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iOS 15 Humane

• MrGilbert 5y ago
  I really dig the "infinite scroll" part. I hate this "feature" from the bottom of my heart. I also like the "conditions" feature. However, I'm not a fan of my device analyzing my behavior and bombarding me with notifications and questions every 15 minutes. To me, that's distracting and way too much noise. I like the way Screen Time already works. Leave the consequences to me, but give me an opportunity to check them.
• ljp_206 5y ago
  I like the idea behind a lot of these things, but it seems like a ton of overhead, both for software implementers and users. It seems kind of odd to claim these changes could be so profound when it seems like it's really only going to be useful for a superuser who's already aware of their screen time issues and would be excited to be able to choose from X toggle options. Additionally, "you are wasting time on your phone, do you want to lock your screen" seems like a feature that would fly with only a very limited set of users. Instead of hooking in to Facebook and adding content settings, to me it seems that in this case the "we should increase data/platform interop" line of thought offers a better solution than hoping the Apple ship can steer in this direction. For that matter, do we know how many people use screenttime tracking/mitigating features anyway?
• zimpenfish 5y ago
  Great ideas but can you imagine the uproar if Apple actually tried this given what they get any time they limit what apps can do?
• chimen 5y ago
  Next thing I’d want my router to shut down the internet due to mindless browsing. Also shut it down when it’s too late…like 11pm sounds enough.
  • Someone 5y ago
    You can do that second part on iOS. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208982 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208982: “When you schedule downtime in Settings, only phone calls and apps that you choose to allow are available. Downtime applies to all of your Screen Time-enabled devices, and you get a reminder five minutes before it starts“
  • gnyman 5y ago
    I'm not site how a router would identify "mindless browsing", but turning off Internet at certain times is a feature many routers have built in, usually under parental control. Worth a look if you haven't checked. Personally I ended up with a bit different solution, I wanted to do something similar, but needed it to work on my phone also so I ended up using nextdns to block part of the Internet (reddit and Facebook) after 10. Works reasonably well as trigger to stop my worst doomscrolling offenders. I wrote up a short post on how to do it https://blog.nyman.re/2021/01/10/reduce-doomscrolling-with.html https://blog.nyman.re/2021/01/10/reduce-doomscrolling-with.h...
• cglong 5y ago
  About 70% of this could probably be implemented on Android today. Might be worthwhile to provide concrete data on the value of these ideas :)
• deanclatworthy 5y ago
  I love this, but do we really think that Apple also isn't using engagement with your phone as an internal success metric? If people use apps less often, they are probably using less apps. If people use less apps, Apple's revenue drops. Unlike Apple's attack on privacy which makes them a differentiator in the marketplace, only at the expense of others, I don't see what's in it for Apple to do this?
  • dannyw 5y ago
    Apple still primarily makes money from hardware sales. They'd rather get you working out, buy an airpod pro, and subscribe to fitness+ than spend time on Facebook.
    • londons_explore 5y ago
      True, but there are still people who don't use their phone much, and therefore don't really mind if they have a 5 year old iPhone. Apple intentionally making that group of users bigger could be very bad for revenue
    • deanclatworthy 5y ago
      Apple made 72.3B revenue from app sales in 2020. This is not an insignificant amount of money, regardless of where it stands next to their hardware sales. Furthemore, if people are using smartphones less maybe they'll realise they don't need an expensive smartphone to check whatsapp...
  • alwillis 5y ago
    Apple did announce ScreenTime API, which enables developers to do some of the things mentioned in the article. Plus Apple’s revenue isn’t based on app engagement; it’s hardware and services primarily. Using some apps less doesn’t impact the big picture of subscriptions (Music, iCloud+, News*, etc.) or hardware purchases like a new iPhone, AirPods, etc.
  • tlholaday 5y ago
    > If people use apps less often, they are probably using less apps. They’re probably using more apps from more authors, each app being built to do one thing well.
• KingMachiavelli 5y ago
  Apple really is in a unique position. However their are a few areas in which they drastically lack and TBH it is not App privacy disclosure - everyone knows Facebook is physically, mentally, and spiritually bad /s I was quite anti-Apple for a long time on the basis of it being a luxury brand that restricts the freedom of its users. But it recent years as phone performance has become less of an issue meaning Apple's older phone models are basically just as good as mid-tier current year Android, the luxury label is not as extreme. Additionally the M1 launch which basically transformed their 'real' computer laptop from being overpriced and literally hot garbage - to the best* dollar for dollar mobile machines. So basically Apple has the hardware and software polished and at a great value but they have a very integrated ecosystem which means a single flaw breaks the whole cohesion. Primarily, E2E encryption is broken by design because iCloud backup are not E2E and you can't know if any message recipient has iCloud enabled. Sure you could just use Signal/Matrix/etc but it breaks the cohesion - does your Apple watch get Matrix notification with the same polish as iMessage? Also iMessage is also still iOS only right? Which is just insane. For a time Blackberry messenger was the best thing but it didn't last partly because it was vendor locked. Whild I can ignore limits of phone OS's for the sake of security; MacOS is sort of anti-user to the point that third party projects like Homebrew work day & night to fix the ecosystem. Luckily now Nix(OS) on Darwin is an option for a more complete ecosystem but it is still other people fixing Apple's mistakes for free which is just unbearable. Considering Microsoft runs Github which I believe Hombebrew and NisOS still both use extensively and I believe they do so for free or very cheaply(?) In any case, Apple seems like a poor steward of open source compared to other FAANGM(?) companies... maybe I am wrong but the G, M, & F seem more active than the Apple. Apple did just kill/abandon CUPs etc. Again, I would just like to be wrong. Maybe you can already use Linux with Apple devices very well and maybe turning off iMessage and iCloud solves the E2E problem. But it just seems like Apple is 90% of the way there but refuses to do the last 10%. I guess what I mean to say is Apple has some real problems to fix of its own before it should critize other apps even more. For instance, does iMessage come with a warning about broken/nerfed E2E? Or that mobile Safari has an anti-user and anti-standards implementation of PWAs (again last I check)?
