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Austin cyclists split on sharing bike lanes with pizza delivery robots
- MrStonedOne 5y ago"No automation without universal compensation"
- tass 5y agoWill this really remove cars from the road? I don’t live in Austin but generally see pizza delivered by scooter or small motorbikes. It doesn’t feel very different from just allowing scooters in the bike lane - I don’t think that would be a good idea.
- _delirium 5y agoI believe that Austin already allows scooters in the bike lane, since "micromobility" devices are grouped together with bicycles for most purposes: http://austintexas.gov/page/bicycle-and-micromobility-laws-and-safety http://austintexas.gov/page/bicycle-and-micromobility-laws-a...
- denimnerd42 5y agoI would say that's rare in Texas. I really only have ever see cars in Dallas.
- jrockway 5y agoThis is an age-old battle, and it always seems like cyclists lose. Cars don't want bikes on the street, it's "their" space. Pedestrians don't want bikes on the sidewalk, it's "their" space. After many, many years of advocacy, cyclists get a patchwork network of bike lanes -- still dangerous, often filled with double-parked cars -- and now some startup wants that space for pizza delivery robots. Personally, I think enough is enough. If your delivery robot can't "take the lane", then it's not viable and you should go back to the drawing board. Riding your bike in America is already treacherous enough, and this certainly isn't helping. We are already third-class citizens (and afterthought after streets and sidewalks are put in place), and we certainly don't need to go down another rank just because some startup wants the space for robots.
- kevin_thibedeau 5y agoBicycles don't belong on a sidewalk. They need to be in the flow of traffic where motor vehicle drivers are aware of their presence. The solution is an optional navigable shoulder that doesn't become an enforced ghetto.
- aikinai 5y agoThey do just fine on the sidewalks in Japan.
- stouset 5y agoCyclists are required to ride on the street in Japan.
- aikinai 5y agoThey’re supposed to ride in the street unless it could be agreed that it’s safer on the sidewalk, which is both subjective and often true, so riding on the sidewalk is de facto allowed. Edit: People are downvoting this; I guess because they don’t believe it? The law is here[0]. Also 73% of Japanese ride on the sidewalk more than the road[1]. So even without the wide open exceptions to the law, it’s still de facto allowed. [0] https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?lawid=335AC0000000105#5 https://elaws.e-gov.go.jp/document?lawid=335AC0000000105#5 第六十三条の四 … 三 前二号に掲げるもののほか、車道又は交通の状況に照らして当該普通自転車の通行の安全を確保するため当該普通自転車が歩道を通行することがやむを得ないと認められるとき。 [1] https://www8.cao.go.jp/koutu/chou-ken/h22/pdf/ref/2-1.pdf https://www8.cao.go.jp/koutu/chou-ken/h22/pdf/ref/2-1.pdf
- hytdstd 5y agoSure, but in most of the US, riding on the sidewalk is illegal.
- notatoad 5y ago"bicycles shouldn't be allowed on the sidewalk because they aren't allowed on the sidewalk" isn't much of an argument.
- S_A_P 5y agoIts no longer a bike lane if pizza delivery robots are allowed to use them. I’m too scared to share a roadway on a bike with cars, but why make biking harder with these things?
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- crooked-v 5y agoBikes lanes will never gain any kind of mass popularity so long as they're directly adjacent to traffic lanes, so it's not like it matters that much anyway.
- caseysoftware 5y agoI love that the lede image in the article is a guy on an electric scooter.. not a cyclist. * 10+ year Austinite until I left a few months ago. The City is exceptionally mismanaged.
- doctoboggan 5y agoThats an employee monitoring the "semi-autonomous" vehicle. > For now, an attendant on an electric scooter follows the REV-1 while the machine’s artificial intelligence learns Austin streets.
- hytdstd 5y agoOut of curiosity, how is the city mismanaged?
