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Mexico's Supreme Court has decriminalised the private use of cannabis by adults

392 points by pmoriarty 5y ago

FridayoLeary 5y ago
It's a sad state of affairs when the judicial system of a country feel empowered to pass laws by themselves. -"Today is a historic day for liberties," Supreme Court president Arturo Zaldívar said. Sounds political to me.
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- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  The court reiterated constitutional rights of the citizens legislators infringed on with legislation. Checks and balances.
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- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  You got that wrong. The legislation prohibiting cannabis was unconstitutional.
- jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
  You are ignorant of how the Mexican legal system works.
  - FridayoLeary 5y ago
    educate me. please.
    - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
      So, I'm no lawyer down there, but this is how it was explained to me by a friend down there. What they're doing is within their constitutional mandate. It takes 5 cases to set a precedent, at which point the legislature is on a timer to take action and codify it into law. The 5 cases on this topic happened. The prohibition was found unconstitutional. The legislature has been dragging their feet for 3 years now, repeatedly asking for extensions. As the legislature has failed to act within their given deadline, the court has the right to refuse a further extension, and to take action themselves. This is not the court abusing it's power, this is the court protecting the constitutional rights of Mexican citizens, as they're exactly supposed to. You're projecting your own politics, I assume US based, on a totally different system. Don't do that.
h2odragon 5y ago
Wasn't its banning in the first place an example of international pressuring bullying a smaller nation to pass laws its people didn't want? Did anyone expect the laws to be effective?
- jokethrowaway 5y ago
  Totally but you can say that for a lot of laws that benefit a few rich companies. Politicians with zero accountability and a 5 years time span serve whoever pays more.
  - adventured 5y ago
    Or laws that primarily benefit a small number of rich countries, which is also a very common tactic. The latest big group move is to attack smaller nations competing with lower corporate income tax rates with an enforced minimum. The rich nations are trying to strangle their competitors through a globally mandated minimum corporate tax rate, wiping out a very lucrative path to rise (attract investment, businesses, jobs) for underdeveloped or otherwise poorer nations. It worked so extraordinarily well for Ireland they can't tolerate any more outcomes like that from smaller, weaker nations. They're not willing or able to go lower (Germany, France, the US, Japan, Australia, Canada, etc), so they're going to try to make sure nobody else can either.
    - dmix 5y ago
      It'd be a tough sale in the US In Canada it's 15% federally: https://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/corporatetax/corporate-tax-rates-2021.htm https://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/corporatetax/corporate-... The US was 35% for years and is now 21% (+ 30% in California and 29% in NY). When combined with state/province rates (11-15% in Canada) making it more competitive with Canada: https://files.taxfoundation.org/20210504142352/25-Percent-Corporate-Income-Tax-Rate-under-Biden-Tax-Plan-25-Percent-Corporate-Tax-Rate-2021-US-Competitiveness.png https://files.taxfoundation.org/20210504142352/25-Percent-Co... And in the future: > a 25 percent federal corporate income tax rate would result in a combined average top corporate tax rate of 29.53 percent—higher than the 23.51 average among industrialized countries in the OECD. https://taxfoundation.org/25-percent-corporate-income-tax-rate/ https://taxfoundation.org/25-percent-corporate-income-tax-ra... The US should probably focus more on the endless loopholes, tax reductions, and corporate welfare.
vmception 5y ago
Does anyone understand the ruling and judicial process there, I'm assuming its in Spanish and I also don't know what the case was about. Was this appellate or original jurisdiction, if so how and if not, is that a factor in the Mexican Supreme Court?
- scrooched_moose 5y ago
  I'm still piecing it together, but what I've found so far: In 2018 the Supreme Court declared the prohibition unconstitutional, and gave the legislature a deadline to pass a legalization bill - all the rules necessary for dispensing, growing, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Mexico#2018_Supreme_Court_ruling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Mexico#2018_Suprem... The deadline came and went several times, with a few extensions, and the ruling today was the court decriminalizing it on their own because the legislature couldn't get it done after 3 years and were asking for another extension (see below; they originally had 90 days to do it and were granted over 30 months worth of extensions). https://www.marijuanamoment.net/mexicos-supreme-court-strikes-down-marijuana-prohibition-after-lawmakers-fail-to-act/ https://www.marijuanamoment.net/mexicos-supreme-court-strike... I haven't tracked down what prompted the 2018 ruling. Edit: What I've found: Mexico seems to have a system where 5 similar rulings on the same matter by the Supreme Court set binding judicial precedent for all other judges, and starts a timer whereby the legislature must resolve contradictions. 