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I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technolog

I'm having trouble figuring out if this is just another battle in Elon's War with Regulators, if this is NHTSA being too slow to keep up with evolving technology, or if Teslas without radar are actually worse, deserving the loss of these designations. Or what the mix is of all three of those things, I guess.

dragontamer 5y ago
There's all sorts of rumors for why Elon / Tesla is doing this. The most probable rumor IMO is that the chip-shortage has hit the Tesla radar especially hard. Instead of idling plants (like other automakers https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plant-due-global-chip-shortage https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plan...), Tesla decided to cut out the radar entirely. That means cars can be produced, and sold, without these radars / chips.
- bpodgursky 5y ago
  Tesla has been pushing camera-only autonomous driving (ditching LIDAR) since well before the chip shortage. I would assume this is part of the same drive.
  - _Microft 5y ago
    Tesla did not ditch LIDAR, they never actually used it (not in production cars at least?).
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    Tesla is ditching radar, not lidar.
  - chronic83027 5y ago
    As of May 2021, Tesla publicly announced they’re using lidar to develop FSD. https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/24/22451404/tesla-luminar-lidar-elon-musk-autonomous-vehicles https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/24/22451404/tesla-luminar-li...
    - _Microft 5y ago
      This might be for improving their camera-based vision system by collecting both camera inputs and accurate ground-truth data via LIDAR to train the system with.
    - rjsamson 5y ago
      They haven’t announced anything like that - they’re just using LiDAR rigs to validate data from their vision based approach, particularly distance. It actually even mentions something about it at the bottom of the article you referenced.
      - chronic83027 5y ago
        My claim: > they’re using lidar to develop FSD. Your comment: > they’re just using LiDAR rigs to validate data from their vision based approach In 2019, Elon called lidar a crutch: https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is-doomed-elon-musk-says/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is...
    - MetaWhirledPeas 5y ago
      No public announcement. They merely have some lidar equipment for testing. I'd be shocked if they haven't already had lidar units for years. After all, you can't compare your approach to lidar if you don't have a lidar unit to compare to.
  - dragontamer 5y ago
    https://web.archive.org/web/20210312022048/https://www.tesla.com/blog/upgrading-autopilot-seeing-world-radar https://web.archive.org/web/20210312022048/https://www.tesla... I'm pulling this from archive.org, because Tesla has removed this blogpost from their servers. As recently as March, they kept this pro-Radar blogpost up. Only now are they purging this data from their archives. Fortunately, the Internet Archive remembers the history, so they won't find it so easy to rewrite history in their favor.
    - jacquesm 5y ago
      Pretty sure they can have it wiped from the archive as well so if you want to hold on to it better do it somewhere else.
    - bpodgursky 5y ago
      That post is from 2016. From an engineering blog. Do you really expect, or even want, companies to go back and purge all old engineering blogs which they now disagree with? By calling out an old post as evidence that they are "pro-lidar", you're the one forcing companies to try to curate the public history of their development process. That's not healthy. Don't do that.
      - camjohnson26 5y ago
        It’s radar, not lidar, and the point is that Tesla thought the post was contradictory enough to remove it, while all the other content from 2016 is still there.
    - camjohnson26 5y ago
      That seems incredibly blatant, given that all the other posts from 2016 are still available.
    - stoddur 5y ago
      You meant March 2016? I would not call that recent in the self-driving vehicle world
- zests 5y ago
  This is the kind of shenanigans that a software company would pull. On the surface it seems like a great business decision from Tesla.
tobyjsullivan 5y ago
My read is it's just the NHTSA not granting a certification for things it hasn't tested. Ie, "forward collision warning, lane departure warning, crash imminent braking and dynamic brake support" without radar. Tesla will release the new versions (if they haven't already), the NHTSA will test the new models, and they'll grant the "check marks" again. In other words, it's non-news (unless you happen to be planning to buy a Tesla this week).
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  > Tesla will release the new versions (if they haven't already), the NHTSA will test the new models, and they'll grant the "check marks" again. Shouldn't this operate in the other direction? Vehicle manufacturer supplies model for testing, regulator either approves it gives manufacturer opportunity to fix then retest?
  - malwarebytess 5y ago
    Pretty sure it's not a requirement for vehicles to have these safety features to go to market. So from Tesla's perspective this is better that delaying their product that they think is equivalent (though in my mind they're taking a risk.)
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
      I see, thanks.
- ocdtrekkie 5y ago
  Bear in mind, there are safety features actually being dropped for this change: https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision "Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance may be disabled at delivery"
akmarinov 5y ago
Well they’re not removing radar on 3/Y in Europe…
PragmaticPulp 5y ago
NHTSA tested Tesla cars that had radar modules. Tesla has decided to remove the radar modules and use only vision systems. The new vision-only models are not NHTSA certified yet, so the NHTSA had to clarify that the safety certification only applies to vehicles shipped before the vision-only transition. That is, any vehicle with radar is still certified, but the new vehicles will apparently ship untested.
- nradov 5y ago
  And it is possible to meet NHTSA certification requirements for recommended safety technology with vision-only systems. Subaru has done that for years.
  - harles 5y ago
    Doesn’t Subaru use stereo vision though? Having depth cues and not having them seems like a pretty big distinction, and Tesla just removed their only source of depth.
    - bradfitz 5y ago
      Tesla has multiple cameras on the front. See: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36542541/tesla-model-3-model-y-pure-vision/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36542541/tesla-model-3-mo...
      - harles 5y ago
        Multiple cameras don’t equate to stereo though. As I understand it, the Tesla cameras have too little overlap and the distortion is too great to do proper stereo - it’s 100% monocular depth estimation.
      - snypher 5y ago
        They don't seem very far apart in the Tesla.. https://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/Tesla-Model-3-front-camera.jpg https://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/Tesla-Mode... The Subaru cameras are either side of the mirror, probably much more effective for stereo vision.
TeMPOraL 5y ago
Despite the occasional media spin, Musk isn't waging a war with regulators (the way some well-known startups are). He had a spat with SEC over his dumb Twitter shenanigans, but other than that, AFAIK, both Tesla and SpaceX are mostly on friendly terms with regulators. In particular, NHTSA ratings were always a strong marketing angle for Tesla.
bpodgursky 5y ago
> The agency said it "only includes check marks for the model production range for the vehicles tested." It seems pretty clear to me that the NHTSA just hasn't tested this version, so it won't certify them.
ffggvv 5y ago
they removed radar because of the chip shortage and now even more people will die from auto kill.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

