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To me Telegram feels like the red corner district of a city. I simply don't feel like I can trust it, there's something very shady about it. I wouldn't be surpr

To me Telegram feels like the red corner district of a city. I simply don't feel like I can trust it, there's something very shady about it. I wouldn't be surprised if Telegram reads those exclusive Bitcoin whale groups and uses that insider info. Group chats are not end to end encrypted. That being said, WhatsApp is like the authorized garage where you know that you'll get the service which is officially recognized (by the government) and will keep your car's value "at its best", but which screws you over in so many ways. Everything else is somewhere in between these two platforms.

Egrodo 5y ago
Curious how WhatsApp makes you feel screwed over? The work they do to ensure end to end encryption is impressive.
- stereoradonc 5y ago
  They hold the decryption keys. Isn't it?
- nokya 5y ago
  Facebook doesn't really get a strong advantage in keeping keys to read your messages on its own servers. Intelligence services would benefit from this, so would fraudulent or corrupted employees. For Facebook, storing keys to your message is more a burden, if anything. Facebook derives valuable data about you through WhatsApp in three channels: - analyzing the content of your discussions before they get encrypted and sent, - the app acts like a Trojan horse into you smartphone. It collects data such as your device model, geolocation, contacts, text messages with all activation/verification texts from third parties, the list of apps you installed, when you wake up or go to bed, when you sleep or do other things in bed (thank you gyroscopic sensors), etc. - Through the correlation of real-time data collected from other smartphones, Facebook also acquires who you met, spend time with, where and when. As you can see, you don't get end to end encryption for philanthropic reasons but because that's simply not where the money is and that's what gullible customers ask for. end to end encryption is like when you get offered tap water at the restaurant: for many customers, it provides then with a feeling of self satisfaction. But it doesn't improve the quality of the food at all... Hope I brought some light in the topic :)
  - ec109685 5y ago
    On iOS apps can’t find out what other apps you have installed. With gdpr, you can at least download all the data they have collected about you. Have you verified your Trojan horse claim?
    - vngzs 5y ago
      Many of these claims are described in [0]: > WhatsApp still won't be able to access any of your communications or share them with Facebook. Meanwhile, WhatsApp will be able to share user account information like your phone number, logs of how long and how often you use WhatsApp, device identifiers, IP addresses, and other details about your device with Facebook. Plus, WhatsApp can share transaction and payment data, cookies, and location information with Facebook if you grant permission. All of which has been true since 2016. More is detailed in the WhatsApp privacy policy [1] (emphasis mine): > We collect information about your activity on our Services, like service-related, diagnostic, and performance information. This includes information about your activity (including how you use our Services, your Services settings, how you interact with others using our Services (including when you interact with a business), and the time, frequency, and duration of your activities and interactions), log files, and diagnostic, crash, website, and performance logs and reports. This also includes information about when you registered to use our Services; the features you use like our messaging, calling, Status, groups (including group name, group picture, group description), payments or business features; profile photo, "about" information; whether you are online, when you last used our Services (your "last seen"); and when you last updated your "about" information. I suspect nokya was exaggerating somewhat, but only somewhat. [0]: https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-privacy-policy-facebook-data-sharing/ https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-privacy-policy-facebook... [1]: https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/privacy-policy https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/privacy-policy
      - skinnymuch 5y ago
        None of this is about knowing apps you have installed. Cant be exaggeration if it isn’t true in any sense. That’s the only specific point brought up by your parent comment.
- jhabdas 5y ago
  Facebook works directly with oppressive central governments to implement censorship against their citizens.[1] Some might consider that getting screwed over. [1] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2019_Jakarta_protests_and_riots#Censorship https://wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2019_Jakarta_protests_and_rio...
godelski 5y ago
I laughed at this, but am curious where you place Signal and Matrix in this analogy? Both feel like good services that aren't authorized, per say.
- pmlnr 5y ago
  XMPP would be the local electrician with a mustache and a calm tone that can fix anything for you pennies. We used to have them in Hungary. I miss them. "Szaki"
  - jhugo 5y ago
    XMPP would be a loosely-organised community of people who know how to fix their own car and might be willing to fix yours for beers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dan-robertson 5y ago
I’m not sure I’d want group chats with thousands of members to be end-to-end encrypted. It doesn’t even seem that clear what the actual utility of it would be.
- meowface 5y ago
  I agree, but where are you getting that number from? They said "group chats", not "massive group chats". I would certainly want group chats with less than 20 people to be end-to-end encrypted, if it were possible. I think a decent compromise would be just enabling it by default for private group chats, since it'd be costly and pretty pointless for public ones.
  - tinus_hn 5y ago
    There is no point in encrypting the content of these public groups if anyone can just join and get access.
    - meowface 5y ago
      Right, that's what I was saying. There's just some confusion because the original poster was talking about small/medium-sized private chats, and then the replier wrote "I'm not sure I’d want group chats with thousands of members to be end-to-end encrypted" for some reason. There's no point to encrypting public group chats. There's a ton of point to encrypting private group chats. They should support it for private chats and it should be the default. Or, better, there should be no way to disable it, even.
- jtsiskin 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
- est31 5y ago