  • Arathorn 5y ago
    > does your Apple watch get Matrix notification with the same polish as iMessage? yes, actually. Element iOS has dedicated Watch support and provides parity to iMessage (ability to react and reply etc to msgs). There’s also native Apple Watch Matrix clients so you don’t need to be tethered to your phone.
• rho4 5y ago
  Meanwhile, today Microsoft gifted us a brand new "News & interests" area in the taskbar lobbying for our focus and attention. Successfully... I even had to google how to turn it off, and write this comment.
  • iansinnott 5y ago
    Also had to do the same. The method of disabling it, while not immediately obvious, didn't seem intentionally user-hostile. However, the idea of modifying any part of a user's desktop without their explicit input is troubling to say the least.
    • design-material 5y ago
      Microsoft's recent history with 'forced UI additions' of this sort would imply it is indeed intentionally user-hostile.
      • bogwog 5y ago
        Exactly why more people should switch to Linux on their desktops/laptops. > but Linux sucks, it's ugly, it's broken, it doesn't work, blah blah blah! The amount of time people spend complaining about the evil shit their monopolist is doing to them would be better spent learning how to use Linux. It's not that hard. A farmer isn't going to make changes to their business model because the cattle is complaining. Microsoft is going to keep doing what they're doing until the government steps in (which is unlikely to happen any time soon). Same goes for Apple, Amazon, Google, and all these companies that are immune to competitive forces.
    • bitcharmer 5y ago
      Google started doing this on mobile with their chrome for android. Some time ago they introduced an alternative method of presenting open tabs in a grid instead of a list. They of course made the new setting the default and you have to do a Web search to find out how to revert it to the previous setting. They also disregard your choice upon every update and switch you back to grid view. Google has become the epitome of bad ux and user-hostile design.
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• Saint_Genet 5y ago
  Yes, let a userbase that is dominated by american, white, middle-class people determine what is time well spent. I'm sure that's gonna be applicable to everyone in the world.
• hypertele-Xii 5y ago
  Such a complicated solution. Here's a much simpler one: Stop using Facebook. Problem solved.
  • glitchcrab 5y ago
    In the same way that an alcoholic can just stop drinking and then they're no longer an alcoholic, right? That's not how addiction works.
    • junon 5y ago
      Habitual addiction and chemical addiction are not the same things. Cutting Facebook cold turkey has few if any of the side effects cutting alcohol cold turkey has.
      • Ma8ee 5y ago
        It has the effect of the existential dread of being alone with your thoughts.
        • junon 5y ago
          That has nothing to do with addiction.
          • philosopher1234 5y ago
            I disagree, i think it’s the basis of a lot of addiction.
            • kaba0 5y ago
              There is psychological addiction and chemical addiction. Both suck, and you are likely better off gradually decreasing the activity/drug in both cases, but there is a real difference that in the latter case you must gradually decrease it, else you will have very severe side-effects, for example with alcohol it is called delirium tremens.
• lewich 5y ago
  Would be really nice to have this, but what are the chances? I am still thinking it would be better to be off-facebook (already got off twitter, instagram and other networks), but keeping in touch with local community is not possible then.
• Crazyontap 5y ago
  Even though this article is sarcastic(?) I can't help but get genuinely angry at these trillion dollar companies thinking they know what is better for us and trying to control and police everything. This is even worse than govt censoring porn and cuss-words back in the day thinking they know what is moral for the society. I was just talking to a friend the other day on how badly Apple and Google are trying their best to kill curiosity and creativity. I mean when I first got my 286 the machine was just full of possibilities. I think learning the ins and outs of it was more fun than doing anything productive. I used to hack away at it all day and night. Learning about interrupts, tinkering with the BIOS settings, hacking the serial port, irq, etc. Now everything is just locked down. In my latest phone I can't even run `fastboot` as that too has been locked down permanently because "security". Thank god we have Linux created before all this Bullshit started happening. If Apple, Google and Microsoft was in charge of things as they are now, we wouldn't even have any hardware to run anything else than Windows and iOS.
  • trustfundbaby 5y ago
    Sounds like a business opportunity ...
    • slver 5y ago
      Yes, just imagine the billions of people eagerly awaiting a blank smartphone that they can tinker the BIOS settings of.
      • prawn 5y ago
        Reminds me of the "women want pockets in all their clothes" angle. If it were vital, someone would be making buckets of money from that exact solution. That you don't hear about it suggests that fashion-first is king in the sort of clothing you wear out. Every year there's a new pitch from a modular laptop or a hackable smartphone. Never met anyone who uses one though.
    • fsflover 5y ago
      https://puri.sm/products/librem-5 https://puri.sm/products/librem-5
• colordrops 5y ago
  How about just making network access for apps opt-in rather than opt-out, and further more also making background network access a permission request, and something that can be monitored.
  • astrange 5y ago
    You can get that by using a Chinese iPhone.
    • colordrops 5y ago
      Which phone?
      • astrange 5y ago
        All phones sold in China will have this behavior. I don't remember if changing the region to China on a US phone will do it or not.
• colordrops 5y ago
  The FDroid app store kind of does something similar to this.