dragontamer 5y ago

There's all sorts of rumors for why Elon / Tesla is doing this. The most probable rumor IMO is that the chip-shortage has hit the Tesla radar especially hard. Instead of idling plants (like other automakers https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plant-due-global-chip-shortage https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/ford-idles-f-150-plan...), Tesla decided to cut out the radar entirely. That means cars can be produced, and sold, without these radars / chips.

bpodgursky 5y ago
Tesla has been pushing camera-only autonomous driving (ditching LIDAR) since well before the chip shortage. I would assume this is part of the same drive.
- _Microft 5y ago
  Tesla did not ditch LIDAR, they never actually used it (not in production cars at least?).
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  Tesla is ditching radar, not lidar.
- chronic83027 5y ago
  As of May 2021, Tesla publicly announced they’re using lidar to develop FSD. https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/24/22451404/tesla-luminar-lidar-elon-musk-autonomous-vehicles https://www.theverge.com/2021/5/24/22451404/tesla-luminar-li...
  - _Microft 5y ago
    This might be for improving their camera-based vision system by collecting both camera inputs and accurate ground-truth data via LIDAR to train the system with.
  - rjsamson 5y ago
    They haven’t announced anything like that - they’re just using LiDAR rigs to validate data from their vision based approach, particularly distance. It actually even mentions something about it at the bottom of the article you referenced.
    - chronic83027 5y ago
      My claim: > they’re using lidar to develop FSD. Your comment: > they’re just using LiDAR rigs to validate data from their vision based approach In 2019, Elon called lidar a crutch: https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is-doomed-elon-musk-says/ https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/22/anyone-relying-on-lidar-is...
  - MetaWhirledPeas 5y ago
    No public announcement. They merely have some lidar equipment for testing. I'd be shocked if they haven't already had lidar units for years. After all, you can't compare your approach to lidar if you don't have a lidar unit to compare to.
- dragontamer 5y ago
  https://web.archive.org/web/20210312022048/https://www.tesla.com/blog/upgrading-autopilot-seeing-world-radar https://web.archive.org/web/20210312022048/https://www.tesla... I'm pulling this from archive.org, because Tesla has removed this blogpost from their servers. As recently as March, they kept this pro-Radar blogpost up. Only now are they purging this data from their archives. Fortunately, the Internet Archive remembers the history, so they won't find it so easy to rewrite history in their favor.
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    Pretty sure they can have it wiped from the archive as well so if you want to hold on to it better do it somewhere else.
  - bpodgursky 5y ago
    That post is from 2016. From an engineering blog. Do you really expect, or even want, companies to go back and purge all old engineering blogs which they now disagree with? By calling out an old post as evidence that they are "pro-lidar", you're the one forcing companies to try to curate the public history of their development process. That's not healthy. Don't do that.
    - camjohnson26 5y ago
      It’s radar, not lidar, and the point is that Tesla thought the post was contradictory enough to remove it, while all the other content from 2016 is still there.
  - camjohnson26 5y ago
    That seems incredibly blatant, given that all the other posts from 2016 are still available.
  - stoddur 5y ago
    You meant March 2016? I would not call that recent in the self-driving vehicle world
zests 5y ago
This is the kind of shenanigans that a software company would pull. On the surface it seems like a great business decision from Tesla.