  From a defensive perspective, I agree, but from an offensive perspective it's way easier to, say, download the contents of the 500 largest channels in the country than having to join those channels yourself.
reader_mode 5y ago
Telegram works better as a chat app for my use case which is why I prefer it. I use an iPhone for iOS development and as a backup phone, I use Android as a daily driver - WhatsApp couldn't sync history when I broke my phone twice in a year and had to switch to iPhone. And I prefer using a desktop app over mobile one, if my phone dies I can still use telegram desktop (this was useful a few times I left my phone in the car and wife drove off with it, I could keep using telegram to message her, my only other option would be messenger at that point). I don't mind privacy implications of my random chats being read by telegram.
phwak 5y ago
> Group chats are not end to end encrypted. End-to-end encrypted group chats are currently in the works. Source - https://t.me/durovschat/518625 https://t.me/durovschat/518625
- winrid 5y ago
  This doesn't say anything about encryption.
  - phwak 5y ago
    Read again, it does. Durov mentioned they've been working on group "secret" chats. Secret is just another term for end-to-end encryption in telegram.
    - winrid 5y ago
      Ah. When I first read it, all I saw was the "self destructing". I suppose my eyes glanced over "secret"....
andrepd 5y ago
Well I don't think secure and high-quality applications like Signal fit in that spectrum :p
alanwreath 5y ago
I don’t know if it’s the Russian style or the slightly nsfw emoji it packs by default but the program feels sus. Plus, I feel like it’s only hot news recently because of the Trump-follower-exodus. Plus all the gushing in this thread seems a bit over the top. What’s special about it over WhatsApp or heck even WeChat?
- nucleardog 5y ago
  It Just Works(TM). Easy onboarding, doesn’t complain if you don’t let it vacuum up your entire address book, simple and usable interface, syncing is flawless, native desktop client, first party library for integrations and support of third party clients. If you’re not willing to sacrifice too much UX for privacy, it kicks the pants off of a lot alternatives while still, ostensibly, not being the worst offender privacy-wise.
allarm 5y ago
Telegram is recognized by i.e. Singapore government. They have multiple official channels in Telegram, including ministry of manpower, public housing authority and ministry of foreign affairs. The official government site has their Telegram group as well.
- stereoradonc 5y ago
  This is news to me. I assumed that they had presence because of outreach but this could hold true for most other governments.
- truth_ 5y ago
  Indian government has official channels in Telegram, too.
wiradikusuma 5y ago
I think maybe because your family and coworkers live in WhatsApp, while your dodgy friends and "random" groups are in Telegram? That's my case :)
throwaway13337 5y ago
Care to qualify that speculation with some evidence? It seems like whenever telegram is brought up here, there's a lot of speculation about it not being trustworthy but no concrete evidence. The client is open source. While not end to end encrypted by default, it shares that property with most messengers. E2E limits search-ability and other features so it's a tradeoff. I have to wonder if part of why this is mostly brought up is due to the origin of the app being a group with a Russian nationality. That's pretty sad. The app is damn good. The best messenger app I've used - much better than signal. I'm so disappointed by this attitude.
- colordrops 5y ago
  When it first started getting popular I was curious about whether they were trustworthy, so I chatted with the devs and they said it was 100% open source. I looked through the source and found a pre-compiled binary blob buried deep in the folder structure, and they came up with some strange excuse that I can't recall and then it disappeared after a while. Also, the evidence that it's not end to end encrypted by default for many operations is out in the open.
- stereoradonc 5y ago
  I( completely agree with whatever you have listed here and the reason why the app is up for bashing is because of the antecedents of the owner. How does everything which has its origins in US is touched up with fairy duust while anything that may have a remote link with Russia is garbage? Signal is garbage. They are riding on the coattails of marketing (and that's what investment money does)
  - bhtru 5y ago
    Care to elaborate why you believe Signal is garbage? Is it for technical reasons?
    - stereoradonc 5y ago
      1) Platform sync is bad. 2) Backups drain my battery. 3) Notifications across platform are weird. 4) Video calling quality is now an issue. Previously it wasn't. 5) No usernames and no ingrained privacy controls to prevent users from calling me.
ranguna 5y ago
Signal is recognazied by many European governments, and WhatsApp is just a street dog that was once loved and is now hated because it misbehaved.
hansel_der 5y ago
really like your garage analogy. the missing piece seems to be the type of car. if i put down a years income for a new car, the 'authorized garage' has it's perks because the value of holesome repairs is probably greater than the cost. if on the other hand one has a ten year old, used car, which main purpose is a means of transport, that greasy, dusty garage, were the mechanic will let you know that there was only one screw missing and charges you a few bucks is golden.
risyachka 5y ago
None of the messengers except Signal give any confidence in being really private. And when comparing Telegram and Whatsapp shady-wise, only one of them has obvious many reasons to track you as much as technically and legally possible. And when it comes to app performance, UX and ease of use - Telegram beats all others with a huge margin.
temptemptemp111 5y ago
All we need now is Durov to release telegram-server so we can self host like wire-server. Yes I realize it isn't federated, but this could massively help the FOSS community on a bunch of efforts. No excuse really. They can always do whatever internally with telegram-server and we'd be none-the-wiser... Even some extra obfuscation for security ;p
stereoradonc 5y ago
Telegram accomodates over 200,000 users. I have my own community around Telegram; it has nothing to do with Crypto. Bots manage the rush; block words filter out conversations; spammers are blocked in their track, auto-delete or auto-removal of messages (if and when required). Privacy controls on voice/video calling, restrictions on who can add me to groups and so on. Intelligent cache without looming storage limits on my device. Efficient application that doesn't drain battery. Cross platform client that even works in modern browser and remains in perfect sync. I wonder why you are forgetting the virtues and only focused on the "shady aspects".

