12 ms·

Worth noting in all of this that Belarus recently closed their land borders to citizens [1], under the guise of COVID, but in reality to stop people leaving. Th

by mcky 5y ago

Worth noting in all of this that Belarus recently closed their land borders to citizens [1], under the guise of COVID, but in reality to stop people leaving. The only way out was flying from Minsk, which is now even less of an option if there are no flights to the EU. As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko [1] https://www.bnt.eu/cs/zpravy/pravni-novinky/3137-belarus-introduces-ban-on-leaving-the-country?layout=bnt:news https://www.bnt.eu/cs/zpravy/pravni-novinky/3137-belarus-int...

teekert 5y ago
"As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than the Lukashenko" I feel that that is true for almost all sanctions everywhere sadly. The Russians love their children too. In fact we have to really think hard on who they benefit, short and long term. Making markets more independent of each other is only making a war more likely. If goods don't cross borders armies will. What is a better alternative? I don't know, but perhaps targeted educational pieces, like scientific papers to educate populations? Yeah it sounds like propaganda, but perhaps one can add methods to verify claims or something? Show how exactly a policy is detrimental to the population in question? It's a hard problem, I'm not claiming otherwise.
- BurningFrog 5y ago
  > In fact we have to really think hard on who they benefit It will benefit air travellers whose planes will not get hijacked by the Belarus air force.
  - pavel_lishin 5y ago
    Forbidding non-Belarus based flights from flying over Belarus would accomplish that.
    - _ZeD_ 5y ago
      also treating this "incident" as a war act
      - ridethebike 5y ago
        As a war act? What does it mean in terms of practical steps?
        briandear 5y ago
        Bomb one of their airbases. Russia can annex Crimea with no real response, so why should the EU show restraint? (I am not suggesting a bombing campaign, just a targeted strike on the airbase from which the intercepting fighter jet departed.) What’s Russia going to do? They want that Nord Stream pipeline. They aren’t going to militarily respond over some two bit dictator, even one friendly to Russia. The Nord Stream energy revenue is probably going to be much higher than the entire Belorussian economy.
        pavel_lishin 5y ago
        > why should the EU show restraint? ... to avoid escalating a single incident into a war, which is one of the reasons it exists?
        ridethebike 5y ago
        The closest this scenario can materialize in real life is being printed in one of Tom Clancy's books. Nobody is going to bomb stuff over this. And as much as I like labeling EU toothless [1] - banning Belarusian airlines is proportional and "hawkish" response. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=27263934&goto=item%3Fid%3D27262385%2327263934 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=27263934&goto=item%3Fi...
londons_explore 5y ago
I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market. If you don't like your own system of government, you can move to another. Countries would have an incentive to treat their people well, or see a mass exodus.
- refactor_master 5y ago
  The free market has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to human rights, though. What would countries stand to gain from this, realistically? No country wants economic refugees.
  - axiosgunnar 5y ago
    Why does Germamy willingly accept so many then? Genuinely curious
    - ForHackernews 5y ago
      Either for humanitarian reasons, or because Germany has an ageing population and desperately needs young workers to support its welfare state.
      - hef19898 5y ago
        It is one. The majority of migrants, qualified or not, have a hard time getting work permits. Finding work, low paid but paid, isn't the main challenge. Doesn't do any good if you aren't allowed to take that work so. Also, our social systems are doing well. Thanks for worrying.
        inglor_cz 5y ago
proxysna 5y ago
People (me and friends) reroute their travel through Moscow to get to Minsk now. Annoying but still i believe that this is a right decision from eu side.
- unixhero 5y ago
  That transit in Moscow can be risky to some politically exposed persons.
  - supportlocal4h 5y ago
    As opposed to, say, travelling to Minsk?
  - autosharp 5y ago
    Is it? Who is at risk in Moscow but not in Minsk?
  - proxysna 5y ago
    Yeah, but it is one of the last options that does not involve using buses\trains to get to minsk rn.
  - cnlevy 5y ago
    Russia and Belarus are very close allies. I doubt anyone who is at risk by transiting in Moscow would be safe in Minsk
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      You think Russia would risk having their planes banned all through Europe to give a two bit dictator a reporter?
      - 3np 5y ago
        You think EU would give Russia the same treatment as Belarus?
petre 5y ago
They could still fly to Russia or Ukraine and then cross the land border into an EU country. Maybe Ukraine would follow suit though, they can benefit from better relations with the EU.
- xendo 5y ago
  Ukraine is also planning to ban flights to and from Belarus: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/world/europe/belarus-flight-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/world/europe/belarus-flig...
newacct583 5y ago
> As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko That's true of all sanctions anywhere. It's not fundamentally possible to target "the government" of a nation without targeting the people it governs.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
aslowasugo 5y ago
This sounds suspiciously like North Korea to me. Still crazy how they put that plane down with jets and then escorted the plane out of the county...
- felipelemos 5y ago
  Just a small correction, the plane never left their airspace
amelius 5y ago
> As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko There are simply too many repressed citizens for them to all flee, so allowing some to flee might be just unfair, and also counterproductive because then you are left with only underpriviledged and repressed citizens.

by mcky 5y ago

teekert 5y ago

"As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than the Lukashenko" I feel that that is true for almost all sanctions everywhere sadly. The Russians love their children too. In fact we have to really think hard on who they benefit, short and long term. Making markets more independent of each other is only making a war more likely. If goods don't cross borders armies will. What is a better alternative? I don't know, but perhaps targeted educational pieces, like scientific papers to educate populations? Yeah it sounds like propaganda, but perhaps one can add methods to verify claims or something? Show how exactly a policy is detrimental to the population in question? It's a hard problem, I'm not claiming otherwise.

