10 ms·

Whenever I read articles like this, I get more and more horrified. I mean, I know that adtech spy on us a lot, but I didn't knew for example that using Bluetoo

Whenever I read articles like this, I get more and more horrified. I mean, I know that adtech spy on us a lot, but I didn't knew for example that using Bluetooth while the app is shut down was possible. Makes me very wary even of dumbphones, for example I bought a dumbphone recently, and yet it came with Facebook and Google Assistant both pre-installed.

jraph 5y ago
if it has facebook and google assistant, isn't it really an (Android) smartphone which looks like a dumb phone?
- speeder 5y ago
  It was KaiOS actually, that is based on FirefoxOS. Unfortunately they went so hard on dumbphone specs that it ran poorly, kept crashing all the time because it kept running out of ram. (it had 256mb of RAM I believe, or 128, don't remember, one of the two).
- thekyle 5y ago
  It could be running KaiOS which is the 3rd most popular mobile phone OS, but not quite as functional as Android or iOS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS
- rjsw 5y ago
  Newer Nokia/HMD dumb phones come with a Facebook app, they are not running Android.
cm2187 5y ago
I thought it is precisely because it wasn’t possible that contact tracing required a special API
chrisseaton 5y ago
> I didn't knew for example that using Bluetooth while the app is shut down was possible How did you think for example notifications were pushed to Bluetooth smart watches?
- DangitBobby 5y ago
  You are assuming they were aware of that capability.
  - pbhjpbhj 5y ago
    Not OP: I have a fit band but it only gets notifications if Bluetooth is on. I'd be (ie, I am) surprised to find you couldn't turn Bluetooth off and that they purposefully provide a switch that doesn't work so they can fool you to thinking you can turn it off. Presumably only Android works like this?
- esrauch 5y ago
  I would have assumed there is an os notifications api, and the apps have no idea what surface the notification will be shown on.
realusername 5y ago
There's a reason everybody wants you to install their app instead of just using their website, there's much more opportunity of tracking.
- esrauch 5y ago
  There's several reasons why everyone wants you to install the app, some of which aren't sketchy.
  - jfengel 5y ago
    Seriously, what are they? Every time I get pointed at an app, I can only think of https://xkcd.com/1174/ https://xkcd.com/1174/
    - toast0 5y ago
      Many (most?) apps don't do it, but the useful feature for me that's not possible with a web page is reliable, unobtrusive, background updates. Things like weather (with or without current coarse location), sports scores, headline news benefit from up to the minute data fetches, but older data is still useful. For communication apps, often people would like notifications on inbound messages, so that can fit with web push apis to get data; but if you don't want notifications, you can't consistently make messages available to read offline.
    - mrtksn 5y ago
      A few out of my head: 1) Shortcut on the homescreen by simply tapping 1 button(install) instead of hoping that the user will somehow remember you. WebApp shortcuts are quite involved. 2) Sign in once with a forever session. I hate apps where I need to sign in again because having an App is a great opportunity to have one time sign in that runs through generations of phone upgrades. Even better, the sign in doesn't have to involve the user, the data will be there and not accidentally deleted which means that the presence of the app is as good as username and password. 3) Immersive experience means better user experience. The UI becomes part of the Phone's UI instead of another App's UI's sub UI. A well designed app is very effective. I haven't seen a well designed mobile Web App, Web is great for websites and "possible to do" Mobile Web Apps. 4) Smaller download sizes, faster launches. A website would usually download a few MB of scripts and images, an App without bloated frameworks would be easily around that size and will download it only once. It will be ready to use in less than 0.5s every time. 5) Any advanced stuff is done much better natively even if it is possible to do through the browser. This is because the browser put extra boundaries around the boundaries that has due to the OS boundaries.
danaris 5y ago
Get an iPhone. Whatever else you may think of them, Apple is deliberately working to prevent this sort of crap from happening without your knowledge and consent.
- nahkoots 5y ago
  They've also taken a hardline stance against right to repair, which is a deal breaker for a lot of HN. Unfortunately, there aren't many modern options for people who care about both owning their devices and not being spied on by them.
  - danaris 5y ago