• onurcel 5y ago
  why stop there? why wouldn't you make an OS that would turn the phone off if you use it more than 1 minute? Boum, you solved everything.
• timdaub 5y ago
  What's even worse is when you start to compare your phone with the operating system of your laptop. Then you'll realize how much of our lifes are in the hands of a few designers from Silicon Valley. Sure, you can "disable notifications" for an app: But how about I can just "close" this app like I can on my computer?
• srg0 5y ago
  It's a sad state of things when we on _hacker_ news discuss an open letter to a proprietary software vendor asking to implement pagination in what was supposed to be a web page. And Android is not much better in practice.
• busymom0 5y ago
  Almost all of this could be achieved via third party apps if the screen time data was available via an API and background app mode. I understand why it's not though as it's a lot of personal data. However Apple does provide access to health data via the HealthKit so maybe they can do something similar for Screen time? Did they make any API changes in iOS 15 announced yesterday?
  • geoffpado 5y ago
    Yes, there is now a Screen Time API: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeviceActivity https://developer.apple.com/documentation/DeviceActivity and it allows you to do things like block other apps: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/ManagedSettings https://developer.apple.com/documentation/ManagedSettings, but there's nothing like a background mode that will pop up outside of either your app or the app you're managing.
• xmprt 5y ago
  I really like the idea of having permissions for what kind of experience an app can show. For example, if Facebook had a way to disable infinite feeds and disable videos then I'd be more likely to use it on my phone (whereas right now, I never use it). We have permission settings for things like camera, microphone, and file system access. Why not go an extra step and add permissions on how apps take up our time.
  • aembleton 5y ago
    To disable auto playing videos In the Facebook app. Click the hamburger menu > Settings & Privacy > Mobile data usage > Tick 'Never Autoplay videos' Yes, that applies to wifi too.
• danappelxx 5y ago
  This concept is really well put together, and I would love to see it come to life. That said, this quote made me laugh out loud > For example if you're struggling to use Tinder responsibly, you could create a condition that you can only use the app while FaceTiming with a friend.
  • eyelidlessness 5y ago
    Look it’s a pandemic. I don’t know if people are still having Tinder parties but they might be having Tinder Zooms?
    • dlivingston 5y ago
      It’s not a pandemic in the US anymore with the vaccine surplus that we have. Many people still feel that we’re in one, though. In the words of John Lennon: “war is over (if you want it)”
      • mjhagen 5y ago
        Send that surplus to countries that need it.
        • ddoolin 5y ago
          Pretty OT here but they're (the Biden WH) buying 500M doses to send elsewhere as of the headlines today (6/9).
      • eyelidlessness 5y ago
        It was a joke bud
• alirsgp 5y ago
  I love this. I hope it's pushed thru. I would send this to Tim Cook: tcook@apple.com or federighi@apple.com
  • deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
• ishitatsuyuki 5y ago
  Things like infinite scroll and autoplay should come with an option to turn them off and I think that’s well presented. Those are kind of dark patterns after All. Though, Apple probably isn’t in the position to enforce that; we unfortunately need to live with Jailbreak tweaks for them. But the rest of the post feels so off. Constantly nagging yourself to close social media? Reminding yourself that social media is a waste of time by asking whether the time is “well spent”? No thanks. These are just dark patterns but flipped to the other side. I want control over what I do, not a random program deciding what I should do. I also have never found Screen Time restrictions to be effective; either I unlock the restrictions by myself, or I just find other ways to waste the time. The reason people waste so much time with social media, I think, is because they simply don’t have anything else to do, or they’re not motivated enough to do what they should do.
  • retreatguru 5y ago
    What if the reminders could be more personalized or something that you write to your future self. For example: "Are you scrolling on the couch again amigo?, stop and hang out with your family!"
    • warkdarrior 5y ago
      Even better, Facebook could provide these reminders and prompts, based on the information they collected by tracking your location and web browsing.
  • sneak 5y ago
    Infinite scroll is not a dark pattern. Dark patterns are explicitly designed to conflate or deceive. Infinite scroll just gives people more of what they want. Turns out, most people, most of the time, want the gorbage.
    • donkeyd 5y ago
      Alcoholics want booze, but many of them wake up every day thinking today they won't drink anything, but they still do. Infinite scroll is a dark pattern in the way it gives you something your addicted brain wants, and therefore you think you might want, but it's actually just a way for them to get more money. Personal anecdote: I hardly read more than the front page on HN, even though I consider HN one of the least 'time wasted' sites I use, because I usually learn a lot because of it. On Reddit I just keep scrolling even though I often consider it wasted time in hindsight. I don't want HN to get infinite scroll and I deleted the Reddit app from my phone.
• retreatguru 5y ago
  This is brilliant and would help just a little bit to bring us back from our global phone addiction. It's a start at least.
• albertTJames 5y ago
  That must be one of the more interesting blog post I have read in a long time. We need more solution driven people, great insights.
• beermonster 5y ago
  I think this is great. Hopefully someone at Apple is reading.
• bb101 5y ago
  Has anyone else tried the app "Friendly"? For a while I've wanted to stop using Facebook, but quite a few community groups I'm involved with use it as their only method of communication. Friendly is an augmented wrapper for the mobile web versions of Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn and a few of the other time-sappers. I find it works really well. I still get to use an app to access the information in an convenient way, but without the bells and whistles that make hours pass like minutes, and without having to give the platforms access to my phone's metadata. Downside: it is clunkier than the respective apps, but then that's the point.
