31 ms·

Heart inflammation cases in young men higher than expected after mRNA vaccines

466 points by smaili 5y ago

DennisP 5y ago
It'd be nice if they mentioned how many cases there were, compared to number of shots.
- mario_lopez 5y ago
  Agreed. Context matters here. I'd hate for this to get blown out of proportion like the blood clot issue did, causing massive confidence declines in places all over, especially those struggling to roll out vaccines and keep their COVID cases under control. Obviously, if the numbers are alarming, we must react accordingly.
  - dfsegoat 5y ago
    They are alarming based on the measure of Observed vs. Expected cases. Observed (O) cases in that age group: 283 Expected (E) cases in that age group: 10-102 So at least double the top of the confidence interval, for expected.
    - shawabawa3 5y ago
      but that's out of 13m doses, so ~200 out of 13m. I'm not sure how that compares to the expected harm from catching covid but I imagine the vaccine still ends up massively favourable
      - swader999 5y ago
        Have to really consider if the 200 are but a fraction of the actual though. I mean how many are going to be reported?
        fwip 5y ago
        I'd wager it's approximately the same fraction of myocarditis cases that are reported in the unvaccinated group. There may even be a bias toward over-reporting myocarditis in the wake of a vaccine, as people are primed to look for side effects.
      - dfsegoat 5y ago
        Per the article. The age group of concern "accounted for less than 9% of doses administered." Also, underreporting is a factor - not everyone knows about VAERS, not everyone goes to the Dr. for chest pain etc. I agree it's favorable, but it's important to understand the effects of any medicine on subgroups of a treatment population.
      - nwellnhof 5y ago
        This depends a lot on the probability of contracting Covid at all. Roughly speaking, if there's a 1% chance to contract the disease, the vaccine has to be at least 100 times safer. As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem.
        heisenbit 5y ago
        > As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem. This is a big assumption. It could also be that it becomes part of the virus background infections we all deal with except that it is high risk if you get it the first time. When looking that the risk of an non vaccinated individual catching Covid today keep in mind that a lot of people have been vaccinated and the incidence numbers de-facto refer to incidences of the non vaccinated part of the population which would justify a smaller denominator than used (whole population).
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        Without vaccines the risk of catching covid is of around 70% at least.
        HPsquared 5y ago
        Is that for an individual not taking the vaccine but benefiting from herd immunity of others, or a person in a while society without vaccines?
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        For society in general. That said, there is no guarantee that herd immunity will ever be reached at least in the US. If herd immunity isn't reached then it's basically guaranteed you'll get it eventually as the disease becomes a "background disease".
    - fwip 5y ago
      Right, but you've got to look at the absolute rate, which in this case is 283 out of 12 million, which is roughly 24 people per million. You can look at the risk of what it's preventing (covid has already killed ~1700 people per million in the US), or compare to other activities and risk levels. Relative risk comparisons between different activities are often not useful. For example, the risk of shark-death at the beach might look alarming when compared to my risk of shark-death-at-home, but actually it's vanishingly unlikely.
      - makomk 5y ago
        The trouble is that the people apparently at risk from this are not the people at risk from Covid-19. The risk to people between the ages of 12 and 24 from Covid is really, really small. Especially towards the lower end of that age range, most countries seem to be seeing low single-digit per million deaths: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00066-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4...
        jlokier 5y ago
        The risk of death from Covid-19 is low in that age range. But what about the risk of heart inflammation from Covid-19 in that age group, possibly with no other Covid symptoms?
        robbiep 5y ago
        That’s the right question to ask
        fwip 5y ago
        There's also the relatively high chance that you'll pass the infection on to another person, who may not be nearly as healthy/resilient as you.
  - journey_16162 5y ago
    I would like to see it uncovered. I did not sign up for heart inflammation and any potential future problems that may come out from it.
- meibo 5y ago
  They do, in this exact article. 283 cases were noted in the VAERS database, there are about 130 million fully vaccinated people in the US. I assume they don't track healthy people in the database of adverse vaccination reactions.
  - DennisP 5y ago
    So they do. I'm pretty sure they added that after I read it.
- handrous 5y ago
  The whole article could use a lot more context, which has been typical of COVID reporting. For one thing: is heart inflammation a rare side-effect for vaccines and/or immune responses generally? If not, to what degree (if any) does this exceed rates we see for other vaccines? That should be second-paragraph-of-article sorts of information.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - sdenton4 5y ago
    Exactly this. I'm curious how much we're seeing effects that are present but just haven't been measured previously, because of the size of the newly-vaccinated population. The second dose is obviously very stressful on the body - people are often down for a couple days dealing with the reaction - so it seems unsurprising that there's /some/ kind of measurable secondary effect. Stress is known to correlate with heart attack.
- sbierwagen 5y ago
  They link to the CDC slide deck. Slide 14: https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download 488 total reports from Pfizer-BioNTech, 301 reports from Moderna. Slide 18 shows proportions. 12,169,692 doses administered. Expected number (base rate) of Myocarditis/pericarditis cases in persons under 25, 10 to 103. Cases observed: 277. So it roughly quadrupled the base rate. Which brings the adverse reaction rate up to... 0.000276%
  - amluto 5y ago
    This only requires that a person with myocarditis be 3-4x as likely to notice it after a COVID vaccine than without a COVID vaccine. That seems consistent with a real effect but also consistent with no vaccine effect at all.
  - Fomite 5y ago
    The debate between presenting absolute vs. relative rates is a really interesting one in epidemiology, for the record, with roots spanning everything from "absolute risk regression models are actually kind of tricky" to the early arguments about smoking and lung cancer, casual criteria, and R.A. Fisher being on the wrong side of history.
- dfsegoat 5y ago
  It's a postmarketing surveillance system [1]. Not a controlled trial, so the true exposure vs. reported cases isn't known for these data from VAERS. > "There were 283 observed cases of heart inflammation after the second vaccine dose in those aged 16 to 24 in the VAERS data. That compares with expectations of 10-to-102 cases for that age range based on U.S. population background incidence rates, the CDC said." They use Observed vs. Expected cases in order to calculate e.g. a reporting odds ratio [2], which can loosely guide you in finding events which occur disproportionately. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmarketing_surveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmarketing_surveillance 2. https://allaboutpharmacovigilance.org/43-reporting-odds-ratio-ror/ https://allaboutpharmacovigilance.org/43-reporting-odds-rati...
thatswrong0 5y ago
Anecdote: I had this reaction to the 2nd dose of the Pfizer vaccine, saw a cardiologist and she mentioned that she’s been seeing this quite a bit after the second dose. Have had to lay low for a month, but it seems like the symptoms are finally passing.
- popotamonga 5y ago
  What kind of symptoms makes one go to a cardiologist? Just curious
  - mannykannot 5y ago
    Arrhythmias are perhaps the most specific indicators that you should see a cardiologist, but chest pain and/or shortage of breath on mild exercise could well be caused by a heart problem. These are some of the symptoms of myocarditis, among other things.
  - thatswrong0 5y ago
    I went to the doctor because of general shortness of breath all the time, heart rate spiking during normal activity like standing up, palpitations out the wazoo, and general fatigue.
  - atom_arranger 5y ago
    I'm 27 and experienced a lot of chest pains and skipped heartbeats earlier this year. One night I stood up quickly, walked a bit then lost consciousness (low blood pressure), hit my head on the way down. I had an ambulance to the ER after that, they didn't find anything wrong during that visit. I was referred to a cardiologist, had a holter monitor, ECG, and stress test. None of those turned up any issue. Going by what I've read about this online I suspect I may have had myocarditis from a case of COVID, but I think that would only show up on an MRI, not the tests I got. Luckily the palpitations and chest pain have mostly gone away over the past couple months. In relation to speculation about COVID and myocarditis cases elsewhere on this page: I doubt my case will be reported because the association between COVID and heart problems didn't seem to be on the radar of any of the doctors I saw.
- 5y ago
xml123 5y ago
Can the government present anything in a useful manner? The most important information, i.e. if the young men engaged in heavy sports right after getting the vaccine, is missing. Heavy sports is obviously also dangerous while recovering from the flu. But the disorganized chaotic government presentation doesn't give any useful information.
- searine 5y ago
  That is a hypothesis but there isn't enough data yet to prove that is the definitive truth. We know it's rare, its above the expected mean, but could still be just statistical noise. It would be irresponsible to report that as the headline because this is still a developing topic. What's important is that the FDA was watching it closely enough to detect the effect, and are following up on it. Good job FDA. That's the kind of thing I want my taxes spent on.
- macinjosh 5y ago
  Be careful criticizing government on HN it will be buried in down votes by the fanatics for whatever party is currently in power.
  - dang 5y ago
    Please don't break the site guidelines like this. Comments like this are tedious and the perceptions are notoriously in the eye of the beholder. (No, we don't care if people criticize the government. We care about comment quality and ensuing discussion quality.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- jimmyswimmy 5y ago