    Which is why I buy Apple: I may, on rare occasions, want the ability to mess with my device, but I always want privacy.
  - jjtheblunt 5y ago
    > for a lot of HN I wonder what fraction
  - laurent92 5y ago
    The right to repair is also the right to steal, refurbish the stolen good and resell. Maybe that is how Apple squashed the theft market for Apple products, but no-one is afraid on the street anymore of holding their iPhone carelessly.
  - GeekyBear 5y ago
    >They've also taken a hardline stance against right to repair By which you mean Google, Microsoft and Apple? >Apple, Google & Microsoft Have Teamed up to Block the Right-to-Repair Law https://wccftech.com/apple-google-microsoft-team-up-to-stop-right-to-repair-law/ https://wccftech.com/apple-google-microsoft-team-up-to-stop-...
    - canadianfella 5y ago
      “They” isn’t a synonym for “they and only they”.
29083011397778 5y ago
> I mean, I know that adtech spy on us a lot, but I didn't knew for example that using Bluetooth while the app is shut down was possible. And now that so many of us leave BT on all the time for our BT earbuds and airpods, I'd assume it's become better at tracking, not worse
dillondoyle 5y ago
On the other side though Google uses this stuff, also wifi hotspots, to track you as well. Whatever the opinion on tracking, Google definitely carves out their own moats and are hypocritical in a lot of respects. Arguably pushing changes to hurt their small competition given they have better/more pervasive personalized tracking without the low hanging fruit.
canadianfella 5y ago
*know
grishka 5y ago
> I didn't knew for example that using Bluetooth while the app is shut down was possible. On modern Android versions, there's some serious limitations on apps running in the background at all. In most cases, if you want your app to run in the background, you gotta put up a notification that is displayed the whole time that background service is running. Oh and also. Scanning for bluetooth devices is a fairly battery-consuming activity as far as I can tell.
fsflover 5y ago
> Whenever I read articles like this, I get more and more horrified. > Makes me very wary even of dumbphones If you care about it, consider GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone, which run FLOSS and have hardware kill switches for microphone and other things.
- speeder 5y ago
  Last time I checked, these phones are not allowed in my country. In my country all phones must have permission from the government to operate, and the phone manufacturer that need to ask this permission in first place, any phone detected by cell towers that aren't one of them, can be legally banned from the network (not just YOUR phone, but all identical model phones!)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- jbaber 5y ago
  Waiting for MMS support, my friend.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    https://forums.puri.sm/t/state-of-mms-on-librem-5/11809/114 https://forums.puri.sm/t/state-of-mms-on-librem-5/11809/114
- na85 5y ago
  >If you care about it, consider GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone, which run FLOSS and have hardware kill switches for microphone and other things. Last time I checked in with the Librem project, the phone was completely unusable as a phone because the power management and in particular the sleep mode wasn't working properly. Sometimes the phone would wake up from sleep, and since the power management was buggy it would blow through the entire battery charge in an hour. So essentially you'd need a backup phone for your Librem 5 because you never know if it'll be dead when you need to call 911.
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
Some years ago, I questioned those sort of pre-installations on smartphones of Facebook and G-whatever on HN. I got some reply that this is what users wanted. Total nonsense. At that time, most people who bought these computers had zero familiarity with these things. Anyway, users were never asked. There is no opt-out. There is a long history of pre-installed crapware on computers. It predates "smartphones" and "apps". Resistance from computer purchasers today seems nearly non-existant. Not too long ago, we used to remove this stuff after purchasing a new computer, e.g., a laptop.
- qualudeheart 5y ago
  Custumors need to be taught agency to avoid this stuff. How can we teach it to them?
  - 1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
    Perhaps it is not customers that need to be taught something but developers that need to be taught something.
mortehu 5y ago
Bluetooth scanning is actually considered a location privilege on Android already. You see lots of angry reviews on apps for accessing Bluetooth devices saying "this app has no business accessing my location", not realizing the contradiction. Maybe they're breaking it out to avoid this confusion?
swiley 5y ago
You have to go full FOSS and run debian on a pinephone.

