location, utterance, and move by a worker could be gathered and parsed. I'd say that programmers will get a good healthy dose of that going forward and WFH gave it a good healthy shove.

gumby 5y ago

Bezos truly chose the right time to retire: « Après moi le déluge »!

jweir 5y ago

This is having impact. Noticed last night that all orders to Portland had a delivery date of one week out vs the normal two days.

tsegratis 5y ago

Using AWS supports abuse? At least for me, I think I can't support Amazon's treatment of people. Is there a way we on HN can have an effect here, and could avoiding AWS be a start? Or is there a better way, or am I wrong to draw such conclusions?

sudhirj 5y ago
This road doesn't lead anywhere, for the most part, except withdrawing from society to live in a self-made cabin in the woods. Every cloud provider can be shown to be exploitative, as can every manufacturer of clothing, food, or any other commodity. There's some middle ground where we return to a more artisan-majority society, where we get all our stuff from people who enjoy doing what they do, but this would be widely considered a step backwards.
barbazoo 5y ago
Good point and I think it depends on your own values where you draw the line. If you despise Amazon's practices in one "business unit" enough it might warrant moving off AWS. But then, where do you go? I wouldn't be surprised that you could find unethical behavior at the other conglomerates as well.
ampdepolymerase 5y ago
Not using AWS would not make much of a difference. AWS is a money machine, the parts of Amazon that involve logistics and blue collar work is barely profitable.

PaulDavisThe1st 5y ago

Strive to be Earth’s Best Employer Leaders work every day to create a safer, more productive, higher performing, more diverse, and more just work environment. They lead with empathy, have fun at work, and make it easy for others to have fun. Leaders ask themselves: Are my fellow employees growing? Are they empowered? Are they ready for what’s next? Leaders have a vision for and commitment to their employees’ personal success, whether that be at Amazon or elsewhere. from: https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us/leadership-principles https://www.aboutamazon.com/about-us/leadership-principles

bserge 5y ago
Eh, Google promised to never put ads before user experience in Search. Now the first full screen on mobile is just ads disguised as search results. Do no evil or something.
- nicetryguy 5y ago
  "Nevermind We're Actually Evil Now"

softwaredoug 5y ago

> "The companies were losing money and employees trying to satisfy Amazon and their constant abusive changes,” Tom Rask, an attorney for Last Mile and Triton, told Motherboard. "You have to hire numerous drivers who may or may not be working. One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering pay. Amazon’s actions are unlawful." Sounds miserable. Id shut down too if I was losing money with only 1 client. If this were freelancing it’d be like having to be always available for one client 40 hrs a week, but not knowing if you’ll get to bill 5 hrs or 50… while your rates constantly decrease. There’s no point in having this business

alisonkisk 5y ago
This is basically how shift work in hospitality and service jobs works, and it's terrible. Some people claim it's done intentionally to prevent workers from working other jobs where they might get tired or escape the first job.
- NortySpock 5y ago
  Well, part of it might be intentional. The other part might be just the organic result of shoving the complications of varying hourly load and varying worker availability week-to-week onto those willing or desperate to work extra hours. Schedules get jumbled, work hours get fragmented like a garbage collector's memory management without a compaction step.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    >The other part might be just the organic result of shoving the complications of varying hourly load and varying worker availability week-to-week onto those willing or desperate to work extra hours. Much of the "middle" (or upper middle, however you want to label it) class's luxuries are based on goods and services being cheap enough due to the people at the bottom not having a choice but to deal with unsteady income and changing schedules. I am actually enjoying stores and restaurants closing early because they do not have enough employees, or prices going up so that people cannot constantly afford to eat out. It means there are people that can finally be home with family at dinner time, or if they are working, they are earning a premium for evenings, nights, weekends, etc and perhaps they themselves will be able to enjoy those services.

heywherelogingo 5y ago

Amazon is a cess pit in every respect. I use it once in a blue moon if I can't find an obscure item elsewhere, but I mostly abandoned it some years back. Alternatives have raised their game, and aren't regularly appearing in the news for being a cess pit. Everyone knows it's a cess pit (you can't miss the endless stories) but they like the convenience, and are frankly too lazy too look elsewhere, so the inevitable mock shock, disapproval and tut-tutting all comes off as quite insincere - just a little theatrical etiquette.

missedthecue 5y ago
According to research by Harvard, Amazon has the highest favorability rating in the US aside from the military. https://mobile.twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1410453573100609538 https://mobile.twitter.com/AlecStapp/status/1410453573100609...
robertlagrant 5y ago
I don't think you can infer quality based on an absolute number of negative stories.

fmajid 5y ago

These are last-mile delivery workers. The Information had an excellent article a few weeks back about how dire the conditions are of their long-distance drivers who carry parcels between the warehouses. They have a much higher rate of accidents due to this, with innocent lives mangled and Amazon shielding itself behind the contractor status to dodge liability. (paywalled) https://www.theinformation.com/articles/the-deadly-toll-of-amazons-trucking-boom https://www.theinformation.com/articles/the-deadly-toll-of-a... It is legally possible for judges to "pierce the veil" of limited liability in the case of severe malfeasance and I'd argue this is clearly the case, but our corporate-friendly judges see it otherwise.

