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This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and

This problem will never get fixed. The author forgot to mention in depth the main reason why EU isn't even in the game: culture. In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. A lot of third world countries are years ahead of the whole EU continent in that aspect. I say this because I live in Europe for the quality of life, come from a third world country, and I see how kids and adults are spoiled here. Much of what they have was just given to them. At least for the strong countries in west EU, lifestyle is very relaxed and any ambitious is frowned upon, it is extremely demotivating, not to mention bureaucracy. Corporations and regulations will just drive your small company out of the market no matter what. I find for me more likely to save some money, move to my country and create my own business and sell in Europe. People here are too lazy to compete in the fast world we live in, there in my country there is so many skilled people, so little capital, here is the reverse. Good amount of capital and foreigners working in tech. For instance, I live in Berlin and almost all the "working people" from tech companies here are foreigners. Germans are generally the executives and/or management. It is quite rare to find a german software developer on Startups. I personally think(my opinion, not the ultimate truth)... that Europe is definitely a very interesting market for companies to come here and sell their stuff, but not to make it. Instead I think Europe should focus on its strengths, which is healthy market regulations, creating a good playing field for companies from above, rather on its weaknesses. It should also figure out a way to keep part of the profits inside the continent to benefits its inhabitants. More important than competing is to know where and when to compete.