  Your question isn't really well-posed. It's more about scientific communications than about government communications, and scientists are notoriously poor at communicating nuanced technical information to the general public. And the general public is notoriously poor at appreciating nuance. Really, if this were intended for public consumption, they would avoid abbreviations like "AEs" and instead spell out "Adverse Events" or maybe be much more specific. I doubt most people even on here know what "pyrexia" is, I had to look it up to be sure. Anyway, more to your point, the data presented is collected from VAERS. I've spent some time reading these exact data lately to try to understand the risk/reward for vaccinating children. The system is intentionally, I think, focused on a free-text data input, along with a huge grab bag of drop-down-box symptoms. In any event, there's no obvious way to ensure people report other activities. If you read some of the VAERS reports you might appreciate my point better. They range from professional reports clearly written by a medical professional, to personal discussions, and in this age group have a lot of reports written by parents. In none of the hundreds I read did a person describe participation in heavy sports. By that omission we can conclude nothing whatsoever regarding the relationship between heavy sports and vaccination. The powerpoint from FDA that I read actually gave a lot of useful information. It was a much better summary of the VAERS data than I was able to glean by manually reading through the reports. Myocarditis <edit: no!> and syncope seemed to me to be the most frequent side effect of vaccination at least in this age group, and the powerpoint seems to align with my impression. EDIT: Syncope seemed to me to be the most frequent based on eyeballing the reports. I actually didn't notice myocarditis at all when I first looked through VAERS reports, not sure why I wrote that originally.
_Microft 5y ago
The interesting table with absolute numbers is on page 18 of [0]. Expected and observed cases are cases of myocarditis / pericarditis here. Crude rate is the number of cases per 1 million administered doses. Use landscape mode if you are reading this from a mobile device, the table is narrow enough for that. Age group Doses Crude Expected Observed administ. rate cases cases 12–15 yrs 134,041 22.4 0–1 2 16–17 yrs 2,258,932 35.0 2–19 79 18–24 yrs 9,776,719 20.6 8–83 196 [0] (PDF) https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download
- delecti 5y ago
  Crude rate seems to be observed cases per million doses administered. So a lot more incidents than expected, but still extremely rare (0.002% of doses). Edit: missed an extra "0" in that percent, thanks for the the catch everyone who did
  - _Microft 5y ago
    Thanks! It also says that in the footnote. I added it to the comment.
  - thebean11 5y ago
    But it's only been a few months since administration, will the gap between expected and actual keep growing, or will they eventually level out?
    - delecti 5y ago
      Considering it mentions this is showing up within 1 week of administration, and there are already millions of "doses administered" accounted for in the figures, I wouldn't expect the rate to change significantly either way. I'm not a statistician though.
    - drknownuffin 5y ago
      Post-viral myocarditis / pericarditis usually occurs in the days to weeks (up to about a month, generally) following a viral infection.
lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
Any information on the rate of myocarditis after vaccination vs myocarditis after infection?
sudoaza 5y ago
Maybe has to do with testing it on healthy people who doesn't represent general population?
- Jolter 5y ago
  It’s just too rare to pop up in the studies, even if n=30000
antattack 5y ago
I think that many people who did not have heart issues before don't know what to look for or how it feels. Personally, I did not know I had palpitations until I googled it later. Similarly, I suspect, that some kids/young adults may have had symptoms but don't report.
- habibur 5y ago
  That can be covered by double blind tests.
- majormajor 5y ago
  This would be reflected in the "expected rate" data that we compare against, though, right? Many people who naturally have an episode wouldn't ever see a doctor...
Kognito 5y ago
Very interesting given one of the lesser known complications of covid can be myocarditis in otherwise healthy individuals with few or no other covid symptoms. In fact, it’s likely the incidence of covid-induced myocarditis is vastly underreported given it often shows no symptoms and can only reasonably be diagnosed with a cardiac MRI which is not always widely available or advised for less-serious heart conditions. I was diagnosed with myocarditis last year and despite a negative PCR test around the onset of symptoms (light-headedness, heart palpitations, fatigue) was strongly suspected to have contracted covid. I was lucky enough to get my first dose of the moderna vaccine a few months back and beside a few days of increased heart palpitations I’ve had no trouble as far as I’m aware, does make me wonder about getting that second dose though.
- hollerith 5y ago
  The vaccine and the virus both expose the body to large amounts of the spike protein.
- newsclues 5y ago
  The spike protein causes cellular damage, doesn’t matter if it comes from the vaccine or virus
  - lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
    Yes, but the route in which a vaccination takes place (IM injection into deltoid) should mean that much much less of the spike protein ends up in the heart and lungs vs a natural infection. As well, the overall amount of spike protein in the body will be less. https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/spike-protein-behavior https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/sp... “Consider what happens when you’re infected by the actual coronavirus. We know now that the huge majority of such infections are spread by inhalation of virus-laden droplets from other infected people, so the route of administration is via the nose and/or lungs, and the cells lining your airway are thus the first ones to get infected. The viral infection process leads at the end to lysis of the the host cell and subsequent dumping of a load of new viral particles – and these get dumped into the cellular neighborhood and into the bloodstream. They then have a clear shot at the endothelial cells lining the airway vasculature, which are the very focus of these two new papers. Compare this, though, to what happens in vaccination. The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. That’s why a muscle like the deltoid is preferred, because it’s a good target of thicker muscle tissue without any easily hit veins or arteries at the site of injection. The big surface vein in that region is the cephalic vein, and it’s down along where the deltoid and pectoral muscles meet, not high up in the shoulder. In earlier animal model studies of mRNA vaccines, such administration was clearly preferred over a straight i.v. injection; the effects were much stronger. So the muscle cells around the injection are hit by the vaccine (whether mRNA-containing lipid nanoparticles or adenovirus vectors) while a good portion of the remaining dose is in the intercellular fluid and thus drains through the lymphatic system, not the bloodstream. That’s what you want, since the lymph nodes are a major site of immune response. The draining lymph nodes for the deltoid are going to be the deltoid/pectoral ones where those two muscles meet, and the larger axillary lymph nodes down in the armpit on that side.”
redis_mlc 5y ago
Women ofte report heart problems as nausea, differently than men, who report it as pain. So this side effect may be under-reported or misdiagnosed in women, so not male-only.
- AnimalMuppet 5y ago
  Hmm. A "hidden" or "silent" heart attack often shows up as fatigue. This could be far more prevalent than data indicates. Note that I'm not saying that it is more prevalent. So far as I know, there is no data to support my suspicion. And, personally, I suspect that if some of that is heart trouble, it's the minority of cases of Covid (and Covid vaccine) fatigue. But I note that the possibility exists that this could be prevalent.
beefman 5y ago
This is based on VAERS data. I encourage the curious to look at this data. I did. I would characterize its quality as so poor that probably no conclusions at all can be drawn from it. And I usually find myself defending the use of noisy and/or small data in similar situations.
- ezekg 5y ago
  I've heard less than 1% of adverse reactions are actually reported to VAERS.
  - Kognito 5y ago
    Yeah, how many people actually bother to report their symptoms if they’re not serious enough to warrant a trip to the doctor (who might report on their behalf)? Mild myo can go undetected quite easily. In fact, it’s known well as being a cause of death in young athletes who only learn of the condition when their heart gives out during intense physical exertion.
    - notjes 5y ago
      I am curious: Who reports that dude that died of a heart attack laying in a ditch somewhere.
    - dahfizz 5y ago
      Anecdotally, my girlfriend got the moderna vaccine and got pretty bad skin rashes from it. She went to report it through a link her provider sent her, but the website would not allow her to report any side effects because it had been longer than 48 hours since her shot.
  - larrywright 5y ago
    I’ve heard this too, from anti-vaxxers mostly. VAERS is the medical equivalent of Yelp. Anyone can post anything there and looking at the unverified data is not a reliable indication of anything. And, anti-vaxxers have been known to go report things in order to bolster their arguments.
yk 5y ago
Slightly off topic, but it is quite interesting that US media very consistently uses "Pfizer" if the news is good and some variant of "Pfizer/Biontec" if the news is bad. The opposite holds of course for the German press, which addresses the vaccine as "Biontec" when the news is good.
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  My skept-o-meter is twitching. I'd have to see actual numbers backing that up, as it looks much more like confirmation bias to me.
- bonzini 5y ago
  Somebody even made a copypasta about it in Italian. My translation is the following: "I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Pfizer vaccine, is in fact, the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, BioNTech plus Pfizer vaccine. Pfizer did not develop the vaccine by itself, but rather another company called BioNTech created the original formula, which went through Pfizer's clinical trials and became the vaccine we use these days. Many people who got the vaccine refer to it as the Pfizer vaccine, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine which is widely used today is often called "Pfizer", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the vaccine initially developed by BioNTech. There really is a Pfizer contribute to the vaccine, and these people should partly thank that corporation, but it is just a part of what allowed them to be vaccinated. Pfizer is the distributor and responsible for clinical trials. Clinical trials are an essential part of a vaccine, but useless by itself; they can only be done once somebody developed the vaccine in the first place. So, the Pfizer vaccine can only be used because it was developed in the first place by BioNTech: the whole system is basically BioNTech with Pfizer contributions, or BioNTech/Pfizer. The so-called Pfizer vaccine should really be called BioNTech/Pfizer!"
  - dependsontheq 5y ago
    Watching the various vaccines fail in production or in clinical trials gives an interesting perspective on what an amazing and lucky combination BioNTech/Pfizer are. So I think we should be grateful for both companies, amazing scientists and amazing engineers.
splithalf 5y ago
We’ve known this for a month or so. The bottom line is that experts still recommend getting the vaccine.
- breadzeppelin__ 5y ago
  meanwhile the many experts who don't recommend it are widely and very vocally shunned as 'science deniers'. Andddd downvoted. Cant even point out that there are actual experts on both sides of the argument without people being upset about it.
  - seattle_spring 5y ago
    Given everything we know about the virus and the vaccines, that seems like an appropriate label. > Andddd downvoted. Cant even point out that there are actual experts on both sides of the argument without people being upset about it I doubt anyone who downvoted you is "upset."