2 seemingly minor cases in 2018 gave them the 5 needed and started the process: https://www.marijuanamoment.net/mexican-supreme-court-strikes-down-marijuana-prohibition/ https://www.marijuanamoment.net/mexican-supreme-court-strike... Seems like this is about as far as I'm going to get without learning Spanish. Edit2: Probably the last update, but I found a bit about the "5 Ruling" thing: > Later, if the Chambers or the Full Court set case law by five consecutive and uninterrupted decisions, the Supreme Court, once again, will inform the issuing authority of the norm in order to amend the un-constitutional part of the norm within ninety days. > If the unconstitutionality problem persists and it is not solved, the Full Court, with the vote of eight of its members, will expel the norm from the Mexican legal system. If it is a criminal norm, it may have re-troactive effects. It must be noted that this procedu-re is not applicable to norms involving tax matters. https://www.scjn.gob.mx/sites/default/files/pagina/documentos/2019-08/SCJNVisitorsGuideVF.pdf https://www.scjn.gob.mx/sites/default/files/pagina/documento...
easytiger 5y ago
Here's my problem with legalising weed: Smoking it has external problems that are difficult to ever resolve. If you have ever lived beside someone who smokes weed the smell is all permeating, lingers and is absolutely vile. With more people living in apartment buildings it is an increasing problem I have observed.
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- maloshackeros 5y ago
  Could be said with anyone that has a drug or alcohol abuse...
  - easytiger 5y ago
    No. It couldn't. How?
- bitcurious 5y ago
  Since legalized weed in MA most consumers in my circle have switched to edibles and vaping, as they are now available and provably* safe. Previously both were something of a crapshoot.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  I like the smell of most strains of cannabis, but sometimes it is gross (I suspect because it's been mixed with tobacco). If it bothers you, you could take it up with your neighbors just as you would if they were blasting loud music late at night. Criminalizing it just leads to absolutely ruined lives and misery on a much worse scale than just an unpleasant smell.
  - adventured 5y ago
    Taking it up with the neighbors will work zero times out of zero. If you're lucky you'll get a brief reprieve, which will then slip back. This goes for most any annoying, persistent externality when living amongst piles of other people. Their habits and behaviors are not going to change voluntarily to please strangers, even if they initially make a small token gesture to be polite. For anyone dealing with that situation, the only truly effective solution is to make sure the next time that you choose an apartment complex where the landlord does not allow smoking on the premises (whether tobacco or marijuana).
drummer 5y ago
Great. Everyone should be free to put into their body whatever they please. And nature cannot be made 'illegal'.
- Jeff_Brown 5y ago
  The question is what the implications are for a Mexican society where drug gangs are more than a menace. As opposed to legalization, mere decriminalization will increase demand without providing new, legal means to get the marijuana. Then again the gangs get a very small portion of their income from domestic weed sales, so maybe this won't make the situation worse.
- bagacrap 5y ago
  agree but weed is not really natural any more as we've bred it to be far more potent (thc%) than wild varieties
whalesalad 5y ago
Let’s keep this train movin’ baby!
- scrooched_moose 5y ago
  If you saw Clarence Thomas's comments today, it seems a lot more likely: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/clarence-thomas-says-federal-laws-against-marijuana-may-no-longer-n1272524 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/clarence-thom...
  - raunak 5y ago
    Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party.
    - busymom0 5y ago
      > Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party. Please do not get tribal flame wars started especially if you are objectively wrong based on direction of politics. Biden admin is the one which last month banned menthol cigarettes and flavoured tobacco - 86% of blacks and 46% of hispanics prefer menthol cigarettes. Opposite of which, several of the pardons issued by the previous admin were for non-violent drug related crimes thrown in prison for life thanks to the 90s crime bill written by Biden.
      - mholm 5y ago
        It seems disingenuous to me to ignore the absolute harm that menthol cigarettes have done to communities over the past several decades, lump that in with marijuana, and act like they should be treated similarly. This change will likely save hundreds of thousands of lives in the United States[1]. Yes, small freedoms are being taken away. This violates the libertarian ideal. The 90's crime bill you cite is absolutely an issue, and the pardons were good. But sometimes objective freedom and making America better go in different directions, and not always on political lines. [1]: https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/31/tobaccocontrol-2020-056259 https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/31/toba...
seibelj 5y ago