wdb 5y ago
Could be that their scarcity of software developers in Germany that requires foreign work or alternatively foreigners ask a lower salary
- csunbird 5y ago
  The question needs to be asked here is: Why there is a shortage of developers in Germany, while people having access to free education? One reason is that I can be paid three times more in the US, and with the extra disposable income, I can live a better life, even without the legal protections. Second reason is that, why should the kids even bother studying computer science for 4-6 years to earn 3k per month? A plumber here can charge 100 per hour and does not require any formal educational training.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    A plumber needs formal education, at least in Germany. Three years of it, to be exact. And then some more to run his own shop. Also, 100 an hour sounds great. That is without taken taxes, social security, operational costs, fix costs an so into account. Those plumbers getting wealthy are running their own shops, small legit enterprises. Final note: Any decent developer job I know of pays at least 3k, net, after taxes, social and medical insurance,... Enough to live a comfortable live. One without student debt, I might add.
    - odiroot 5y ago
      > operational costs, fix costs an so into account. These are tax deductible.
    - mnouquet 5y ago
      > A plumber needs formal education, at least in Germany. Three years of it, to be exact. And then some more to run his own shop. Here's Europe's problem. The same way you don't need 5+ years university education to put together whatever piece of hardware / software together, the same way I don't need studying hydraulic to put together hydraulic implements.
      - kazen44 5y ago
        mind you the german education system is very different from the US/English one. Germany (and many other european countries) has the idea of a trade school, in which one learns a trade. Usually these are combined with working experience in the form of apprenticeships. In my experience, continental europe has far more emphasis on early work experience compared to ango-saxon countries. An internship usually lasts a couple of years, people get payed a wage for the work they do and it is combined with schooling. A plumber would be a prime example of the vocation which is using this kind of system. people finish secondary education at an earlier age then in the US (16 or even 15 in some cases), then they transfer into tertiary education in a fachschule.
        5y ago
Jiejeing 5y ago
> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. There needs to be a source for this.
- selfhoster11 5y ago
  Necessity is the mother of invention. But that doesn't need that the must humane way up induce invention is to purposefully create the necessity in the first place.
bildung 5y ago
> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. And yet Silicon Valley lies in one of the states with the most employee friendly regulation in the US wrt worker protection, paid overtime etc.: https://s3.amazonaws.com/oxfam-us/www/static/media/files/Best_States_to_Work_Index.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/oxfam-us/www/static/media/files/Bes...
- gerash 5y ago
  SV has a momentum due to a number of factors. One of the ways they have been able to maintain the momentum has been the fact that CA allows employees freely move to a competitor and work there. This keeps the companies competing.
- zeruch 5y ago
  Yes, but how you interpret "employee friendly" matters. Case in point, California is an "at will" employer, which depending on how you want to leverage it, can be seen as employee friendly or employer friendly.
  - kazen44 5y ago
    from a social democratic perspective, it just means your employer has eroted your rights of a stable living and extracted even more value from you through pressure.
_pmf_ 5y ago
> I see how kids and adults are spoiled here Where do you live in Europe, and what do you mean exactly?
- wreath 5y ago
  He already said where he lives in the comment.
samsquire 5y ago
Wow that's a lot to unpack... But I'll just leave this here. > I see how kids and adults are spoiled here I think what you're seeing is how people are meant to be treated. Maybe the German software developers don't want to work for a startup sweat shop?
selfhoster11 5y ago
> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capable of. "Flexible working laws" and "less relaxing lifestyle" to me translates as "light a fire under their ass until they are forced to innovate", while "big growth mindset" and "ambitious people" translate as "hustle culture", which I consider toxic in its very nature. As a European, I can only hope that our culture doesn't degrade itself to that degree.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  GP's phrasing is wrong but there is a point there - it is much easier to achieve success and then regulate and distribute its benefits than to go the other way round. I am not a fan of unbridled capitalism a la the USA and fully agree that more countries should strive to reach European levels of worker and civil rights... however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe and many of their older firms have struggled to innovate as technology has spread across the globe. There is a good reason why a fast moving industry like tech has taken root in the US while Europe as a whole is playing catch up. The US will solve its problems, i have full faith in that country's ability to rise to the challenge as they have done numerous times in the past. Europe's problems with tech innovation run deep and go beyond simply vacation days and worker rights. Look no further than the current spree of tech regulation. I wish more countries did that but there is a fundamental problem - the EU is trying to legislate without having a good alternative. My prediction - If the US resolves its immigration system and allows more talent to flow in without having to worry about a visa, European skilled immigration is toast.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - thiago_fm 5y ago
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
wreath 5y ago
I have a similar perspective mostly (we live in the same city and both are foreigners so we are seeing from a similar lense,fwiw). What i disagree with is that people here are not ambitious. I think its more like the regulation and laws and red tape in general that makes starting a business a non attractive endeavor compared to being an employee considering all the benefits employees get in most of EU. In the US, i would imagine the difference in terms of risk of quitting your job to start a business is not as wide as in EU.
ElViajero 5y ago
>In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. False. Sweden is in the top 10 competitive nations in the world. And it is because it has a relaxing lifestyle, support for children and parents, etc. If desperate people was more innovative or productive, the list of successful USA entrepreneurs would not be filled with upper-class or rich businessman. Easy of mind, education and time creates opportunity. Desperation only leads to bad decisions. Late years Sweden in going down because it is moving towards more neo-liberal policies, thou.
- mediascreen 5y ago
  I think it is very hard to say if it is because if or in spite of its policies that Sweden has been somewhat successful. And I would say that going from the world's highest tax rates (% of GDP) to the world's fourth highest rate does not make Sweden neo-liberal. We have also had a Social Democrat prime minister since 2014 and a government that relies on support from the former Communist party, so we are not quite a neo-liberal utopia yet.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jiofih 5y ago
You just broadly painted all of Europe as lazy. Maybe you should reconsider your attitude? > Corporations and regulations will just drive your small company out of the market no matter what Has this happened to you? Plenty of small business where I stand, and this lifestyle fits them perfectly, there is no desperation to survive. Not every business has to be about growth. I think what you’re seeing is the result of policies that increase quality of life. So Germany has to import someone like you, from a third world country, that will accept the pay and have “ambition”. It goes both ways.
jiofih 5y ago
In addition, people now tend to equal consumer services in tech to “innovation”, but if you look closely a disproportionate amount of the real innovation in energy, industry, food production, finance and “real word tech” happens in Europe - because a lot of people have the freedom to do things that matter with their lives and not spend their time being a growth hacker.
- dgb23 5y ago
  I assumed that it was the other way around. Can you point me to further reading?
  - pfortuny 5y ago
    Philips, siemens, bosch, just three.
    - kazen44 5y ago