Egrodo 5y ago

Curious how WhatsApp makes you feel screwed over? The work they do to ensure end to end encryption is impressive.

stereoradonc 5y ago
They hold the decryption keys. Isn't it?
nokya 5y ago
Facebook doesn't really get a strong advantage in keeping keys to read your messages on its own servers. Intelligence services would benefit from this, so would fraudulent or corrupted employees. For Facebook, storing keys to your message is more a burden, if anything. Facebook derives valuable data about you through WhatsApp in three channels: - analyzing the content of your discussions before they get encrypted and sent, - the app acts like a Trojan horse into you smartphone. It collects data such as your device model, geolocation, contacts, text messages with all activation/verification texts from third parties, the list of apps you installed, when you wake up or go to bed, when you sleep or do other things in bed (thank you gyroscopic sensors), etc. - Through the correlation of real-time data collected from other smartphones, Facebook also acquires who you met, spend time with, where and when. As you can see, you don't get end to end encryption for philanthropic reasons but because that's simply not where the money is and that's what gullible customers ask for. end to end encryption is like when you get offered tap water at the restaurant: for many customers, it provides then with a feeling of self satisfaction. But it doesn't improve the quality of the food at all... Hope I brought some light in the topic :)
- ec109685 5y ago
  On iOS apps can’t find out what other apps you have installed. With gdpr, you can at least download all the data they have collected about you. Have you verified your Trojan horse claim?
  - vngzs 5y ago
    Many of these claims are described in [0]: > WhatsApp still won't be able to access any of your communications or share them with Facebook. Meanwhile, WhatsApp will be able to share user account information like your phone number, logs of how long and how often you use WhatsApp, device identifiers, IP addresses, and other details about your device with Facebook. Plus, WhatsApp can share transaction and payment data, cookies, and location information with Facebook if you grant permission. All of which has been true since 2016. More is detailed in the WhatsApp privacy policy [1] (emphasis mine): > We collect information about your activity on our Services, like service-related, diagnostic, and performance information. This includes information about your activity (including how you use our Services, your Services settings, how you interact with others using our Services (including when you interact with a business), and the time, frequency, and duration of your activities and interactions), log files, and diagnostic, crash, website, and performance logs and reports. This also includes information about when you registered to use our Services; the features you use like our messaging, calling, Status, groups (including group name, group picture, group description), payments or business features; profile photo, "about" information; whether you are online, when you last used our Services (your "last seen"); and when you last updated your "about" information. I suspect nokya was exaggerating somewhat, but only somewhat. [0]: https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-privacy-policy-facebook-data-sharing/ https://www.wired.com/story/whatsapp-privacy-policy-facebook... [1]: https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/privacy-policy https://www.whatsapp.com/legal/privacy-policy
    - skinnymuch 5y ago
      None of this is about knowing apps you have installed. Cant be exaggeration if it isn’t true in any sense. That’s the only specific point brought up by your parent comment.
jhabdas 5y ago
Facebook works directly with oppressive central governments to implement censorship against their citizens.[1] Some might consider that getting screwed over. [1] https://wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2019_Jakarta_protests_and_riots#Censorship https://wikipedia.org/wiki/May_2019_Jakarta_protests_and_rio...