  • occamschainsaw 5y ago
    Thank you for the suggestion. I just set up Friendly+ for a couple of time sinks like Instagram (hide stories, go straight to chat page), Facebook (hide stories, disable suggstions), Youtube (go straight to Subscriptions page), Twitter (disable promoted tweets) and even HackerNews. I also like that you can save tweets and other media posts easily.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• spython 5y ago
  The article wants Apple to save us from mindless browsing, but I see mindless browsing as unavoidable. Not because of some technical or legal thing, but because mindless browsing is a good thing. We need it. Mindless browsing is like a walk through the woods, just looking for what is happening, navigating a huge amount of information that is hardly important at the moment – oh, the cherry tree is blooming – but could be important later. The 'outside' is made up of myriads of tiny details – wind is moving the leaves, slowly and irregularly, the birds are singing, insects flying through the air, the earth feels soft and damp and smells of freshness after the rain, the movements of clouds and the sun are inexorably changing the lighting. We are, however, spending time in concrete boxes where nothing ever moves, and even seal off the sounds and air flow from the outside. Within those boxes we sit and lie and enter other, flatter spaces of our screens, which nonetheless offer us the possibility of some kind of change, movement in the world.. Of course we will browse those changes mindlessly. Since mainstream social media has turned into a manipulative toxic landscape, I find myself retreating to more niche and better moderated sites, devoid of hate and over-strained emotions. I also find myself wishing for a digital space, be it a game or a website, that would feel similar to a walk in the woods – where a lot is happening but not much is important. Like watching the breaking of waves on the beach. Like sitting at a campfire. Like watching the tree tops move in the wind. I like mindless browsing. I enjoy it. Just give me the right space for it.
  • andrepd 5y ago
    A walk through the woods is not engineered by Las Vegas casino designers backed by petabytes of user data to be as addictive as possible. There's taking an aimless stroll and there's compulsively opening reddit or facebook at 3am.
    • spython 5y ago
      Yes, of course it has a lot to do with information hygiene. We need to be more particular about what we let into our minds, we just don't have the tradition for it yet. Browsing facebook is more like taking a walk in a dystopian junkyard than a forest, and a sign by Apple saying "you might be browsing a junkyard" would just add to this dystopia. This is why the proposal is to design better spaces for mindless browsing, since we apparently need it.
• dionidium 5y ago
  I went into this pretty skeptical, but by the end I was convinced that this is a good endeavor. For example, batching notifications for certain kinds of apps is a truly great idea. I don’t agree with every suggestion here, but it’s clear to me that thinking about these issues could lead to some more good ideas.
• fumblebee 5y ago
  A lot of commenters are hating on the article -- I fail to see why. Whether all the ideas are good or not is up for debate, but putting control in the hands of users for combatting dark patterns and dampening addictive habits at source is only a good thing. During the pandemic I've seen my daily phone usage soar, I wish I had some form of iOS 15 Humane.
• pedalpete 5y ago
  I wonder if there is an opportunity for an open consortium of apps that could define guidelines and qualify apps that are built with positive impact on the user in mind. We've recently been discussing how we can be proactive with our user's data, and tell them why we want to use their data, what data, and for how long we'll use it, etc. Because we're likely using the data in health and wellness research, it's not just "hey we want to show you better ads", so we believe there is real benefit to the user here. Does such a consortium exist? Should one?
• stef25 5y ago
  For me the only situation I consider "ok" for mindless browsing is while keeping and eye on the kids. Reading a book or anything else that requires concentration is impossible because you have to look up / intervene every x minutes. The whole mobile online experience has become so bad, it's soul destroying. I don't go near social media anymore and prefer to just read interesting things. While not signed in to Google (because f*ck that), every search I do is met with a Google disclaimer I have to tap 3x to reach the bottom and tap once more to "agree" (no idea what I'm agreeing to). If you tap the wrong way (too quickly?) it zooms in and you have to use two fingers to zoom out again. Then whatever site you end up has a cookie disclaimer, an "enter your email" popup and often even a third one with some promo crap. So often it's more than 5 fiddly taps just to get to the content and then you have to hope there's no paywall. Infinite scroll is a complete horror show. I find myself mindlessly doom scrolling through job and real estate sites, tapping likes while I'm not even looking for a job or a house. I can't quite live without smartphone (GPS, music, audiobooks ...) but I almost wish they were never invented.
  • GordonS 5y ago
    > While not signed in to Google (because fck that), every search I do is met with a Google disclaimer I have to tap 3x to reach the bottom and tap once more to "agree" (no idea what I'm agreeing to) Oh, this drives me nuts - it's every.single.time I open google in a private tab! I mean, they know* that nobody is reading this before hitting "I agree".
• vmception 5y ago
  Out of all these I like the conditional app unlock They should extend it to certain urls too!
• ckolkey 5y ago
  I absolutely love this idea. I find that nudges or 'speedbumps' offer just enough of a barrier to get me to reconsider my own actions, sort of snapping me out of a trance. I would welcome these kind of changes.
• antonyh 5y ago
  Batched notifications: I'd love this. As it currently stands, most of my apps have lost permission to notify because they abuse it. I don't want to be constantly prodded and poked to interact, so there's very few that get it enabled now. That even includes email, and it's so much better. It's reduced screen time massively, and I mostly check email on desktop instead now with my phone as a secondary on-the-go way of communicating. Turning off autoplay, yes please. Greyscale, interesting idea. The rest of it, meh. I'm not so sure it would have any meaningful impact or that it wouldn't be replaced with other much darker patterns. Better user-centric control of notifications is what we really need to silence the cry for attention by the apps and would go a long way towards allieviating digital addiction in my opinion.
  • bengale 5y ago
    The majority of my apps are set to deliver quietly on iOS so they just go into my notification drawer without an alert.