      also, many small companies which are world market leader in a very tiny and specific thing. For instance, there is a company in germany which is able to produce very high quality lead sheeting to a unusual size, which allowed mythbusters to create a lead balloon. No company in the US was able to achieve this thickness.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70kbIzPgig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70kbIzPgig
Zababa 5y ago
> At least for the strong countries in west EU, lifestyle is very relaxed and any ambitious is frowned upon, it is extremely demotivating, not to mention bureaucracy. Corporations and regulations will just drive your small company out of the market no matter what. My brother works long hours for a company that recently raised 20 millions, all of that in France. Europe is composed of many people, and many of them have a big growth mindset and ambitions. Ambition is not frowned upon, at least not in my circles. Bureaucracy is surprisingly easy to deal with. The other thing is that people from Europe already know that if they want to work hard and earn lots of money, they can just go to the USA. But things are changing and now people build things in Europe. I think you have a very reductive vision of European people. I'll also add that "Europe" doesn't have a culture as a whole. I'm French, I'm surprised by how Italians do things, same with Germans. We are composed of different countries with rich histories and culture. Grouping everything as "European" is the same as saying "African", it hides most of the reality and complexity of the world.
mmarq 5y ago
Software development and other tech jobs were low-status professions in Europe (the UK being a partial exception) up until a few years ago. Once a friend told me some thing like "it is not fair that you make more money than I do, I have a degree in literature and, with all due respect, you are just a guy that works with computers". This was not an absurd conversation to hear anywhere in continental Europe in the early 2000s. For a brilliant 20 year old German in 2005 becoming a primary school teacher or a pencil pusher in a random government office would have been a better option than working in tech. With "better option" I mean double salary, double pension, better healthcare, more holidays. So it shouldn't surprise anybody if foreigners are overrepresented in tech jobs in Germany, and it has nothing to do with European lazyness (had you said risk-aversion I could have agreed).
- opportune 5y ago
  This is something I’ve noticed working with European people and also traveling. I think there is a cycle here where because working with software is considered low status, many good software people leave, and lots of smart people probably do not go into the field at all unless they truly love software. This would tend to drive the talent pool down, IMO, which keeps away good software jobs, keeping it low status. In the US for example writing software is usually considered wholly different from “IT” whereas in Europe IT encompasses both. That’s probably another thing bringing its status down. You are grouping software engineers with people plugging in printers and solving Karen’s support ticket (no offense IT people).
  - kazen44 5y ago
    > In the US for example writing software is usually considered wholly different from “IT” whereas in Europe IT encompasses both. That’s probably another thing bringing its status down. You are grouping software engineers with people plugging in printers and solving Karen’s support ticket (no offense IT people). oh boy, if you think IT is just pluggin in printers and fixing easy support tickets you are easily mistaken. What about network and system engineers? Those who keep the cloud and global internet running? Those are considered IT (atleast in europe) and are definitely not low quality, easy to learn jobs.
kelvin0 5y ago
I spoke with many French who moved to Canada (there are many in the last decade or so). And 99% mention that North American culture is much less rigid than French culture and there are much more opportunities over here. They mention it's very hard to change careers in their country with a more 'hierarchical' and rigid culture and mobility is limited. Totally different when they move and appreciate the mobility, freedom and opportunities.
opportune 5y ago
I have met many ambitious European people in the US. Europe has ambitious people, they just don’t make it easy for them to do their thing; it’s better for ambitious people to just go to the US than to take on the monumental task of changing the culture in Europe or to swim upstream and try to start a business anyway.
odiroot 5y ago
> It is quite rare to find a [G]erman software developer on Startups. Because they probably already left for Switzerland or North American, where they can get paid much better salaries.
jollybean 5y ago
Developing countries are ahead of Europe and even the US in some very, very narrow things. In some places mobile and online banking penetration. But to lift up the nation, you need regulations, competence at all levels. 'Google' is a tiny project relative to America. Most countries are 99% about the basic things: roads, bridges, hospitals, carpenters, governance, food etc.. There are enough groups of ambitious people to form networks of that. In Paris and London people move, it's the same in most countries.
tester756 5y ago
you know what makes people work hard harder than ""culture""? poverty >a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. all I see is `""hackers"" sitting 10h a day working while believing they're saving world`
fy20 5y ago
> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. This doesn't really make sense to me. The EU is a clear leader in other industries compared to the US, just not in the tech industry. In terms of national security and stability, I'd say any of these companies are much more important than any tech company. If the market here for innovation is so bad, why are these companies leaders in their industry? A few examples I can think of off the top of my head: - automotive (Volkswagen, Daimler, Bosch) - industrial equipment (Siemens, ABB) - railroad (Siemens, Alstom) - telecoms (Ericson, Nokia) - chemicals (BSAF, Ineos) - food and drink (anything from France, Italy or Spain :D)
oscargrouch 5y ago
When i see this kind of discussion here and in HN i think it mostly miss the primary point.. You would be more to the point if we were talking about the industrial era which can automate even the experience into machinery. But things like software are heavily based on knowledge retention. Knowledge retention is about attracting talent, and make sure they evolve their knowledge and keep that knowledge there. So you need a good quality of life, career and financial possibilities, good universities, a good culture with individual freedoms. Its all about the "human gold". And the countries that will retain this sort of talents are cannot be optimized to also be industrial powerhouses, because the balances are different. Anyway remote labor will change things a lot also, and we will see how things will turn out. But work and quality of life balance will become really important, and industrial sweat shops wont be as attractive in my opinion. I hope that talent get more spread out instead of concentrated as is now, giving we are going more remote.. Anyway, i guess a lot of parts of EU will become more palatable as the physical place where you are at become less important. I predict that small towns in Italy, Portugal or France with mostly old people will get more trendy giving the houses will be more affordable and people will be able to create their kids in a more healthy environment. Pandemic will change faster the assumptions we had about how we should live our lives, and i think loneliness will hurt us more as the value of money compared to what is lost by pursuing it will become less appealing. The industrial era wisdom will get reviewed and some things wont make any sense anymore. (For instance, packing too many people in gigantic towns, lowering the quality of life, country life will get more trendy with time in my opinion, people living in small communities of 20 families in rural areas)
HellDunkel 5y ago
I am born EU and work here and would not want to leave. But you are corrct in the sense that there is little respect for software developers and the hard work they have to cope with.
maigret 5y ago
You should move to south Germany - people are very much ambitious there, work is often their main goal. Also, burnout numbers and other mental health statistics are really up, and that for years before COVID. Many people are working a lot just to buy a house. Far from everyone has inherited, actually Germany started a lot from scratch after the war. Most wealthy people I know built their wealth with lots of work, including weekends. Many colleagues work in the evening. It’s true few build a company though. But many decide to travel the world, or get ambitious with sports, art or charities. There’s a lot of things to be accomplished especially when you experienced first hand that the parents career didn’t make them much happy and satisfied in life.