- caseysoftware 5y agoThe single biggest example: homelessness. The City removed the camping ban in July 2019 allowing homeless people to camp everywhere - even at elementary schools - except in front of City Hall. Later that year, they started buying hotels to house people, paying 3x market rate (even during the pandemic), and as of last month had housed ~200 people in the year+ since purchasing the hotels. When citizens finally voted to restore the ban in May, the City is choosing to not enforce it so they can "come up with a plan." Various budget sleuths estimate the City has spent ~$250M on the problem in the last five years but the City has fought audits to determine the actual number.
- lazypenguin 5y agoIt’s not mismanaged if you are the right demographic. Austin experienced a radical change in culture when the city council discovered it was quite profitable to cater to non-residents. This started with building a large convention center and promoting Austin as a destination for corporate events. Followed by pumping money into large scale socials such as ACL and SXSW. This in effect turned Austin into a “tourist” destination which brought large volumes of well-capitalized people through the city on a regular basis. Businesses adapted to the new clientele and many liked the Austin culture enough to move here. Finally, the city has implemented many policies to attract businesses here with nearly every FANG having a significant presence. This has attracted even more people to move here as there are jobs available and no state income tax. Where this has all gone wrong is that the city has neglected the existing residents while focusing on attracting new ones. The result is that most long-term residents can no longer afford to live here and the racial and socioeconomic diversity has tragically declined as a result. If you are young with no kids or generally fit in the “yuppie” category then Austin will serve you well. Austin’s “starving musicians and artists” of yore are now gone since not many can afford to live in Austin anymore. Perhaps one could say the city has mismanaged its culture but otherwise the city is doing very well and is prosperous.
- knownjorbist 5y agoIMO food delivery services are pretty low on the totem pole of things to automate. Surely this money & engineering effort could be better spent on automating something else. I doubt this makes much of a difference at all, especially to end users.
- fy20 5y agoIf anything it's going to be worse, how is this thing going to reach the intercom to call me when it arrives outside my apartment building and pull open the door? I don't want to have to get dressed and go outside when my food arrives to collect it. For non-food deliveries it could wait until you are ready (maybe even hours), or have some kind of robot accessible locker where the package is left, but food you really want brought to your door.
- hytdstd 5y agoI simply don't see a problem here. The robot arrives, you receive a text or call, you walk outside and pick up your food. I'm sure that most users will prefer to take the short walk to their doorstep instead of paying a premium for hiring a human to deliver food.
- bootlooped 5y ago> I'm sure that most users will prefer to take the short walk to their doorstep instead of paying a premium for hiring a human to deliver food. I think there is an assumption here that the corporations will not simply pocket the profits from automation. It's not like you pay less when you use the self checkout at the grocery store.
- iwangulenko 5y agoThese profits will be reinvested and benefit also the consumer in the end
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- Osmose 5y agoEven if the argument that startups using the bike lane will help push the local government to improve bike infrastructure is true (which I doubt, it'd push the local government to improve startup-friendly road infrastructure), isn't it ridiculous that the local government would only start improving things once a startup could make a ton of money off of it?
- hytdstd 5y agoUltimately, the government picks winners and losers with spending/subsidy and taxation. It's not politically feasible or practical to exhaustively enumerate and tax/subsidize the external costs/benefits of various policies. For example, there are numerous positive externalities associated with installing bike lanes(reduced health care costs, reduced noise, reduced pollution, reduced road wear, etc), but it's all at the cost of possibly increasing road congestion. Of course, local governments are extremely unlikely to improve bike lanes at the behest of a single startup. Bike lanes are already extremely unpopular as is, when the primary users are common neighbors and citizens.
- jeffchien 5y agoThis is perhaps a silly question from a pedestrian/driver, but why exactly is this bad for cyclists? From the article: > It is really surprising if you go on the road and see something foreign, and it’s coming at you at 15 miles per hour. If it's going down the bike lane on the wrong way then I agree, that's bad and should be corrected. There's also this: > Some cyclists remain uncertain about exactly how a REV-1 would move out of a cyclist’s way Would most of the safety objections go away if it just went faster and/or became easier to pass (i.e. smaller width, stay to the right side)?