jraph 5y ago

if it has facebook and google assistant, isn't it really an (Android) smartphone which looks like a dumb phone?

speeder 5y ago
It was KaiOS actually, that is based on FirefoxOS. Unfortunately they went so hard on dumbphone specs that it ran poorly, kept crashing all the time because it kept running out of ram. (it had 256mb of RAM I believe, or 128, don't remember, one of the two).
thekyle 5y ago
It could be running KaiOS which is the 3rd most popular mobile phone OS, but not quite as functional as Android or iOS. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS
rjsw 5y ago
Newer Nokia/HMD dumb phones come with a Facebook app, they are not running Android.

cm2187 5y ago

I thought it is precisely because it wasn’t possible that contact tracing required a special API

chrisseaton 5y ago

> I didn't knew for example that using Bluetooth while the app is shut down was possible How did you think for example notifications were pushed to Bluetooth smart watches?

DangitBobby 5y ago
You are assuming they were aware of that capability.
- pbhjpbhj 5y ago
  Not OP: I have a fit band but it only gets notifications if Bluetooth is on. I'd be (ie, I am) surprised to find you couldn't turn Bluetooth off and that they purposefully provide a switch that doesn't work so they can fool you to thinking you can turn it off. Presumably only Android works like this?
esrauch 5y ago
I would have assumed there is an os notifications api, and the apps have no idea what surface the notification will be shown on.

realusername 5y ago

There's a reason everybody wants you to install their app instead of just using their website, there's much more opportunity of tracking.

esrauch 5y ago
There's several reasons why everyone wants you to install the app, some of which aren't sketchy.
- jfengel 5y ago
  Seriously, what are they? Every time I get pointed at an app, I can only think of https://xkcd.com/1174/ https://xkcd.com/1174/
  - toast0 5y ago
    Many (most?) apps don't do it, but the useful feature for me that's not possible with a web page is reliable, unobtrusive, background updates. Things like weather (with or without current coarse location), sports scores, headline news benefit from up to the minute data fetches, but older data is still useful. For communication apps, often people would like notifications on inbound messages, so that can fit with web push apis to get data; but if you don't want notifications, you can't consistently make messages available to read offline.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    A few out of my head: 1) Shortcut on the homescreen by simply tapping 1 button(install) instead of hoping that the user will somehow remember you. WebApp shortcuts are quite involved. 2) Sign in once with a forever session. I hate apps where I need to sign in again because having an App is a great opportunity to have one time sign in that runs through generations of phone upgrades. Even better, the sign in doesn't have to involve the user, the data will be there and not accidentally deleted which means that the presence of the app is as good as username and password. 3) Immersive experience means better user experience. The UI becomes part of the Phone's UI instead of another App's UI's sub UI. A well designed app is very effective. I haven't seen a well designed mobile Web App, Web is great for websites and "possible to do" Mobile Web Apps. 4) Smaller download sizes, faster launches. A website would usually download a few MB of scripts and images, an App without bloated frameworks would be easily around that size and will download it only once. It will be ready to use in less than 0.5s every time. 5) Any advanced stuff is done much better natively even if it is possible to do through the browser. This is because the browser put extra boundaries around the boundaries that has due to the OS boundaries.

danaris 5y ago

Get an iPhone. Whatever else you may think of them, Apple is deliberately working to prevent this sort of crap from happening without your knowledge and consent.