  - tomtheelder 5y ago
    There will be experts, that is people with relevant credentials, on both sides of every issue, but that doesn't mean they always ought to be listened to. They are being heavily criticized here because the science _overwhelmingly_ supports vaccination.
    - Growling_owl 5y ago
      > science _overwhelmingly_ supports vaccination Not to be pedantic about it, but science always, and in any event supports non vaccination for self and everybody else vaccinating instead. This is true for every disease. If possible it's always smart not to inject yourself with stuff. They just can't say it because then everybody would try and be the last person to get the shot, because the last one gets to skip the shot!
      - mustacheemperor 5y ago
        >This is true for every disease. If possible it's always smart not to inject yourself with stuff. Maybe in a vacuum where everyone else around you is guaranteed to get the shot, but based on what I saw from friends and family who contracted COVID, what I've read about its long term effects, and the ongoing uptake of the vaccine I would not say the science inclines me to take my chances without immunity.
splithalf 5y ago
Hope they controlled for vaping.
Giorgi 5y ago
Damn it, I already have heart problems and still in queue for mRNA thinking it was safer than AstraZeneca clots risk. Guess not. Crap.
- majormajor 5y ago
  The article mentions some hospitalizations but not any deaths, so it still definitely seems safer.
- Klonoar 5y ago
  FWIW, I also have a heart condition, and experienced no issues. Obviously I can't give you medical advice, but figure it's worth noting that it's not a guaranteed experience. ;P
- Daegalus 5y ago
  I am 31 and have high BP and had both shots, first shot was.just arm and side pain. second shot was.just fatigue, but I didn't notice any heart issues. maybe my bp meds help, since they bind to ACE receptors but not sure.
peanut_worm 5y ago
Did anyone else get really bad side effects? I felt awful after my first shot and now I an currently recovering from my second shot and feel even worse. I don’t think I have ever felt this bad from an illness.
- Izkata 5y ago
  It's a thing: https://old.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/
- JPKab 5y ago
  There is a relatively high rate (fully acknowledged) of high fever from the MRNA vaccines, particularly after the second dose. Compared to standard vaccines of the past, the rate of fever and illness is dramatically higher. But COVID is so dangerous and contagious that the benefit is higher than the cost. I say this as somebody (if you look at some of my previous comments) who lost my Mother-in-law due to a rare side-effect that is still being researched after her second shot.
  - ostenning 5y ago
    It’s alarming that I keep hearing about people who have lost people from a vaccine. It’s now at a higher rate than the virus itself. I’m awaiting Pfizer but I’m quite concerned. Which vaccine did she take?
    - JPKab 5y ago
      I want to emphasize that these events are rare, although probably not as rare as you we think, and that I recommend to people to get vaccinated. That being said, I don't know a single person personally (I live in Colorado, with lots of family and friends in Virginia,NC, and DC) that has died or been hospitalized for COVID, and I happen to know 2 people who suffered cardiac arrest from the Pfizer vaccine, with one (my MIL) dead. The other person is a prominent technologist and former Googler, and he suffered several heart attacks in the hospital after his cardiac arrest. Both were in the midst of a post 2nd shot fever a few hours later when the incidents happened. It should be noted that my experience is anecdotal, and if I lived in NYC, I would certainly know several people hospitalized/dead of COVID. COVID is a very scary virus in the sense that it can cause us to let our guard down. Why? Because of viral load. If you are exposed to a single person with it, your illness will probably not be severe, but if you and dozens of others get on a subway car, sick with covid, a person getting that fat viral load is far more in danger. My primary issue with the way my MIL and my friend were handled with their vaccine induced cardiac arrests was the way the doctors initially (for roughly a week with both, in separate hospital in separate states) gaslit the families and wouldn't even discuss the vaccine being AT ALL RELATED. It was blatantly obvious to us that they were following PR playbooks either forced on them from their employers and/or medical licensing boards. The utter and obvious lack of any form of curiosity was the biggest tell. We can't talk about what happened on social media, at all. It gets deleted and flagged as "misinformation" and "encouraging vaccine hesitancy". The private censorship regime is clumsy, and run/moderated by people who don't seem to understand nuance or respect the intelligence of the public. The result of this? My wife's sister and her husband, who until the incident were NPR listening liberals who were excessive in their obedience to public health authorities, are now listening to fucking Alex Jones. They weren't able to vent their anger and grief or get any information from the normal spaces, and have lost ALL trust of public health authorities. It's horrible to watch, and I"m doing my best to try to keep them grounded as they grieve. They were all in the room when the cardiac arrest happened, and it was very traumatic for them. The denials and gaslighting of the medical staff compounded the issue. (At one point, a doctor insisted my MIL had choked. When told they weren't eating, he insisted that she must have snuck off to get food and sat back down while chewing. Imagine what it was like to hear that idiocy for them) For those of you clamoring for censhorship, ask yourself if my in-laws now becoming Alex Jones listeners was a positive effect of this regime we encouraged to form after Trump's election?
UncleOxidant 5y ago
Seems like maybe we should be recommending the J&J vaccine for men under about 35 and the mRNA vaccines for women in that age group.
Aaronstotle 5y ago
After reading various comments here, I think I might have experienced this after my first dose (Moderna). Noticed some slight chest pain the day after during my ride and my heart rate was about 10bpm higher than normal. Never had any noticeable symptoms after, please take this with a grain of salt because I do cycle a lot (~2-400 miles a month) and I'm not representative of the general population.
JPKab 5y ago
My mother-in-law died 9 days ago, after being on life-support for 2 weeks. All following a sudden onset cardiac arrest 3 hours after getting her second Pfizer shot. She had a fever from the shot, was sitting in the living room watching a movie with family, and her heart suddenly stopped. She was healthy and in her early 60's. The medical team, after a week, concluded it was likely vaccine induced, and reported it to VAERS. A neighbor of mine, who is 35 year old male, had an almost exactly similar event. Because he was younger, he survived. His medical team also reported to VAERS, and the Mayo clinic is researching it. The vaccine is generally safe, and you should get it if you aren't immune to COVID. That being said, the effort to prevent vaccine hesitancy has suppressed media reporting on these events, understandably. They are likely more common than we think, but still relatively rare. MRNA is going to be a revolutionary technology, but we should be honest about the fact that there are going to be some individuals who will experience some extremely nasty side-effects.
- myfavoritedog 5y ago
  Yep. I know of at least five stroke or adverse heart events in my social circle or one hop out, all had been vaccinated recently. Like you, I maintain that it’s still a lesser risk than COVID... but there seems to be a lot of media/political pushback to just acknowledging the possibility of vaccine problems.
  - JPKab 5y ago
    There is also social pushback. I've had a few longtime friends who got angry with me for not remaining completely silent about this. They insist that it's just a coincidence, and since THEY got the shot and are OK, it must be safe, and I'm a horrible person for "spreading fear". They aren't my friends anymore. I don't have room in my life for people who can't understand nuance or recognize their own cognitive dissonance.
- throwkeep 5y ago
  > That being said, the effort to prevent vaccine hesitancy has suppressed media reporting on these events, understandably. This works with toddlers, but not with adults. Suppressing information ultimately leads to less trust, more hesitancy and more conspiracy theories (they were hiding X, what else are they hiding?). It'd be better if they would just be be transparent and upfront from the start.
jb775 5y ago
The crazy thing about this is even if 75% of people who got the vaccine dropped dead tomorrow, the other 25% would still be convinced it had absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine.
Flatcircle 5y ago
May wife got severe joint pain like arthritis across both arms and in other parts of her body after the Pfizer vax. She's getting several tests done and has been doing physical therapy. It was several months ago and it doesn't seem to be getting better. Her PT said she's been seeing lots of these. She never had covid. I hope she gets better, it's been really difficult.
- dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago
  Have her get blood work for various inflammation and fatigue markers like TSH/FT4/FT3, CBCs, Iron, TIBC, Serum Ferritin, VitD, IL-6, (etc) for a sanity check. Some of it can simply be stress/anxiety which - if not managed - accumulates as whatever condition emotionally feels like it is "not resolving" and produces similar symptoms. If everything checks out, stuff like Omega3s, VitD, Glucosamine, Chondroitin and a good 3-4 week vacation to unwind are all greatly associated with reducing chronic inflammation. I think the challenge we're all facing is Dr's are so overwhelmed with all these "inflammatory"-type conditions where some stuff can slip under the radar but they're all inclined to blame it on anxiety/depression. COVID has been a sneaky fucker wrt asymptomatic infections. The best thing you can do is take as many stressors off the plate and give it 6-9 months. Better 6-9 months off than a lifetime of wading thru chronic issues.
- Offpics 5y ago
  8 months ago I developed severe pain, burning and stiffness in hands. Then it went to the legs and finnaly to the whole body. It got to a point where I was bedridden and couldnt eat on my own. All of my energy was put into seeing doctors and doing labs tests wich all turned out negative. I was doing PT and pain killers but they were innefective. Finally, I got a meeting with a rheumatologist that said its fibromyalgia. There are no lab tests to prove fibro diagnosis so Im still not sure about this and I suspect it may be a covid sideffect. Luckily fluoxetin helped me to be back in life, overtime it modify brain to reduce the threshold pain in a soft tissue. Covid damages nerve cells in the soft tissue (thats why people lose smell or even has body pains) so the dots are connecting. I hope your wife will get better, I know how hard it is for a whole family. Normally Im a lurker but who knows, maybe this reply will help with your situation.
- 5y ago
drummer 5y ago
One has to be absolutely stupid to get poisoned with this crap to 'protect' against what is essentially a flu.
notjes 5y ago
So if booster shots are required, will we go through this ordeal like every 12 month until what?
arriu 5y ago
