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Half of UK university students think degree is poor value for money
- Cypher 5y agonot a student and I think it's poor value
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- jeffbee 5y agoIf the median student thinks it break-even, is it perfectly priced?
- unreal6 5y agoOne would hope that most students (certainly the median one) think of it as value-generative for them, and for only the students seeing the least value as break-even (otherwise one shouldn't go to uni)
- jeffbee 5y agoIf the median student believes the net value is zero, then most students think the net value is non-negative.
- fighterpilot 5y agoNot if there's an even number of students and the two students nearest to the median have distinct value judgements.
- rvz 5y agoDepends on the degree and the university. Either way, the debt is hanging on their heads (with interest) and it is a complete scam. (Last year definitely showed just that)
- rundevilrun 5y agouk student debt isnt real debt. it functions more as a tax where the middle class pay more overall than the poor or the rich.
- betamaxthetape 5y agoIt is important to note that "debt" is perhaps a misleading term when considering student loans in the UK. The money must be repaid as a percentage of earnings (9% of everything earned above £27,295, so if you don't earn above £27,295 you don't pay anything), and after 30 years any remaining debt is wiped. In this way the "debt" is much more equivalent to a tax than a loan. Money Saving Expert have a very good guide that details this further [1]. [1] https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tuition-fees-changes/ https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/students/student-loans-tui...
- youngtaff 5y agoI don't think it's a simple as MSE makes out * debt incurs interest at rates way above what someone could get a personal loan for * it still affects people's ability to borrow when it comes to house buying etc * if your parents are rich enough to pay your fees then you don't pay the tax * if you earn enough to pay of the debt quickly they you'll pay less than someone with a middling income who earns enough to pay a lot but not clear the debt Just make a proper graduate tax instead is my view
- happyhardcore 5y ago100% agree on just making it a tax at this point. We're basically at a point where it is a tax, except: 1. The very rich can stop paying it, and 2. People who end up wanting to change degrees too late down the line end up falling through the cracks and aren't given the option to try another degree (again, unless they're very rich)
- dougSF70 5y agoImagine how this would change if they were paying $100k+ for their degree in the USA.
- fy20 5y agoThe article says some universities - taking into account living costs - are £20,000 a year, so yes a four year course would be above $100k. Given that UK salaries are so much lower than the US (the average graduate salary is £24k vs $50k in the US), I'd say UK degrees are worse value than the US.
- alistairSH 5y agoUS university can easily surpass $100k in tuition alone. My alma mater, UVA, currently estimates the total cost of attendance for in-state (subsidized by state government) at $34k/year (tuition, room-board, other expenses). For out-of-state students, that number is $68k/year. And this is a state university, not a private institution.
- _wldu 5y agoAs a counter example, you can get a MSCS degree from Georgia Tech for under 10,000 dollars (total cost). GT is a top 10 CS program. Anyone in the world may apply. I expect more of this in the near future from other top programs. Online, Cheap and Elite: https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2018/03/20/analysis-shows-georgia-techs-online-masters-computer-science https://www.insidehighered.com/digital-learning/article/2018...
- wheelinsupial 5y agoGeorgia Tech's OMSCS degree requires an undergrad degree (CS, math, comp eng, or EE preferred) for admissions. It even states "work experience will not take the place of an undergraduate degree."[1] Coursera offers one online BS in computer science with the University of London [2] costing £11,229 - £16,790 Depending upon geographic location. Edx offers microbachelors degrees, but doesn't seem to yet offer a BS in CS. Oregon State Uni offers an online BS in CS for $69,480 USD in tuition (180 credits * $386/credit). To your point, it can certainly be delivered relatively cheaply online, but there doesn't seem to be an incentive to do so. If we use GT as the benchmark, then 10k / 2 years should mean that a 4 year degree can be offered for 20k / 4 years. It seems delivering MS programs more cheaply is not the biggest barrier in US higher education. It seems a bigger impact would be to deliver the BS level education more cost effectively. [1] https://omscs.gatech.edu/program-info/admission-criteria https://omscs.gatech.edu/program-info/admission-criteria [2] https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-computer-science-london https://www.coursera.org/degrees/bachelor-of-science-compute... [3] https://ecampus.oregonstate.edu/online-degrees/undergraduate/computer-science/ https://ecampus.oregonstate.edu/online-degrees/undergraduate...
