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It's been said of graphene that it is excellent for everything except industrial application. I've been making this joke for ten years now, it's truly the gift

It's been said of graphene that it is excellent for everything except industrial application. I've been making this joke for ten years now, it's truly the gift that keeps on giving. I doubt I have a single graphene-enhanced product in my home. Maybe one of these days...

mkingston 5y ago
Whether this is a gimmick or not I cannot tell you. https://www.inov-8.com/g-series https://www.inov-8.com/g-series
- murphyslab 5y ago
  The "graphene" probably does add some modest mechanical and perhaps thermal properties to the foam of the shoe. There are plenty of papers and I'd suggest that you search Google Scholar and Google Patents for 'graphene rubber composites'; you'll be overwhelmed with examples. However when discussing "graphene" it's helpful to differentiate between different types of two dimensional carbon lattices based on size and mode of manufacture.[0] There are two broad categories when we're talking about manufacturing applications at present: The graphene in those runners is probably an exfoliated graphene micro/nanoplatelets made form graphite microparticles (previously an in-demand commodity for Li-ion battery anodes). The process used, given the industrial scale required, is most likely a chemical oxidation/reduction process (kind of messy), electrochemical means, or intercalation. The end result is more like confetti or the bits of paper left over from the hole-punch. This isn't your high-quality, electronic grade graphene, however most of the mechanical, thermal, optical, and electrical properties of graphene remain, and this graphene confetti can be blended into composites for the sake of those mechanical properties or to provide thermal or electrical conductivity. Any company can blend a bit of graphene into their rubber or plastic and have the product given that sciency sheen. But you really want that graphene to be firmly embedded, since there are potential safety issues _in vivo_ [1]; Health Canada issued a recall alert for graphene-containing face masks in April, due to the possible risk of inhalation. [2] The electronic grade graphene is generally larger in those two dimensions and presenting fewer defects — a full sheet of paper compared to the confetti type. For early experimentalists, the best source was also through exfoliation, albeit using Scotch tape to peel layers off of a large (1 cm or more in lateral dimensions) single crystal of graphite. Nowadays, epitaxial growth (i.e. grow one crystal using a different crystal as the template) is preferred, as it can be mass-produced, even using roll-to-roll techniques. That graphene can also be more readily transferred from one substrate to another, which is necessary since you are going to want your sheet of graphene laying on an insulating surface, rather than the metal on which it was epitaxially grown. There are several other flavours of "graphene" — nanoribbon, oxide, fluorinated, multilayer, ligated, crumpled, charged, patterned, etc... But the two most consequential categories to keep in mind are whether you are dealing with "confetti" or "sheets". The nanoplatelet confetti can get inside you if not thoroughly immobilised. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_production_techniques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_production_techniques [1]: ACS Nano 2018: https://doi.org/10.1021/acsnano.8b04758 https://doi.org/10.1021/acsnano.8b04758 [2]: https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-sc/2021/75309a-eng.php https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-s...
Veedrac 5y ago
This sort of cynicism really grinds my gears. Graphene was first isolated and charaterized in 2004, using Scotch tape to pull samples off bulk graphite. If you were surprised in 2011 that graphene was not already a household staple, that's 100% on you. It takes time to figure out applications, it takes time to mature them, and it takes time to figure out affordable, high quality, bulk production methods, and if the latter was easy it wouldn't be a material we first characterized in 2004.
- znpy 5y ago
  I really appreciated your composure in not calling GP an idiot. I'm not sure I would have managed to be been so kind.
- PudgePacket 5y ago
  Can you blame people for getting fatigued from this kind of news? (Also it's been 16 years ;) ) Every 6 months there is a new use of graphene that promises 10x something, new cancer treatment that is revolutionary, new AI that can solve the worlds hardest problems ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf
  - ProblemFactory 5y ago
    It's understandable. Science journalism exaggerates results, even if the original researchers and their paper did not. And even the most promising scientific results can take decades to be applied in the industry and become available to consumers. But at the same time, this is Hacker News, not Mature Consumer Product News. Here is the best place to discuss what tech in 2030 might look like, not what we can buy today.
    - lumberingjack 5y ago
      That's because journalists have zero morals now and nobody holds them accountable most of the graphene stories I read are complete bullshit
Zenst 5y ago
> Maybe one of these days... The grapheme flying car will happen....one day... https://phys.org/news/2019-12-graphene-composites-planes-cars.html https://phys.org/news/2019-12-graphene-composites-planes-car...
- failwhaleshark 5y ago
