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Article doesn't mention it, but this is how you opt-out (there are others but this one has screenshots). https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sid

Article doesn't mention it, but this is how you opt-out (there are others but this one has screenshots). https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk https://www.tomsguide.com/reference/what-is-amazon-sidewalk Added to my list for the next time I'm on the phone with my parents, for our (weekly at this point) how-to sessions on "stopping the industry I work in from spying on you". I really, really wish product managers would understand the kind of ecosystem they're building, and the kind of customer blow-back they will enable by optimizing for $$$ under the guise of "making things easier". Side question: what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? Bad connectivity experiences for Ring users? Edit: changed the link to a better guide linked elsewhere in the thread

philsnow 5y ago
> what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? Bad connectivity experiences for Ring users? I wrote my guess elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 tl;dr Amazon will resell access to Sidewalk to device manufacturers, allowing them to cost-effectively bridge the "telemetry gap".
- wearywanderer 5y ago
  No bones about it, this is Amazon's response to > If you don't want your smart tv to spy on you, then don't give it your wifi password.
  - teknopaul 5y ago
    How's does it stand legally stealing people's Internet connection and selling it to people who don't have the password.
    - prepend 5y ago
      Legally, every Amazon device user agreed to a TOS that lets Amazon do whatever they want and change at any time. So we’re kind of lucky they at least announced it as they could have just turned it on and opted everyone in.
    - Spivak 5y ago
      Point this logic at the Tile network or Apple’s FindMy network. Does it still work?
  - twoWhlsGud 5y ago
    "the street finds its own uses for things" (Gibson) is rapidly becoming "the wall street finds its own uses for things"
- stingrae 5y ago
  100% this. as a device maker, sidewalk is a potential game changer for low power connectivity and finally a path to lorawan finding wide spread adoption
  - Taniwha 5y ago
    except that, unlike ble, lora lives on bands that are not the same world wide - there is no region 3 ISM band - here in NZ the US ISM band is right in the middle of one of my cell phone company's bands
    - stingrae 5y ago
      this is true but in practice it's not a big deal. Companies don't usually do a single sku for the whole world especially with the certification requirements.
      - Taniwha 5y ago
        I (pre-covid) visit the US a lot and often bring stuff back. I'm used to turning off/switching the US-DECT/etc when required but in this case Amazon has snuck extra functionality into my home without my knowledge. Of course when the radio inspector comes knocking on my door because Amazon has loaded the wrong firmware into my box (without my knowledge) it's me who's breaking the law, not Amazon
        stingrae 5y ago
        this is already the case. certifications for 2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi have different requirements between the US and EU. Often in the EU companies have to lower the peak power.
  - duped 5y ago
    I don't like the idea of my neighbors piggybacking off my data and power hookups. Why aren't device manufactures figuring out how to make things that don't require something like sidewalk to exist? It's not that difficult to run cable and use power over ethernet.
criley2 5y ago
It's the same thing Apple is doing. They want every device to be a part of a low-power BLE network for Apple AirTags or Amazon Echo Tiles or whatever they are. They want a huge network so that these small low power devices can use everyones devices to connect to the internet. For what it's worth, the only way to Opt-Out from Apple's broad network like this is to disable all "Find My" network tracking, so you'll never be able to remote control your own phone using its standard radios if you wish to disable the tag network stuff.
- Scoundreller 5y ago
  To be honest, I find these ad hoc mobile mesh networks fascinating. With cheap flash, we could do a lot of high-latency high-bandwidth data transport with just existing movements. We could eliminate telecoms overnight but we just don’t have the organization to do it. Like, every house used to have a VHF/UHF receiving tower on it.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    A content “delivery” network running on human movements. Now that’d be an interesting routing problem.
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      Hah. Well, humans have easily predictable movement patterns right? Home, work, grocery store. Imagine wanting to move data from city A to city B, so they'd decide to do a Tinder match of a girl from City B to this guy from City A, so he'd visit her a lot and be the data conduit...
      - debo_ 5y ago
        This is a terrific idea for a short story.
        fapjacks 5y ago
nanidin 5y ago
Every time this Sidewalk concern style story crops up (which it has several times over the last 6-12 months), I have rechecked that Sidewalk is disabled. So far I have not found it set to anything except for disabled. I hope Amazon isn’t doing a gradual roll out to enable, as if I find it enabled at any point in the future, I am done with Amazon devices in my home. As far as I’m concerned based on Amazon Logistics performance in my area and the impact to the quality of other delivery carriers in my area, Amazon is not afraid to engage in a race to the bottom in the name of market share and profits. Opting me in to Sidewalk will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back and sends me to anyone else except for Amazon when shopping.
- remarkEon 5y ago
  I bought my mom an Echo for Christmas last year for the kitchen, since she likes making lists and setting timers for baking and her hands are starting to show their age (she’s 63, ‘bout that time I guess). Really grating that what was at one time a helpful device for older folks is now retroactively being turned into yet another internet surveillance device.
  - ryanianian 5y ago
    > retroactively being turned into yet another internet surveillance device. Oh, and an ad-delivery mechanism. Ask Alexa to set a timer, and sometimes she'll rebut with "while you wait why not try Amazon Music!" It's absolutely infuriating. I emailed jeff@amazon.com (VIP support team) and they confirmed it could not be disabled by normal means. They disabled it on their end but then had to do it again when somehow it got unset. The "start with the customer and work backward" mantra that used to be strong in the company is now completely ignored for Alexa it seems. The first domino has fallen. I suspect we'll see many more fall as a result.
    - prawn 5y ago
      I have never heard anything like an ad on my Echo. If I ask it to set a timer, it does, and then sounds the alarm x minutes later. Nothing else. If the kids ask it to play a song, it plays that song. If they ask it for an animal fact, they get one. Nothing else. Did I toggle something at setup?