High school, ~2005. A classmate's dad was a fairly high up DEA agent and he came to class to talk about his drug warrioring. Despite all his warrioring, he sadly stated that the DEA probably seized less than 1% of all drugs entering America. So I raised my hand and asked if all the billions we spent on the drug war were wasted considering it seems like a total failure. He about had an aneurysm! Looked like his brain was going to explode that someone would ask this. I wonder how many people devoted their entire lives to this stupid, useless war. Probably one of the most destructive, idiotic things you could spend your life doing.
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  Its true, people will grasp at the most emotionally satisfying course of action with only a measured minority stopping to consider the vision, the math, the costs (societal and otherwise) and the sense. I suspect when those same enraged majority hear "stupid, useless war." (I totally agree by the way) They register it in the same way again: "What?! You want your kids to become drug addicts?" Congratulation to sense, and congratulations to Mexico.
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  Late reply, I just listened to Michael Garfield's Future Fossils podcast with guest Leidy Klotz[0] last night. The subject was subtractive design. Very interesting, part of the discussion regards an 'additive bias' in our thinking. Klotz recounts an academic study he undertook to measure the bias of adding VS subtracting to solve a given problem. I mention this because I think this bias could be useful while analyzing these sort of errors. [0] - https://futurefossils.net/ https://futurefossils.net/
71a54xd 5y ago
This is cool, but clearly laws never really disincentivized bad actors in Mexico. Now I'm just wondering if I can have Fentanyl with my legal Mexican weed?
- cartoonworld 5y ago
  Why would they spike it with fentanyl when people will pay more for the real deal?
  - busymom0 5y ago
    fentanyl provides a "better high" in very small dosages as compared to other heroine or others. Hence dealers trying to make a bigger profit lace their heroine with fentanyl. This is also why users often accidently overdose on heroine because they inject it using the heroine measurements but since it's got fentanyl, it's a lot more potent and thus easily overdosed on.
    - cartoonworld 5y ago
      But marijuana isn't heroin, wouldn't the heroin user prefer heroin over marijuana for their heroin habit? Marijuana users prefer marijuana.
      - busymom0 5y ago
        I am sorry, I thought your reply was to my another comment which was talking about heroine and other hard drugs, not weed. My bad.
- is_dang_erect9 5y ago
  What makes you wonder that?
- stjohnswarts 5y ago
  There are large swathes of Mexico that are under cartel control, thousands of square miles, so I don't think we can really don't think this case makes much difference.
jp0d 5y ago
This should be the way everywhere. There is no reason for weed to be illegal when tobacco is legal. I don't smoke either but I support legalisation or at the very least decriminalisation. At least that way the countries can get tax money and also help people who need counselling instead of charging them with unnecessary crimes. They did this in the Australian Capital Territory. Hopefully they'll legalise it in most states.
- foxes 5y ago
  Because x bad thing is allowed we should also allow y? Ridiculous. I agree it shouldn’t be criminal and having people put into jail over small amounts. But if anything tobacco and alcohol should be restricted too.
  - enchiridion 5y ago
    Are people really so inept that they need the government up tell them what they can and cannot do with their own bodies? Study and publicize the risks, the rest should be left to personal decisions.
    - edgyquant 5y ago
      I agree about the use of cannabis but if you’ve ever lived next to a meth den I don’t think you’d see that and think, “we should legalize this.” Pot heads are one thing, and they don’t usually commit crimes just because they are high, but hard drugs are a completely different ball game that are a lot more nuanced than, “what you do with your body,” meth heads kill people all the time due to the paranoia associated with the drug.
      - dragonwriter 5y ago
        > I agree about the use of cannabis but if you’ve ever lived next to a meth den I don’t think you’d see that and think, “we should legalize this.” “Meth dens”, like “crack houses”, are a thing which prohibition may punish, but does not prevent, but instead creates.
hourislate 5y ago
It's unbelievable that in 2021 Cannabis is still a Schedule 1 Drug but Alcohol and Tobacco are responsible for more death and have killed more people in America than all the Wars. https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-deaths.html https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-death... >Excessive alcohol use is responsible for more than 95,000 deaths in the United States each year, or 261 deaths per day. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/index.htm >Each year, nearly half a million Americans die prematurely of smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke. Another 16 million live with a serious illness caused by smoking. Each year, the United States spends more than $225 billion on medical care to treat smoking-related disease in adults. Our Government is a Kakistocracy. I really don't believe the current administration will legalize it and any election promises were lies.