wdb 5y ago

Could be that their scarcity of software developers in Germany that requires foreign work or alternatively foreigners ask a lower salary

csunbird 5y ago
The question needs to be asked here is: Why there is a shortage of developers in Germany, while people having access to free education? One reason is that I can be paid three times more in the US, and with the extra disposable income, I can live a better life, even without the legal protections. Second reason is that, why should the kids even bother studying computer science for 4-6 years to earn 3k per month? A plumber here can charge 100 per hour and does not require any formal educational training.
- hef19898 5y ago
  A plumber needs formal education, at least in Germany. Three years of it, to be exact. And then some more to run his own shop. Also, 100 an hour sounds great. That is without taken taxes, social security, operational costs, fix costs an so into account. Those plumbers getting wealthy are running their own shops, small legit enterprises. Final note: Any decent developer job I know of pays at least 3k, net, after taxes, social and medical insurance,... Enough to live a comfortable live. One without student debt, I might add.
  - odiroot 5y ago
    > operational costs, fix costs an so into account. These are tax deductible.
  - mnouquet 5y ago
    > A plumber needs formal education, at least in Germany. Three years of it, to be exact. And then some more to run his own shop. Here's Europe's problem. The same way you don't need 5+ years university education to put together whatever piece of hardware / software together, the same way I don't need studying hydraulic to put together hydraulic implements.
    - kazen44 5y ago
      mind you the german education system is very different from the US/English one. Germany (and many other european countries) has the idea of a trade school, in which one learns a trade. Usually these are combined with working experience in the form of apprenticeships. In my experience, continental europe has far more emphasis on early work experience compared to ango-saxon countries. An internship usually lasts a couple of years, people get payed a wage for the work they do and it is combined with schooling. A plumber would be a prime example of the vocation which is using this kind of system. people finish secondary education at an earlier age then in the US (16 or even 15 in some cases), then they transfer into tertiary education in a fachschule.
      - 5y ago