nahkoots 5y ago
They've also taken a hardline stance against right to repair, which is a deal breaker for a lot of HN. Unfortunately, there aren't many modern options for people who care about both owning their devices and not being spied on by them.
- danaris 5y ago
  Which is why I buy Apple: I may, on rare occasions, want the ability to mess with my device, but I always want privacy.
- jjtheblunt 5y ago
  > for a lot of HN I wonder what fraction
- laurent92 5y ago
  The right to repair is also the right to steal, refurbish the stolen good and resell. Maybe that is how Apple squashed the theft market for Apple products, but no-one is afraid on the street anymore of holding their iPhone carelessly.
- GeekyBear 5y ago
  >They've also taken a hardline stance against right to repair By which you mean Google, Microsoft and Apple? >Apple, Google & Microsoft Have Teamed up to Block the Right-to-Repair Law https://wccftech.com/apple-google-microsoft-team-up-to-stop-right-to-repair-law/ https://wccftech.com/apple-google-microsoft-team-up-to-stop-...
  - canadianfella 5y ago
    “They” isn’t a synonym for “they and only they”.

29083011397778 5y ago

> I mean, I know that adtech spy on us a lot, but I didn't knew for example that using Bluetooth while the app is shut down was possible. And now that so many of us leave BT on all the time for our BT earbuds and airpods, I'd assume it's become better at tracking, not worse

dillondoyle 5y ago

On the other side though Google uses this stuff, also wifi hotspots, to track you as well. Whatever the opinion on tracking, Google definitely carves out their own moats and are hypocritical in a lot of respects. Arguably pushing changes to hurt their small competition given they have better/more pervasive personalized tracking without the low hanging fruit.

canadianfella 5y ago

*know

grishka 5y ago

> I didn't knew for example that using Bluetooth while the app is shut down was possible. On modern Android versions, there's some serious limitations on apps running in the background at all. In most cases, if you want your app to run in the background, you gotta put up a notification that is displayed the whole time that background service is running. Oh and also. Scanning for bluetooth devices is a fairly battery-consuming activity as far as I can tell.

fsflover 5y ago

> Whenever I read articles like this, I get more and more horrified. > Makes me very wary even of dumbphones If you care about it, consider GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone, which run FLOSS and have hardware kill switches for microphone and other things.

speeder 5y ago
Last time I checked, these phones are not allowed in my country. In my country all phones must have permission from the government to operate, and the phone manufacturer that need to ask this permission in first place, any phone detected by cell towers that aren't one of them, can be legally banned from the network (not just YOUR phone, but all identical model phones!)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jbaber 5y ago
Waiting for MMS support, my friend.
- fsflover 5y ago
  https://forums.puri.sm/t/state-of-mms-on-librem-5/11809/114 https://forums.puri.sm/t/state-of-mms-on-librem-5/11809/114
na85 5y ago
>If you care about it, consider GNU/Linux phones, Librem 5 and Pinephone, which run FLOSS and have hardware kill switches for microphone and other things. Last time I checked in with the Librem project, the phone was completely unusable as a phone because the power management and in particular the sleep mode wasn't working properly. Sometimes the phone would wake up from sleep, and since the power management was buggy it would blow through the entire battery charge in an hour. So essentially you'd need a backup phone for your Librem 5 because you never know if it'll be dead when you need to call 911.

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

Some years ago, I questioned those sort of pre-installations on smartphones of Facebook and G-whatever on HN. I got some reply that this is what users wanted. Total nonsense. At that time, most people who bought these computers had zero familiarity with these things. Anyway, users were never asked. There is no opt-out. There is a long history of pre-installed crapware on computers. It predates "smartphones" and "apps". Resistance from computer purchasers today seems nearly non-existant. Not too long ago, we used to remove this stuff after purchasing a new computer, e.g., a laptop.

qualudeheart 5y ago
Custumors need to be taught agency to avoid this stuff. How can we teach it to them?
- 1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
  Perhaps it is not customers that need to be taught something but developers that need to be taught something.

mortehu 5y ago

Bluetooth scanning is actually considered a location privilege on Android already. You see lots of angry reviews on apps for accessing Bluetooth devices saying "this app has no business accessing my location", not realizing the contradiction. Maybe they're breaking it out to avoid this confusion?

swiley 5y ago

You have to go full FOSS and run debian on a pinephone.