- rantwasp 5y ago
  you should see what sugar does. I think sugar is even worse than alcohol. We put that shit in everything and our kids are addicted to it by the time they are 5. it's ridiculous. but... weed! think about the children!
  - chillwaves 5y ago
    I'm with you, but I am afraid we are alone out here. Maybe if we could get people to think of sugar as a drug. At least it is refined in a way that makes it dangerous.
    - rantwasp 5y ago
      I have a thing I say and for some reason it always shocks people: "Sugar should be a Schedule I drug" It meet all the criteria but it's so normalized in our society that people are shocked when I argue this point. Now, some some weed? Grab the pitchforks everyone. This pothead is destroying the fabric of our society /s
- unishark 5y ago
  I'd say society is converging towards outlawing all three. Both smoking and alcohol are vastly more limited and regulated than they used to be. Activist groups like MADD who are blocking decriminalization would certainly be happy to also ban all of the above.
rantwasp 5y ago
It's supersad to me that in 2021 this subject is controversial. I think the "war on drugs" charade has gone long enough and it's time to actually do the right thing. Stop targeting minorities with this stupid war and legalize ALL drugs. Period. Offer rehab programs + make sure that whatever is on the market is safe and the effects are well documented and understood.
- mynameisash 5y ago
  > legalize ALL drugs I'm no expert here, and I hope I'm not misreading your statement, but couldn't this be swinging too far in the other direction? It seems like equating marijuana with, say, heroin and meth -- they're all in the category of 'drugs', and we know pot isn't addictive like opiates. The neural pathways these compounds take are important. I'd certainly argue legalization of pot is overdue, but does that mean nothing should be illegal? Not exactly drawing my line in the sand, as I haven't give this much thought. I'm genuinely interested in perspectives on the legalize everything vs some things.
  - pmoriarty 5y ago
    Adults should be allowed to have any mind state they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. If someone wants to have fun skydiving and risk crashing their head in to the ground, let them. It's their choice. If overindulging in whatever activity interferes with a person's life, that should be a medical issue not a criminal one. The War on Drugs is an abject failure and hurts much more than it helps. People are going to be doing these drugs anyway, only with the War on Drugs they're going to be doing so in much more damaging ways (from playing Russian Roulette with mystery drugs, and from the harm that arrests by police, imprisonment, and destruction of families and these people's futures cause).
    - rantwasp 5y ago
      totally agree. also here's the thing: the war on drugs was never about drugs. It was about controlling the masses and about marginalizing certain categories of people. Rich white people could and can do ANY drug they want with virtually no consequence. Let that sink in for a second. If you want to be really outraged look at how crack and cocaine are treated as far as law goes and as far as punishment goes. https://drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/cocaine/difference-crack https://drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/cocaine/difference-crack > Despite the fact that the chemical structure of powder cocaine and crack cocaine is nearly identical, the punishment for crack possession or sales is far greater than that of cocaine. Until 2010, this sentencing disparity was 100 to 1, which means that while just 5 grams of crack would carry a 5-year mandatory minimum, it would take 500 grams of cocaine to trigger the same 5-year sentence. While the law was changed in 2010, there continues to be a disparity of 18 to 1. This sentencing disparity has had a disproportionate impact on poor people and people of color. Statistics show that Black people are more likely to be convicted of crack cocaine offenses (even though the majority of crack cocaine users are white) and white people are more likely to be convicted of powder cocaine offenses. This means that Black people continue to receive far harsher drug sentences than white people even though powder and crack cocaine are nearly identical substances.
spicyramen 5y ago
I'm all for it, but is very annoying having kids and.going to the park and some pot head is smoking because he is free to do so
- fy20 5y ago
  A lot of parks in my city are no smoking and no drinking. There's always one or two people who ignore the rules, but compared to how many there would be otherwise it's good. If someone is doing it near the kids playground I kindly remind them and ask them to go elsewhere while my kids play.
  - dabfiend19 5y ago
    I'm in favor of people smoking pot anywhere you can smoke cigs. most parks have no-smoking laws.
- petre 5y ago
  Maybe ban smoking in parks and beaches and other places where people usually take their kids?
mrwww 5y ago
letting people grow their own is a great step that might take some profit away from the cartels. But part of the game should really be to make the production and large scale sale legal and controlled, and a non-cartel business. Leaving this massive business to organized crime is a huge problem.
qwerty456127 5y ago
"By adults" means teens will still go to jail?