  Oh lol, I didn't see this when contrasting graphene fabrication with the Moller Skycar. Flying cars, a trope from the 60's, are already here in small numbers. The issue is it's unworkable: 1. Who wants random non-pilots flying over their homes when most people can't even drive on the ground? 2. Where are the runways / liftoff points going to be? 3. How loud will they be? 4. The energy required (and cost) is far higher than for ground transportation. Does this make any sense in the face of climate change?
  - andrekandre 5y ago
    all good points i always imagined if flying cars were a common thing we would need iron umbrellas to be safe from all the metal rain of falling parts from all the mid-air collisions every day...
- CRConrad 5y ago
  The first article linked under "Related Stories" at the bottom of that article again illustrates the hype about graphene. From https://phys.org/news/2016-11-graphene-coated-motorcycle-helmet.html https://phys.org/news/2016-11-graphene-coated-motorcycle-hel... : > By coating graphene onto the exterior shell of the helmet, the result is a helmet with improved thermal comfort and safety. The graphene coating allows better distribution of impact force, making the helmet less susceptible to damage compared to helmets without graphene, even in high temperature conditions. It is the excellent thermal conducive properties of the graphene coating which dissipates heat quickly across the helmet and not only protects the inner materials from degradation caused by heat, but also provides a more comfortable user experience. [(De-)emphases added -- CRC] So which is it: Can a mere coating somehow affect "distribution of impact force" -- which one would think is done by the actual structure of a helmet, not a surface coating? Or does it actually do this just indirectly, by "protect[ing] the inner materials from degradation caused by heat"? It feels very much like what actually provides the safety in this helmet is still good old glass or carbon fiber, and the graphene is more or less incidental. Just like the headline of TFA here should probably have been something like "Graphene lubricant helps HMR achieve 10 x data density".
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
I thought that the difficult part was mass producing defect-free strands of arbitrary length.
dannyw 5y ago
My GPU uses graphene based lubricant on the fans to extend its spinning life!
- gambiting 5y ago
  Are you sure it's graphene, not graphite? Graphite grease in fans is pretty common, been used for ages.
easygenes 5y ago
Some of the latest lithium batteries are enhanced with graphene. Case in point: https://www.dinogylipos.com/pages/graphene https://www.dinogylipos.com/pages/graphene These are some of the best cells on the market for high current demand: https://www.drone-zone.de/battery-review-dinogy-platinum-graphene-2-0-4s-1300-mah-130-c-v2-0/ https://www.drone-zone.de/battery-review-dinogy-platinum-gra...
failwhaleshark 5y ago
Oh c'mon, graphene solidifies vaporware, cleans your dishes, and does the laundry too. We just need a large-scale monocrystaline CVD graphene generator... where's my magic wand?
michelb 5y ago
This is from the same lab that has the 'breakthrough' battery technologies over the past 20 years :)
- sp332 5y ago
  They've been delivering on that reasonably well I think. https://news.mit.edu/2021/lithium-ion-battery-costs-0323 https://news.mit.edu/2021/lithium-ion-battery-costs-0323
  - rsj_hn 5y ago
    You can find the same curve for most per unit costs when manufacturing scales. No one is doubting decreasing average costs, but similarly no one considers that a breakthrough. A breakthrough is something like an 10x energy/weight ratio, which really does require new chemistry rather than economies of scale or marginal improvements in weight savings that come from more efficient cooling or lighter housing systems. So the solid state batteries that are being developed now would be an example of a true breakthrough. Cheaper batteries in response to a surge in market demand are not.
xtracto 5y ago
We should do a bet on what will come first: A real world graphene application or one of the many "cancer cures" that appear every other week.
- sp332 5y ago
  We have several cures for cancers. We even have a vaccine that reduces your cancer risk (it targets HPV, and HPV causes some cancers).
zhdc1 5y ago
I think some of the newer smartphone chargers use graphene. It also looks like some lithium batteries that use graphene are starting to hit the market.
- ksec 5y ago
  >I think some of the newer smartphone chargers use graphene. The G in GaN used in new chargers are Gallium nitride.
caycep 5y ago
my bicycle tires, apparently...at least they are heavily marketed for having some (not sure how much really) in them...
Accujack 5y ago
There's a decent chance you do and don't know it. A certain type of super capacitor is built with graphene, so you may have electronic devices with graphene in them.
s0rce 5y ago
You can buy graphene enhanced shoes [1], not really sure its much better than carbon black but it sounds cooler. I generally agree with you, from nanotubes to graphene no one can seem to really make it into anything. Cool physics though. [1] https://www.inov-8.com/us/graphene-grip https://www.inov-8.com/us/graphene-grip
AtlasBarfed 5y ago
That's a good joke, cynicism aside. What I think is significant here is that a massive industry has a clear use case for it, and it's an industry that is fighting for its life with respect to SSDs. A 10x capacity jump might justify an initial investment as well, especially if the durability is a huge improvement. Economics of cloud datacenters may bridge the divide. Also, I'd posit that that graphene doesn't need to be a perfect uniform surface for the HDD platter. If they can just get usable sections (ahem, sectors?) then it becomes workable and usable.