- addicted 5y agoHow are you supposed to pass this non human powered vehicle in a bike lane? And if I am biking at 5mph, will it stay behind me?
- jeffchien 5y ago> How are you supposed to pass this non human powered vehicle in a bike lane? If I bike at 15mph (and other cyclists are faster), what is supposed to happen? Do I stay to the right, or if the bike lane is too small, get out of the bike lane and onto a ramp when safe? If the bot can do that (like a rear-facing LIDAR), then would the bot be more bearable? > And if I am biking at 5mph, will it stay behind me? Good point. I hope they have solved or will solve that.
- britch 5y ago>> It is really surprising if you go on the road and see something foreign, and it’s coming at you at 15 miles per hour. > If it's going down the bike lane on the wrong way then I agree, that's bad and should be corrected. 15 mph is close to top speed on a bike on even ground (for me at least). If I'm causally biking to dinner, I'm not going that fast. The robot could be "coming at you" from behind. ---- Beside the risks of the robots malfunctioning, I think this would be bad for bicyclists if it goes well. Right now the bots are pretty rare but let's say this is a huge success and a really cheap way to deliver food in a city. I can imagine there being stretches of bike lanes where the right-lane is a bunch of delivery-bots. That does not leave much room for bikes in the bike lane. "Bike lanes" become "delivery lanes". Whether or not this is a likely outcome is another discussion but making it a rule that robots can use the bike lane could have bigger consequences than this trial run. edit: bikes go faster than 15mph
- Animats 5y ago"For now, an attendant on an electric scooter follows the REV-1" Does anybody yet have delivery robots that actually work?
- kart23 5y agostarship, kinda. They go on the sidewalk and operate in limited areas like colleges. They have actually deployed them though, which is more than any other company in the space.
- imtringued 5y agoI'm confused. What do safety measures have to do with whether something actually works? You can have a table saw that both works and kills people.
- chairmanwow1 5y agoI’m an Austin-based cyclist and I’m 100% behind the robots using the bike lane. The quotes in this article are so absurd that it’s laughable.
- ashtonkem 5y agoIt’s infuriating that cyclists have to fight over the scraps of pavement not consumed by cars.
- seibelj 5y agoIt's infuriating that bicyclists run red lights, illegally ride on sidewalks and hit pedestrians, and generally act like the rules only apply when it suits them. Ask anyone who walks or drives in American cities and cyclists are the absolute worst, most aggressive, most illegal entities on the roads.
- __float 5y agoWhy do you think they're ever illegally on the sidewalks in the first place? Probably because the road is, to them, more dangerous than them being on the sidewalk. While there are imperfect operators of every mode of transportation, don't forget that also applies to drivers and pedestrians.
- seibelj 5y agoCyclists on sidewalks while pedestrians are present should walk their bikes. A pedestrian is not expecting a piece of metal moving at 20+ MPH to whiz past them as they are walking, and could step right into them. Cyclists who hurt a pedestrian on the sidewalk are culpable for any damage they cause, and I would argue they should be penalized very harshly.
- R0b0t1 5y agoI've seen papers that evaluate the behavior of cyclists and see that when they do break the law (e.g. not stopping at a stop sign) they actually do so to increase their safety. Less time in an intersection means less chance to get hit.
- lupire 5y agoIncrease whose safety? Cars get "safer" every year by being more dangerous to everyone else.
- throwawayboise 5y agoThese delivery droids are just going to be targets to be shot at, tipped over, spray painted, and generally abused. I predict a short-lived trial period and then they will be abandonded.
- failwhaleshark 5y agoYeap. Rickshaws gonna get sawed.
- HKH2 5y agoI expected p2p share bikes to be treated better than how they have been treated. I can't imagine delivery droids faring much better.
- failwhaleshark 5y agoIf I were homeless and hangry AF, I would have a crowbar handy to get me some free yuppie-hipster pizza. Also, Whole Foods' freeganning is a must for everyone tired of Amazon's insane "convenience" (vulture capitalism) pricing.