392 points by pmoriarty 5y ago

It's a sad state of affairs when the judicial system of a country feel empowered to pass laws by themselves. -"Today is a historic day for liberties," Supreme Court president Arturo Zaldívar said. Sounds political to me.

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toomuchtodo 5y ago
The court reiterated constitutional rights of the citizens legislators infringed on with legislation. Checks and balances.
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jokethrowaway 5y ago
You got that wrong. The legislation prohibiting cannabis was unconstitutional.
jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
You are ignorant of how the Mexican legal system works.
- FridayoLeary 5y ago
  educate me. please.
  - jasonwatkinspdx 5y ago
    So, I'm no lawyer down there, but this is how it was explained to me by a friend down there. What they're doing is within their constitutional mandate. It takes 5 cases to set a precedent, at which point the legislature is on a timer to take action and codify it into law. The 5 cases on this topic happened. The prohibition was found unconstitutional. The legislature has been dragging their feet for 3 years now, repeatedly asking for extensions. As the legislature has failed to act within their given deadline, the court has the right to refuse a further extension, and to take action themselves. This is not the court abusing it's power, this is the court protecting the constitutional rights of Mexican citizens, as they're exactly supposed to. You're projecting your own politics, I assume US based, on a totally different system. Don't do that.

h2odragon 5y ago

Wasn't its banning in the first place an example of international pressuring bullying a smaller nation to pass laws its people didn't want? Did anyone expect the laws to be effective?

jokethrowaway 5y ago
Totally but you can say that for a lot of laws that benefit a few rich companies. Politicians with zero accountability and a 5 years time span serve whoever pays more.
- adventured 5y ago
  Or laws that primarily benefit a small number of rich countries, which is also a very common tactic. The latest big group move is to attack smaller nations competing with lower corporate income tax rates with an enforced minimum. The rich nations are trying to strangle their competitors through a globally mandated minimum corporate tax rate, wiping out a very lucrative path to rise (attract investment, businesses, jobs) for underdeveloped or otherwise poorer nations. It worked so extraordinarily well for Ireland they can't tolerate any more outcomes like that from smaller, weaker nations. They're not willing or able to go lower (Germany, France, the US, Japan, Australia, Canada, etc), so they're going to try to make sure nobody else can either.
  - dmix 5y ago
    It'd be a tough sale in the US In Canada it's 15% federally: https://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/corporatetax/corporate-tax-rates-2021.htm https://www.taxtips.ca/smallbusiness/corporatetax/corporate-... The US was 35% for years and is now 21% (+ 30% in California and 29% in NY). When combined with state/province rates (11-15% in Canada) making it more competitive with Canada: https://files.taxfoundation.org/20210504142352/25-Percent-Corporate-Income-Tax-Rate-under-Biden-Tax-Plan-25-Percent-Corporate-Tax-Rate-2021-US-Competitiveness.png https://files.taxfoundation.org/20210504142352/25-Percent-Co... And in the future: > a 25 percent federal corporate income tax rate would result in a combined average top corporate tax rate of 29.53 percent—higher than the 23.51 average among industrialized countries in the OECD. https://taxfoundation.org/25-percent-corporate-income-tax-rate/ https://taxfoundation.org/25-percent-corporate-income-tax-ra... The US should probably focus more on the endless loopholes, tax reductions, and corporate welfare.

vmception 5y ago

Does anyone understand the ruling and judicial process there, I'm assuming its in Spanish and I also don't know what the case was about. Was this appellate or original jurisdiction, if so how and if not, is that a factor in the Mexican Supreme Court?

scrooched_moose 5y ago
I'm still piecing it together, but what I've found so far: In 2018 the Supreme Court declared the prohibition unconstitutional, and gave the legislature a deadline to pass a legalization bill - all the rules necessary for dispensing, growing, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Mexico#2018_Supreme_Court_ruling https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cannabis_in_Mexico#2018_Suprem... The deadline came and went several times, with a few extensions, and the ruling today was the court decriminalizing it on their own because the legislature couldn't get it done after 3 years and were asking for another extension (see below; they originally had 90 days to do it and were granted over 30 months worth of extensions). https://www.marijuanamoment.net/mexicos-supreme-court-strikes-down-marijuana-prohibition-after-lawmakers-fail-to-act/ https://www.marijuanamoment.net/mexicos-supreme-court-strike... I haven't tracked down what prompted the 2018 ruling. Edit: What I've found: Mexico seems to have a system where 5 similar rulings on the same matter by the Supreme Court set binding judicial precedent for all other judges, and starts a timer whereby the legislature must resolve contradictions. 2 seemingly minor cases in 2018 gave them the 5 needed and started the process: https://www.marijuanamoment.net/mexican-supreme-court-strikes-down-marijuana-prohibition/ https://www.marijuanamoment.net/mexican-supreme-court-strike... Seems like this is about as far as I'm going to get without learning Spanish. Edit2: Probably the last update, but I found a bit about the "5 Ruling" thing: > Later, if the Chambers or the Full Court set case law by five consecutive and uninterrupted decisions, the Supreme Court, once again, will inform the issuing authority of the norm in order to amend the un-constitutional part of the norm within ninety days. > If the unconstitutionality problem persists and it is not solved, the Full Court, with the vote of eight of its members, will expel the norm from the Mexican legal system. If it is a criminal norm, it may have re-troactive effects. It must be noted that this procedu-re is not applicable to norms involving tax matters. https://www.scjn.gob.mx/sites/default/files/pagina/documentos/2019-08/SCJNVisitorsGuideVF.pdf https://www.scjn.gob.mx/sites/default/files/pagina/documento...