- cosmodisk 5y agoAs in most countries in Europe, the value of a university degree is diminishing because the vast majority of population has it. If back in the day,it used to be 10-20% tops, now in some countries it's as high as 60-80%, while at the same time competing for jobs that often don't require such education to start with. [Edit] I still remember how not so long time ago it wasn't uncommon to have masters as a bare minimum when hiring a secretary in my country...
- kingsuper20 5y agoPerhaps the point was never to educate, but to differentiate. Peeling off the top 10% has it's own value.
- HPsquared 5y agoThe optimal university contains only an admissions office.
- Scoundreller 5y agoAnd a big bank account for deposits. When you want to hire someone that can show off their $100k+ proof-of-burn, you probably need to pay them well. They’ve demonstrated that being paid in peanuts won’t cut it. They mean business.
- Jcowell 5y agoWho manages departmental needs for majors that require equipment (STEM) and audits the expenses? Who hires and does a Background check of these auditors and admission officials and professors?
- Pet_Ant 5y agoI have often felt this. The skills learned are of little direct value, but the qualification is signalling enough. I mean how much different for a middle management position is I got accepted to Harvard and I graduated from Harvard.
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- rozab 5y agoI wonder if this includes the Scottish students who get it for free?
- HPsquared 5y agoGiven the people paying for it don't even get a degree out of the deal, it probably depends how the question is framed.
- TylerLives 5y agoThere's still a time investment.
- donbrae 5y agoLooks like it does: “Students from Scotland are again the most positive, but there has been a statistically significant (6%) fall this year.”[1] However fees are only paid by the government if a Scottish student (including those from elsewhere the EU, at least before Brexit) studies in Scotland; not if they study elsewhere in the UK. [1] https://www.advance-he.ac.uk/knowledge-hub/student-academic-experience-survey-report-2020 https://www.advance-he.ac.uk/knowledge-hub/student-academic-...
- dpwm 5y agoScottish students still have to pay sometimes very high accommodation fees, and this is usually done through a loan. Example: I studied in Edinburgh from 2008–2012, but was from Wales. I had to pay around £1800 per year tuition fees, but accommodation at its cheapest worked out at £300 per month, without taking into account costs like light and heat. I have a student loan of about £30k, of which about £9k was tuition fees. Free tuition would have saved me between a quarter and a third of the cost of going to university. Now fees are greater than £9k per year, which many believe is absurd. Based on my example, assuming no inflation on living costs, I would have borrowings of £84k without even taking into account interest – all of which I would almost certainly never repay.
- happyhardcore 5y ago£300 a month for a student flat isn't really all that different to the rest of the UK - I lived in student accommodation in Manchester for four years and paid between £350 and £420 a month plus bills for houses in varying states of decay, with bills maybe being an extra £100 on top of that.
- dkdbejwi383 5y agoMy degree has nothing to do with my career. I value the experience and learned a lot, but don't think it was good value for money.
- hughrr 5y agoMine was terrible value for money. Went to a red brick in the UK and studied electrical engineering in the early 90s. My first job on the market was a start from scratch experience. I learned almost nothing of value at university and my personal experience as a hobbyist was far more useful. Turns out 95% of EE work is gluing bits of data sheets together and scratching head over problems where the idealistic mathematical models don’t work out. I found this depressing and ended up slipping out the side into the IT industry which was full of charlatans which were easy to get an advantage over. My only saving grace was it was free at the time. If I’d had a (larger) pile of debt placed in front of me I’d have done something else with my life.
- _wldu 5y agoThis is my experience too. The best EE I know dropped out of university but knows more about it than anyone I have met. He builds radios, phones and antennas from parts as has since he was a kid in the 1950s. I think the same applies to CS. The best ones have been writing games and code since they were kids. It's something that they love to do.