    • antonyh 5y ago
      I killed them completely because they choke the drawer too. I don't know if I've set some option somewhere but they seem to linger forever, swiping them away doesn't stop them reappearing later. I'd rather have none than all my unreads keep notifying (I'm on iOS 14)
• yadaeno 5y ago
  If apple actually implemented these changes, I would ditch my current phone for an IPhone and never look back. I would also help make the switch for family members and anyone else I cared about.
• punnerud 5y ago
  This work for me on iOS: Keep all the blue apps (Twitter, Facebook, Kindle, LinkedIn..) in one folder. At least one time each week, switch the position between Kindle and Facebook. This way I will subconscious use Kindle a lot more.
  • Ivoah 5y ago
    very relevant xkcd: https://xkcd.com/2183/ https://xkcd.com/2183/
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• nicbou 5y ago
  I've been aggressively fighting these things for the last year. I tried to filter as much noise as possible, to make it easier to get away from the computer. No feeds, very few emails, very few notifications, and a lot less participation. Generally, it went well. However, I still wish I had a way to batch notifications. I don't need instant messages to be truly instant. I don't need emails to arrive more than once every hour.
  • hughcrt 5y ago
    One of the main new feature of iOS 15 is precisely what you’re talking about: https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/07/new-ios-15-notifications-redesigned/ https://www.macrumors.com/2021/06/07/new-ios-15-notification...
• cromwellian 5y ago
  Another option would be to ship a feature phone, or a feature phone mode. So you know, your $1000 device can only make calls like most of us used phones for 20 years ago. iOS 15 Humane - your phone is just a phone.
• malkosta 5y ago
  Is it possible to send a file via Bluetooth yet?
• subpixel 5y ago
  I’d love a setting that would turn Instagrams search page into an input field - nothing else. Every time I search I have to actively fight the temptation of food photos, bra-less dance videos, New Orleans architecture shots and whatever else the algorithm has learned will derail me.
• gigatexal 5y ago
  Doing any of this would set a precedent of Apple being able to change the functionality of an app and that is a precedent I don't want to see no matter how much I detest Facebook. Also this power would bring the anti-trust hammer down so hard. Apple doesn't want this. They're working on tools to help you use your phone and other hardware more fully but also giving you data on usage and such so people can make up their own minds.
• Grustaf 5y ago
  There are some nice ideas here, and perhaps some of them can even be realised by third party apps using the new Screen time developer APIs? I don't think the "Persuasive Design" ideas are realistic though, not in the AppStore listing.
• mensetmanusman 5y ago
  I think the largest effect would be a focus on what types of “”””news”””” someone as being exposed to. For example, my experience with Facebook emotionally plummeted after they added the news tab on the right hand side. I don’t know what the current status is, because I basically stopped using Facebook because I couldn’t help getting pulled into the emotional nonsense of the conflicts that were being artificially portrayed. Replace news articles with interesting historical or natural wonders on Wikipedia, and I think that would slowly force media organizations to stop relying on conflict and anger to generate revenue. to;dr the internet should default towards eliciting senses of wonder for the user instead of senses of conflict.
• eloisius 5y ago
  If I could ask Apple for one thing it would be to require approval of every push notification that an app developer wants to deliver. That an app gets either cart blanche to send me notifications or nothing at all drives me crazy. I don't want to miss a notification that my delivery food arrived, but I don't want to be bombarded with daily advertising messages from foodpanda trying to get me to change my behavior. Require app developers to submit a template string (and not "\(message)") for each notification the app can deliver for approval in the App Store and let me have an on/off switch for each one. "Notifications" across every platform drive me crazy, because they usually start out as useful, but because people tend to pay them more attention than all the other channels that have already been tuned out, companies start juicing them for engagement. I use twitter rarely, but every time I do I am perplexed why my "notifications" are full of crap about who recently tweeted. Shouldn't that just be in my timeline?
  • bengale 5y ago
    Something really should be done about this. The food delivery apps are worst for this, they seem to know you can't turn alerts off without losing a key feature, but then use it to advertise. They should be made to split this out so you can turn one off without the other. I'd love to customise the alert level for news apps. I would leave on actually important breaking news, but I have to turn it all off because they bombard me with worthless stuff. I want to know if the PMs head explodes, but I really don't care which royal has had another baby.
    • eloisius 5y ago
      Agreed. It seems short-sighted of Apple to let notifications become an advertising channel. It works against their customers. A start could be requiring developers to categorize their notifications as transactional or advertising, but I'd really like the granularity to switch certain types of notifications on and off from the Settings app, or on the "manage" menu of the notification itself have the option to not get notifications like this one anymore.
    • latch 5y ago
      > The food delivery apps are worst for this My bank, which is otherwise great, does this. Critically important push notifications and a pretty steady stream of meaningless advertisement.
• ospohngellert 5y ago
  I actually really like apple's screen time limit capabilities. Being able to limit my time on twitch/youtube has been really helpful for me. However, one thing I would like to see is limiting the number of times I can open an app. Even if I limit email to 3 minutes, I can still open it 15 times a day :D
• kajaktum 5y ago
  That means we need to stop using ((((free))))) services and start paying for them. Unless its literal charity, I have no reason to believe that any of these free company isn't trying to manipulating me in some other ways. One of these is Youtube. Hosting petabytes of on-demand videos is an extremely daunting feat. Why are you surprised that you are hit with ads? What were they supposed to do? For whatever reason, no one wants to pay for premium to remove these ads. Instead, we just have this back and forth with people coming up with extensions and Google coming up with ways to circumvent these. Both sides are going to get crazier if this goes on.