Jiejeing 5y ago

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. There needs to be a source for this.

selfhoster11 5y ago
Necessity is the mother of invention. But that doesn't need that the must humane way up induce invention is to purposefully create the necessity in the first place.

bildung 5y ago

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. And yet Silicon Valley lies in one of the states with the most employee friendly regulation in the US wrt worker protection, paid overtime etc.: https://s3.amazonaws.com/oxfam-us/www/static/media/files/Best_States_to_Work_Index.pdf https://s3.amazonaws.com/oxfam-us/www/static/media/files/Bes...

gerash 5y ago
SV has a momentum due to a number of factors. One of the ways they have been able to maintain the momentum has been the fact that CA allows employees freely move to a competitor and work there. This keeps the companies competing.
zeruch 5y ago
Yes, but how you interpret "employee friendly" matters. Case in point, California is an "at will" employer, which depending on how you want to leverage it, can be seen as employee friendly or employer friendly.
- kazen44 5y ago
  from a social democratic perspective, it just means your employer has eroted your rights of a stable living and extracted even more value from you through pressure.

_pmf_ 5y ago

> I see how kids and adults are spoiled here Where do you live in Europe, and what do you mean exactly?

wreath 5y ago
He already said where he lives in the comment.

samsquire 5y ago

Wow that's a lot to unpack... But I'll just leave this here. > I see how kids and adults are spoiled here I think what you're seeing is how people are meant to be treated. Maybe the German software developers don't want to work for a startup sweat shop?

selfhoster11 5y ago

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. The US has those things and it's turning into a "third world country with a Gucci belt" (as someone put it) for everyone except the 1% and the indispensable knowledge worker class that can't be automated away or juiced dry for all the productivity they are capable of. "Flexible working laws" and "less relaxing lifestyle" to me translates as "light a fire under their ass until they are forced to innovate", while "big growth mindset" and "ambitious people" translate as "hustle culture", which I consider toxic in its very nature. As a European, I can only hope that our culture doesn't degrade itself to that degree.

eldaisfish 5y ago
GP's phrasing is wrong but there is a point there - it is much easier to achieve success and then regulate and distribute its benefits than to go the other way round. I am not a fan of unbridled capitalism a la the USA and fully agree that more countries should strive to reach European levels of worker and civil rights... however, there is validity to the statement that Europe is currently coasting along on the spoils of centuries of loot and plunder. A lavish, comfortable lifestyle was handed to the citizens of western europe and many of their older firms have struggled to innovate as technology has spread across the globe. There is a good reason why a fast moving industry like tech has taken root in the US while Europe as a whole is playing catch up. The US will solve its problems, i have full faith in that country's ability to rise to the challenge as they have done numerous times in the past. Europe's problems with tech innovation run deep and go beyond simply vacation days and worker rights. Look no further than the current spree of tech regulation. I wish more countries did that but there is a fundamental problem - the EU is trying to legislate without having a good alternative. My prediction - If the US resolves its immigration system and allows more talent to flow in without having to worry about a visa, European skilled immigration is toast.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- thiago_fm 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

wreath 5y ago

I have a similar perspective mostly (we live in the same city and both are foreigners so we are seeing from a similar lense,fwiw). What i disagree with is that people here are not ambitious. I think its more like the regulation and laws and red tape in general that makes starting a business a non attractive endeavor compared to being an employee considering all the benefits employees get in most of EU. In the US, i would imagine the difference in terms of risk of quitting your job to start a business is not as wide as in EU.