mkingston 5y ago

Whether this is a gimmick or not I cannot tell you. https://www.inov-8.com/g-series https://www.inov-8.com/g-series

murphyslab 5y ago
The "graphene" probably does add some modest mechanical and perhaps thermal properties to the foam of the shoe. There are plenty of papers and I'd suggest that you search Google Scholar and Google Patents for 'graphene rubber composites'; you'll be overwhelmed with examples. However when discussing "graphene" it's helpful to differentiate between different types of two dimensional carbon lattices based on size and mode of manufacture.[0] There are two broad categories when we're talking about manufacturing applications at present: The graphene in those runners is probably an exfoliated graphene micro/nanoplatelets made form graphite microparticles (previously an in-demand commodity for Li-ion battery anodes). The process used, given the industrial scale required, is most likely a chemical oxidation/reduction process (kind of messy), electrochemical means, or intercalation. The end result is more like confetti or the bits of paper left over from the hole-punch. This isn't your high-quality, electronic grade graphene, however most of the mechanical, thermal, optical, and electrical properties of graphene remain, and this graphene confetti can be blended into composites for the sake of those mechanical properties or to provide thermal or electrical conductivity. Any company can blend a bit of graphene into their rubber or plastic and have the product given that sciency sheen. But you really want that graphene to be firmly embedded, since there are potential safety issues _in vivo_ [1]; Health Canada issued a recall alert for graphene-containing face masks in April, due to the possible risk of inhalation. [2] The electronic grade graphene is generally larger in those two dimensions and presenting fewer defects — a full sheet of paper compared to the confetti type. For early experimentalists, the best source was also through exfoliation, albeit using Scotch tape to peel layers off of a large (1 cm or more in lateral dimensions) single crystal of graphite. Nowadays, epitaxial growth (i.e. grow one crystal using a different crystal as the template) is preferred, as it can be mass-produced, even using roll-to-roll techniques. That graphene can also be more readily transferred from one substrate to another, which is necessary since you are going to want your sheet of graphene laying on an insulating surface, rather than the metal on which it was epitaxially grown. There are several other flavours of "graphene" — nanoribbon, oxide, fluorinated, multilayer, ligated, crumpled, charged, patterned, etc... But the two most consequential categories to keep in mind are whether you are dealing with "confetti" or "sheets". The nanoplatelet confetti can get inside you if not thoroughly immobilised. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_production_techniques https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphene_production_techniques [1]: ACS Nano 2018: https://doi.org/10.1021/acsnano.8b04758 https://doi.org/10.1021/acsnano.8b04758 [2]: https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-sc/2021/75309a-eng.php https://healthycanadians.gc.ca/recall-alert-rappel-avis/hc-s...

Veedrac 5y ago

This sort of cynicism really grinds my gears. Graphene was first isolated and charaterized in 2004, using Scotch tape to pull samples off bulk graphite. If you were surprised in 2011 that graphene was not already a household staple, that's 100% on you. It takes time to figure out applications, it takes time to mature them, and it takes time to figure out affordable, high quality, bulk production methods, and if the latter was easy it wouldn't be a material we first characterized in 2004.

znpy 5y ago
I really appreciated your composure in not calling GP an idiot. I'm not sure I would have managed to be been so kind.
PudgePacket 5y ago
Can you blame people for getting fatigued from this kind of news? (Also it's been 16 years ;) ) Every 6 months there is a new use of graphene that promises 10x something, new cancer treatment that is revolutionary, new AI that can solve the worlds hardest problems ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Boy_Who_Cried_Wolf
- ProblemFactory 5y ago
  It's understandable. Science journalism exaggerates results, even if the original researchers and their paper did not. And even the most promising scientific results can take decades to be applied in the industry and become available to consumers. But at the same time, this is Hacker News, not Mature Consumer Product News. Here is the best place to discuss what tech in 2030 might look like, not what we can buy today.
  - lumberingjack 5y ago
    That's because journalists have zero morals now and nobody holds them accountable most of the graphene stories I read are complete bullshit

Zenst 5y ago

> Maybe one of these days... The grapheme flying car will happen....one day... https://phys.org/news/2019-12-graphene-composites-planes-cars.html https://phys.org/news/2019-12-graphene-composites-planes-car...