- imtringued 5y agoI'm confused. As someone who dabbled with a basic PCB design. There are a lot of simple circuits that require a lot of theoretical knowledge. Designing the circuit is one thing as you can always copy paste existing designs and modify them. Picking and rating components is another as it requires a complete understanding how your circuit actually works and I was hoping that an EE degree would have helped with that. I guess there is no need for that and I should just "grind" practical circuits until I understand them. This is surprising to me because the nature of imperfect components makes EE far more complicated than software development where you do not have to care about choosing a for loop manufactured by Samsung vs Panasonic that is good up to 1000 iterations or that it is polarized so your for loop can only increment, not decrement. Add a hundred components each with their own characteristics and your head will split.
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- paulpauper 5y agoIn the UK this would not be so surprising. the college wage premium is probably a lot lower there than in the US and wages lower overall . fewer of those good tech , legal, consulting , finance, or ngo jobs or they don't pay as much compared to the US.
- ghiculescu 5y agoMy sister is going to university in Australia. Despite a successful covid eradication and effectively no cases in her state, her uni tried to make them go virtual all of this year (as well as last year). And what can she do about it? If the professors don’t feel like coming to work she’s shit out of luck. No wonder she and her friends feel like it’s a bad deal.
- anonymousDan 5y ago"If the professors don't feel like coming to work" - As if we have much of a say in it! I would love to be back in the classroom. Online teaching is exhausting but we are forced to do it because of COVID regulations. I think blaming academics for the situation is completely unfair and disingenuous.
- TX0098812 5y ago1. More and more people are getting degrees, making them less of a differentiator. 2. Knowledge is more and more readily available and is not limited to degree holders. 3. Politics is infecting universities with propaganda. 4. Universities are coming up with useless degrees in order to attract students. 5. Universities focus too much on degrees and grades and not enough on knowledge.
- bencollier49 5y agoA very good summary. I think it's important to factor in the comment from someone else around here that distinguishes between a degree and a university education. I think there's a market for a three-year back-to-basics course where you are doing rigorous self-study and small-group tutorials intensively for the whole time. Possibly Oxford and Cambridge still do that to some extent? Certainly it addresses all five of your points, including the one about propaganda (too much free time).
- owlbite 5y agoI'd add: 6. Universities are focused on delivering what students (think they) want, not on delivering a good education. I've seen pretty blatant cheating pushed under the rug as it was more effort to pursue it than the course leader could be bothered with (after all these were paying customers).
- plank_time 5y agoI thought UK university education was extremely cheap or free. I shudder to imagine what they would think about paying hundreds of thousands for a US education...
- quantumofalpha 5y agoYou probably confused it with continental europe - there education in public universities in many countries still is extremely cheap or free. UK on other hand is like light version of US.
- ElViajero 5y ago> Nearly half of all students thought their degree offered poor value for money this year according to a survey that sheds light on the scale of student anger with their universities’ response to the pandemic Emphasis mine on "this year". > Twice as many students thought their courses offered poor value (44%) than in 2019-20 So it used to be better in non-pandemic years. Seems that some people is jumping to conclusions about education in the UK when the article is specifically about presidential/non-presidential and other pandemic challenges.
- micdr0p 5y agopresidential? but yeah i totally get they feel they're not getting their money's worth with zoom classes..
- ElViajero 5y ago> presidential? Upsy-daisy. It sounds cooler, thou.
- xf1cf 5y agoI ended up taking the pandemic off from my graduate classes. I am funding out of pocket (a local university so about $6,000 per year on a dev salary). I was given the option to get a GA-ship but at 11k a year I figured as long as the night classes don't go away I'd rather work. I did this because they were upcharging for cleaning, upcharging for "tele-classes", and importantly STILL charging me for property on campus I was barred from using (University, Gym, etc). Worse yet the remaining courses at the beginning of the pandemic were terrible. Once the "cleaning policies" came into effect students were elected from each class, each day to clean the room before and after the class. So effectively we were paying them for the privilege of cleaning desks/boards/markers/etc for free. Something that takes up to 20m in the auditoriums. Absolutely disgraceful of universities to do these things.