ElViajero 5y ago

>In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. False. Sweden is in the top 10 competitive nations in the world. And it is because it has a relaxing lifestyle, support for children and parents, etc. If desperate people was more innovative or productive, the list of successful USA entrepreneurs would not be filled with upper-class or rich businessman. Easy of mind, education and time creates opportunity. Desperation only leads to bad decisions. Late years Sweden in going down because it is moving towards more neo-liberal policies, thou.

mediascreen 5y ago
I think it is very hard to say if it is because if or in spite of its policies that Sweden has been somewhat successful. And I would say that going from the world's highest tax rates (% of GDP) to the world's fourth highest rate does not make Sweden neo-liberal. We have also had a Social Democrat prime minister since 2014 and a government that relies on support from the former Communist party, so we are not quite a neo-liberal utopia yet.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

jiofih 5y ago

You just broadly painted all of Europe as lazy. Maybe you should reconsider your attitude? > Corporations and regulations will just drive your small company out of the market no matter what Has this happened to you? Plenty of small business where I stand, and this lifestyle fits them perfectly, there is no desperation to survive. Not every business has to be about growth. I think what you’re seeing is the result of policies that increase quality of life. So Germany has to import someone like you, from a third world country, that will accept the pay and have “ambition”. It goes both ways.

jiofih 5y ago

In addition, people now tend to equal consumer services in tech to “innovation”, but if you look closely a disproportionate amount of the real innovation in energy, industry, food production, finance and “real word tech” happens in Europe - because a lot of people have the freedom to do things that matter with their lives and not spend their time being a growth hacker.

dgb23 5y ago
I assumed that it was the other way around. Can you point me to further reading?
- pfortuny 5y ago
  Philips, siemens, bosch, just three.
  - kazen44 5y ago
    also, many small companies which are world market leader in a very tiny and specific thing. For instance, there is a company in germany which is able to produce very high quality lead sheeting to a unusual size, which allowed mythbusters to create a lead balloon. No company in the US was able to achieve this thickness.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70kbIzPgig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h70kbIzPgig

Zababa 5y ago

> At least for the strong countries in west EU, lifestyle is very relaxed and any ambitious is frowned upon, it is extremely demotivating, not to mention bureaucracy. Corporations and regulations will just drive your small company out of the market no matter what. My brother works long hours for a company that recently raised 20 millions, all of that in France. Europe is composed of many people, and many of them have a big growth mindset and ambitions. Ambition is not frowned upon, at least not in my circles. Bureaucracy is surprisingly easy to deal with. The other thing is that people from Europe already know that if they want to work hard and earn lots of money, they can just go to the USA. But things are changing and now people build things in Europe. I think you have a very reductive vision of European people. I'll also add that "Europe" doesn't have a culture as a whole. I'm French, I'm surprised by how Italians do things, same with Germans. We are composed of different countries with rich histories and culture. Grouping everything as "European" is the same as saying "African", it hides most of the reality and complexity of the world.

mmarq 5y ago

Software development and other tech jobs were low-status professions in Europe (the UK being a partial exception) up until a few years ago. Once a friend told me some thing like "it is not fair that you make more money than I do, I have a degree in literature and, with all due respect, you are just a guy that works with computers". This was not an absurd conversation to hear anywhere in continental Europe in the early 2000s. For a brilliant 20 year old German in 2005 becoming a primary school teacher or a pencil pusher in a random government office would have been a better option than working in tech. With "better option" I mean double salary, double pension, better healthcare, more holidays. So it shouldn't surprise anybody if foreigners are overrepresented in tech jobs in Germany, and it has nothing to do with European lazyness (had you said risk-aversion I could have agreed).

opportune 5y ago
This is something I’ve noticed working with European people and also traveling. I think there is a cycle here where because working with software is considered low status, many good software people leave, and lots of smart people probably do not go into the field at all unless they truly love software. This would tend to drive the talent pool down, IMO, which keeps away good software jobs, keeping it low status. In the US for example writing software is usually considered wholly different from “IT” whereas in Europe IT encompasses both. That’s probably another thing bringing its status down. You are grouping software engineers with people plugging in printers and solving Karen’s support ticket (no offense IT people).
- kazen44 5y ago
  > In the US for example writing software is usually considered wholly different from “IT” whereas in Europe IT encompasses both. That’s probably another thing bringing its status down. You are grouping software engineers with people plugging in printers and solving Karen’s support ticket (no offense IT people). oh boy, if you think IT is just pluggin in printers and fixing easy support tickets you are easily mistaken. What about network and system engineers? Those who keep the cloud and global internet running? Those are considered IT (atleast in europe) and are definitely not low quality, easy to learn jobs.