• pdimitar 5y ago
  The problem with several of these is that most humans are in denial. - They will absolutely yell at their phone "YES, THIS TIME WAS WELL-SPENT!" even after an absolutely soul-crushing political "discussion" session that can only be equated to a real-life screaming contest with a bunch of others. And even with them feeling emotionally drained, angry and tired, they'll still say the time was well-spent. You know, sunk cost fallacy and all. The "maximum engagement" industry knows all these phenomena very well and they have weaponized them at least a decade ago, if not more. - "Finite" feeds. They are still infinite but now have page numbers. Sure that might help a little but but I don't think it will make an impact. Plus "Page #7" means nothing; after 10-20 posts from people in your feed it moves to "Page #8" so what's the point? - Disabling Autoplay is related to the first one -- people are in denial. They'll just nervously tap on the play button. Almost nothing at all will change. - Hiding certain sections like "Watch Now" is NEVER going to happen. Don't be delusional. That's the way the companies want to further engage you. They'll stop literally everything else before that. - Greyscale is a cool idea. Didn't know about the reduced engagement with it. I'll try it out! - Batched notifications are a good idea. Let's go even further: I want to fine-tune which notifications I can receive. I regularly need the notifications from my grocery app (when my wife makes changes to it) but I absolutely don't care about those "17 fantastic paleo meals for you to try today!", thank you very much. This has to stop. - Showing time spent might increase accountability, or it might not. I know it could have helped me 5 years ago but I also know quite a lot of people who scream at their friends "dude, I've been 10 hours on Twitter today, how cool is that!" so that one is likely to be a hit or miss. I can see how it could help some. - If you tell somebody that they are "mindlessly browsing" they'll uninstall your software the same minute. Don't. There has to be other ways. Even corny stuff like "are you happy how you spent the last hour?" would work better. --- I applaud Apple's efforts but as usual, they are waaaaaaaaay too slow and too gradual. The axe has to fall harder and quicker. Just an example. Open App Store on your iPhone. Just two days ago I had the same dumb "Gaming Essentials" section there that seems to appear fairly regularly, containing big earners like Fortnite, CoD, Candy Crush and several others. Of course Apple wants people to pick up these on a regular basis -- microtransactions lead to income for them as well.
  • needle0 5y ago
    "Hiding certain sections like "Watch Now" is NEVER going to happen. Don't be delusional." It's already available: https://www.howtogeek.com/509468/how-to-remove-icons-from-the-facebook-apps-shortcut-bar/ https://www.howtogeek.com/509468/how-to-remove-icons-from-th...
• nomoreplease 5y ago
  The metrics of "How long did users spend on this app on average" and "Did they think this was time well spent?" is a brilliant idea
• smoldesu 5y ago
  Why would Apple do any of this? Their ultimate goal is to drive user engagement and increase revenue, which is interrupted when they have to remind users to stop using their platform.
  • th0rgall 5y ago
    That sounds more like the ultimate goal of Facebook and Twitter. In contrast, Apple's ultimate goal is to sell more devices and get more people onto their subscription services. The ideas mentioned in the article don't collide with this goal. They are intended to provide more (not less) value to the lives of Apple's customers. To help you when you yourself recognize you're engaging too much, or in a bad way. They seem to be configurable to the customer's preferences too. If you wouldn't want these features, fine, but others might want them, and prefer Apple's products over e.g. Android phones because of having the option. The only party who could be displeased with these system interventions are the big ad-based app or platform developers that do rely on user engagement. Update: Apple has some shared incentives with engagement-based business models, like their revenue stream of App Store (in-)app purchase commissions, but it's still much less than Google/Facebook/Twitter's reliance on that stuff.
• lanevorockz 5y ago
  You are a fool if you don't think that all of Big Tech is not some form of cattle control. They control what you can see, what you can express and what do you do outside of the platform.
  • xpe 5y ago
    I'm on a mission here on HN to encourage people to write clearly, with specificity, and without exaggeration. In that spirit, let me show how I would edit the comment above. Here are the parts I would modify (i.e. change X -> Y) 1. "You are a fool" -> leave it out. Think about your audience; this phrase is unlikely to persuade. 2. "Big Tech" -> Social Media (e.g. not AWS or Fastly) 3. "They control" -> "They constrain/frame" 4. "what you can see" -> "what you see first / what is recommended" 5. "control" ... "what you can express" -> "your content on their platform" 6. "control" ... "what do you do outside of the platform" -> [delete] I would also contrast multinational information / social media technologies with the underlying tools that allow governments to monitor and shape people's activity; e.g. firewalls, packet inspection, etc.
• paul7986 5y ago
  I wish like the flashlight i could toggle on and off "Silence All Unknown Callers," which for me I leave on always. There are times when I need to have a call come in and have to drill down into the settings to get to it. Also, I'd love to be able to wake up using the built in alarm to a Internet URL (radio station, podcast, whatever).
• m3kw9 5y ago
  Unless those lock outs are non-reversible lockouts, people will get around it. And if they find themselves doing that, they won’t even bother to turn it on next time, just like Apples Screen time. The locks must be strict, but even that may drive people to get another phone, or just use their PC instead. People need to be taught the value of their time and realize those moments when they are actually viewing past a certain point. Teach a person to fish.
• m3kw9 5y ago
  These methods remind me of cruel methods where you tie up a drug addict to stop them from taking drugs, it may work for a while but the underlying problems will likely reel them back in.