BurningFrog 5y ago
> In fact we have to really think hard on who they benefit It will benefit air travellers whose planes will not get hijacked by the Belarus air force.
- pavel_lishin 5y ago
  Forbidding non-Belarus based flights from flying over Belarus would accomplish that.
  - _ZeD_ 5y ago
    also treating this "incident" as a war act
    - ridethebike 5y ago
      As a war act? What does it mean in terms of practical steps?
      - briandear 5y ago
        Bomb one of their airbases. Russia can annex Crimea with no real response, so why should the EU show restraint? (I am not suggesting a bombing campaign, just a targeted strike on the airbase from which the intercepting fighter jet departed.) What’s Russia going to do? They want that Nord Stream pipeline. They aren’t going to militarily respond over some two bit dictator, even one friendly to Russia. The Nord Stream energy revenue is probably going to be much higher than the entire Belorussian economy.
        pavel_lishin 5y ago
        > why should the EU show restraint? ... to avoid escalating a single incident into a war, which is one of the reasons it exists?
        ridethebike 5y ago
        The closest this scenario can materialize in real life is being printed in one of Tom Clancy's books. Nobody is going to bomb stuff over this. And as much as I like labeling EU toothless [1] - banning Belarusian airlines is proportional and "hawkish" response. [1] - https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=27263934&goto=item%3Fid%3D27262385%2327263934 https://news.ycombinator.com/reply?id=27263934&goto=item%3Fi...

londons_explore 5y ago

I'd like to see a worldwide agreement that no country will ever stop a citizen from leaving, as long as they have permission to enter another country. Even if the person is in prison or debt, they can always leave with just themselves to another country willing to take them. If all nations agreed to that, we could stop worrying about most other human rights abuses, and country governance becomes more of a free market. If you don't like your own system of government, you can move to another. Countries would have an incentive to treat their people well, or see a mass exodus.

refactor_master 5y ago
The free market has a pretty terrible track record when it comes to human rights, though. What would countries stand to gain from this, realistically? No country wants economic refugees.
- axiosgunnar 5y ago
  Why does Germamy willingly accept so many then? Genuinely curious
  - ForHackernews 5y ago
    Either for humanitarian reasons, or because Germany has an ageing population and desperately needs young workers to support its welfare state.
    - hef19898 5y ago
      It is one. The majority of migrants, qualified or not, have a hard time getting work permits. Finding work, low paid but paid, isn't the main challenge. Doesn't do any good if you aren't allowed to take that work so. Also, our social systems are doing well. Thanks for worrying.
      - inglor_cz 5y ago

proxysna 5y ago

People (me and friends) reroute their travel through Moscow to get to Minsk now. Annoying but still i believe that this is a right decision from eu side.

unixhero 5y ago
That transit in Moscow can be risky to some politically exposed persons.
- supportlocal4h 5y ago
  As opposed to, say, travelling to Minsk?
- autosharp 5y ago
  Is it? Who is at risk in Moscow but not in Minsk?
- proxysna 5y ago
  Yeah, but it is one of the last options that does not involve using buses\trains to get to minsk rn.
- cnlevy 5y ago
  Russia and Belarus are very close allies. I doubt anyone who is at risk by transiting in Moscow would be safe in Minsk
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    You think Russia would risk having their planes banned all through Europe to give a two bit dictator a reporter?
    - 3np 5y ago
      You think EU would give Russia the same treatment as Belarus?

petre 5y ago

They could still fly to Russia or Ukraine and then cross the land border into an EU country. Maybe Ukraine would follow suit though, they can benefit from better relations with the EU.

xendo 5y ago
Ukraine is also planning to ban flights to and from Belarus: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/world/europe/belarus-flight-ban.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/05/24/world/europe/belarus-flig...

newacct583 5y ago

> As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko That's true of all sanctions anywhere. It's not fundamentally possible to target "the government" of a nation without targeting the people it governs.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

aslowasugo 5y ago

This sounds suspiciously like North Korea to me. Still crazy how they put that plane down with jets and then escorted the plane out of the county...

felipelemos 5y ago
Just a small correction, the plane never left their airspace

amelius 5y ago

> As others have said these sanctions will likely do more to harm the repressed citizens of the regime than Lukashenko There are simply too many repressed citizens for them to all flee, so allowing some to flee might be just unfair, and also counterproductive because then you are left with only underpriviledged and repressed citizens.