kelvin0 5y ago

I spoke with many French who moved to Canada (there are many in the last decade or so). And 99% mention that North American culture is much less rigid than French culture and there are much more opportunities over here. They mention it's very hard to change careers in their country with a more 'hierarchical' and rigid culture and mobility is limited. Totally different when they move and appreciate the mobility, freedom and opportunities.

opportune 5y ago

I have met many ambitious European people in the US. Europe has ambitious people, they just don’t make it easy for them to do their thing; it’s better for ambitious people to just go to the US than to take on the monumental task of changing the culture in Europe or to swim upstream and try to start a business anyway.

odiroot 5y ago

> It is quite rare to find a [G]erman software developer on Startups. Because they probably already left for Switzerland or North American, where they can get paid much better salaries.

jollybean 5y ago

Developing countries are ahead of Europe and even the US in some very, very narrow things. In some places mobile and online banking penetration. But to lift up the nation, you need regulations, competence at all levels. 'Google' is a tiny project relative to America. Most countries are 99% about the basic things: roads, bridges, hospitals, carpenters, governance, food etc.. There are enough groups of ambitious people to form networks of that. In Paris and London people move, it's the same in most countries.

tester756 5y ago

you know what makes people work hard harder than ""culture""? poverty >a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. all I see is `""hackers"" sitting 10h a day working while believing they're saving world`

fy20 5y ago

> In order to be innovative and compete, we need very flexible working laws, people with a big growth mindset, a less relaxing lifestyle and AMBITIOUS people. This doesn't really make sense to me. The EU is a clear leader in other industries compared to the US, just not in the tech industry. In terms of national security and stability, I'd say any of these companies are much more important than any tech company. If the market here for innovation is so bad, why are these companies leaders in their industry? A few examples I can think of off the top of my head: - automotive (Volkswagen, Daimler, Bosch) - industrial equipment (Siemens, ABB) - railroad (Siemens, Alstom) - telecoms (Ericson, Nokia) - chemicals (BSAF, Ineos) - food and drink (anything from France, Italy or Spain :D)

oscargrouch 5y ago

When i see this kind of discussion here and in HN i think it mostly miss the primary point.. You would be more to the point if we were talking about the industrial era which can automate even the experience into machinery. But things like software are heavily based on knowledge retention. Knowledge retention is about attracting talent, and make sure they evolve their knowledge and keep that knowledge there. So you need a good quality of life, career and financial possibilities, good universities, a good culture with individual freedoms. Its all about the "human gold". And the countries that will retain this sort of talents are cannot be optimized to also be industrial powerhouses, because the balances are different. Anyway remote labor will change things a lot also, and we will see how things will turn out. But work and quality of life balance will become really important, and industrial sweat shops wont be as attractive in my opinion. I hope that talent get more spread out instead of concentrated as is now, giving we are going more remote.. Anyway, i guess a lot of parts of EU will become more palatable as the physical place where you are at become less important. I predict that small towns in Italy, Portugal or France with mostly old people will get more trendy giving the houses will be more affordable and people will be able to create their kids in a more healthy environment. Pandemic will change faster the assumptions we had about how we should live our lives, and i think loneliness will hurt us more as the value of money compared to what is lost by pursuing it will become less appealing. The industrial era wisdom will get reviewed and some things wont make any sense anymore. (For instance, packing too many people in gigantic towns, lowering the quality of life, country life will get more trendy with time in my opinion, people living in small communities of 20 families in rural areas)

HellDunkel 5y ago

I am born EU and work here and would not want to leave. But you are corrct in the sense that there is little respect for software developers and the hard work they have to cope with.

maigret 5y ago

You should move to south Germany - people are very much ambitious there, work is often their main goal. Also, burnout numbers and other mental health statistics are really up, and that for years before COVID. Many people are working a lot just to buy a house. Far from everyone has inherited, actually Germany started a lot from scratch after the war. Most wealthy people I know built their wealth with lots of work, including weekends. Many colleagues work in the evening. It’s true few build a company though. But many decide to travel the world, or get ambitious with sports, art or charities. There’s a lot of things to be accomplished especially when you experienced first hand that the parents career didn’t make them much happy and satisfied in life.