easytiger 5y ago

Here's my problem with legalising weed: Smoking it has external problems that are difficult to ever resolve. If you have ever lived beside someone who smokes weed the smell is all permeating, lingers and is absolutely vile. With more people living in apartment buildings it is an increasing problem I have observed.

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maloshackeros 5y ago
Could be said with anyone that has a drug or alcohol abuse...
- easytiger 5y ago
  No. It couldn't. How?
bitcurious 5y ago
Since legalized weed in MA most consumers in my circle have switched to edibles and vaping, as they are now available and provably* safe. Previously both were something of a crapshoot.
pmoriarty 5y ago
I like the smell of most strains of cannabis, but sometimes it is gross (I suspect because it's been mixed with tobacco). If it bothers you, you could take it up with your neighbors just as you would if they were blasting loud music late at night. Criminalizing it just leads to absolutely ruined lives and misery on a much worse scale than just an unpleasant smell.
- adventured 5y ago
  Taking it up with the neighbors will work zero times out of zero. If you're lucky you'll get a brief reprieve, which will then slip back. This goes for most any annoying, persistent externality when living amongst piles of other people. Their habits and behaviors are not going to change voluntarily to please strangers, even if they initially make a small token gesture to be polite. For anyone dealing with that situation, the only truly effective solution is to make sure the next time that you choose an apartment complex where the landlord does not allow smoking on the premises (whether tobacco or marijuana).

drummer 5y ago

Great. Everyone should be free to put into their body whatever they please. And nature cannot be made 'illegal'.

Jeff_Brown 5y ago
The question is what the implications are for a Mexican society where drug gangs are more than a menace. As opposed to legalization, mere decriminalization will increase demand without providing new, legal means to get the marijuana. Then again the gangs get a very small portion of their income from domestic weed sales, so maybe this won't make the situation worse.
bagacrap 5y ago
agree but weed is not really natural any more as we've bred it to be far more potent (thc%) than wild varieties

whalesalad 5y ago

Let’s keep this train movin’ baby!

scrooched_moose 5y ago
If you saw Clarence Thomas's comments today, it seems a lot more likely: https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/clarence-thomas-says-federal-laws-against-marijuana-may-no-longer-n1272524 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/supreme-court/clarence-thom...
- raunak 5y ago
  Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party.
  - busymom0 5y ago
    > Not as if it matters as long as the GOP holds out on passing anything related to legalization. What a joke of a party. Please do not get tribal flame wars started especially if you are objectively wrong based on direction of politics. Biden admin is the one which last month banned menthol cigarettes and flavoured tobacco - 86% of blacks and 46% of hispanics prefer menthol cigarettes. Opposite of which, several of the pardons issued by the previous admin were for non-violent drug related crimes thrown in prison for life thanks to the 90s crime bill written by Biden.
    - mholm 5y ago
      It seems disingenuous to me to ignore the absolute harm that menthol cigarettes have done to communities over the past several decades, lump that in with marijuana, and act like they should be treated similarly. This change will likely save hundreds of thousands of lives in the United States[1]. Yes, small freedoms are being taken away. This violates the libertarian ideal. The 90's crime bill you cite is absolutely an issue, and the pardons were good. But sometimes objective freedom and making America better go in different directions, and not always on political lines. [1]: https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/31/tobaccocontrol-2020-056259 https://tobaccocontrol.bmj.com/content/early/2021/03/31/toba...