Has anyone looked at whether the mental stress or anxiety induced by putting someone through the process of getting the shot could be maybe be a reason for triggering this? Not the vaccine itself, but the whole routine of line up, answer questions about allergies and other risk factors, then waiting to get the shot, then having to sit there waiting for symptoms to show up... Not to mention people don't like needles either. I can imagine the heart rate during this ordeal is way higher than normal and could trigger inflammation. Not saying that the science here is invalid, just actually curious to know how this gets ruled out.
- arriu 5y ago
  What's up with the down votes... It is a legitimate question. People get heart inflammation from things like court visits. If you know something then please share.
  - version_five 5y ago
    I didn't vote on your post, but I did read it earlier and found it a bit silly. "White coat" syndrome- getting nervous going to the doctor or for medical things, is definitely real. I have it too. I always have a hard time getting my blood pressure checked because I get so involuntarily aggravated by the whole thing. And there are definitely people afraid of needles. But (nearly) everyone has various vaccinations during life, and it feels implausible that you've identified some special new condition people are getting (that in this case was already expected and is just higher) that is specific to these vaccine based on stress instead of the known rare response of the body.
    - arriu 5y ago
      I don't think it's enough to say people get vaccinated and we didn't see this in the past. This is quite different. Many people are afraid of this vaccine more than others in the past. I've had countless arguments with family trying to convince them it's okay. Their arguments are A) it's mRNA, which is new... And B) they argue it was rushed. I can't help but think about how someone with that mental state would feel while in the waiting room.
chronolitus 5y ago
I definitely had this: got the first shot and felt confident, cocksure that I would have no symptoms at all being healthy and young. Woke up during the night ~8 hours after the first shot feeling a little out of breath, with strong and almost painful heartbeats. I chalked it up to being stressed, but found it strange as I had zero reasons to be stressed that particular week. I connected the dots the next day when I still had this feeling, and talked to a doctor in the family who said it was probably heart inflammation, and actually not that uncommon after the vaccine or covid infection. I'm still glad I got vaccinated, but given that heart disease is the #1 cause of death worldwide, I'm surprised the ramifications of heart inflammation aren't taken more seriously (if the heart was permanently damaged in a small way, I'd expect it to manifest many years later).
- ev0lv 5y ago
  >>I'd expect it to manifest many years later You're spot on. Long term risks take many years to evaluate.
licnep 5y ago
Pretty sure i had this after my second dose of moderna. On the day of my second dose I had a very unique piercing heart pain i never experienced before, thought i was gonna die. Had some arrhythmia/palpitations as well, but didn't go to the doctor or report it, I'm sure many more people experienced this without reporting it, just hope it doesn't cause permanent damage. (31, male)
tchvil 5y ago
When looking about heart inflammation, some Youtube videos popped up. A UK doctor talking about heart inflammation of young men in Israel a month ago, and an update two weeks ago: https://youtu.be/uw2xmtd8dkA https://youtu.be/uw2xmtd8dkA
m0llusk 5y ago
This is reporting 283 diagnosed cases versus 10-102 expected which is still a very small number relative to vaccine doses distributed. Also, causality is still not proven. Given the sample it could be that at least some of these are steroid users as that is also associated with myocarditis. Investigation is still very much just beginning, and in any case the numbers are so small that the vaccines still appear to be quite safe and very much safer than many other activities such as driving.
raydev 5y ago
Crazy coincidence. I'm in my late 30s, now 3 days out from my first dose of Pfizer. I woke up kinda uncomfortable today. Like I'd already had too much coffee just getting out of bed. Within an hour I felt significanty stressed, and I had vague pressure throughout my upper chest, both sides. I was convinced it was my first ever panic attack since it didn't feel like a life ending threat. No acute or vague pains either. My heart rate was elevated like I was currently on a pleasant walk (I was laying on the floor wondering what to do). Apple Watch didn't think anything was worth alerting about. The peak of the "event" lasted about 20 minutes, and I went for an actual walk once I calmed down a bit. I felt comfortable enough to join my personal trainer for a pretty heavy workout a couple hours later. No issues during the workout, but a few hours post-workout now, I don't feel the usual calm/tired feeling. Still kinda feeling like I've had too much caffeine. I'm now wondering if this is what happened to me.
skwb 5y ago
"cardiac MRI which is not always widely available". This is mainly because the views of the heart are super hard to get (exams are done mostly at specialized centers like Stanford)! I actually ended up doing my PhD on automating the cardiac view planes using deep learning.
AndrewBissell 5y ago
The response to this, of course, will be "well the risks of the virus are still higher than those of the vaccine so you should still get it," but I think that misses an important point here. In the absence of long-term safety data on these vaccines, we have engaged in a priori deduction instead: "there's no known mechanism by which mRNA could cause any complications, so it should be fine." The appearance of any significantly higher than expected rate of complications potentially calls that reasoning into question.
- thenaturalist 5y ago
  I suggest your interpretation of such reasoning is questionable? I would posit any serious medical and or regulatory body is fully aware that an absolute statement like "no known mechanism" resulting in complications isn't worth much in the face of highly complex and sometimes still little understood mammal bio-chemistry? What can be asserted with confidence though, is that in the presence of vaccines, severe effects of a infectious disease like COVID are significantly reduced - to the great benefit of the health system and society overall - and that, due to the quite different biological responses to vaccine vs. actual infection, severe effects in general are reduced massively. See lame-robot-hoax's comments. Nothing in life and certainly with regards to COVID is entirely risk free.
  - briefcomment 5y ago
    > "to the great benefit of the health system and society overall" I don't think we can say anything about what the net effect will be, seeing as the mRNA vaccines are novel in significant ways.
kybernetyk 5y ago
This means it’s working.
- seaman1921 5y ago
  the point is - it should be studied whether this is causing any permanent heart damage
  - daenz 5y ago
    We shouldn't study things like that because it will only be used to support antivaxxer arguments /s
malwarebytess 5y ago
Something I wonder about: What if inflammation like this is common in many illnesses and simply goes undetected? A previously unseen symptom because no one was paying attention and small illnesses like colds don't receive the level of scrutiny that Covid-19 received.
- phantom784 5y ago
  Wouldn't the control group have the same level of inflammation in that case?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
cronix 5y ago
Dr. Bret Weinstein, Dr. Robert Malone (invented mRNA tech) and Steve Kirsch had a most fascinating discussion on youtube that touches on this, but touches on much bigger direct and indirect issues as well. I'd urge people to watch: https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=591 https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=591
- briefcomment 5y ago
  This was worthwhile. Not sure why you're being downvoted.
tediousdemise 5y ago
I got J&J even after the negative coverage. It uses the same delivery method (a modified adenovirus) as the vaccine used in China, which has already been tested on billions of people. I was skeptical about the mRNA mechanism of action from the start. I wonder how much our lifespans will be reduced by these vaccines?
- ailun 5y ago
  Which Chinese vaccine are you talking about? The two common ones are Sinovac and Sinopharm; neither uses a modified adenovirus. Also, neither of them have been taken by billions of people.
  - tediousdemise 5y ago
    Apologies, I meant the CanSino vaccine. Russia's Sputnik vaccine also utilizes adenovirus and I regard Russia as having one of the world's finest medical institutions.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
akomtu 5y ago
It's worth remembering, that Pfizer got to distribute vaccines on special terms that indemnified it from any liability.
- Sleepytime 5y ago
  Pfizer has a long history of criminal behavior. This was written in 2010. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875889/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875889/
GreaterFool 5y ago
Is heart inflammation serious? News outlets report “increased risk of X condition” usually without any background on the seriousness of the condition.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
dsr_ 5y ago
Actual numbers from the article: --- There were 283 observed cases of heart inflammation after the second vaccine dose in those aged 16 to 24 in the VAERS data. That compares with expectations of 10-to-102 cases for that age range based on U.S. population background incidence rates, the CDC said. --- The population for this is 130 million people who had one or both doses. So, the chances might increase from one in a million (or possibly one in ten million) to as much as two in a million. OK. I don't think about one in a million risks, even though they happen to about 8,000 people a day. It's not reasonable.
- ds206 5y ago
  I'm just curious, do you think your chances of dying or having serious problems from catching covid is higher or lower than one in a million?
psychomugs 5y ago
Adding my anecdata: I’m a male in my mid-20’s, am decently fit with a slower-than-average heart rate, and have a benign congenital heart condition. First shot was fine apart from a sore arm, second shot forced me to take a day off. Smooth sailing since then, but occasionally do notice palpitations, which I chalk up to stress, but I’d be lying if I said this didn’t make me a bit weary.
neonate 5y ago
https://archive.md/3U7Ot https://archive.md/3U7Ot
xyst 5y ago
mRNA vaccines are likely the future of vaccinations, but I continued with the older and battle tested vaccination route (whichever provider was offering the 1 dose vaccine). I know these are cases are very rare, but I would like to do my part in minimizing any potential risks.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Are you referring to J&J? Did you know that there has only been 1 vaccine using the adenovirus platform approved, for Ebola? It's just as experimental.
  - xyst 5y ago
    From what I know, adenovirus based vaccines have been studied for many decades. Also I see there have been vaccines deployed for use in military personnel in the past.
JonRo 5y ago
I can't verify the accuracy of this video (Dr Malone does seem accomplished but also a history of what appears some victimization in the vaccine world). I haven't been able to find any critique or clarification on the claims re toxicity of spike proteins in the body. https://youtu.be/Du2wm5nhTXY https://youtu.be/Du2wm5nhTXY
JonRo 5y ago
Watch this yet to be verified video re toxicity of the spike protein in the Covid mRNA vaccines https://youtu.be/Du2wm5nhTXY https://youtu.be/Du2wm5nhTXY

