6 ms·

This is an age-old battle, and it always seems like cyclists lose. Cars don't want bikes on the street, it's "their" space. Pedestrians don't want bikes on th

This is an age-old battle, and it always seems like cyclists lose. Cars don't want bikes on the street, it's "their" space. Pedestrians don't want bikes on the sidewalk, it's "their" space. After many, many years of advocacy, cyclists get a patchwork network of bike lanes -- still dangerous, often filled with double-parked cars -- and now some startup wants that space for pizza delivery robots. Personally, I think enough is enough. If your delivery robot can't "take the lane", then it's not viable and you should go back to the drawing board. Riding your bike in America is already treacherous enough, and this certainly isn't helping. We are already third-class citizens (and afterthought after streets and sidewalks are put in place), and we certainly don't need to go down another rank just because some startup wants the space for robots.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
Bicycles don't belong on a sidewalk. They need to be in the flow of traffic where motor vehicle drivers are aware of their presence. The solution is an optional navigable shoulder that doesn't become an enforced ghetto.
- aikinai 5y ago
  They do just fine on the sidewalks in Japan.
  - stouset 5y ago
    Cyclists are required to ride on the street in Japan.
    - aikinai 5y ago
      They’re supposed to ride in the street unless it could be agreed that it’s safer on the sidewalk, which is both subjective and often true, so riding on the sidewalk is de facto allowed. Edit: People are downvoting this; I guess because they don’t believe it? The law is here[0]. Also 73% of Japanese ride on the sidewalk more than the road[1]. So even without the wide open exceptions to the law, it’s still de facto allowed. [0] https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?lawid=335AC0000000105#5 https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?lawid=335AC0000000105#5 第六十三条の四 … 三前二号に掲げるもののほか、車道又は交通の状況に照らして当該普通自転車の通行の安全を確保するため当該普通自転車が歩道を通行することがやむを得ないと認められるとき。 [1] https://www8.cao.go.jp/koutu/chou-ken/h22/pdf/ref/2-1.pdf https://www8.cao.go.jp/koutu/chou-ken/h22/pdf/ref/2-1.pdf
  - hytdstd 5y ago
    Sure, but in most of the US, riding on the sidewalk is illegal.
    - notatoad 5y ago
      "bicycles shouldn't be allowed on the sidewalk because they aren't allowed on the sidewalk" isn't much of an argument.
      - hytdstd 5y ago
        The law isn't established at the state or federal level. It has been independently established at almost every municipality for good reasons.
        romwell 5y ago
        "Good reasons" like "not caring about cyclists" and "make cycling more dangerous to keep people who can't afford a vehicle away from our neighborhoods"
        hytdstd 5y ago
        Please don't misunderstand me. Cycling on a sidewalk is dangerous to the cyclist, particularly around driveways and intersections, where they are less visible to motorists.
        RijilV 5y ago
        In the same city on the same bike ride I and a friend have been accosted by police for both riding on the sidewalk and in the street. Different cops, blocks apart. The law is subjective and when you’re rolling around in spandex on a multi thousand dollar road bike and a paramilitary USA “peace officer” stops you, the law doesn’t really matter. You just “yes sir” and hope to be allowed to move on
  - adrianN 5y ago
    No they don't. I've cycled in Japan, sometimes on the side walk even though that's technically not allowed. Either you go very slow on the sidewalk or you're a danger to pedestrians. It is also much more dangerous for you at any intersection because cars don't expect objects traveling at bicycle speeds on the sidewalk. The safest place for a bike is a separate bike lane on the road. If no separate infrastructure exists, the next safest place is on the road.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  I don’t know about the last part, but it’s correct that bicycles shouldn’t be on the sidewalk. It’s dangerous to both pedestrians and the cyclist (cars can’t see them, they appear too quickly, and will run into them when they have to drive across the sidewalk).