- failwhaleshark 5y agoIn the US: If one of these contraptions appeared on your property and didn't leave, is it your property now, as much as any mistaken delivery? I'm thinking about lots of "whoopsie-doodles" for interested parties who might want to hack on these for other purposes.
- onion2k 5y agoSurely there's no country on Earth where "it's on my property therefore it belongs to me now" has any basis in law. That would be totally unworkable.
- hytdstd 5y agoNot quite true; mail delivered to your address is legally yours. A retailer who accidentally ships a crate rather than a unit of headphones has no legal right to mandate that you return received merchandise. edit: I should've been clear in stating that it is _unsolicited_ mail addressed to your name and address that is legally yours.
- mssundaram 5y agoThis really sounds like the title of an Onion article
- aeharding 5y agoIn my opinion, these robots should just drive in the street with cars. If they get run over, nobody gets hurt. It might actually make things safer by forcing drivers to pay more attention!
- foobar33333 5y agoThey can follow the road rules perfectly and every time one gets destroyed the driver gets sent the bill for reckless driving and potentially has their license status reviewed. Seems like a pretty good system.
- tzs 5y agoI think you are right that drivers will pay more attention to them, but I came to the opposite conclusion. They look big enough to cause serious damage to your car if you hit one, so I think you are right that drivers will pay attention to them. But I think drivers will also want to pass them, increasing the chances that drivers will use the bike lanes as passing lanes. Furthermore, I think drivers will not trust the delivery robots, so when they are passing they will be paying attention to the robot, increasing the chances the drivers will not notice a cyclist in the bike lane. Put the robots in the bike lanes and then that increases driver attention will be going toward keeping the car out of the bike lane.
- aeharding 5y agoThe picture in the article is of a protected two way bike path. If the robot was in the car lane here, a driver could not pass in the bike path. I could envision problems with unprotected bike lanes, but those are dangerous by design [1]. However, a robot clinging to the rightmost side of a car lane next to an unprotected bike lane could easily make passing in the unprotected bike lane infeasible. But, this is all just speculation. [1] https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/05/29/protect-yourself-separated-bike-lanes-means-safer-streets-study-says/ https://usa.streetsblog.org/2019/05/29/protect-yourself-sepa...
- barnaclejive 5y agoI, for one, welcome our new pizza delivery robot overlords.
- failwhaleshark 5y agoI ride my personal scooter at 0~40 mph in the road and in the bike lanes. When I see for-rent scooters dumped blocking public commons, I stop and throw them in the nearest gutter, dumpster, sewer, or river to hold the companies responsible for their users monetarily. If I see a pizza-delivery robot going 5 mph in a bike lane, I'm going to kick it to the curb or run-over it. And, I'll make sure everyone else does the same. They can pay bike messengers who need the work rather than being job-stealing, pointless automation assholes.
- r3drock 5y agoI am curious about your rationale of throwing scooters in the river. Are you not aware that the batteries will leak and pollute the river?
- failwhaleshark 5y ago> will implies omniscient, inevitable certainty in an indefinite timeframe beyond the scope of reasonable >leak implies absolutely certainty of failure... from what failure mode and in what timeframe? > and pollute the river Pathos appeal. "You're a meanie to the fishies and dolphins who use a filthy drainage ditch masquerading as a river to spawn their entire species." You're clearly not an engineer, don't understand how these are manufactured, nor how these are life-cycled... with bloody GPS on them 24x7. Go away until you have something meaningful to add that doesn't sound like you actually create a 60k-page environmental impact report before putting on your shoes made from fossil fuels, animals, and/or (gasp!) "chemicals." > I am curious about your rationale of throwing scooters in the river. No, you're not, you're a do-nothing troll.
- imtringued 5y ago>You're clearly not an engineer, don't understand how these are manufactured, nor how these are life-cycled... with bloody GPS on them 24x7. The grunts collecting these machines don't get paid enough to fish them out of the river. They're gonna get marked as missing and the company will replace them with a new one. Edit: For all I know they could end up building rescue robots that also get thrown into the river.