466 points by smaili 5y ago

DennisP 5y ago

It'd be nice if they mentioned how many cases there were, compared to number of shots.

mario_lopez 5y ago
Agreed. Context matters here. I'd hate for this to get blown out of proportion like the blood clot issue did, causing massive confidence declines in places all over, especially those struggling to roll out vaccines and keep their COVID cases under control. Obviously, if the numbers are alarming, we must react accordingly.
- dfsegoat 5y ago
  They are alarming based on the measure of Observed vs. Expected cases. Observed (O) cases in that age group: 283 Expected (E) cases in that age group: 10-102 So at least double the top of the confidence interval, for expected.
  - shawabawa3 5y ago
    but that's out of 13m doses, so ~200 out of 13m. I'm not sure how that compares to the expected harm from catching covid but I imagine the vaccine still ends up massively favourable
    - swader999 5y ago
      Have to really consider if the 200 are but a fraction of the actual though. I mean how many are going to be reported?
      - fwip 5y ago
        I'd wager it's approximately the same fraction of myocarditis cases that are reported in the unvaccinated group. There may even be a bias toward over-reporting myocarditis in the wake of a vaccine, as people are primed to look for side effects.
    - dfsegoat 5y ago
      Per the article. The age group of concern "accounted for less than 9% of doses administered." Also, underreporting is a factor - not everyone knows about VAERS, not everyone goes to the Dr. for chest pain etc. I agree it's favorable, but it's important to understand the effects of any medicine on subgroups of a treatment population.
    - nwellnhof 5y ago
      This depends a lot on the probability of contracting Covid at all. Roughly speaking, if there's a 1% chance to contract the disease, the vaccine has to be at least 100 times safer. As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem.
      - heisenbit 5y ago
        > As the chance to catch Covid decreases over time, the risks associated with vaccines become more of a problem. This is a big assumption. It could also be that it becomes part of the virus background infections we all deal with except that it is high risk if you get it the first time. When looking that the risk of an non vaccinated individual catching Covid today keep in mind that a lot of people have been vaccinated and the incidence numbers de-facto refer to incidences of the non vaccinated part of the population which would justify a smaller denominator than used (whole population).
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        Without vaccines the risk of catching covid is of around 70% at least.
        HPsquared 5y ago
        Is that for an individual not taking the vaccine but benefiting from herd immunity of others, or a person in a while society without vaccines?
        sudosysgen 5y ago
        For society in general. That said, there is no guarantee that herd immunity will ever be reached at least in the US. If herd immunity isn't reached then it's basically guaranteed you'll get it eventually as the disease becomes a "background disease".
  - fwip 5y ago
    Right, but you've got to look at the absolute rate, which in this case is 283 out of 12 million, which is roughly 24 people per million. You can look at the risk of what it's preventing (covid has already killed ~1700 people per million in the US), or compare to other activities and risk levels. Relative risk comparisons between different activities are often not useful. For example, the risk of shark-death at the beach might look alarming when compared to my risk of shark-death-at-home, but actually it's vanishingly unlikely.
    - makomk 5y ago
      The trouble is that the people apparently at risk from this are not the people at risk from Covid-19. The risk to people between the ages of 12 and 24 from Covid is really, really small. Especially towards the lower end of that age range, most countries seem to be seeing low single-digit per million deaths: https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4642(21)00066-3/fulltext https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lanchi/article/PIIS2352-4...
      - jlokier 5y ago
        The risk of death from Covid-19 is low in that age range. But what about the risk of heart inflammation from Covid-19 in that age group, possibly with no other Covid symptoms?
        robbiep 5y ago
        That’s the right question to ask
        fwip 5y ago
        There's also the relatively high chance that you'll pass the infection on to another person, who may not be nearly as healthy/resilient as you.
- journey_16162 5y ago
  I would like to see it uncovered. I did not sign up for heart inflammation and any potential future problems that may come out from it.
meibo 5y ago
They do, in this exact article. 283 cases were noted in the VAERS database, there are about 130 million fully vaccinated people in the US. I assume they don't track healthy people in the database of adverse vaccination reactions.
- DennisP 5y ago
  So they do. I'm pretty sure they added that after I read it.
handrous 5y ago
The whole article could use a lot more context, which has been typical of COVID reporting. For one thing: is heart inflammation a rare side-effect for vaccines and/or immune responses generally? If not, to what degree (if any) does this exceed rates we see for other vaccines? That should be second-paragraph-of-article sorts of information.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sdenton4 5y ago
  Exactly this. I'm curious how much we're seeing effects that are present but just haven't been measured previously, because of the size of the newly-vaccinated population. The second dose is obviously very stressful on the body - people are often down for a couple days dealing with the reaction - so it seems unsurprising that there's /some/ kind of measurable secondary effect. Stress is known to correlate with heart attack.
sbierwagen 5y ago
They link to the CDC slide deck. Slide 14: https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download 488 total reports from Pfizer-BioNTech, 301 reports from Moderna. Slide 18 shows proportions. 12,169,692 doses administered. Expected number (base rate) of Myocarditis/pericarditis cases in persons under 25, 10 to 103. Cases observed: 277. So it roughly quadrupled the base rate. Which brings the adverse reaction rate up to... 0.000276%
- amluto 5y ago
  This only requires that a person with myocarditis be 3-4x as likely to notice it after a COVID vaccine than without a COVID vaccine. That seems consistent with a real effect but also consistent with no vaccine effect at all.
- Fomite 5y ago
  The debate between presenting absolute vs. relative rates is a really interesting one in epidemiology, for the record, with roots spanning everything from "absolute risk regression models are actually kind of tricky" to the early arguments about smoking and lung cancer, casual criteria, and R.A. Fisher being on the wrong side of history.
dfsegoat 5y ago
It's a postmarketing surveillance system [1]. Not a controlled trial, so the true exposure vs. reported cases isn't known for these data from VAERS. > "There were 283 observed cases of heart inflammation after the second vaccine dose in those aged 16 to 24 in the VAERS data. That compares with expectations of 10-to-102 cases for that age range based on U.S. population background incidence rates, the CDC said." They use Observed vs. Expected cases in order to calculate e.g. a reporting odds ratio [2], which can loosely guide you in finding events which occur disproportionately. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmarketing_surveillance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmarketing_surveillance 2. https://allaboutpharmacovigilance.org/43-reporting-odds-ratio-ror/ https://allaboutpharmacovigilance.org/43-reporting-odds-rati...

thatswrong0 5y ago

Anecdote: I had this reaction to the 2nd dose of the Pfizer vaccine, saw a cardiologist and she mentioned that she’s been seeing this quite a bit after the second dose. Have had to lay low for a month, but it seems like the symptoms are finally passing.

popotamonga 5y ago
What kind of symptoms makes one go to a cardiologist? Just curious
- mannykannot 5y ago
  Arrhythmias are perhaps the most specific indicators that you should see a cardiologist, but chest pain and/or shortage of breath on mild exercise could well be caused by a heart problem. These are some of the symptoms of myocarditis, among other things.
- thatswrong0 5y ago
  I went to the doctor because of general shortness of breath all the time, heart rate spiking during normal activity like standing up, palpitations out the wazoo, and general fatigue.
- atom_arranger 5y ago
  I'm 27 and experienced a lot of chest pains and skipped heartbeats earlier this year. One night I stood up quickly, walked a bit then lost consciousness (low blood pressure), hit my head on the way down. I had an ambulance to the ER after that, they didn't find anything wrong during that visit. I was referred to a cardiologist, had a holter monitor, ECG, and stress test. None of those turned up any issue. Going by what I've read about this online I suspect I may have had myocarditis from a case of COVID, but I think that would only show up on an MRI, not the tests I got. Luckily the palpitations and chest pain have mostly gone away over the past couple months. In relation to speculation about COVID and myocarditis cases elsewhere on this page: I doubt my case will be reported because the association between COVID and heart problems didn't seem to be on the radar of any of the doctors I saw.
5y ago

xml123 5y ago

Can the government present anything in a useful manner? The most important information, i.e. if the young men engaged in heavy sports right after getting the vaccine, is missing. Heavy sports is obviously also dangerous while recovering from the flu. But the disorganized chaotic government presentation doesn't give any useful information.

searine 5y ago
That is a hypothesis but there isn't enough data yet to prove that is the definitive truth. We know it's rare, its above the expected mean, but could still be just statistical noise. It would be irresponsible to report that as the headline because this is still a developing topic. What's important is that the FDA was watching it closely enough to detect the effect, and are following up on it. Good job FDA. That's the kind of thing I want my taxes spent on.
macinjosh 5y ago
Be careful criticizing government on HN it will be buried in down votes by the fanatics for whatever party is currently in power.
- dang 5y ago
  Please don't break the site guidelines like this. Comments like this are tedious and the perceptions are notoriously in the eye of the beholder. (No, we don't care if people criticize the government. We care about comment quality and ensuing discussion quality.) https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
jimmyswimmy 5y ago
Your question isn't really well-posed. It's more about scientific communications than about government communications, and scientists are notoriously poor at communicating nuanced technical information to the general public. And the general public is notoriously poor at appreciating nuance. Really, if this were intended for public consumption, they would avoid abbreviations like "AEs" and instead spell out "Adverse Events" or maybe be much more specific. I doubt most people even on here know what "pyrexia" is, I had to look it up to be sure. Anyway, more to your point, the data presented is collected from VAERS. I've spent some time reading these exact data lately to try to understand the risk/reward for vaccinating children. The system is intentionally, I think, focused on a free-text data input, along with a huge grab bag of drop-down-box symptoms. In any event, there's no obvious way to ensure people report other activities. If you read some of the VAERS reports you might appreciate my point better. They range from professional reports clearly written by a medical professional, to personal discussions, and in this age group have a lot of reports written by parents. In none of the hundreds I read did a person describe participation in heavy sports. By that omission we can conclude nothing whatsoever regarding the relationship between heavy sports and vaccination. The powerpoint from FDA that I read actually gave a lot of useful information. It was a much better summary of the VAERS data than I was able to glean by manually reading through the reports. Myocarditis <edit: no!> and syncope seemed to me to be the most frequent side effect of vaccination at least in this age group, and the powerpoint seems to align with my impression. EDIT: Syncope seemed to me to be the most frequent based on eyeballing the reports. I actually didn't notice myocarditis at all when I first looked through VAERS reports, not sure why I wrote that originally.