- bootlooped 5y ago
  In Seoul I seem to recall many of the bike lanes being on the sidewalk, not on the street. The biggest problem I had then was that people seemed to naturally gravitate towards walking on them, so they would often have pedestrians on them, but I think a car hitting a cyclist is worse than a cyclist hitting a pedestrian, so it seems like a good trade off.
  - neom 5y ago
    I only know of one proper bike lane in Seoul that is on a road, and that runs from Sinchon down to the Han. People ride bikes on the sidewalks in Seoul because they're terrified of the taxi's.
unishark 5y ago
I think it's mainly a matter of speed. A little 15 mph robot just fits best in the bike lane. If the robot was a 30 mph moped, then they belong in the street. Also, if e-bikes and bike-speed robots become really numerous in the bike lanes, that should motivate more creation and better maintenance of bike lanes. I'd much rather bike in the street versus the sidewalk. The sidewalk is just far slower and more treacherous. No one rushes in a truck fix a hole or branch blocking a sidewalk. In a car-based country, you want to be included with the favored mode of travel, even if you're second-class there.
- ineptech 5y ago
  > Also, if e-bikes and bike-speed robots become really numerous in the bike lanes, that should motivate more creation and better maintenance of bike lanes. Bike lanes aren't, like, a natural resource to be shared. Cyclists fought hard to get them, in order to cycle on, and now we need to get crowded out of them to subsidize a startup on the theory that, once we can't use the bike lanes, we'll complain some more and maybe get as much space as we have today? I mean, I like pizza and startups and pizza startups and I don't blame them for trying, but my reaction is a very strong fuck no. If you want to use the bike lane, build a pizza delivery robot that can ride a bike.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    > If you want to use the bike lane, build a pizza delivery robot that can ride a bike. How do you feel about bikes with sidecars?
    - thatcat 5y ago
      That's not a cycle. Ithas poor turning and is too wide.
      - Dylan16807 5y ago
        By "that" do you mean bikes with sidecars? Not allowing those is pretty rude. If you mean the current robot, it could surely be redesigned.
Fricken 5y ago
The more slow, small vehicles there are on the roads, the more infrastructure will bend to accommodate them. Pizza delivery bot vehicles are my allies.
- ericmay 5y ago
  That’s true. Put them on the roads and highways.
  - hytdstd 5y ago
    Please don't make bad faith arguments like this.
  - imtringued 5y ago
    We can use this same logic for cyclists.
- Reason077 5y ago
  Exactly. There is currently a debate in the UK about whether to legalise lime-style electric scooters (yes, they’re still mostly illegal here!), and whether they should be allowed in cycle lanes. I say provided they’re small and adhere to the same rules/speeds as bikes, then the more bike lane users we have the better! More traffic in bike lanes creates more demand for bike lanes, so more will get built. This in turn will encourage more cycling, so it’s a win for everyone!
  - underdown 5y ago
    More traffic in bike lanes means more dead cyclists.
    - Reason077 5y ago
      Why? I agree there are more bike-on-bike collisions when cycle lanes get busy (I’ve certainly seen a few in London at rush hour), but unlike car-on-bike collisions, these rarely result in death or serious injury.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
johnrgrace 5y ago
I live in Detroit, and when the "bikes win" they act like assholes. There is a weekly event called slowroll where herds of bikes go down a different route each week in the early evening. When they've rolled past the street I live on I find that for sometimes up to two hours you can't drive your car into or out of the place that I live.