deanCommie 5y ago
"extend the low-bandwidth working range of devices to help find pets or valuables with Tile trackers, and help devices stay online even if they are outside the range of their home wifi" Seems like a genuine customer problem. If you want to set up smart lights through your back yard, or a smart sensor at the edge of your driver, they might not have WiFi connectivity to the rest of your house. Hence the Sidewalk metaphor - a mesh network allows the devices to hop access from one another. There is also a pretty detailed Privacy/Security Whitepaper and it's important to point out this before any alarmist "Amazon is spying on you!" pearl clutching: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/G/01/sidewalk/final_privacy_security_whitepaper.pdf https://m.media-amazon.com/images/G/01/sidewalk/final_privac...
- hermitdev 5y ago
  > Seems like a genuine customer problem. If you want to set up smart lights through your back yard, or a smart sensor at the edge of your driver, they might not have WiFi connectivity to the rest of your house. That sounds like a "you" problem, not a "me" problem. If "you" are setting up smart devices where "you" don't have connectivity, "you" should provide the connectivity, not "me". (Note: I don't have a problem with devices piggy backing on/extending their owner's network). TFA mentions possible issues with FTC and TOS violations with customers' ISPs. But what about overages? Who's liable for those? Is there going to be a metered breakdown of network usage? Will AMZN cover costs of overages due to neighbor usage? What about potential liability issues? Infosec issues? This just sounds like a too easy setup for a class action lawsuit.
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    I agree. And what, you're gonna rely on some neighbor's AMZN device proxying the internet for you? I hope the availability of that "smart" sensor or whatever isn't too important.
    - Spivak 5y ago
      It’s not an Internet proxy. There is so much misinformation about this it’s nuts. It’s a network to talk to AWS IoT API. It’s not giving random devices access to your network.
amelius 5y ago
Can't we have a strong consumer organization which can actually enforce that companies are not building stuff that works against the consumer?
aplorbust 5y ago
Do the parents understand that spying on people is how the industry makes money? Surely, "the industry" would not spy on people without a "business" reason. There seeems to be a belief by every participant in "the industry" that they must learn things about users and they should not always have to ask permission to gather such information. Sometimes people on HN try to analogise to something like a retail industry where a customer can be observed through their purchases. However there is a major difference. The purchase. That is the ultimate goal of the retailer attained. A purchase. The retail business is not some honeypot to gather information on people. It is trying to make sales. Users of "free" internet-connected products and services generally do not make purchases from the provider of those products/services. They are not fulfilling the goal of the business: to make money. Thus, the company must find paying customers somewhere else. Particularly amusing is the oft-used "justification" of [we spy on you] "to make our ["free"] products and services better." Sometimes participants in "the industry" suggest they are trying to make products and services better for users. Other times it less clear exactly who the improvements are (purportedly) intended to benefit. Of course the ultimate goal, because this "industry" of spying is considered by them as a "business", is to make things better for paying customers. If they fail to collect information from users, they do not make money and the "business" fails. Even non-profits supported by deals with advertising companies feel compelled to conduct "telemetry". Not learning about users is deemed unacceptable. "Spy or die".
unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
Missed a step in that opt-out how-to: 1. Install Alexa App on phone. Why can't I disable this 'account setting' from the Amazon web portal. Plus, if I mistrust Amazon's repurposing of devices, why would I want an Alexa app installed to potentially repurpose my phone? Funnily enough, Sidewalk was just one of 3 surprising anti-security/anti-privacy settings available only in the app.
- aplorbust 5y ago
  "Why would I want an Alexa app installed to potentially repurpose my phone?" You wouldn't. However if you were ambivalent and did not care one way or the other, or unaware of the change, then of course you would not bother to opt-out. This is no doubt Amazon's strategy. And when you opt-out you are forced to install an app that may well have worse consequences than Sidewalk. This strategy, so often used by "tech" companies, seems to take inspiration from direct mail.1 I have a well-educated friend who, many years ago, found himself working for a direct mail company early in his career. He did not stay long. The people he worked for sounded like dregs, and I think he had a crisis of conscience. Today, ethical standards seem to have fallen. Interesting how the word "hustle", as in "side hustle", has been repurposed by young people as something supposedly respectable. Usually that word implies some sort of con or other underhanded activity.2 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_mail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_mail 2. echo -e 'DEFINE all hustle\nQUIT\n'|nc -vvn 199.48.130.6 2628|tr -cd '\12\40-\176'|less
  - pasabagi 5y ago
    > "side hustle", has been repurposed by young people as something supposedly respectable I think it's more redefined as something necessary, as the number of good jobs for young people have been on a continuous downward trend for decades all over the world.
malwarebytess 5y ago
> what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? A busybody, myopic, minor corporate executive wanting to implement a known technique for more career growth. (See Comcast, Apple, et al.)
bambax 5y ago
> what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? To that I ask: what problem does Alexa solve?? Why does one need a device to switch the lights?!? or turn music on or off. How much is one willing to pay for a minuscule, incremental particle of convenience. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Alexa users only have themselves to blame.
- stedaniels 5y ago
  Whole house music for me. Assisted living for many. For both of these it's the ease and affordability that it brings.
schmappel 5y ago
Thanks for the opt-out link. Weirdly, step 3 is missing, there's no Amazon Sidewalk link in my app.
underseacables 5y ago
Product managers do understand, and they do recognize, but they are not making the decisions, and they are powerless to do anything about it. Like any major company, when employee doesn’t want to do something, they will find someone who will.