_Microft 5y ago

The interesting table with absolute numbers is on page 18 of [0]. Expected and observed cases are cases of myocarditis / pericarditis here. Crude rate is the number of cases per 1 million administered doses. Use landscape mode if you are reading this from a mobile device, the table is narrow enough for that. Age group Doses Crude Expected Observed administ. rate cases cases 12–15 yrs 134,041 22.4 0–1 2 16–17 yrs 2,258,932 35.0 2–19 79 18–24 yrs 9,776,719 20.6 8–83 196 [0] (PDF) https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download https://www.fda.gov/media/150054/download

delecti 5y ago
Crude rate seems to be observed cases per million doses administered. So a lot more incidents than expected, but still extremely rare (0.002% of doses). Edit: missed an extra "0" in that percent, thanks for the the catch everyone who did
- _Microft 5y ago
  Thanks! It also says that in the footnote. I added it to the comment.
- thebean11 5y ago
  But it's only been a few months since administration, will the gap between expected and actual keep growing, or will they eventually level out?
  - delecti 5y ago
    Considering it mentions this is showing up within 1 week of administration, and there are already millions of "doses administered" accounted for in the figures, I wouldn't expect the rate to change significantly either way. I'm not a statistician though.
  - drknownuffin 5y ago
    Post-viral myocarditis / pericarditis usually occurs in the days to weeks (up to about a month, generally) following a viral infection.

lame-robot-hoax 5y ago

Any information on the rate of myocarditis after vaccination vs myocarditis after infection?

sudoaza 5y ago

Maybe has to do with testing it on healthy people who doesn't represent general population?

Jolter 5y ago
It’s just too rare to pop up in the studies, even if n=30000

antattack 5y ago

I think that many people who did not have heart issues before don't know what to look for or how it feels. Personally, I did not know I had palpitations until I googled it later. Similarly, I suspect, that some kids/young adults may have had symptoms but don't report.

habibur 5y ago
That can be covered by double blind tests.
majormajor 5y ago
This would be reflected in the "expected rate" data that we compare against, though, right? Many people who naturally have an episode wouldn't ever see a doctor...

Kognito 5y ago

Very interesting given one of the lesser known complications of covid can be myocarditis in otherwise healthy individuals with few or no other covid symptoms. In fact, it’s likely the incidence of covid-induced myocarditis is vastly underreported given it often shows no symptoms and can only reasonably be diagnosed with a cardiac MRI which is not always widely available or advised for less-serious heart conditions. I was diagnosed with myocarditis last year and despite a negative PCR test around the onset of symptoms (light-headedness, heart palpitations, fatigue) was strongly suspected to have contracted covid. I was lucky enough to get my first dose of the moderna vaccine a few months back and beside a few days of increased heart palpitations I’ve had no trouble as far as I’m aware, does make me wonder about getting that second dose though.

hollerith 5y ago
The vaccine and the virus both expose the body to large amounts of the spike protein.
newsclues 5y ago
The spike protein causes cellular damage, doesn’t matter if it comes from the vaccine or virus
- lame-robot-hoax 5y ago
  Yes, but the route in which a vaccination takes place (IM injection into deltoid) should mean that much much less of the spike protein ends up in the heart and lungs vs a natural infection. As well, the overall amount of spike protein in the body will be less. https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/spike-protein-behavior https://blogs.sciencemag.org/pipeline/archives/2021/05/04/sp... “Consider what happens when you’re infected by the actual coronavirus. We know now that the huge majority of such infections are spread by inhalation of virus-laden droplets from other infected people, so the route of administration is via the nose and/or lungs, and the cells lining your airway are thus the first ones to get infected. The viral infection process leads at the end to lysis of the the host cell and subsequent dumping of a load of new viral particles – and these get dumped into the cellular neighborhood and into the bloodstream. They then have a clear shot at the endothelial cells lining the airway vasculature, which are the very focus of these two new papers. Compare this, though, to what happens in vaccination. The injection is intramuscular, not into the bloodstream. That’s why a muscle like the deltoid is preferred, because it’s a good target of thicker muscle tissue without any easily hit veins or arteries at the site of injection. The big surface vein in that region is the cephalic vein, and it’s down along where the deltoid and pectoral muscles meet, not high up in the shoulder. In earlier animal model studies of mRNA vaccines, such administration was clearly preferred over a straight i.v. injection; the effects were much stronger. So the muscle cells around the injection are hit by the vaccine (whether mRNA-containing lipid nanoparticles or adenovirus vectors) while a good portion of the remaining dose is in the intercellular fluid and thus drains through the lymphatic system, not the bloodstream. That’s what you want, since the lymph nodes are a major site of immune response. The draining lymph nodes for the deltoid are going to be the deltoid/pectoral ones where those two muscles meet, and the larger axillary lymph nodes down in the armpit on that side.”

redis_mlc 5y ago

Women ofte report heart problems as nausea, differently than men, who report it as pain. So this side effect may be under-reported or misdiagnosed in women, so not male-only.

AnimalMuppet 5y ago
Hmm. A "hidden" or "silent" heart attack often shows up as fatigue. This could be far more prevalent than data indicates. Note that I'm not saying that it is more prevalent. So far as I know, there is no data to support my suspicion. And, personally, I suspect that if some of that is heart trouble, it's the minority of cases of Covid (and Covid vaccine) fatigue. But I note that the possibility exists that this could be prevalent.

beefman 5y ago

This is based on VAERS data. I encourage the curious to look at this data. I did. I would characterize its quality as so poor that probably no conclusions at all can be drawn from it. And I usually find myself defending the use of noisy and/or small data in similar situations.

ezekg 5y ago
I've heard less than 1% of adverse reactions are actually reported to VAERS.
- Kognito 5y ago
  Yeah, how many people actually bother to report their symptoms if they’re not serious enough to warrant a trip to the doctor (who might report on their behalf)? Mild myo can go undetected quite easily. In fact, it’s known well as being a cause of death in young athletes who only learn of the condition when their heart gives out during intense physical exertion.
  - notjes 5y ago
    I am curious: Who reports that dude that died of a heart attack laying in a ditch somewhere.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    Anecdotally, my girlfriend got the moderna vaccine and got pretty bad skin rashes from it. She went to report it through a link her provider sent her, but the website would not allow her to report any side effects because it had been longer than 48 hours since her shot.
- larrywright 5y ago
  I’ve heard this too, from anti-vaxxers mostly. VAERS is the medical equivalent of Yelp. Anyone can post anything there and looking at the unverified data is not a reliable indication of anything. And, anti-vaxxers have been known to go report things in order to bolster their arguments.

yk 5y ago

Slightly off topic, but it is quite interesting that US media very consistently uses "Pfizer" if the news is good and some variant of "Pfizer/Biontec" if the news is bad. The opposite holds of course for the German press, which addresses the vaccine as "Biontec" when the news is good.

rootusrootus 5y ago
My skept-o-meter is twitching. I'd have to see actual numbers backing that up, as it looks much more like confirmation bias to me.
bonzini 5y ago
Somebody even made a copypasta about it in Italian. My translation is the following: "I’d just like to interject for a moment. What you’re refering to as Pfizer vaccine, is in fact, the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine, or as I’ve recently taken to calling it, BioNTech plus Pfizer vaccine. Pfizer did not develop the vaccine by itself, but rather another company called BioNTech created the original formula, which went through Pfizer's clinical trials and became the vaccine we use these days. Many people who got the vaccine refer to it as the Pfizer vaccine, without realizing it. Through a peculiar turn of events, the BioNTech-Pfizer vaccine which is widely used today is often called "Pfizer", and many of its users are not aware that it is basically the vaccine initially developed by BioNTech. There really is a Pfizer contribute to the vaccine, and these people should partly thank that corporation, but it is just a part of what allowed them to be vaccinated. Pfizer is the distributor and responsible for clinical trials. Clinical trials are an essential part of a vaccine, but useless by itself; they can only be done once somebody developed the vaccine in the first place. So, the Pfizer vaccine can only be used because it was developed in the first place by BioNTech: the whole system is basically BioNTech with Pfizer contributions, or BioNTech/Pfizer. The so-called Pfizer vaccine should really be called BioNTech/Pfizer!"
- dependsontheq 5y ago
  Watching the various vaccines fail in production or in clinical trials gives an interesting perspective on what an amazing and lucky combination BioNTech/Pfizer are. So I think we should be grateful for both companies, amazing scientists and amazing engineers.

splithalf 5y ago

We’ve known this for a month or so. The bottom line is that experts still recommend getting the vaccine.

breadzeppelin__ 5y ago
meanwhile the many experts who don't recommend it are widely and very vocally shunned as 'science deniers'. Andddd downvoted. Cant even point out that there are actual experts on both sides of the argument without people being upset about it.
- seattle_spring 5y ago
  Given everything we know about the virus and the vaccines, that seems like an appropriate label. > Andddd downvoted. Cant even point out that there are actual experts on both sides of the argument without people being upset about it I doubt anyone who downvoted you is "upset."
- tomtheelder 5y ago
  There will be experts, that is people with relevant credentials, on both sides of every issue, but that doesn't mean they always ought to be listened to. They are being heavily criticized here because the science _overwhelmingly_ supports vaccination.
  - Growling_owl 5y ago
    > science _overwhelmingly_ supports vaccination Not to be pedantic about it, but science always, and in any event supports non vaccination for self and everybody else vaccinating instead. This is true for every disease. If possible it's always smart not to inject yourself with stuff. They just can't say it because then everybody would try and be the last person to get the shot, because the last one gets to skip the shot!
    - mustacheemperor 5y ago
      >This is true for every disease. If possible it's always smart not to inject yourself with stuff. Maybe in a vacuum where everyone else around you is guaranteed to get the shot, but based on what I saw from friends and family who contracted COVID, what I've read about its long term effects, and the ongoing uptake of the vaccine I would not say the science inclines me to take my chances without immunity.

splithalf 5y ago

Hope they controlled for vaping.