godelski 5y ago

I laughed at this, but am curious where you place Signal and Matrix in this analogy? Both feel like good services that aren't authorized, per say.

pmlnr 5y ago
XMPP would be the local electrician with a mustache and a calm tone that can fix anything for you pennies. We used to have them in Hungary. I miss them. "Szaki"
- jhugo 5y ago
  XMPP would be a loosely-organised community of people who know how to fix their own car and might be willing to fix yours for beers.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dan-robertson 5y ago

I’m not sure I’d want group chats with thousands of members to be end-to-end encrypted. It doesn’t even seem that clear what the actual utility of it would be.

meowface 5y ago
I agree, but where are you getting that number from? They said "group chats", not "massive group chats". I would certainly want group chats with less than 20 people to be end-to-end encrypted, if it were possible. I think a decent compromise would be just enabling it by default for private group chats, since it'd be costly and pretty pointless for public ones.
- tinus_hn 5y ago
  There is no point in encrypting the content of these public groups if anyone can just join and get access.
  - meowface 5y ago
    Right, that's what I was saying. There's just some confusion because the original poster was talking about small/medium-sized private chats, and then the replier wrote "I'm not sure I’d want group chats with thousands of members to be end-to-end encrypted" for some reason. There's no point to encrypting public group chats. There's a ton of point to encrypting private group chats. They should support it for private chats and it should be the default. Or, better, there should be no way to disable it, even.
jtsiskin 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uyghur_genocide
est31 5y ago
From a defensive perspective, I agree, but from an offensive perspective it's way easier to, say, download the contents of the 500 largest channels in the country than having to join those channels yourself.

reader_mode 5y ago

Telegram works better as a chat app for my use case which is why I prefer it. I use an iPhone for iOS development and as a backup phone, I use Android as a daily driver - WhatsApp couldn't sync history when I broke my phone twice in a year and had to switch to iPhone. And I prefer using a desktop app over mobile one, if my phone dies I can still use telegram desktop (this was useful a few times I left my phone in the car and wife drove off with it, I could keep using telegram to message her, my only other option would be messenger at that point). I don't mind privacy implications of my random chats being read by telegram.

phwak 5y ago

> Group chats are not end to end encrypted. End-to-end encrypted group chats are currently in the works. Source - https://t.me/durovschat/518625 https://t.me/durovschat/518625

winrid 5y ago
This doesn't say anything about encryption.
- phwak 5y ago
  Read again, it does. Durov mentioned they've been working on group "secret" chats. Secret is just another term for end-to-end encryption in telegram.
  - winrid 5y ago
    Ah. When I first read it, all I saw was the "self destructing". I suppose my eyes glanced over "secret"....

andrepd 5y ago

Well I don't think secure and high-quality applications like Signal fit in that spectrum :p

alanwreath 5y ago

I don’t know if it’s the Russian style or the slightly nsfw emoji it packs by default but the program feels sus. Plus, I feel like it’s only hot news recently because of the Trump-follower-exodus. Plus all the gushing in this thread seems a bit over the top. What’s special about it over WhatsApp or heck even WeChat?