p_j_w 5y ago
>our corporate-friendly judges see it otherwise. It's unfortunately not just judges. Our lawmakers are in on it. Given that we, the voters, are the ones putting them in place, it seems that we largely don't care, either.

paulpauper 5y ago

2 delivery companies quit.that leaves 1998 others. This is lower than an employee attrition rate. It is only newsworthy because it involves Amazon and they gave a reason which confirms a popular media narrative

LeifCarrotson 5y ago
Similar to articles that read "Americans believe X" and natter on about all the panic that we should feel over this problem, then cite their source as a Twitter thread. Yes, someone said that, amd someone retweeted it. But it's disingenous - or, to put it bluntly, lying - to categorize "Amazon delivery companies" or "Americans" from a couple statistical outliers. Get to at least 5% before you call it a trend. Edit: Unless you want to write an article citing the parent comment and myself titled "Internet Commenters Demand Less Clickbait and Better Statistics in Headlines"

sjg007 5y ago

This is an interesting analog of the problem retail workers have on shift scheduling and shift changes. "One day Amazon dictates that you have thirty routes, the next day forty, then the day after twenty. You’re supposed to have enough drivers for back-up while Amazon is lowering pay. Amazon’s actions are unlawful." Delivery is probably something you want to run in house and not outsource. It opens them up to another group that could push to unionization though which is probably why they went the Uber route.

sjg007 5y ago

I wonder if Amazon will start stores and do click to collect. Maybe the front half of a warehouse or something. Maybe you'd get some money for bringing your neighbors package back with you.

clipradiowallet 5y ago
> Maybe you'd get some money for bringing your neighbors package back with you. That's a pretty cool idea you had there!

dancemethis 5y ago

Oh look, it's the dumb, comma-style, title

rootusrootus 5y ago

That's interesting. I wonder if it has anything to do with why my prime delivery time has jumped to the middle of next week. I get there's a holiday this weekend, but everythign is saying July 6th.

mastrsushi 5y ago

To the American employees complaining about Amazon's ethical practices, just don't work for them. This isn't mainland China, it's not either Foxconn or farm work.

desktopninja 5y ago

Personally feel it won't hurt Amazon one bit unless consumers change their "reliance" on it.

sna1l 5y ago

This is just a scheme for Amazon not to have to hire delivery drivers as full time.

zaroth 5y ago

I work closely with someone who runs one of these Amazon DSPs. He has 70 employees who love working there. In the last 6 months he has had only 2 people leave, and one due to their family moving. He has a military background and he protects his people like they are his own unit. He deals with all the shit that Amazon throws down at him and builds his own processes and procedures to deal with things like day-to-day route variability. The drivers work 10 hours a day 4 days a week. He will go in every morning and tweak the routes that the AI designs so that they can finish their 10 hour route in 8 hours, he still pays them for the full 10. Sometimes they will get done in 6 hours and run another route and make 2.5x their wage on the day. He says the internal Amazon dashboards that track his company performance break due to his numbers. And everyone is making very, very good money with full benefits. I’ve seen the numbers and anyone losing money running one of these shops is just doing a very poor job hiring, training, and managing the process. I scoffed a year ago when he told me he was leaving his job to go do this. Since then I’ve eaten my words.

emptyparadise 5y ago
>He will go in every morning and tweak the routes that the AI designs so that they can finish their 10 hour route in 8 hours, he still pays them for the full 10. Amazon definitely wouldn't like to optimize that away.
- zaroth 5y ago
  There’s a huge mythology apparently in the groups that the DSPs frequently discuss these sorts of things around exactly the “right amount” you should tweak the routes, because apparently the changes are fed back into the model and can impact in strange ways what it will spit out in the future. A lot of managers swear if you take too heavy of a hand in making changes it will screw up the model and you get worse and worse routes each morning. There is apparently an art form to making these tweaks each morning that gently optimizes the routes in a way that doesn’t perturb the model. I couldn’t tell if this was just mysticism surrounding the black box algorithm or if the manual route changes are actually being saved and perhaps being over-fit in subsequent runs of the route solver.

turbinerneiter 5y ago

Amazon, like many other of the big companies, control revenue flow in the economy. It's not the people who crate the value who control the revenue flow, but the ones who have access to the customers.

plank_time 5y ago

The goal is to pay people high at the beginning, get them hooked on the pay, and then squeeze them by lowering pay and they have no choice because Amazon is a monopoly on their services. Have people not figured this out yet? That’s how they get you and transfer all the costs out of their hands. I’m surprised there isn’t more of an outrage over this.

rpmisms 5y ago

Good. Amazon gets to feel some market pressure to pay people better. This is capitalism functioning well.