seibelj 5y ago

High school, ~2005. A classmate's dad was a fairly high up DEA agent and he came to class to talk about his drug warrioring. Despite all his warrioring, he sadly stated that the DEA probably seized less than 1% of all drugs entering America. So I raised my hand and asked if all the billions we spent on the drug war were wasted considering it seems like a total failure. He about had an aneurysm! Looked like his brain was going to explode that someone would ask this. I wonder how many people devoted their entire lives to this stupid, useless war. Probably one of the most destructive, idiotic things you could spend your life doing.

cartoonworld 5y ago
Its true, people will grasp at the most emotionally satisfying course of action with only a measured minority stopping to consider the vision, the math, the costs (societal and otherwise) and the sense. I suspect when those same enraged majority hear "stupid, useless war." (I totally agree by the way) They register it in the same way again: "What?! You want your kids to become drug addicts?" Congratulation to sense, and congratulations to Mexico.
cartoonworld 5y ago
Late reply, I just listened to Michael Garfield's Future Fossils podcast with guest Leidy Klotz[0] last night. The subject was subtractive design. Very interesting, part of the discussion regards an 'additive bias' in our thinking. Klotz recounts an academic study he undertook to measure the bias of adding VS subtracting to solve a given problem. I mention this because I think this bias could be useful while analyzing these sort of errors. [0] - https://futurefossils.net/ https://futurefossils.net/

71a54xd 5y ago

This is cool, but clearly laws never really disincentivized bad actors in Mexico. Now I'm just wondering if I can have Fentanyl with my legal Mexican weed?

cartoonworld 5y ago
Why would they spike it with fentanyl when people will pay more for the real deal?
- busymom0 5y ago
  fentanyl provides a "better high" in very small dosages as compared to other heroine or others. Hence dealers trying to make a bigger profit lace their heroine with fentanyl. This is also why users often accidently overdose on heroine because they inject it using the heroine measurements but since it's got fentanyl, it's a lot more potent and thus easily overdosed on.
  - cartoonworld 5y ago
    But marijuana isn't heroin, wouldn't the heroin user prefer heroin over marijuana for their heroin habit? Marijuana users prefer marijuana.
    - busymom0 5y ago
      I am sorry, I thought your reply was to my another comment which was talking about heroine and other hard drugs, not weed. My bad.
is_dang_erect9 5y ago
What makes you wonder that?
stjohnswarts 5y ago
There are large swathes of Mexico that are under cartel control, thousands of square miles, so I don't think we can really don't think this case makes much difference.

jp0d 5y ago

This should be the way everywhere. There is no reason for weed to be illegal when tobacco is legal. I don't smoke either but I support legalisation or at the very least decriminalisation. At least that way the countries can get tax money and also help people who need counselling instead of charging them with unnecessary crimes. They did this in the Australian Capital Territory. Hopefully they'll legalise it in most states.

foxes 5y ago
Because x bad thing is allowed we should also allow y? Ridiculous. I agree it shouldn’t be criminal and having people put into jail over small amounts. But if anything tobacco and alcohol should be restricted too.
- enchiridion 5y ago
  Are people really so inept that they need the government up tell them what they can and cannot do with their own bodies? Study and publicize the risks, the rest should be left to personal decisions.
  - edgyquant 5y ago
    I agree about the use of cannabis but if you’ve ever lived next to a meth den I don’t think you’d see that and think, “we should legalize this.” Pot heads are one thing, and they don’t usually commit crimes just because they are high, but hard drugs are a completely different ball game that are a lot more nuanced than, “what you do with your body,” meth heads kill people all the time due to the paranoia associated with the drug.
    - dragonwriter 5y ago
      > I agree about the use of cannabis but if you’ve ever lived next to a meth den I don’t think you’d see that and think, “we should legalize this.” “Meth dens”, like “crack houses”, are a thing which prohibition may punish, but does not prevent, but instead creates.

hourislate 5y ago

It's unbelievable that in 2021 Cannabis is still a Schedule 1 Drug but Alcohol and Tobacco are responsible for more death and have killed more people in America than all the Wars. https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-deaths.html https://www.cdc.gov/alcohol/features/excessive-alcohol-death... >Excessive alcohol use is responsible for more than 95,000 deaths in the United States each year, or 261 deaths per day. https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/tobacco/data_statistics/index.htm >Each year, nearly half a million Americans die prematurely of smoking or exposure to secondhand smoke. Another 16 million live with a serious illness caused by smoking. Each year, the United States spends more than $225 billion on medical care to treat smoking-related disease in adults. Our Government is a Kakistocracy. I really don't believe the current administration will legalize it and any election promises were lies.