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago

Bicycles don't belong on a sidewalk. They need to be in the flow of traffic where motor vehicle drivers are aware of their presence. The solution is an optional navigable shoulder that doesn't become an enforced ghetto.

aikinai 5y ago
They do just fine on the sidewalks in Japan.
- stouset 5y ago
  Cyclists are required to ride on the street in Japan.
  - aikinai 5y ago
    They’re supposed to ride in the street unless it could be agreed that it’s safer on the sidewalk, which is both subjective and often true, so riding on the sidewalk is de facto allowed. Edit: People are downvoting this; I guess because they don’t believe it? The law is here[0]. Also 73% of Japanese ride on the sidewalk more than the road[1]. So even without the wide open exceptions to the law, it’s still de facto allowed. [0] https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?lawid=335AC0000000105#5 https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?lawid=335AC0000000105#5 第六十三条の四 … 三前二号に掲げるもののほか、車道又は交通の状況に照らして当該普通自転車の通行の安全を確保するため当該普通自転車が歩道を通行することがやむを得ないと認められるとき。 [1] https://www8.cao.go.jp/koutu/chou-ken/h22/pdf/ref/2-1.pdf https://www8.cao.go.jp/koutu/chou-ken/h22/pdf/ref/2-1.pdf
- hytdstd 5y ago
  Sure, but in most of the US, riding on the sidewalk is illegal.
  - notatoad 5y ago
    "bicycles shouldn't be allowed on the sidewalk because they aren't allowed on the sidewalk" isn't much of an argument.
    - hytdstd 5y ago
      The law isn't established at the state or federal level. It has been independently established at almost every municipality for good reasons.
      - romwell 5y ago
        "Good reasons" like "not caring about cyclists" and "make cycling more dangerous to keep people who can't afford a vehicle away from our neighborhoods"
        hytdstd 5y ago
        Please don't misunderstand me. Cycling on a sidewalk is dangerous to the cyclist, particularly around driveways and intersections, where they are less visible to motorists.
      - RijilV 5y ago
        In the same city on the same bike ride I and a friend have been accosted by police for both riding on the sidewalk and in the street. Different cops, blocks apart. The law is subjective and when you’re rolling around in spandex on a multi thousand dollar road bike and a paramilitary USA “peace officer” stops you, the law doesn’t really matter. You just “yes sir” and hope to be allowed to move on
- adrianN 5y ago
  No they don't. I've cycled in Japan, sometimes on the side walk even though that's technically not allowed. Either you go very slow on the sidewalk or you're a danger to pedestrians. It is also much more dangerous for you at any intersection because cars don't expect objects traveling at bicycle speeds on the sidewalk. The safest place for a bike is a separate bike lane on the road. If no separate infrastructure exists, the next safest place is on the road.
fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
I don’t know about the last part, but it’s correct that bicycles shouldn’t be on the sidewalk. It’s dangerous to both pedestrians and the cyclist (cars can’t see them, they appear too quickly, and will run into them when they have to drive across the sidewalk).
bootlooped 5y ago
In Seoul I seem to recall many of the bike lanes being on the sidewalk, not on the street. The biggest problem I had then was that people seemed to naturally gravitate towards walking on them, so they would often have pedestrians on them, but I think a car hitting a cyclist is worse than a cyclist hitting a pedestrian, so it seems like a good trade off.
- neom 5y ago
  I only know of one proper bike lane in Seoul that is on a road, and that runs from Sinchon down to the Han. People ride bikes on the sidewalks in Seoul because they're terrified of the taxi's.

unishark 5y ago

I think it's mainly a matter of speed. A little 15 mph robot just fits best in the bike lane. If the robot was a 30 mph moped, then they belong in the street. Also, if e-bikes and bike-speed robots become really numerous in the bike lanes, that should motivate more creation and better maintenance of bike lanes. I'd much rather bike in the street versus the sidewalk. The sidewalk is just far slower and more treacherous. No one rushes in a truck fix a hole or branch blocking a sidewalk. In a car-based country, you want to be included with the favored mode of travel, even if you're second-class there.

ineptech 5y ago
> Also, if e-bikes and bike-speed robots become really numerous in the bike lanes, that should motivate more creation and better maintenance of bike lanes. Bike lanes aren't, like, a natural resource to be shared. Cyclists fought hard to get them, in order to cycle on, and now we need to get crowded out of them to subsidize a startup on the theory that, once we can't use the bike lanes, we'll complain some more and maybe get as much space as we have today? I mean, I like pizza and startups and pizza startups and I don't blame them for trying, but my reaction is a very strong fuck no. If you want to use the bike lane, build a pizza delivery robot that can ride a bike.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  > If you want to use the bike lane, build a pizza delivery robot that can ride a bike. How do you feel about bikes with sidecars?
  - thatcat 5y ago
    That's not a cycle. Ithas poor turning and is too wide.
    - Dylan16807 5y ago
      By "that" do you mean bikes with sidecars? Not allowing those is pretty rude. If you mean the current robot, it could surely be redesigned.

Fricken 5y ago

The more slow, small vehicles there are on the roads, the more infrastructure will bend to accommodate them. Pizza delivery bot vehicles are my allies.

ericmay 5y ago
That’s true. Put them on the roads and highways.
- hytdstd 5y ago
  Please don't make bad faith arguments like this.
- imtringued 5y ago
  We can use this same logic for cyclists.
Reason077 5y ago
Exactly. There is currently a debate in the UK about whether to legalise lime-style electric scooters (yes, they’re still mostly illegal here!), and whether they should be allowed in cycle lanes. I say provided they’re small and adhere to the same rules/speeds as bikes, then the more bike lane users we have the better! More traffic in bike lanes creates more demand for bike lanes, so more will get built. This in turn will encourage more cycling, so it’s a win for everyone!
- underdown 5y ago
  More traffic in bike lanes means more dead cyclists.
  - Reason077 5y ago
    Why? I agree there are more bike-on-bike collisions when cycle lanes get busy (I’ve certainly seen a few in London at rush hour), but unlike car-on-bike collisions, these rarely result in death or serious injury.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

johnrgrace 5y ago

I live in Detroit, and when the "bikes win" they act like assholes. There is a weekly event called slowroll where herds of bikes go down a different route each week in the early evening. When they've rolled past the street I live on I find that for sometimes up to two hours you can't drive your car into or out of the place that I live.