nucleardog 5y ago
It Just Works(TM). Easy onboarding, doesn’t complain if you don’t let it vacuum up your entire address book, simple and usable interface, syncing is flawless, native desktop client, first party library for integrations and support of third party clients. If you’re not willing to sacrifice too much UX for privacy, it kicks the pants off of a lot alternatives while still, ostensibly, not being the worst offender privacy-wise.

allarm 5y ago

Telegram is recognized by i.e. Singapore government. They have multiple official channels in Telegram, including ministry of manpower, public housing authority and ministry of foreign affairs. The official government site has their Telegram group as well.

stereoradonc 5y ago
This is news to me. I assumed that they had presence because of outreach but this could hold true for most other governments.
truth_ 5y ago
Indian government has official channels in Telegram, too.

wiradikusuma 5y ago

I think maybe because your family and coworkers live in WhatsApp, while your dodgy friends and "random" groups are in Telegram? That's my case :)

throwaway13337 5y ago

Care to qualify that speculation with some evidence? It seems like whenever telegram is brought up here, there's a lot of speculation about it not being trustworthy but no concrete evidence. The client is open source. While not end to end encrypted by default, it shares that property with most messengers. E2E limits search-ability and other features so it's a tradeoff. I have to wonder if part of why this is mostly brought up is due to the origin of the app being a group with a Russian nationality. That's pretty sad. The app is damn good. The best messenger app I've used - much better than signal. I'm so disappointed by this attitude.

colordrops 5y ago
When it first started getting popular I was curious about whether they were trustworthy, so I chatted with the devs and they said it was 100% open source. I looked through the source and found a pre-compiled binary blob buried deep in the folder structure, and they came up with some strange excuse that I can't recall and then it disappeared after a while. Also, the evidence that it's not end to end encrypted by default for many operations is out in the open.
stereoradonc 5y ago
I( completely agree with whatever you have listed here and the reason why the app is up for bashing is because of the antecedents of the owner. How does everything which has its origins in US is touched up with fairy duust while anything that may have a remote link with Russia is garbage? Signal is garbage. They are riding on the coattails of marketing (and that's what investment money does)
- bhtru 5y ago
  Care to elaborate why you believe Signal is garbage? Is it for technical reasons?
  - stereoradonc 5y ago
    1) Platform sync is bad. 2) Backups drain my battery. 3) Notifications across platform are weird. 4) Video calling quality is now an issue. Previously it wasn't. 5) No usernames and no ingrained privacy controls to prevent users from calling me.

ranguna 5y ago

Signal is recognazied by many European governments, and WhatsApp is just a street dog that was once loved and is now hated because it misbehaved.

hansel_der 5y ago

really like your garage analogy. the missing piece seems to be the type of car. if i put down a years income for a new car, the 'authorized garage' has it's perks because the value of holesome repairs is probably greater than the cost. if on the other hand one has a ten year old, used car, which main purpose is a means of transport, that greasy, dusty garage, were the mechanic will let you know that there was only one screw missing and charges you a few bucks is golden.

risyachka 5y ago

None of the messengers except Signal give any confidence in being really private. And when comparing Telegram and Whatsapp shady-wise, only one of them has obvious many reasons to track you as much as technically and legally possible. And when it comes to app performance, UX and ease of use - Telegram beats all others with a huge margin.

temptemptemp111 5y ago

All we need now is Durov to release telegram-server so we can self host like wire-server. Yes I realize it isn't federated, but this could massively help the FOSS community on a bunch of efforts. No excuse really. They can always do whatever internally with telegram-server and we'd be none-the-wiser... Even some extra obfuscation for security ;p

stereoradonc 5y ago

Telegram accomodates over 200,000 users. I have my own community around Telegram; it has nothing to do with Crypto. Bots manage the rush; block words filter out conversations; spammers are blocked in their track, auto-delete or auto-removal of messages (if and when required). Privacy controls on voice/video calling, restrictions on who can add me to groups and so on. Intelligent cache without looming storage limits on my device. Efficient application that doesn't drain battery. Cross platform client that even works in modern browser and remains in perfect sync. I wonder why you are forgetting the virtues and only focused on the "shady aspects".