rantwasp 5y ago
you should see what sugar does. I think sugar is even worse than alcohol. We put that shit in everything and our kids are addicted to it by the time they are 5. it's ridiculous. but... weed! think about the children!
- chillwaves 5y ago
  I'm with you, but I am afraid we are alone out here. Maybe if we could get people to think of sugar as a drug. At least it is refined in a way that makes it dangerous.
  - rantwasp 5y ago
    I have a thing I say and for some reason it always shocks people: "Sugar should be a Schedule I drug" It meet all the criteria but it's so normalized in our society that people are shocked when I argue this point. Now, some some weed? Grab the pitchforks everyone. This pothead is destroying the fabric of our society /s
unishark 5y ago
I'd say society is converging towards outlawing all three. Both smoking and alcohol are vastly more limited and regulated than they used to be. Activist groups like MADD who are blocking decriminalization would certainly be happy to also ban all of the above.

rantwasp 5y ago

It's supersad to me that in 2021 this subject is controversial. I think the "war on drugs" charade has gone long enough and it's time to actually do the right thing. Stop targeting minorities with this stupid war and legalize ALL drugs. Period. Offer rehab programs + make sure that whatever is on the market is safe and the effects are well documented and understood.

mynameisash 5y ago
> legalize ALL drugs I'm no expert here, and I hope I'm not misreading your statement, but couldn't this be swinging too far in the other direction? It seems like equating marijuana with, say, heroin and meth -- they're all in the category of 'drugs', and we know pot isn't addictive like opiates. The neural pathways these compounds take are important. I'd certainly argue legalization of pot is overdue, but does that mean nothing should be illegal? Not exactly drawing my line in the sand, as I haven't give this much thought. I'm genuinely interested in perspectives on the legalize everything vs some things.
- pmoriarty 5y ago
  Adults should be allowed to have any mind state they want, as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. If someone wants to have fun skydiving and risk crashing their head in to the ground, let them. It's their choice. If overindulging in whatever activity interferes with a person's life, that should be a medical issue not a criminal one. The War on Drugs is an abject failure and hurts much more than it helps. People are going to be doing these drugs anyway, only with the War on Drugs they're going to be doing so in much more damaging ways (from playing Russian Roulette with mystery drugs, and from the harm that arrests by police, imprisonment, and destruction of families and these people's futures cause).
  - rantwasp 5y ago
    totally agree. also here's the thing: the war on drugs was never about drugs. It was about controlling the masses and about marginalizing certain categories of people. Rich white people could and can do ANY drug they want with virtually no consequence. Let that sink in for a second. If you want to be really outraged look at how crack and cocaine are treated as far as law goes and as far as punishment goes. https://drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/cocaine/difference-crack https://drugpolicy.org/drug-facts/cocaine/difference-crack > Despite the fact that the chemical structure of powder cocaine and crack cocaine is nearly identical, the punishment for crack possession or sales is far greater than that of cocaine. Until 2010, this sentencing disparity was 100 to 1, which means that while just 5 grams of crack would carry a 5-year mandatory minimum, it would take 500 grams of cocaine to trigger the same 5-year sentence. While the law was changed in 2010, there continues to be a disparity of 18 to 1. This sentencing disparity has had a disproportionate impact on poor people and people of color. Statistics show that Black people are more likely to be convicted of crack cocaine offenses (even though the majority of crack cocaine users are white) and white people are more likely to be convicted of powder cocaine offenses. This means that Black people continue to receive far harsher drug sentences than white people even though powder and crack cocaine are nearly identical substances.

spicyramen 5y ago

I'm all for it, but is very annoying having kids and.going to the park and some pot head is smoking because he is free to do so

fy20 5y ago
A lot of parks in my city are no smoking and no drinking. There's always one or two people who ignore the rules, but compared to how many there would be otherwise it's good. If someone is doing it near the kids playground I kindly remind them and ask them to go elsewhere while my kids play.
- dabfiend19 5y ago
  I'm in favor of people smoking pot anywhere you can smoke cigs. most parks have no-smoking laws.
petre 5y ago
Maybe ban smoking in parks and beaches and other places where people usually take their kids?

mrwww 5y ago

letting people grow their own is a great step that might take some profit away from the cartels. But part of the game should really be to make the production and large scale sale legal and controlled, and a non-cartel business. Leaving this massive business to organized crime is a huge problem.

qwerty456127 5y ago

"By adults" means teens will still go to jail?