philsnow 5y ago

> what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? Bad connectivity experiences for Ring users? I wrote my guess elsewhere in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27358758 tl;dr Amazon will resell access to Sidewalk to device manufacturers, allowing them to cost-effectively bridge the "telemetry gap".

wearywanderer 5y ago
No bones about it, this is Amazon's response to > If you don't want your smart tv to spy on you, then don't give it your wifi password.
- teknopaul 5y ago
  How's does it stand legally stealing people's Internet connection and selling it to people who don't have the password.
  - prepend 5y ago
    Legally, every Amazon device user agreed to a TOS that lets Amazon do whatever they want and change at any time. So we’re kind of lucky they at least announced it as they could have just turned it on and opted everyone in.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    Point this logic at the Tile network or Apple’s FindMy network. Does it still work?
- twoWhlsGud 5y ago
  "the street finds its own uses for things" (Gibson) is rapidly becoming "the wall street finds its own uses for things"
stingrae 5y ago
100% this. as a device maker, sidewalk is a potential game changer for low power connectivity and finally a path to lorawan finding wide spread adoption
- Taniwha 5y ago
  except that, unlike ble, lora lives on bands that are not the same world wide - there is no region 3 ISM band - here in NZ the US ISM band is right in the middle of one of my cell phone company's bands
  - stingrae 5y ago
    this is true but in practice it's not a big deal. Companies don't usually do a single sku for the whole world especially with the certification requirements.
    - Taniwha 5y ago
      I (pre-covid) visit the US a lot and often bring stuff back. I'm used to turning off/switching the US-DECT/etc when required but in this case Amazon has snuck extra functionality into my home without my knowledge. Of course when the radio inspector comes knocking on my door because Amazon has loaded the wrong firmware into my box (without my knowledge) it's me who's breaking the law, not Amazon
      - stingrae 5y ago
        this is already the case. certifications for 2.4GHz and 5GHz WiFi have different requirements between the US and EU. Often in the EU companies have to lower the peak power.
- duped 5y ago
  I don't like the idea of my neighbors piggybacking off my data and power hookups. Why aren't device manufactures figuring out how to make things that don't require something like sidewalk to exist? It's not that difficult to run cable and use power over ethernet.