- TillE 5y agoIt's embarrassing how many of the comments here are quite obviously based entirely on reading the headline and nothing else. I read the article when I saw it in The Guardian yesterday, it is of course entirely about changes during the pandemic, not a general conversation about higher education.
- JackPoach 5y agoI really object to thinking about education as 'value for money' only. That's not to say that education in some countries is outrageously expensive (it is) or that student loans are terrible burden (it is). But the real issue is that modern education is increasingly shoddy, regardless to how much you pay for it. Still, I think it's important to have formal education, because most young people aren't self-organized enough to learn on their own. Also, universities are important social institutions (yeah, sounds ironic in 2021) where social skills and connections obtained can dramatically influence your life decades after the education is finished.
- ergot_vacation 5y agoAs long as it costs money, it's about value for money. If you're willing to give it to me for free, great, then we can kick back and speculate on how it improves me as a person (consider, however, there are MANY things in this world that improve people, and a lot of them don't cost tens of thousands of dollars at the low end.) Until then, it's about value for money.
- caseysoftware 5y agoI bet it's even worse in the US. For a decade+, people have framed "the college experience" as the reason you should attend instead of getting skills online or on your own. Then they promote their great facilities, beautiful campus, state of the art labs, etc. When THAT is your main value prop and then suddenly take it away, what do you expect will happen?
- BlameKaneda 5y agoAbout 9 years ago I attended a college Q&A session, and I was the only one in the group who was currently at a community college (the rest were HS juniors and seniors). The community college route was brought up (with my name specifically), and although the presenter brought up the benefits of a 2-year school none of the other students and parents were having it. They were certain that "the college experience" was the only way forward. I was able to graduate from the CC and transfer to a public 4-year school as a junior. The tuition was minimal (compared to a private university) and paid off without hassle, and if I'd gone the "traditional" college route I don't think I would've been as lucky.
- kowlo 5y agoI'm sure that around half of UK university lecturers, admins, and senior management also believe the degree is poor value for money. UK universities mostly exist to print money at the moment... For many students, university is a 3-4 year government funded (student "loan") binge.
- pydry 5y agoGovernment funded? Maybe in 1996.
- kowlo 5y agoI'm talking about what we refer to as "Student Loans" https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/student-loans-company https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/student-loans-co... "We are a non-profit making government-owned organisation that administers loans and grants to students in colleges and universities in the UK." In many cases, it's never paid back in full, and the students don't ever need to worry about it. From the perspective of many students, it's free money.
- pydry 5y agoThe deal is it's never paid back provided you stay poor (< £20k) for your whole life. Quite a high cost for a few years of drinking. It's a sweet deal for employers to create a natural disincentive for people to ask for raises though, while keeping the outward appearance of fairness.
- Okx 5y agoIt's only a disincentive to ask for a raise if you don't know what it means. You only pay back student loans based on the percentage of money you earn above a certain amount. If you earn £21,000 and the threshold is £20,000, you only pay back a portion of £1,000, not all of the £21,000.
- pydry 5y ago
- airhead969 5y agoWhat does "think" mean? A belief? Did each one sit-down and estimate future earnings with, without, and the opportunity costs of time and money?
- TheMerovingian 5y agoI have a community college diploma and a university degree. I can say that the 3 years I spend in community college learning to code; learning systems, design patterns, various languages, etc... it has served me far better than the knowledge I earned at university. Community college is a second class citizen and it's hard to convince people of its merits to society.
- _wldu 5y agoIt's also the most affordable way to start a 4 year degree program. Many US states have guaranteed community college transfer programs into large, well-regarded state universities for engineering, business, etc.
- analog31 5y agoI'm strongly of the opinion that reforms to higher education should start with strengthening the community college and public tech school systems, and push their best practices upward. The CC in my region, and the regional state colleges, are jewels. Everybody at the CC is committed to teaching. They are committed to getting people in and keeping them in, not just to meet some metric, but actually working with each student one on one. And the teachers at our CC are unionized, so there's actually a fair amount of competition for the jobs that open up. The national news media should declare a two year moratorium on reporting about the "elite" colleges, and spend that time investigating the community and regional college systems.