- carlospwk 5y ago“A statement from Austin’s Transportation Department says it had provided a list of groups Refraction AI should reach out to ahead of launching service here. The list of groups included the Bicycle Advisory Council. The company provided no briefing to the BAC ahead of the launch, although it was planning to speak to some members Wednesday.” great. let’s dump a bunch of experimental AI tech on already scare bike lanes without consultation, which, if successful, will decimate both the only easy to enter low skill job pool AND clog up bike lanes. just look at the massive PITA rent scooters have caused in city centers around the world, this has the potential to cause even more disruption.
- RhysU 5y ago> experimental AI tech Doesn't this phrase also refer to every human bicyclist's brain? Human bicyclists generally are not required to be licensed.
- hytdstd 5y agoThe argument against sharing bike lanes with robots is absurd to me. Of course, if bikes lanes become thoroughly congested with such robots, then it's a problem. But until then, all bike lane users-- cyclists, scooter riders and skaters-- benefit from motorists gaining familiarity with driving next to an occupied bike lane.
- xbar 5y agoAustin prioritizes cars over bikes even though the benefits of doing it in reverse are obvious. Robots as cars would have been better for the people of Austin.
- weird-eye-issue 5y agoAustin is so spread out and is over 90 degrees for a lot of the year. Biking is just not an option for most things. I'd say being able to bike somewhere is an edge case for most people.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- dvh 5y agoWhy not simply cook at home?
- hytdstd 5y agoPeople ordering delivery/eating out is good for the economy. While I personally rarely order food, I'm all for it.
- lupire 5y agoGiving away money or paying for entertainment is more efficiently better for the economy without all the problems.
- bootlooped 5y agoI order delivery for two reasons: 1. I am short on time, energy, or groceries 2. I want to treat myself, but to not have to leave the home to get it
- bradleyjg 5y agoDo you sew your own clothes?
- lupire 5y agoClothes don't go bad during delivery, and can efficiently be delivered in bulk to many customers in a reasonable time frame. Better comparison: Yes, I dress myself at home instead of having a person or not come it for me each time.
- bradleyjg 5y agoThere’s economies of scale in food preparation. There’s no economies of scale to be had in dressing. It’s true that there are also diseconomies of scale in food distribution, the balance can point in either direction depending on the details, but the moralism around preparing one’s own food is completely unwarranted.
- wallacoloo 5y agoHow do things change if you take the exact same vehicle and replace the pizza with a human passenger? From the point of view of everyone else on the road, it’s the exact same scenario, yet I’m not sure it’d be received the same way.
- yummybear 5y agoI wouldn’t want to be killed over a pizza.
- Dylan16807 5y agoDecreasing the number of pizza cars is a factor that will help that wish.
- Animats 5y agoWe now have a continuum of narrow vehicles from Razr scooters up to Harleys. Push scooters, electric scooters, pedaled bicycles, partially powered bicycles, fully powered bicycles, motor scooters, and motorcycles are all contending for the low speed lane. Plus pedestrians. Plus wheelchairs and other vehicles for the disabled. Plus the exotics - Segways, "hoverboards", uniwheels, robots, etc. The last big battle over who gets to use the bike lane was over allowing powered bicycles in bike lanes. The trouble is that E-bikes have reached scooter and moped performance levels. (In speed, anyway. Braking, not so much.) So far, the robots are pretty slow. They're more likely to be an obstruction than run over people.
- 3327 5y agoHappy to end the debate for HN: If(robot) == bike Bike lane Else Car lane
- literallyaduck 5y agoTrying to mix cars and bicycles was a bad idea, throwing delivery robots in the mix just worsens an already bad situation. Parked cars, road work signs and other obstructions plague bike lines and cyclists ride two or three wide clogging the car lanes and once grandma sits behind them obscuring the view, the angry drivers behind drive wrecklessly around and maim or hurt someone. How about we have car cities and bike cities and don't try to mix. The robots can fly and we can make them have a bond so when they hurt someone or something the money is already there and they get grounded until FAA clears them.