criley2 5y ago

It's the same thing Apple is doing. They want every device to be a part of a low-power BLE network for Apple AirTags or Amazon Echo Tiles or whatever they are. They want a huge network so that these small low power devices can use everyones devices to connect to the internet. For what it's worth, the only way to Opt-Out from Apple's broad network like this is to disable all "Find My" network tracking, so you'll never be able to remote control your own phone using its standard radios if you wish to disable the tag network stuff.

Scoundreller 5y ago
To be honest, I find these ad hoc mobile mesh networks fascinating. With cheap flash, we could do a lot of high-latency high-bandwidth data transport with just existing movements. We could eliminate telecoms overnight but we just don’t have the organization to do it. Like, every house used to have a VHF/UHF receiving tower on it.
- FredPret 5y ago
  A content “delivery” network running on human movements. Now that’d be an interesting routing problem.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    Hah. Well, humans have easily predictable movement patterns right? Home, work, grocery store. Imagine wanting to move data from city A to city B, so they'd decide to do a Tinder match of a girl from City B to this guy from City A, so he'd visit her a lot and be the data conduit...
    - debo_ 5y ago
      This is a terrific idea for a short story.
      - fapjacks 5y ago

nanidin 5y ago

Every time this Sidewalk concern style story crops up (which it has several times over the last 6-12 months), I have rechecked that Sidewalk is disabled. So far I have not found it set to anything except for disabled. I hope Amazon isn’t doing a gradual roll out to enable, as if I find it enabled at any point in the future, I am done with Amazon devices in my home. As far as I’m concerned based on Amazon Logistics performance in my area and the impact to the quality of other delivery carriers in my area, Amazon is not afraid to engage in a race to the bottom in the name of market share and profits. Opting me in to Sidewalk will be the straw that breaks the camel’s back and sends me to anyone else except for Amazon when shopping.

remarkEon 5y ago
I bought my mom an Echo for Christmas last year for the kitchen, since she likes making lists and setting timers for baking and her hands are starting to show their age (she’s 63, ‘bout that time I guess). Really grating that what was at one time a helpful device for older folks is now retroactively being turned into yet another internet surveillance device.
- ryanianian 5y ago
  > retroactively being turned into yet another internet surveillance device. Oh, and an ad-delivery mechanism. Ask Alexa to set a timer, and sometimes she'll rebut with "while you wait why not try Amazon Music!" It's absolutely infuriating. I emailed jeff@amazon.com (VIP support team) and they confirmed it could not be disabled by normal means. They disabled it on their end but then had to do it again when somehow it got unset. The "start with the customer and work backward" mantra that used to be strong in the company is now completely ignored for Alexa it seems. The first domino has fallen. I suspect we'll see many more fall as a result.
  - prawn 5y ago
    I have never heard anything like an ad on my Echo. If I ask it to set a timer, it does, and then sounds the alarm x minutes later. Nothing else. If the kids ask it to play a song, it plays that song. If they ask it for an animal fact, they get one. Nothing else. Did I toggle something at setup?

deanCommie 5y ago

"extend the low-bandwidth working range of devices to help find pets or valuables with Tile trackers, and help devices stay online even if they are outside the range of their home wifi" Seems like a genuine customer problem. If you want to set up smart lights through your back yard, or a smart sensor at the edge of your driver, they might not have WiFi connectivity to the rest of your house. Hence the Sidewalk metaphor - a mesh network allows the devices to hop access from one another. There is also a pretty detailed Privacy/Security Whitepaper and it's important to point out this before any alarmist "Amazon is spying on you!" pearl clutching: https://m.media-amazon.com/images/G/01/sidewalk/final_privacy_security_whitepaper.pdf https://m.media-amazon.com/images/G/01/sidewalk/final_privac...