- baldanders 5y agoJust finished my last semester at a CC and I'm transferring to a UC this Fall. I think that CCs will never really be able to shake off their stigma because of the fact that they are an entry point for EVERYONE. Telling someone you go to a CC could mean anything from "I'm a lazy fuck up" to "I'm a bright student who wants to avoid student loans". I feel like a lot of CC students just grit their teeth and accept that they may be looked down upon until they transfer and "prove themselves" so to speak. There's really no getting around this without changing the very nature of CCs' inclusiveness.
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- globular-toast 5y agoI'm not surprised. After I graduated from uni with a computer science degree it took me 7 years just to get to zero, by which time I was a top 30% earner. Now I'm a top 10% earner and I still won't have paid off my loan for another 3 years. I can't imagine what it's like for someone with a pointless degree earning a more average salary. It's basically just a higher tax because you spend a few years messing around between school and getting your first job.
- christkv 5y agoSpain is full of people with masters working in super markets or other unskilled labour. It a society that took the education is prosperity to the natural conclusion meaning everyone is highly educated and underemployed, trying to pass the bureaucracy exams to get some dead end job in the public service or unemployed and living with their parents. We need to teach people self-reliance, critical thought, economic literacy and common business sense and support entrepreneurship at the most basic level financially and educationally. Invest in providing professional education (electrician, plumber, mechanics etc.) and provide an aggressive intern plan like what Germany does for their small and medium businesses.
- 908B64B197 5y agoWhy is the economy so bad?
- christkv 5y agoStructural problems which never gets addressed properly. We stand at 15%+ unemployment as of today. Tourism is a big industry causing massive swings as its seasonal. There is a big underground economy that is I remember being in the 20-25% range of GDP.
- 908B64B197 5y ago> There is a big underground economy that is I remember being in the 20-25% range of GDP. Too much bureaucracy?
- culopatin 5y agoDegrees should be like elementary school. Not something “that you need for a job” but something “our society needs to be better and make better things”. Another tool that we can use to build a better and smarter future.
- s_dev 5y agoAgreed -- education is about the knowledge transfer from one generation to the next not externalizing the cost of job training to universities.
- dragonwriter 5y ago> Degrees should be like elementary school. Not something “that you need for a job” but something “our society needs to be better and make better things”. Its implicit in the ideology of capitalism that the former is equivalent to the latter.
- Moodles 5y agoIt's somewhat interesting, but "what students think" isn't really as interesting as the reality of whether a degree is poor value for money or not. It might be, or might not. I suspect it largely depends on the degree and the institution. Also, just because having a degree is pretty normal right now, doesn't mean it's not good value: maybe you need it just to do averagely and without it you'll struggle a lot in the employment market. I'm not saying this is true, I'm just saying the headline isn't that interesting compared to the actual reality.
- acomjean 5y agoThats actually a great point. There are studies indicating what college degreed people earn vs non degreed. In my experience (as someone who graduated decades ago), the degree, particularly for liberal arts majors, opened a lot of doors for opportunities that might not have happened without them. But I went to a state school for a cost that seemed high in the 90's but now seems like a huge bargain. Here's Northeasterns stats on degree what degree earns what (maybe a university isn't the most unbiased resource but..): https://www.northeastern.edu/bachelors-completion/news/average-salary-by-education-level/ https://www.northeastern.edu/bachelors-completion/news/avera... This studies does neglect the huge debt that students accrued because college is crazy expensive now.