Giorgi 5y ago

Damn it, I already have heart problems and still in queue for mRNA thinking it was safer than AstraZeneca clots risk. Guess not. Crap.

majormajor 5y ago
The article mentions some hospitalizations but not any deaths, so it still definitely seems safer.
Klonoar 5y ago
FWIW, I also have a heart condition, and experienced no issues. Obviously I can't give you medical advice, but figure it's worth noting that it's not a guaranteed experience. ;P
Daegalus 5y ago
I am 31 and have high BP and had both shots, first shot was.just arm and side pain. second shot was.just fatigue, but I didn't notice any heart issues. maybe my bp meds help, since they bind to ACE receptors but not sure.

peanut_worm 5y ago

Did anyone else get really bad side effects? I felt awful after my first shot and now I an currently recovering from my second shot and feel even worse. I don’t think I have ever felt this bad from an illness.

Izkata 5y ago
It's a thing: https://old.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/ https://old.reddit.com/r/CovidVaccinated/
JPKab 5y ago
There is a relatively high rate (fully acknowledged) of high fever from the MRNA vaccines, particularly after the second dose. Compared to standard vaccines of the past, the rate of fever and illness is dramatically higher. But COVID is so dangerous and contagious that the benefit is higher than the cost. I say this as somebody (if you look at some of my previous comments) who lost my Mother-in-law due to a rare side-effect that is still being researched after her second shot.
- ostenning 5y ago
  It’s alarming that I keep hearing about people who have lost people from a vaccine. It’s now at a higher rate than the virus itself. I’m awaiting Pfizer but I’m quite concerned. Which vaccine did she take?
  - JPKab 5y ago
    I want to emphasize that these events are rare, although probably not as rare as you we think, and that I recommend to people to get vaccinated. That being said, I don't know a single person personally (I live in Colorado, with lots of family and friends in Virginia,NC, and DC) that has died or been hospitalized for COVID, and I happen to know 2 people who suffered cardiac arrest from the Pfizer vaccine, with one (my MIL) dead. The other person is a prominent technologist and former Googler, and he suffered several heart attacks in the hospital after his cardiac arrest. Both were in the midst of a post 2nd shot fever a few hours later when the incidents happened. It should be noted that my experience is anecdotal, and if I lived in NYC, I would certainly know several people hospitalized/dead of COVID. COVID is a very scary virus in the sense that it can cause us to let our guard down. Why? Because of viral load. If you are exposed to a single person with it, your illness will probably not be severe, but if you and dozens of others get on a subway car, sick with covid, a person getting that fat viral load is far more in danger. My primary issue with the way my MIL and my friend were handled with their vaccine induced cardiac arrests was the way the doctors initially (for roughly a week with both, in separate hospital in separate states) gaslit the families and wouldn't even discuss the vaccine being AT ALL RELATED. It was blatantly obvious to us that they were following PR playbooks either forced on them from their employers and/or medical licensing boards. The utter and obvious lack of any form of curiosity was the biggest tell. We can't talk about what happened on social media, at all. It gets deleted and flagged as "misinformation" and "encouraging vaccine hesitancy". The private censorship regime is clumsy, and run/moderated by people who don't seem to understand nuance or respect the intelligence of the public. The result of this? My wife's sister and her husband, who until the incident were NPR listening liberals who were excessive in their obedience to public health authorities, are now listening to fucking Alex Jones. They weren't able to vent their anger and grief or get any information from the normal spaces, and have lost ALL trust of public health authorities. It's horrible to watch, and I"m doing my best to try to keep them grounded as they grieve. They were all in the room when the cardiac arrest happened, and it was very traumatic for them. The denials and gaslighting of the medical staff compounded the issue. (At one point, a doctor insisted my MIL had choked. When told they weren't eating, he insisted that she must have snuck off to get food and sat back down while chewing. Imagine what it was like to hear that idiocy for them) For those of you clamoring for censhorship, ask yourself if my in-laws now becoming Alex Jones listeners was a positive effect of this regime we encouraged to form after Trump's election?

UncleOxidant 5y ago

Seems like maybe we should be recommending the J&J vaccine for men under about 35 and the mRNA vaccines for women in that age group.

Aaronstotle 5y ago

After reading various comments here, I think I might have experienced this after my first dose (Moderna). Noticed some slight chest pain the day after during my ride and my heart rate was about 10bpm higher than normal. Never had any noticeable symptoms after, please take this with a grain of salt because I do cycle a lot (~2-400 miles a month) and I'm not representative of the general population.

JPKab 5y ago

My mother-in-law died 9 days ago, after being on life-support for 2 weeks. All following a sudden onset cardiac arrest 3 hours after getting her second Pfizer shot. She had a fever from the shot, was sitting in the living room watching a movie with family, and her heart suddenly stopped. She was healthy and in her early 60's. The medical team, after a week, concluded it was likely vaccine induced, and reported it to VAERS. A neighbor of mine, who is 35 year old male, had an almost exactly similar event. Because he was younger, he survived. His medical team also reported to VAERS, and the Mayo clinic is researching it. The vaccine is generally safe, and you should get it if you aren't immune to COVID. That being said, the effort to prevent vaccine hesitancy has suppressed media reporting on these events, understandably. They are likely more common than we think, but still relatively rare. MRNA is going to be a revolutionary technology, but we should be honest about the fact that there are going to be some individuals who will experience some extremely nasty side-effects.

myfavoritedog 5y ago
Yep. I know of at least five stroke or adverse heart events in my social circle or one hop out, all had been vaccinated recently. Like you, I maintain that it’s still a lesser risk than COVID... but there seems to be a lot of media/political pushback to just acknowledging the possibility of vaccine problems.
- JPKab 5y ago
  There is also social pushback. I've had a few longtime friends who got angry with me for not remaining completely silent about this. They insist that it's just a coincidence, and since THEY got the shot and are OK, it must be safe, and I'm a horrible person for "spreading fear". They aren't my friends anymore. I don't have room in my life for people who can't understand nuance or recognize their own cognitive dissonance.
throwkeep 5y ago
> That being said, the effort to prevent vaccine hesitancy has suppressed media reporting on these events, understandably. This works with toddlers, but not with adults. Suppressing information ultimately leads to less trust, more hesitancy and more conspiracy theories (they were hiding X, what else are they hiding?). It'd be better if they would just be be transparent and upfront from the start.

jb775 5y ago

The crazy thing about this is even if 75% of people who got the vaccine dropped dead tomorrow, the other 25% would still be convinced it had absolutely nothing to do with the vaccine.

Flatcircle 5y ago

May wife got severe joint pain like arthritis across both arms and in other parts of her body after the Pfizer vax. She's getting several tests done and has been doing physical therapy. It was several months ago and it doesn't seem to be getting better. Her PT said she's been seeing lots of these. She never had covid. I hope she gets better, it's been really difficult.

dQw4w9WgXcQ 5y ago
Have her get blood work for various inflammation and fatigue markers like TSH/FT4/FT3, CBCs, Iron, TIBC, Serum Ferritin, VitD, IL-6, (etc) for a sanity check. Some of it can simply be stress/anxiety which - if not managed - accumulates as whatever condition emotionally feels like it is "not resolving" and produces similar symptoms. If everything checks out, stuff like Omega3s, VitD, Glucosamine, Chondroitin and a good 3-4 week vacation to unwind are all greatly associated with reducing chronic inflammation. I think the challenge we're all facing is Dr's are so overwhelmed with all these "inflammatory"-type conditions where some stuff can slip under the radar but they're all inclined to blame it on anxiety/depression. COVID has been a sneaky fucker wrt asymptomatic infections. The best thing you can do is take as many stressors off the plate and give it 6-9 months. Better 6-9 months off than a lifetime of wading thru chronic issues.
Offpics 5y ago
8 months ago I developed severe pain, burning and stiffness in hands. Then it went to the legs and finnaly to the whole body. It got to a point where I was bedridden and couldnt eat on my own. All of my energy was put into seeing doctors and doing labs tests wich all turned out negative. I was doing PT and pain killers but they were innefective. Finally, I got a meeting with a rheumatologist that said its fibromyalgia. There are no lab tests to prove fibro diagnosis so Im still not sure about this and I suspect it may be a covid sideffect. Luckily fluoxetin helped me to be back in life, overtime it modify brain to reduce the threshold pain in a soft tissue. Covid damages nerve cells in the soft tissue (thats why people lose smell or even has body pains) so the dots are connecting. I hope your wife will get better, I know how hard it is for a whole family. Normally Im a lurker but who knows, maybe this reply will help with your situation.
5y ago

drummer 5y ago

One has to be absolutely stupid to get poisoned with this crap to 'protect' against what is essentially a flu.

notjes 5y ago

So if booster shots are required, will we go through this ordeal like every 12 month until what?