hermitdev 5y ago
> Seems like a genuine customer problem. If you want to set up smart lights through your back yard, or a smart sensor at the edge of your driver, they might not have WiFi connectivity to the rest of your house. That sounds like a "you" problem, not a "me" problem. If "you" are setting up smart devices where "you" don't have connectivity, "you" should provide the connectivity, not "me". (Note: I don't have a problem with devices piggy backing on/extending their owner's network). TFA mentions possible issues with FTC and TOS violations with customers' ISPs. But what about overages? Who's liable for those? Is there going to be a metered breakdown of network usage? Will AMZN cover costs of overages due to neighbor usage? What about potential liability issues? Infosec issues? This just sounds like a too easy setup for a class action lawsuit.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  I agree. And what, you're gonna rely on some neighbor's AMZN device proxying the internet for you? I hope the availability of that "smart" sensor or whatever isn't too important.
  - Spivak 5y ago
    It’s not an Internet proxy. There is so much misinformation about this it’s nuts. It’s a network to talk to AWS IoT API. It’s not giving random devices access to your network.

amelius 5y ago

Can't we have a strong consumer organization which can actually enforce that companies are not building stuff that works against the consumer?

aplorbust 5y ago

Do the parents understand that spying on people is how the industry makes money? Surely, "the industry" would not spy on people without a "business" reason. There seeems to be a belief by every participant in "the industry" that they must learn things about users and they should not always have to ask permission to gather such information. Sometimes people on HN try to analogise to something like a retail industry where a customer can be observed through their purchases. However there is a major difference. The purchase. That is the ultimate goal of the retailer attained. A purchase. The retail business is not some honeypot to gather information on people. It is trying to make sales. Users of "free" internet-connected products and services generally do not make purchases from the provider of those products/services. They are not fulfilling the goal of the business: to make money. Thus, the company must find paying customers somewhere else. Particularly amusing is the oft-used "justification" of [we spy on you] "to make our ["free"] products and services better." Sometimes participants in "the industry" suggest they are trying to make products and services better for users. Other times it less clear exactly who the improvements are (purportedly) intended to benefit. Of course the ultimate goal, because this "industry" of spying is considered by them as a "business", is to make things better for paying customers. If they fail to collect information from users, they do not make money and the "business" fails. Even non-profits supported by deals with advertising companies feel compelled to conduct "telemetry". Not learning about users is deemed unacceptable. "Spy or die".

unyttigfjelltol 5y ago

Missed a step in that opt-out how-to: 1. Install Alexa App on phone. Why can't I disable this 'account setting' from the Amazon web portal. Plus, if I mistrust Amazon's repurposing of devices, why would I want an Alexa app installed to potentially repurpose my phone? Funnily enough, Sidewalk was just one of 3 surprising anti-security/anti-privacy settings available only in the app.

aplorbust 5y ago
"Why would I want an Alexa app installed to potentially repurpose my phone?" You wouldn't. However if you were ambivalent and did not care one way or the other, or unaware of the change, then of course you would not bother to opt-out. This is no doubt Amazon's strategy. And when you opt-out you are forced to install an app that may well have worse consequences than Sidewalk. This strategy, so often used by "tech" companies, seems to take inspiration from direct mail.1 I have a well-educated friend who, many years ago, found himself working for a direct mail company early in his career. He did not stay long. The people he worked for sounded like dregs, and I think he had a crisis of conscience. Today, ethical standards seem to have fallen. Interesting how the word "hustle", as in "side hustle", has been repurposed by young people as something supposedly respectable. Usually that word implies some sort of con or other underhanded activity.2 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_mail https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_mail 2. echo -e 'DEFINE all hustle\nQUIT\n'|nc -vvn 199.48.130.6 2628|tr -cd '\12\40-\176'|less
- pasabagi 5y ago
  > "side hustle", has been repurposed by young people as something supposedly respectable I think it's more redefined as something necessary, as the number of good jobs for young people have been on a continuous downward trend for decades all over the world.

malwarebytess 5y ago

> what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? A busybody, myopic, minor corporate executive wanting to implement a known technique for more career growth. (See Comcast, Apple, et al.)

bambax 5y ago

> what problem does Amazon thinks this solves? To that I ask: what problem does Alexa solve?? Why does one need a device to switch the lights?!? or turn music on or off. How much is one willing to pay for a minuscule, incremental particle of convenience. This may be an unpopular opinion, but I think Alexa users only have themselves to blame.

stedaniels 5y ago
Whole house music for me. Assisted living for many. For both of these it's the ease and affordability that it brings.

schmappel 5y ago

Thanks for the opt-out link. Weirdly, step 3 is missing, there's no Amazon Sidewalk link in my app.

underseacables 5y ago

Product managers do understand, and they do recognize, but they are not making the decisions, and they are powerless to do anything about it. Like any major company, when employee doesn’t want to do something, they will find someone who will.