- wheelinsupial 5y ago> maybe a university isn't the most unbiased resource but.. I'm not sure if anything similar in the US exists, but Stats Canada puts out data on employment by majors in Canada. [1] shows that graduates of the humanities and social sciences have the highest rate of underemployment whereas graduates of nursing, engineering, CS, and education programs have the lowest rate of underemployment. [2] performs a comparison of workers from 1991 to 2011 and concludes that underemployment rates (called overqualification here) have not changed much. Field of study is broken out for the 2011 group, however, the 1991 data isn't broken out. [3] Breaks out salary for graduates of Canadian majors (118 fields of study for men, 123 fields of study for women) 5 years after graduation prior to the COVID-19 pandemic. Unfortunately, it does not break this down by university, and it seems to lump computer science in with math. Surveys completed in BC [4] show that for self-reported earnings there is a difference in earnings for the same major across different universities. It also treats math and computer science separately and in some cases, CS majors earn 2x math majors two years after graduating. [1] https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98-200-x/2016025/98-200-x2016025-eng.cfm https://www12.statcan.gc.ca/census-recensement/2016/as-sa/98... [2] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-006-x/2014001/article/11916-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/75-006-x/2014001/article... [3] https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2020018-eng.htm https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/11-626-x/11-626-x2020018... [4] https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/data/statistics/people-population-community/education-training/bc-student-outcomes/publications/baccalaureate-graduates-survey https://www2.gov.bc.ca/gov/content/data/statistics/people-po...
- dijit 5y agoA university degree in the UK isn't even a measure of aptitude, it's a measure of patience or ability to slog through shit. My sister is about as bright as a black hole and managed to get a masters degree in Law. My friends wife is also as dense as a collapsed star and was on-track to get a PhD, until she dropped out. These are not measures of intelligence, knowledge or aptitude, just ability to recite in rote and vomit the words of a book or professor back at the institution, and it puts you in debt to do it. As an employer a degree tells me nearly nothing. And yes; some jobs require a degree, but the people that filter through are thick as shit so it's not a measure of anything. Just an institutionalised cost of entry. (and I will be downvoted, by people defensive of their degree/debt, likely due to a sunk cost fallacy, but I have a degree and I'm thick as shit too so I'm speaking for myself also)
- HPsquared 5y agoThat may be so, but those very same abilities are exactly what is needed for success in most jobs.
- owlbite 5y agoIn my experience it very much depends on the institution. I did my undergrad at one of the Oxbridge colleges, and it was very clear you could fail if you either weren't clever enough or didn't put in sufficient effort. If you turned up without having completed the work they just sent you straight back home with a black mark that counted against you when you failed the exams and wanted another go. Exam questions basically only awarded 33% of the marks for "bookwork" and the rest required you to demonstrate an actual mastery of the topic. My grad school was at a Russel group school (the tier just below Oxbridge), and it was clear that the undergrads there could just coast as long as they handed something in. If they turned up to a tutorial without having done the homework there were very few consequences. If you failed the exams there was an automatic retest in the summer. If you could regurgitate your text book you would probably get a 2:1.
- markus_zhang 5y agoI think university degree is sort of "Does nothing unless it's a really good school but you lose a LOT by not having one" thing. Similar things include your outlook, you inheritance, etc.
- boringg 5y agoQuestion - is this students who are paying for it now and at school now or is this students who look back ten years afterwards? Tough to see current value from a lifelong investment. Not for or against - just commenting on the bias of the lens of which it is viewed.
- ErrantX 5y agoIMO not surprising. A large part of the value of a degree is, I believe; * fleeing the "nest" and exploring your adult persona in a fresh environment * Socialising and building social capital * Networking Naturally, few of these things are possible in a pandemic.
- tarkin2 5y agoIt’s gone from £0 £1000 £3000 £9000 in my lifetime. The education hasn’t improved. Nor has the job prospects. Outside about three outstanding universities, and a few with good specialties, the rest are average at best.
- maxehmookau 5y agoI think that’s a reasonable view. It’s tripled in cost and no way has a degree tripled in value. You can’t create a market for something and provide no additional value.
- ArkanExplorer 5y agoOne of the overlooked factors of Tertiary Education is housing costs, and taxes. Ok, I make 30% more with my degree, but all of that is swallowed up by increased rent/mortgage costs (since White collar jobs are usually restricted to a few expensive cities), and progressively higher taxes.