failwhaleshark 5y ago
Oh lol, I didn't see this when contrasting graphene fabrication with the Moller Skycar. Flying cars, a trope from the 60's, are already here in small numbers. The issue is it's unworkable: 1. Who wants random non-pilots flying over their homes when most people can't even drive on the ground? 2. Where are the runways / liftoff points going to be? 3. How loud will they be? 4. The energy required (and cost) is far higher than for ground transportation. Does this make any sense in the face of climate change?
- andrekandre 5y ago
  all good points i always imagined if flying cars were a common thing we would need iron umbrellas to be safe from all the metal rain of falling parts from all the mid-air collisions every day...
CRConrad 5y ago
The first article linked under "Related Stories" at the bottom of that article again illustrates the hype about graphene. From https://phys.org/news/2016-11-graphene-coated-motorcycle-helmet.html https://phys.org/news/2016-11-graphene-coated-motorcycle-hel... : > By coating graphene onto the exterior shell of the helmet, the result is a helmet with improved thermal comfort and safety. The graphene coating allows better distribution of impact force, making the helmet less susceptible to damage compared to helmets without graphene, even in high temperature conditions. It is the excellent thermal conducive properties of the graphene coating which dissipates heat quickly across the helmet and not only protects the inner materials from degradation caused by heat, but also provides a more comfortable user experience. [(De-)emphases added -- CRC] So which is it: Can a mere coating somehow affect "distribution of impact force" -- which one would think is done by the actual structure of a helmet, not a surface coating? Or does it actually do this just indirectly, by "protect[ing] the inner materials from degradation caused by heat"? It feels very much like what actually provides the safety in this helmet is still good old glass or carbon fiber, and the graphene is more or less incidental. Just like the headline of TFA here should probably have been something like "Graphene lubricant helps HMR achieve 10 x data density".

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

I thought that the difficult part was mass producing defect-free strands of arbitrary length.

dannyw 5y ago

My GPU uses graphene based lubricant on the fans to extend its spinning life!

gambiting 5y ago
Are you sure it's graphene, not graphite? Graphite grease in fans is pretty common, been used for ages.

easygenes 5y ago

Some of the latest lithium batteries are enhanced with graphene. Case in point: https://www.dinogylipos.com/pages/graphene https://www.dinogylipos.com/pages/graphene These are some of the best cells on the market for high current demand: https://www.drone-zone.de/battery-review-dinogy-platinum-graphene-2-0-4s-1300-mah-130-c-v2-0/ https://www.drone-zone.de/battery-review-dinogy-platinum-gra...

failwhaleshark 5y ago

Oh c'mon, graphene solidifies vaporware, cleans your dishes, and does the laundry too. We just need a large-scale monocrystaline CVD graphene generator... where's my magic wand?

michelb 5y ago

This is from the same lab that has the 'breakthrough' battery technologies over the past 20 years :)

sp332 5y ago
They've been delivering on that reasonably well I think. https://news.mit.edu/2021/lithium-ion-battery-costs-0323 https://news.mit.edu/2021/lithium-ion-battery-costs-0323
- rsj_hn 5y ago
  You can find the same curve for most per unit costs when manufacturing scales. No one is doubting decreasing average costs, but similarly no one considers that a breakthrough. A breakthrough is something like an 10x energy/weight ratio, which really does require new chemistry rather than economies of scale or marginal improvements in weight savings that come from more efficient cooling or lighter housing systems. So the solid state batteries that are being developed now would be an example of a true breakthrough. Cheaper batteries in response to a surge in market demand are not.

xtracto 5y ago

We should do a bet on what will come first: A real world graphene application or one of the many "cancer cures" that appear every other week.

sp332 5y ago
We have several cures for cancers. We even have a vaccine that reduces your cancer risk (it targets HPV, and HPV causes some cancers).

zhdc1 5y ago

I think some of the newer smartphone chargers use graphene. It also looks like some lithium batteries that use graphene are starting to hit the market.

ksec 5y ago
>I think some of the newer smartphone chargers use graphene. The G in GaN used in new chargers are Gallium nitride.

caycep 5y ago

my bicycle tires, apparently...at least they are heavily marketed for having some (not sure how much really) in them...

Accujack 5y ago

There's a decent chance you do and don't know it. A certain type of super capacitor is built with graphene, so you may have electronic devices with graphene in them.

s0rce 5y ago

You can buy graphene enhanced shoes [1], not really sure its much better than carbon black but it sounds cooler. I generally agree with you, from nanotubes to graphene no one can seem to really make it into anything. Cool physics though. [1] https://www.inov-8.com/us/graphene-grip https://www.inov-8.com/us/graphene-grip

AtlasBarfed 5y ago

That's a good joke, cynicism aside. What I think is significant here is that a massive industry has a clear use case for it, and it's an industry that is fighting for its life with respect to SSDs. A 10x capacity jump might justify an initial investment as well, especially if the durability is a huge improvement. Economics of cloud datacenters may bridge the divide. Also, I'd posit that that graphene doesn't need to be a perfect uniform surface for the HDD platter. If they can just get usable sections (ahem, sectors?) then it becomes workable and usable.