• irae 5y ago
  The article has a few brilliant ideas, for sure. In particular asking if the time was well spent. This can be truly valuable and it makes sense inside the "screen time" feature apple already provides. Including the score in the app store could be a good idea, specially if sharing your "well spent" opinion is opt-in and only local on the device by default. On the other hand, Apple is not and should not be punishing anything for being persuasive or any other subjective measure, and should not ever have a method of punishing anymore financially. Any rules to tax or otherwise punish based on opinion can also be used as censorship, and not company should go there. Yes, it is Apples interest to help us manage our preferences with ease. This is providing a good service. It is not Apples duty or right to impose a view/opinion on its users, neither is their role to be our savior or bastion on the mess the internet is becoming.
• th0rgall 5y ago
  I really like the ideation here (and in the HN comments!). They're not the first to come up with most of these ideas though, the Nudge extension (https://nudgeware.io/ https://nudgeware.io/) already has nudges against infinite scroll & other interventions for Twitter/Facebook/, and there are plenty of "app blocker" apps out there (for App Conditions). Still, I liked to see concrete designs on how Apple could make improvements that only they have the power to implement: the persuasive design settings, the Time Well Spent/Regret Tax. But the problem is broader and more systemic than Apple can address I'm afraid. "persuasive design" is a direct result of ad-based attention-seeking business models. We need purposeful social apps like https://readup.com https://readup.com or Strava, whose business model incentives are directly aligned with our wellbeing. I'm spending 4-10 hours reading on Readup weekly, and I invariably consider that Time Well Spent (https://readup.com/@thorgalle https://readup.com/@thorgalle).
• ______- 5y ago
  Phones for me were always for consuming content, and I rarely 'created' anything with them. For creation I would use a standard desktop PC with Ubuntu and code to my heart's content. If you want a 'bicycle for the mind' then you would not use a handheld device. You would use a desktop PC (either a laptop or tower PC, or whatever).
• chadlavi 5y ago
  This is a joke, right?
• bhupy 5y ago
  I like this idea a lot, but I’m no longer sure that the stated premise holds true: “Its business is not built around ads.” https://twitter.com/modestproposal1/status/1385194469222408193 https://twitter.com/modestproposal1/status/13851944692224081...
• josiahpeters 5y ago
  This is somewhat off topic. I have read through other people's comments about good and bad experiences with push notifications on Apple and Android. People use them as Todo lists and for a number of things. For something so critical, why has Apple or Google not created a push notification log on your device? Some of us live by our notifications and the fact that I accidentally swiped an important notification away or I thought I saw a slack notification come through but couldn't find it gives me anxiety. As important as push is to our daily lives, you would think there would be more innovation in managing these notifications.
  • patrickserrano 5y ago
    I'm surprised this isn't more of a thing. From what I understand this is coming to Android 11 though https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/03/20/android-11-tweaks-hidden-notification-tools-new-log-layout-and-history-activity/ https://www.androidpolice.com/2020/03/20/android-11-tweaks-h...
  • strogonoff 5y ago
    One of the effects of a truly feature-complete notification center would be that messenger/social media user may lose any incentive to open that app. Which I personally would be fine with; but which goes somewhat counter to the currently-mainstream model of “free” ad-supported social media and messaging platforms. This ties into my long-standing argument that we should normalize paid social. We should be allowed to pay a fee just for the pipe. A paid platform would be incentivized to provide its users with all the flexibility, APIs and integrations, including third-party GUIs such as OS’s built-in notification center.
• mark_l_watson 5y ago
  Excellent ideas. I use Freedom to limit my use of social media to specific times of day, which is a good start. I especially liked the idea of promoting people if they seem to be browsing aimlessly.
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• api 5y ago
  Apple is the only company I can imagine doing this. They're really the only remaining PC company where a PC is defined as a computer designed to serve and assist its customer/user instead of treat the customer as the product.
• whywhywhywhy 5y ago
  I've honestly grown to hate my iPhone. It hit me during a particularly stressful work period about a year ago that this device doesn't bring any happiness to my life and only brings anxiety, stress and saps my energy like a parasite. Once that stressful period was over the feeling didn't go away though and now I can't even get rid of it because all my friends use apps to communicate rather than SMS so it's either I allow this parasite in my life or I just go disconnect almost completely. and I don't think what I'm saying is ridiculous and I think Apple knows its bad otherwise they wouldn't be creating things like screentime tracking and focus modes.
  • kaba0 5y ago
    May I ask you what are you doing on your iPhone that you consider unhealthy?
    • whywhywhywhy 5y ago
      Twitter and Instagram are both awful for mental health as are notifications.
• fudged71 5y ago
  iOS 15 is already doing some great things for ADHD. These recommendations look even better!
• welfvh 5y ago
  OP and co-founder of Potential here, AMA!
• deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
• SavantIdiot 5y ago
  This is an aspect of a very important movement that started with Calm Technology. Think it will be the next step in gaining control of the genie from the bottle. [1] https://calmtech.com/ https://calmtech.com/ [2] https://www.amazon.com/Calm-Technology-Principles-Patterns-Non-Intrusive/dp/1491925884 https://www.amazon.com/Calm-Technology-Principles-Patterns-N...
• andymatuschak 5y ago
  These are very interesting ideas. But I’d like to see to see credit given where it’s due. Many of the specific interface concepts here (retrospectively monitoring whether time was well spent, disabling infinite feeds, a regret tax, batching notification delivery, switching an infinite feed to a paged one which reflects activity) were presented several years ago by Joe Edelman and Tristan Harris. See eg https://medium.com/thrive-global/how-technology-hijacks-peoples-minds-from-a-magician-and-google-s-design-ethicist-56d62ef5edf3 https://medium.com/thrive-global/how-technology-hijacks-peop... and https://medium.com/what-to-build/is-anything-worth-maximizing-d11e648eb56f https://medium.com/what-to-build/is-anything-worth-maximizin... Ideas like these are public goods, so it’s difficult to profit off inventing them. Given that, we should incentivize their creation with social rewards by crediting their authors.