tobyjsullivan 5y ago

My read is it's just the NHTSA not granting a certification for things it hasn't tested. Ie, "forward collision warning, lane departure warning, crash imminent braking and dynamic brake support" without radar. Tesla will release the new versions (if they haven't already), the NHTSA will test the new models, and they'll grant the "check marks" again. In other words, it's non-news (unless you happen to be planning to buy a Tesla this week).

TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
> Tesla will release the new versions (if they haven't already), the NHTSA will test the new models, and they'll grant the "check marks" again. Shouldn't this operate in the other direction? Vehicle manufacturer supplies model for testing, regulator either approves it gives manufacturer opportunity to fix then retest?
- malwarebytess 5y ago
  Pretty sure it's not a requirement for vehicles to have these safety features to go to market. So from Tesla's perspective this is better that delaying their product that they think is equivalent (though in my mind they're taking a risk.)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    I see, thanks.
ocdtrekkie 5y ago
Bear in mind, there are safety features actually being dropped for this change: https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision https://www.tesla.com/support/transitioning-tesla-vision "Emergency Lane Departure Avoidance may be disabled at delivery"

akmarinov 5y ago

Well they’re not removing radar on 3/Y in Europe…

PragmaticPulp 5y ago

NHTSA tested Tesla cars that had radar modules. Tesla has decided to remove the radar modules and use only vision systems. The new vision-only models are not NHTSA certified yet, so the NHTSA had to clarify that the safety certification only applies to vehicles shipped before the vision-only transition. That is, any vehicle with radar is still certified, but the new vehicles will apparently ship untested.

nradov 5y ago
And it is possible to meet NHTSA certification requirements for recommended safety technology with vision-only systems. Subaru has done that for years.
- harles 5y ago
  Doesn’t Subaru use stereo vision though? Having depth cues and not having them seems like a pretty big distinction, and Tesla just removed their only source of depth.
  - bradfitz 5y ago
    Tesla has multiple cameras on the front. See: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36542541/tesla-model-3-model-y-pure-vision/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a36542541/tesla-model-3-mo...
    - harles 5y ago
      Multiple cameras don’t equate to stereo though. As I understand it, the Tesla cameras have too little overlap and the distortion is too great to do proper stereo - it’s 100% monocular depth estimation.
    - snypher 5y ago
      They don't seem very far apart in the Tesla.. https://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/Tesla-Model-3-front-camera.jpg https://st.motortrend.com/uploads/sites/5/2017/07/Tesla-Mode... The Subaru cameras are either side of the mirror, probably much more effective for stereo vision.

TeMPOraL 5y ago

Despite the occasional media spin, Musk isn't waging a war with regulators (the way some well-known startups are). He had a spat with SEC over his dumb Twitter shenanigans, but other than that, AFAIK, both Tesla and SpaceX are mostly on friendly terms with regulators. In particular, NHTSA ratings were always a strong marketing angle for Tesla.

bpodgursky 5y ago

> The agency said it "only includes check marks for the model production range for the vehicles tested." It seems pretty clear to me that the NHTSA just hasn't tested this version, so it won't certify them.

ffggvv 5y ago

they removed radar because of the chip shortage and now even more people will die from auto kill.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]