arriu 5y ago

Has anyone looked at whether the mental stress or anxiety induced by putting someone through the process of getting the shot could be maybe be a reason for triggering this? Not the vaccine itself, but the whole routine of line up, answer questions about allergies and other risk factors, then waiting to get the shot, then having to sit there waiting for symptoms to show up... Not to mention people don't like needles either. I can imagine the heart rate during this ordeal is way higher than normal and could trigger inflammation. Not saying that the science here is invalid, just actually curious to know how this gets ruled out.

arriu 5y ago
What's up with the down votes... It is a legitimate question. People get heart inflammation from things like court visits. If you know something then please share.
- version_five 5y ago
  I didn't vote on your post, but I did read it earlier and found it a bit silly. "White coat" syndrome- getting nervous going to the doctor or for medical things, is definitely real. I have it too. I always have a hard time getting my blood pressure checked because I get so involuntarily aggravated by the whole thing. And there are definitely people afraid of needles. But (nearly) everyone has various vaccinations during life, and it feels implausible that you've identified some special new condition people are getting (that in this case was already expected and is just higher) that is specific to these vaccine based on stress instead of the known rare response of the body.
  - arriu 5y ago
    I don't think it's enough to say people get vaccinated and we didn't see this in the past. This is quite different. Many people are afraid of this vaccine more than others in the past. I've had countless arguments with family trying to convince them it's okay. Their arguments are A) it's mRNA, which is new... And B) they argue it was rushed. I can't help but think about how someone with that mental state would feel while in the waiting room.

chronolitus 5y ago

I definitely had this: got the first shot and felt confident, cocksure that I would have no symptoms at all being healthy and young. Woke up during the night ~8 hours after the first shot feeling a little out of breath, with strong and almost painful heartbeats. I chalked it up to being stressed, but found it strange as I had zero reasons to be stressed that particular week. I connected the dots the next day when I still had this feeling, and talked to a doctor in the family who said it was probably heart inflammation, and actually not that uncommon after the vaccine or covid infection. I'm still glad I got vaccinated, but given that heart disease is the #1 cause of death worldwide, I'm surprised the ramifications of heart inflammation aren't taken more seriously (if the heart was permanently damaged in a small way, I'd expect it to manifest many years later).

ev0lv 5y ago
>>I'd expect it to manifest many years later You're spot on. Long term risks take many years to evaluate.

licnep 5y ago

Pretty sure i had this after my second dose of moderna. On the day of my second dose I had a very unique piercing heart pain i never experienced before, thought i was gonna die. Had some arrhythmia/palpitations as well, but didn't go to the doctor or report it, I'm sure many more people experienced this without reporting it, just hope it doesn't cause permanent damage. (31, male)

tchvil 5y ago

When looking about heart inflammation, some Youtube videos popped up. A UK doctor talking about heart inflammation of young men in Israel a month ago, and an update two weeks ago: https://youtu.be/uw2xmtd8dkA https://youtu.be/uw2xmtd8dkA

m0llusk 5y ago

This is reporting 283 diagnosed cases versus 10-102 expected which is still a very small number relative to vaccine doses distributed. Also, causality is still not proven. Given the sample it could be that at least some of these are steroid users as that is also associated with myocarditis. Investigation is still very much just beginning, and in any case the numbers are so small that the vaccines still appear to be quite safe and very much safer than many other activities such as driving.

raydev 5y ago

Crazy coincidence. I'm in my late 30s, now 3 days out from my first dose of Pfizer. I woke up kinda uncomfortable today. Like I'd already had too much coffee just getting out of bed. Within an hour I felt significanty stressed, and I had vague pressure throughout my upper chest, both sides. I was convinced it was my first ever panic attack since it didn't feel like a life ending threat. No acute or vague pains either. My heart rate was elevated like I was currently on a pleasant walk (I was laying on the floor wondering what to do). Apple Watch didn't think anything was worth alerting about. The peak of the "event" lasted about 20 minutes, and I went for an actual walk once I calmed down a bit. I felt comfortable enough to join my personal trainer for a pretty heavy workout a couple hours later. No issues during the workout, but a few hours post-workout now, I don't feel the usual calm/tired feeling. Still kinda feeling like I've had too much caffeine. I'm now wondering if this is what happened to me.

skwb 5y ago

"cardiac MRI which is not always widely available". This is mainly because the views of the heart are super hard to get (exams are done mostly at specialized centers like Stanford)! I actually ended up doing my PhD on automating the cardiac view planes using deep learning.

AndrewBissell 5y ago

The response to this, of course, will be "well the risks of the virus are still higher than those of the vaccine so you should still get it," but I think that misses an important point here. In the absence of long-term safety data on these vaccines, we have engaged in a priori deduction instead: "there's no known mechanism by which mRNA could cause any complications, so it should be fine." The appearance of any significantly higher than expected rate of complications potentially calls that reasoning into question.

thenaturalist 5y ago
I suggest your interpretation of such reasoning is questionable? I would posit any serious medical and or regulatory body is fully aware that an absolute statement like "no known mechanism" resulting in complications isn't worth much in the face of highly complex and sometimes still little understood mammal bio-chemistry? What can be asserted with confidence though, is that in the presence of vaccines, severe effects of a infectious disease like COVID are significantly reduced - to the great benefit of the health system and society overall - and that, due to the quite different biological responses to vaccine vs. actual infection, severe effects in general are reduced massively. See lame-robot-hoax's comments. Nothing in life and certainly with regards to COVID is entirely risk free.
- briefcomment 5y ago
  > "to the great benefit of the health system and society overall" I don't think we can say anything about what the net effect will be, seeing as the mRNA vaccines are novel in significant ways.

kybernetyk 5y ago

This means it’s working.

seaman1921 5y ago
the point is - it should be studied whether this is causing any permanent heart damage
- daenz 5y ago
  We shouldn't study things like that because it will only be used to support antivaxxer arguments /s

malwarebytess 5y ago

Something I wonder about: What if inflammation like this is common in many illnesses and simply goes undetected? A previously unseen symptom because no one was paying attention and small illnesses like colds don't receive the level of scrutiny that Covid-19 received.

phantom784 5y ago
Wouldn't the control group have the same level of inflammation in that case?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

cronix 5y ago

Dr. Bret Weinstein, Dr. Robert Malone (invented mRNA tech) and Steve Kirsch had a most fascinating discussion on youtube that touches on this, but touches on much bigger direct and indirect issues as well. I'd urge people to watch: https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=591 https://youtu.be/-_NNTVJzqtY?t=591

briefcomment 5y ago
This was worthwhile. Not sure why you're being downvoted.

tediousdemise 5y ago

I got J&J even after the negative coverage. It uses the same delivery method (a modified adenovirus) as the vaccine used in China, which has already been tested on billions of people. I was skeptical about the mRNA mechanism of action from the start. I wonder how much our lifespans will be reduced by these vaccines?

ailun 5y ago
Which Chinese vaccine are you talking about? The two common ones are Sinovac and Sinopharm; neither uses a modified adenovirus. Also, neither of them have been taken by billions of people.
- tediousdemise 5y ago
  Apologies, I meant the CanSino vaccine. Russia's Sputnik vaccine also utilizes adenovirus and I regard Russia as having one of the world's finest medical institutions.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

akomtu 5y ago

It's worth remembering, that Pfizer got to distribute vaccines on special terms that indemnified it from any liability.

Sleepytime 5y ago
Pfizer has a long history of criminal behavior. This was written in 2010. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875889/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2875889/

GreaterFool 5y ago

Is heart inflammation serious? News outlets report “increased risk of X condition” usually without any background on the seriousness of the condition.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dsr_ 5y ago

Actual numbers from the article: --- There were 283 observed cases of heart inflammation after the second vaccine dose in those aged 16 to 24 in the VAERS data. That compares with expectations of 10-to-102 cases for that age range based on U.S. population background incidence rates, the CDC said. --- The population for this is 130 million people who had one or both doses. So, the chances might increase from one in a million (or possibly one in ten million) to as much as two in a million. OK. I don't think about one in a million risks, even though they happen to about 8,000 people a day. It's not reasonable.

ds206 5y ago
I'm just curious, do you think your chances of dying or having serious problems from catching covid is higher or lower than one in a million?

psychomugs 5y ago

Adding my anecdata: I’m a male in my mid-20’s, am decently fit with a slower-than-average heart rate, and have a benign congenital heart condition. First shot was fine apart from a sore arm, second shot forced me to take a day off. Smooth sailing since then, but occasionally do notice palpitations, which I chalk up to stress, but I’d be lying if I said this didn’t make me a bit weary.

neonate 5y ago

https://archive.md/3U7Ot https://archive.md/3U7Ot

xyst 5y ago

mRNA vaccines are likely the future of vaccinations, but I continued with the older and battle tested vaccination route (whichever provider was offering the 1 dose vaccine). I know these are cases are very rare, but I would like to do my part in minimizing any potential risks.

thehappypm 5y ago
Are you referring to J&J? Did you know that there has only been 1 vaccine using the adenovirus platform approved, for Ebola? It's just as experimental.
- xyst 5y ago
  From what I know, adenovirus based vaccines have been studied for many decades. Also I see there have been vaccines deployed for use in military personnel in the past.

JonRo 5y ago

I can't verify the accuracy of this video (Dr Malone does seem accomplished but also a history of what appears some victimization in the vaccine world). I haven't been able to find any critique or clarification on the claims re toxicity of spike proteins in the body. https://youtu.be/Du2wm5nhTXY https://youtu.be/Du2wm5nhTXY

JonRo 5y ago

Watch this yet to be verified video re toxicity of the spike protein in the Covid mRNA vaccines https://youtu.be/Du2wm5nhTXY https://youtu.be/Du2wm5nhTXY