• seanhunter 5y ago
  Some of these suggestions seem great, this "time well spent" popup would be infuriating in use. As is, I hate the way apps, websites and others bombard me with constant requests for reviews, feedback, ratings etc. When I use my coffee grinder it doesn't ask how I liked my grind (thumbs up/thumbs down/Marks out of 5/rating from "Absolutely satisfied" to "terminal ennui"). I press the button and it grings coffee exactly how I ask it to every time. I want other things to be the same. Just do the thing and stop wasting my time being so needy just because you want to feel good about your analytics.
• natedubyah 5y ago
  Im interested to know if the preliminary thoughts of these new ios features were at any all influenced by the pandemic, theres a-lot of stuff that would have been really cool during that time that is now rolling out.
• jonathan_garner 5y ago
  Developing tools and methods like this to be more intentional with our tech is so important, whether that's digital solutions like a humane iOS, or building our own set of intentional habits to put us in control. I found this great analogue toolkit to help start doing this right now, no tech required https://www.mindovertech.com/digital-habit-lab/ https://www.mindovertech.com/digital-habit-lab/
• EGreg 5y ago
  We have been working to make this happen. Read the items under "Our Philosophy" and "Our Mission" here: https://qbix.com/people https://qbix.com/people But there has to be a completely different kind of company and ethos behind this technology, if we are going to have an impact on the world. We need open source, we need massive network effects. And we need a new economic model for the web, that will be ENFORCED. Would love some feedback from anyone who reads it: https://qbix.com/QBUX/whitepaper.html#Decentralizing-the-Marketplace https://qbix.com/QBUX/whitepaper.html#Decentralizing-the-Mar... PS: I am just going to copypaste our philosophy and mission below Our Philosophy The internet has given us opportunities to connect with one another like never before. Yet, most sites we use today have barely tapped that potential. We believe in the power of well-designed tools to improve people's lives and bring about positive social change. They are characterized by five main aspects: Time: Instead of priding ourselves on how much time people spend in our apps, we want people to get in, get out, and get results. Utility: Help people get things done in the real world, rather than building an online persona. Notifications: Let people control which updates they receive about things happening in their life, instead of getting them addicted to notifications like a slot machine. Organic: In every context, pre-compute useful information and present it to the user, enabling them to do more in less steps. Business Model: Make money by helping people accomplish useful things as a group, not just by selling advertising. Our Mission Why do we all have to rely on giant corporations mediate our interactions, and trust them with our data, identity and brand? Qbix works to put power back in the hands of the people. And we don't just talk about it , we are building it! In order for people to switch, the alternative must be as good as what they're using now. Qbix Platform: We've developed a social operating system for the Web, that puts power back in the hands of people, communities and social app developers. It is part of a movement to decentralize the Web, moving it from Feudalism to a Free Market of reusable components that anyone can use. Qbix Browser: We've working on releasing social web browser where you can share and discuss all kinds of web pages with friends, from events to restaurants to news. You'll be able to search all your browsing history and chats quickly, manage your contacts, and be more productive. And you can do it all privately, using your personal address book and encrypted communication. QBUX Token: Monetizing open source software and digital content on the web is a challenging problem. We are working to solve it by leveraging the network effects we are building up with our growing user base. Qbix can help usher in a new era of collaboration and micropayments on the Web.
• overgard 5y ago
  I feel like the people that need these changes are the least likely to turn then on. In general addicts don't want to dilute their drug of choice.
• heroHACK17 5y ago
  I am really impressed by the ideas here. I read the whole thing from top to bottom (rare) and I was shaking my head yes the whole time. Bravo. I hope Apple implements all of this.
• drdd 5y ago
  That time will come, where you will have a fully AI-integrated phone that can be your secondary optional brain for everything you want to do on your life, not limiting a person but expanding their horizon. After all its only natural to fill those emotions.
• munk-a 5y ago
  Gosh I wish I had access to this exciting new update - unfortunately I own an offbrand iPad made by this knock-off company called Apple. As such it's locked to only be able to run iOS 10 and lower. I know I made a bad decision purchasing from a hardware company while wishing the software company would support me in perpetuity but I was hopeful the developers behind iOS would actually offer to roll out updates to we Apple customers in addition to their own large customer base. Next time I buy an iDevice I'll be sure to seek out an iOS approved vendor for my purchase instead of just grabbing one of these rando-Apple devices off the street. (/s if it's needed)
• jbaviat 5y ago
  This reminds me a lot about the goals behind the center for humane technology, and their amazing podcast https://www.humanetech.com/ https://www.humanetech.com/. They also are the ones behind the Netflix documentary « the social dilemma ».
• needle0 5y ago
  "There could even be an option to hide the most distracting parts of an app, like Facebooks video tab" The iPhone Facebook app DOES currently let you hide certain icons in the shortcut bar, including the Watch, Events, Groups, Profile, and Marketplace sections. https://www.howtogeek.com/509468/how-to-remove-icons-from-the-facebook-apps-shortcut-bar/ https://www.howtogeek.com/509468/how-to-remove-icons-from-th...
• basmith 5y ago
  As someone who has been on Android my entire life, an update like this would make me switch quite easily.
• HeavyStorm 5y ago
  More like iOS 15 Dictatorship While the ideas proposed are good, Apple already exerts a lot of power over developers. I don't think more policies would help us. Maybe API that would allow some of those restrictions to be implemented by 3rd parties would be a good idea.